OU Viability Thread

[BurntZebra]

give it a lum or predict dunno
I had no problems with toxic, although i've been very careful with it

Wouldn't you want to be adamant with it?

[Vaeldras]

Wouldn't you want to be adamant with it?

 

yep. mine is adamant

 

edit: how 2 read

Edited December 23, 2015 by Vaeldras

[KaynineXL]

yep. mine is adamant

He's fucking with you

[Vaeldras]

He's fucking with you

 

oh

 

Careful, adamant.

Right

[Vaeldras]

Ursaring A

 

It kills stuff

 

If it's sent unharmed against chansey (or even better, umbreon) something is likely to die.

Works against pretty much any wall, but it's low speed makes it pretty vulnerable against other sweepers.

Terrifying with a burn on, it's a solid answer to pretty much any wall.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Robofiend]

Ursaring A

 

It kills stuff

 

If it's sent unharmed against chansey (or even better, umbreon) something is likely to die.

Works against pretty much any wall, but it's low speed makes it pretty vulnerable against other sweepers.

Terrifying with a burn on, it's a solid answer to pretty much any wall.

 

it's currently A+, i'd like to hear why it shouldn't stay there 

 

Edit: also LF opinions on Porygon2 and Blaziken

Edited December 24, 2015 by Robofiend

[Vaeldras]

it's currently A+, i'd like to hear why it shouldn't stay there 

 

Edit: also LF opinions on Porygon2 and Blaziken

 

I think old ratings (pre dugtrio) are outdated for certain pokemon (blaziken, dugtrio, rhydon...pretty much anything dugtrio could trap),

It's speed is way too low to give it a purpose against anything that isn't a wall, unless you run a choice band maybe.

It's no sweeper and requires good predictions to work as intended.

Possibly an a+, but i don't feel it should be that close to an S rank when it's worn out so easily.

Both ratings can work i suppose.

[KaynineXL]

I think old ratings (pre dugtrio) are outdated for certain pokemon (blaziken, dugtrio, rhydon...pretty much anything dugtrio could trap),

It's speed is way too low to give it a purpose against anything that isn't a wall, unless you run a choice band maybe.

It's no sweeper and requires good predictions to work as intended.

Possibly an a+, but i don't feel it should be that close to an S rank when it's worn out so easily.

Both ratings can work i suppose.

Disagree, now Dug is gone, it's even safer to come in and do the thing he does best. Wall break.

Edited December 24, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Vaeldras]

Disagree, now Dug is gone, it's even safer to come in and do the thing he does best. Wall break.

 

That was my point, and it's why i gave it an A.

With dugtrio around there's no way ursa can be an A

[KaynineXL]

That was my point, and it's why i gave it an A.

With dugtrio around there's no way ursa can be an A

But he's already A+, why would he decrease?

[Vaeldras]

But he's already A+, why would he decrease?

 

it was a+ before the whole dugtrio business and it's not been discussed since then (pre halloween).

I thought it needed to be re-ranked

[KaynineXL]

it was a+ before the whole dugtrio business and it's not been discussed since then (pre halloween).

I thought it needed to be re-ranked

I just don't understand what changed to make it drop down, except dug which is good for it.

[Vaeldras]

I just don't understand what changed to make it drop down, except dug which is good for it.

 

In negative? nothing at all, i was waiting for dugtrio to get banned to bring it back from box 7 myself.

I think it was wrong to rank it a+ to begin with for the reasons i already explained.

While you have to watch out for something like gyarados (something that can actually sweep your team if you don't teambuild for it) the same could never happen with ursaring since pretty much anything faster that hits hard enough can finish it when it's done it's job.

It's a slow hit and run poke with basically no recovery option and also bound to waste a turn (swords dance) or get statused  to be at it's full potential.

It is by far the best available wallbreaker with access to both swords dance and some very neat coverage (also arguably the best stab), but it's really a bad choice when you're dealing with offensive teams.

At this point i have a question: what criteria do we use to determine wheter or not a poke deserves a "+"?

[Robofiend]

In negative? nothing at all, i was waiting for dugtrio to get banned to bring it back from box 7 myself.

I think it was wrong to rank it a+ to begin with for the reasons i already explained.

 

While you have to watch out for something like gyarados (something that can actually sweep your team if you don't teambuild for it) the same could never happen with ursaring since pretty much anything faster that hits hard enough can finish it when it's done it's job.

 

It's a slow hit and run poke with basically no recovery option and also bound to waste a turn (swords dance) or get statused to be at it's full potential.

 

It is by far the best available wallbreaker with access to both swords dance and some very neat coverage (also arguably the best stab), but it's really a bad choice when you're dealing with offensive teams.

 

At this point i have a question: what criteria do we use to determine wheter or not a poke deserves a "+"?

 

Well we ranked it before Dugtrio became super highly used but didn't move it down once Dugtrio started swarming the meta since I had a feeling it was going to get banned.

 

The original logic is that Ursaring is a physical attacker that 2HKO's pretty much any switch in either by using the right coverage move or getting statused and spamming Facade. Behold the power:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 358-423 (107.1 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-189 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 225-265 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 381-448 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 312-367 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 454-535 (128.6 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

While Ursaring is afraid of Metagross, Gyarados, Heracross and lots of special attackers, it can pretty easily rely on other highly ranked pokemon to sponge attacks from these pokemon and come in later to wear down the opponents team enough so that something like Aerodactyl can sweep uncontested.

 

EDIT: last point is that A rank is reserved for very useful pokemon who perform a role that no other pokemon in the metagame can mimic. There's no substitute for Gyarados or Starmie, for instance, who can do what they do. The +/- distinction is for differentiating between things that are really really good and things that are just good.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Robofiend

[Vaeldras]

 

Well we ranked it before Dugtrio became super highly used but didn't move it down once Dugtrio started swarming the meta since I had a feeling it was going to get banned.

 

The original logic is that Ursaring is a physical attacker that 2HKO's pretty much any switch in either by using the right coverage move or getting statused and spamming Facade. Behold the power:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 358-423 (107.1 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-189 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 225-265 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 381-448 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 312-367 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 454-535 (128.6 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

While Ursaring is afraid of Metagross, Gyarados, Heracross and lots of special attackers, it can pretty easily rely on other highly ranked pokemon to sponge attacks from these pokemon and come in later to wear down the opponents team enough so that something like Aerodactyl can sweep uncontested.

 

EDIT: last point is that A rank is reserved for very useful pokemon who perform a role that no other pokemon in the metagame can mimic. There's no substitute for Gyarados or Starmie, for instance, who can do what they do. The +/- distinction is for differentiating between things that are really really good and things that are just good.

 

 

Okay, i think i understand the ranks a bit better now, although it's kinda tricky to rank a slow wallbreaker. 

Also that moment when i was the one who suggested to give starmie an A+

 

Anyway Blaziken became a respectable threat now, i'm probably gonna test it one of these days

All i know so far is slowbro checks any set but the sunny day set, which is instead walled by arcanine.

If you're missing one of these 2 in your team then blazi has the potential to be even scarier than ursa.

 

Edit: forgot to take psychic into account against the sunnybeam set

Edited December 24, 2015 by Vaeldras

[KaynineXL]

Okay, i think i understand the ranks a bit better now, although it's kinda tricky to rank a slow wallbreaker. 

Also that moment when i was the one who suggested to give starmie an A+

 

Anyway Blaziken became a respectable threat now, i'm probably gonna test it one of these days

All i know so far is slowbro checks any set but the sunny day set, which is instead walled by arcanine.

If you're missing one of these 2 in your team then blazi has the potential to be even scarier than ursa.

Slowbro is still risky at stopping +2 Blaz tpunch.

6 SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 146-174 (94.1 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

If Slowbro doesn't ohko, it's dead.

[bl0nde]

Random interesting calc:

+6 252 Atk Charizard ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 174-206 (86.5 - 102.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

My slowbro "revenged killed" (xD) a +6 charleyzard. How about that?

[Arimanius]

Random interesting calc:
+6 252 Atk Charizard ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 174-206 (86.5 - 102.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
My slowbro "revenged killed" (xD) a +6 charleyzard. How about that?

Well that's possible indeed, that's why some people go crunch over thunderpunch, but yeah it was probably a perfect slowbro and u had the low roll

[OrangeManiac]

I think Gardevoir should be A rank. Not only does is it amazing Pokemon that can CM sweep, outstall Chanseys and stuff, spread WOW all around, work as a Weez counter (and outstall Weez+Bliss) but I think it's an absolute necessity in a team with Forretress and especially Skarmory w/ Hp Fire to counter trap Magneton. In addition, Trace is a nice counter to Gyarados, Jolteon and the base stats are no joke. So diverse, so unpredictable, so many uses. I think A rank for Gardevoir is justified.

 

edit: alright some more

 

Marowak isn't A rank. I reasoned this before but it's just not. Literally never used and no reason to use over Metagross, Heracross even Blaziken or Medicham. B rank might be alright for being a nice stallbreaker.

 

Heracross for A+. Heracross became a bit harder to switch into when SkarmForretress lost viability due to ban of Dugtrio because Magneton can't be counter trapped. Overall just hits like a truck, even Weezing won't like coming in for that CB Megahorn, Gutsed or not.

 

Cloyster for B+ or even A: More reliable than Forretress and Skarmory and needs less support.

 

Slowbro for A+. The best defensive pivot in the tier. CM set can sweep teams. Hates Toxic but the existence of Chansey makes it just a one trip to doctor and everything's good again. Slowbro is an answer to so many offensive and defensive problems.

 

aaand I couldn't just not do this

 

Xatu for B: Yeah I'm not kidding here. It has one niche that no other pokemon has in OU metagame. A Psychic type which reliably beats Umbreon and Chansey. Nice answer to notorious Weez + Spec wall combo and it can set up on many Pokemon. A bit of 4MSS causes a lack of coverage but because of the metagame it has a niche.

Edited December 27, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[RysPicz]

Random interesting calc:

+6 252 Atk Charizard ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 174-206 (86.5 - 102.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

My slowbro "revenged killed" (xD) a +6 charleyzard. How about that?

+6 252 Atk Charizard Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 184-218 (91 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

Gladiator already ate a lot of Slowbros :v)

[Robofiend]

I think Gardevoir should be A rank. Not only does is it amazing Pokemon that can CM sweep, outstall Chanseys and stuff, spread WOW all around, work as a Weez counter (and outstall Weez+Bliss) but I think it's an absolute necessity in a team with Forretress and especially Skarmory w/ Hp Fire to counter trap Magneton. In addition, Trace is a nice counter to Gyarados, Jolteon and the base stats are no joke. So diverse, so unpredictable, so many uses. I think A rank for Gardevoir is justified.

 

edit: alright some more

 

Marowak isn't A rank. I reasoned this before but it's just not. Literally never used and no reason to use over Metagross, Heracross even Blaziken or Medicham. B rank might be alright for being a nice stallbreaker.

agree

 

Heracross for A+. Heracross became a bit harder to switch into when SkarmForretress lost viability due to ban of Dugtrio because Magneton can't be counter trapped. Overall just hits like a truck, even Weezing won't like coming in for that CB Megahorn, Gutsed or not.

I suppose.. only problem is Ursa is a little more reliable and better at spamming its STAB move. Also lack of SE coverage on Skarm makes Hera sad compared to Ursa.

 

Cloyster for B+ or even A: More reliable than Forretress and Skarmory and needs less support.

agree

 

Slowbro for A+. The best defensive pivot in the tier. CM set can sweep teams. Hates Toxic but the existence of Chansey makes it just a one trip to doctor and everything's good again. Slowbro is an answer to so many offensive and defensive problems.

Slowbro's good but I don't think it belongs in A+. Any set is countered by special walls and it can even die to CB Metagross Tpunch now, which is sad.

 

aaand I couldn't just not do this

 

Xatu for B: Yeah I'm not kidding here. It has one niche that no other pokemon has in OU metagame. A Psychic type which reliably beats Umbreon and Chansey. Nice answer to notorious Weez + Spec wall combo and it can set up on many Pokemon. A bit of 4MSS causes a lack of coverage but because of the metagame it has a niche.

yeah seems somewhat useful

[KaynineXL]

 

 

Slowbro for A+. The best defensive pivot in the tier. CM set can sweep teams. Hates Toxic but the existence of Chansey makes it just a one trip to doctor and everything's good again. Slowbro is an answer to so many offensive and defensive problems.

Slowbro's good but I don't think it belongs in A+. Any set is countered by special walls and it can even die to CB Metagross Tpunch now, which is sad.

 

 

 

I still think Slowbro is the best wall, I think it belongs in A+ myself. It walls pretty much everything not named Heracross iirc. Sure CB Meta tpunch does work to Slowbro, but doesn't it to everything? The good thing is, tpunch is easy to switch in to, because most have some type of elec resist.

[Robofiend]

I still think Slowbro is the best wall, I think it belongs in A+ myself. It walls pretty much everything not named Heracross iirc. Sure CB Meta tpunch does work to Slowbro, but doesn't it to everything? The good thing is, tpunch is easy to switch in to, because most have some type of elec resist.

 

Yeah I just think Slowbro has some big downsides that might keep it out of A+:

 

1. There are other pokes that can perform Slowbro's role well: Quagsire has better resists, a better ability and still enjoys instant healing (at the cost of being less bulky overall and having less offense), Swampert has more offense generally, Cloyster can spin/spike and Gyarados can work really well as an offensive pivot against some things, but can't do anything about Metagross.

 

2. Other physical walls have Flying/Levitate to keep spikes damage off. This is a huge plus for Skarm/Weez because they both resist EQ (a common coverage move for Choice Banders) and don't get worn down as much swapping in. Spikes make Slowbro into 2HKO material for a lot of OU sweepers, not just Heracross.

 

3. Toxic. While Weezing/Skarmory lack some of Slowbro's better qualities (instant healing, offense) they both resist Toxic and can abuse how predictable Chansey's Toxic is. Weezing essentially has no fear of Chansey and Skarmory, despite not liking ST, can set up Spikes on Chansey in a pinch. Slowbro's forced to switch out, usually to a Chansey of their own (the two do form quite the core, however).

 

 idk, discuss

[OrangeManiac]

Well, Clefable is ranked "S" in ORAS OU. It isn't anything that wow if you consider it alone. But in team, I'm not surprised of its rank. It doesn't sweep much even if it's Calm Mind, it's just a reliable Pokemon with its ability to nullify any set up strategy and that's it while being able to Wishsupport. It's not a Pokemon that shines exactly in the battle but the presence of it makes a lot of things more difficult. I feel Slowbro is in a lot of ways a similar Pokemon due to being a nice defensive pivot.

 

I know these two Pokemon aren't really alike in that ways but a Pokemon doesn't need to be causing you sweeps or walling the shit out a lot of things to be a valuable addition to a team.

[RysPicz]

I'm with Orange on that one, Slowbro definietly A+. It's the Slowking of OU: can come on literally every physical attack bar Megahorn to scout, can spread status, can become a walking battle tank with calm mind. It's bulky, it can hit hard and it's definietly one of the pokes that do define the tier. If even a CB Tauros cannot 2shot this with DEdge, then imo, it really does deserve it's place in A+.