[Community] Economy

[DoubleJ]

A recurring theme that keeps arising when discussing what's wrong with this game is the fact that the economy is basically broken. When I first started playing this game, trades were common and those trades revolved around Competitive Pokemon, Shiny Pokemon, Lucky Eggs, and other valuable items. Today though, trades are rare simply because of how difficult it is to obtain yen. While I'm not asking for free handouts or a boost to Pay Day, I do ask for something to be done to benefit the economy and recreate a bartering system that is fair among players.

 

The game is quickly becoming stale and is increasingly more difficult for new players to grow and develop in. While there are still a handful of teams that can support a new player or two, the idea that a player, or small group of players, can join this game, traverse the story, and move into competitive play without the help of established players is basically non-existent. 

 

Take for example the journey of LYLE. JSTUD, KingBowser, and I joined this game and began playing on our own. We were IRL friends that moved into competitive play out of sheer interest and gathered our comps on our own. We were able to do this because of a successful bartering system that let us trade and profit, and also in part to a competitive scene that didn't require pokemon with near perfect IVs. When we were prepared enough to actually win a tournament, we were then able to gain a whirlwind of wealth through a trade-able prize Shiny that could support not only ourselves, but also a growing team by helping other players gain whatever it was they needed. Through this method we were able to create one of the oldest and most successful guilds in this game. Unfortunately with the current economy this type of journey would be impossible. 

 

Development has seen the introduction of yen which is only obtained through Pay Day farming that requires an enormous amount of time. Breeding has now been changed to promote catching your own pokemon and breeding them. Competitive pokemon obtained through this method are now extremely valuable and are rarely traded, well unless a competitive player decides to quit and cash in on all of his or her comps. That or players that wish to obtain wealth breed a single comp and attempt to sell it for loads of cash. This is not supportable by a growing community. Even alt farming is discouraged with the introduction of new methods of obtaining items, such as Move Tutors being purchasable. And to top it all off, now the Shiny Market is drying up because an encounter with a Shiny is more difficult than ever with either reduced overall encounter rates and/or reduced encounter rates based on potential for "botting". Because of this, players that happen to catch a common shiny (God Bless Their Soul) have difficulty selling it for an appropriate price, and those that catch a rare shiny get bombarded by the few Shiny Collectors we have left with lowballs because yen and shinies are so hard to get.

 

Ok so to get away from a possible rant, let's focus on what's important. Developers want to create a game that supports a large and growing player-base. It's fairly obvious that this game was at its most popular when competitive play was easily accessible. While developers may not share the idea that end-game content should include competitive play, competitive players are by far their most tenured and dedicated player-base. With time we collect wealth and support new players by sharing our knowledge, our comps, and whatever else we can get. We are a self-supporting group that also love to spend real money in the Gift Shop to appear unique and create a welcoming environment on the forums through common discussion and team thinking. 

 

So why not support the competitive scene to once again obtain a flourishing game? While I personally lack the creativity to think of new ideas to benefit comp play outside of making changes to things that have been implemented this year, I do hope that developers will see the benefit in pushing for a healthier game that supports competitive play.

 

One suggestion could be to move away from the reliance on yen. Everything in this game is basically obtained through yen, which reduces player interactions. MMO's are designed for player-interaction, but with each new update this game becomes more and more a single-player adventure. When every item can be bought through money sinks, every comp can be bred through catching, and money can be obtained through farming, why do we need to interact? Our only true interaction is through competitive play, whether that is through officials or simply duels in Vermilion City. I would see myself growing bored very quickly after completing the story line in a game like this. While free and time-consuming, the attraction just isn't there. The basic concept of an MMO is weak in PokeMMO. 

 

 

As a quick fix, the move to add yen to official events was a great step, now we just need to consider what else could benefit. 

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

=)

 

 

tl;dr The economy is broken because of recent development changes. A solution needs to be made that could benefit player interaction in game, which primarily revolves around competitive play. 

[KaynineXL]

How about just making all IVs average, and only braced ones inherit?
This would effectively kill the RNG factor, which is arguably the single difficult part about it.

Perfect solution.

 

It's not making HPs completely free, but it is making them much much easier.

Couple this with Confirmed IVs.. People can't complain then surely.

[DoubleJ]

But the randomness of IV passing with breeding is a beneficial addition to the game. It eliminates "perfect passes" and makes it a bit of a risk. This is one thing that isn't a grind that prevents the feel of a "simulator". 

[Munya]

How about just making all IVs average, and only braced ones inherit?
This would effectively kill the RNG factor, which is arguably the single difficult part about it.

 

Then you would never be able to go for the lucky roll, though.

 

RIP combining 1x31's trying to randomly roll 2x31's for cheap and save space.

[Laz]

I've seen 2 opinions so far on this thread~
-No, don't make the hp farming easier, my pokes cost me too much grind and money, it won't be fair.
-Devs should make the hp farming more easier, we don't care how you proceed just do it, for the sake of the community.

 

I personnally have played this game for a long time, and I still do, I've spent millions and millions buying good nature/ivs/hp comps, sometimes breeding them.

If Devs happen to make the hp farming more easier and less grinding than it is now, that would be great news for the community, and it will only prove that this game is amazing.

 

What I actually dislike, is this: " -No, don't make the hp farming easier, my pokes cost me too much grind and money, it won't be fair. "
I mean, if you are not up for a making the game more easier,  then you guys are probably against any good change that will affect this game. ( For example, Being able to manipulate the Evs, as suggested before, etc )
Now, lets say that when this game were released on 2011-2, it already featured Kyu's suggestion ( Hidden Power ), and robofiend's and Noad's suggestion ( EV sliding once you did the EVs ONCE ) then, today, would you suggest that the hidden power should be harder to get ?, because not eveyone should be able to easly get them, because just like that it should need more grinding, you gotta deserve it ? ( Yes, the ones who bred them up untill now deserve them, but new players don't )
Would you also suggest that one shouldn't be able to change the EVs so easily because, you won't get to predict the EVset in tournaments and it will make it such a challenge to guess the EVs used ?
My humble opinion. is that whatever the changes are, if they will help the whole community, if the moto is: Less grinding, more fun, then  I'll gladly always support them, and you guys.
 

[codylramey]

You dont get it. We, or at least I, dont want it to be too easy for hiddenpower to be obtained because if that was the case hidden power pokes would be the same as normal pokes from a market perspective. They would be worthless. I have two HP pokes that i do not plan to sell so my back stock becoming worthless doesnt matter to me but the community not having the option to breed a HP poke for a profit does. HP pokes are among the pokes you can actually breed for a profit. People dont want to give the price of breeding pokes for a non hp poke. I dont want to see them being like that too.

 

But all n all my message has been that the devs should be careful when making these kinds of changes. If they break something, like Hp poke trading, its VERY hard to fix. Look at comp economy for proof.

 

Also you guys are WAY overstating the barrier to entry for the comp scene. Noobs arent struggling as much as you guys make them out to be.

 

[spoiler]

Also what is the anime in ur sig? looks cool

[/spoiler]

Edited July 21, 2015 by codylramey

[Yugi]

You dont get it. We, or at least I, dont want it to be too easy for hiddenpower to be obtained because if that was the case hidden power pokes would be the same as normal pokes from a market perspective. They would be worthless. I have two HP pokes that i do not plan to sell so my back stock becoming worthless doesnt matter to me but the community not having the option to breed a HP poke for a profit does. HP pokes are among the pokes you can actually breed for a profit. People dont want to give the price of breeding pokes for a non hp poke. I dont want to see them being like that too.

 

But all n all my message has been that the devs should be careful when making these kinds of changes. If they break something, like Hp poke trading, its VERY hard to fix. Look at comp economy for proof.

 

Also you guys are WAY overstating the barrier to entry for the comp scene. Noobs arent struggling as much as you guys make them out to be.

 

[spoiler]

Also what is the anime in ur sig? looks cool

[/spoiler]

You know .. i don't get u at all .. first you said defending the current breeding system the economy is just fine maybe even better than ever but now you are saying that nobody pays and want to make it harder to get HP to save its value ? i hate mindless grinding and button bashing but i also don't mind the current state of HP breeding except for genderless breeding which i think they made that decision to help that matter .. but i won't be against easing things as its like hell right now.

 

[spoiler]

also his sign is from anime called hunter x hunter epis 119 :)

[/spoiler]

[Spaintakula]

I've seen 2 opinions so far on this thread~
-No, don't make the hp farming easier, my pokes cost me too much grind and money, it won't be fair.
-Devs should make the hp farming more easier, we don't care how you proceed just do it, for the sake of the community.

You can't possibly deduct those 2 opinions out of what everyone said. It's just you saying things that aren't like that at all. The whole point of it is to not make this game boring as hell. I don't give a shit about how much money it took me to make HP Pokes, I don't want that gone, period. It'll just take out another part of the game that requires action, rather than sitting in viridian, or vermillion, or wherever the fuck I want, and AFK-ing/Fighting the whole day. It's the same thing with EV sliders, even if they'd have to be EV'd once before, it's still going a lot towards a simulator, rather than an MMO. Sliders are a bad idea imo, I wouldn't mind them, I'd still play the game, but it's a bad direction to go into, it'd make the game less boring to me

 

What I actually dislike, is this: " -No, don't make the hp farming easier, my pokes cost me too much grind and money, it won't be fair. "

Again, false claim, you have no real proof to actually make me believe that's what people think, because I'm one of them, and I don't think like that all. I'd advise to re-think what you want to say without saying bs. Sorry, you're wrong, 2nd half of your post is legit, but you legit fucked it up with the bs you said in the first part.

[codylramey]

You know .. i don't get u at all .. first you said defending the current breeding system the economy is just fine maybe even better than ever but now you are saying that nobody pays and want to make it harder to get HP to save its value ? i hate mindless grinding and button bashing but i also don't mind the current state of HP breeding except for genderless breeding which i think they made that decision to help that matter .. but i won't be against easing things as its like hell right now.

 

[spoiler]

also his sign is from anime called hunter x hunter epis 119 :)

[/spoiler]

Idt i said the econ is fine, but it is better than it was b4. You cant trade comp pokes that arent HP or genderless for more money than it takes to make them but you can trade breeders for a pretty good price. Also the econ can never be to its full potential w/o a trading hub,

[Laz]

 

First of all, I'm free to do what I want in the game: Sitting in vermillion, AFK'ing, or even watching porn while the game is open, none of that concerns you, and that is irrelevant to the topic we're discussing, how players spend their time doesn't concern you at all.
Secondly, I've noticed you used the word " bullshit, fuck, shit " so many times, I mean, one should respect others when expressing his/her points of view, rather than taking it personal.
Lastly, I'm also a part of the community, you may dislike this fact, but it's a fact, deal with it, learn to respect other people's opinions, even if you don't agree with them.

[DoubleJ]

My suggestion would be to implement a purchasable IV Reducing Berry that drops one IV by one. That certainly is a "price" to pay, both figuratively and literally, in order to obtain the hidden power you seek. It also fits with the upcoming confirmed IV feature and it doesn't stray from the current IV Combo's for the various hidden powers. I'd also suggest that if there is a fix coming to EV training, then it should be the implementation of a slider only after you've obtained 510 EVs through traditional grinding on that specific poke. Call it an "unlock" if you will. 

 

Does it really hurt to grind out 30 minutes per poke in the Azumarill pond to get 510 evs? Nah not really, and the reward is quite amazing in all honesty. 

[Spaintakula]

First of all, I'm free to do what I want in the game: Sitting in vermillion, AFK'ing, or even watching porn while the game is open, none of that concerns you, and that is irrelevant to the topic we're discussing, how players spend their time doesn't concern you at all.
Secondly, I've noticed you used the word " bullshit, fuck, shit " so many times, I mean, one should respect others when expressing his/her points of view, rather than taking it personal.
Lastly, I'm also a part of the community, you may dislike this fact, but it's a fact, deal with it, learn to respect other people's opinions, even if you don't agree with them.

I'm sorry, did you get hurt because I used grown up words? You can do whatever the fuck you want, but you still didn't get the point of it. While you like to do all of those things, there are other people who like to do the things I already mentioned, they get actual satisfaction from it, and can proclaim the pokes they work on as actual hard work. You're suggesting that part of the game to be gone. Sorry man, but you already limited what other players can do by saying "-No, don't make the hp farming easier, my pokes cost me too much grind and money, it won't be fair." You basically judged part of a playerbase on the thought that their comps would cost less. That, in my opinion, is just brainless thinking. You can take it whichever way you want, your problem, not mine. We're discussing possible removals/addons to the game, we're not discussing "Omg he said fuck and bullshit". If you honestly wanted to make me feel like I'm wrong, pointing out that I use curse words a lot is a bad choice tbh.

Last thing. Sitting in vermilion and afking is related to this topic quite  a lot, because you see, with the removal of EV training, and the addon of sliders, people would AFK a lot more, and have actually less things to do ingame, which leads to people who'd actually want to do something in the game end up with the other afk-ers who are there purposely. So yes, it is relevant, it's just that you don't want/can't really see that.

[Laz]

 

ok

[Spaintakula]

ok

Point proven.

[Vaeldras]

Hidden power pokes are not the reason why our economy is so crappy doe.

You don't suddenly find comps in the tall grass; if you have a comp in your box is because you needed one and you bought it/made it.

So why would you give one of your pokes away when there are so few on the market? to make profit ofc and this usually means having to overpay.

Sometimes it doesn't even matter how much you're willing to pay, because some pokes are just impossible to find (ancient power zard for example, but there are many others).

Maybe if pokemon were considerably easier to make i could even consider selling something, but not atm.

Confirmed ivs are definitely a good move, but i'm not sure how much things are going to change.

 

Edit: Btw: Breeding for "profit" (aha), hidden power breeding, ev training services etc.

It doesn't matter what you do to get money, the only source will always be npc's with the current system.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Spaintakula]

Hidden power pokes are not the reason why our economy is so crappy doe.

You don't suddenly find comps in the tall grass; if you have a comp in your box is because you needed one and you bought it/made it.

So why would you give one of your pokes away when there are so few on the market? to make profit ofc and this usually means having to overpay.

Sometimes it doesn't even matter how much you're willing to pay, because some pokes are just impossible to find (ancient power zard for example, but there are many others).

Maybe if pokemon were considerably easier to make i could even consider selling something, but not atm.

Confirmed ivs are definitely a good move, but i'm not sure how much things are going to change.

 

Edit: Btw: Breeding for "profit" (aha), hidden power breeding, ev training services etc.

It doesn't matter what you do to get money, the only source will always be npc's with the current system.

Oh god dammit, we can just do this in team.

That's the point tho. People don't really sell that much anymore. Fair point, most pokes are hard to find these days, atleast ones that existed time ago, true, but that's because everyone started breeding for themselves, and yeah, as you said, the only way they'd sell their pokes is if they got an overpay as an offer, seeing as they already know how much their whole poke project cost, while also wanting to make a profit on the side from selling it. Confirmed IVs are definitively a good move, but that's for the gameplay, and not the actual economy. With confirmed IVs, people get to breed their own pokes even faster and easier, which would decrease the market size even more than now. I already know a bunch of them who are just waiting on the update to start breeding comps right away.

[Gunthug]

My suggestion would be to implement a purchasable IV Reducing Berry that drops one IV by one. That certainly is a "price" to pay, both figuratively and literally, in order to obtain the hidden power you seek. It also fits with the upcoming confirmed IV feature and it doesn't stray from the current IV Combo's for the various hidden powers.

I mean, glossing over the fact that your "suggestion" is just the logical conclusion drawn from kyu's mentions of the new system, as well as something that's been mentioned almost word for word by me and others earlier in the thread...

 

this seems to go directly against what you stated a few posts ago. You think taking away the "random direct passing" (egg's idea) makes this too much like a simulator, but allowing you to literally manipulate IVs with the click of a button isn't?

[Vaeldras]

My suggestion would be to implement a purchasable IV Reducing Berry that drops one IV by one. That certainly is a "price" to pay, both figuratively and literally, in order to obtain the hidden power you seek. It also fits with the upcoming confirmed IV feature and it doesn't stray from the current IV Combo's for the various hidden powers. I'd also suggest that if there is a fix coming to EV training, then it should be the implementation of a slider only after you've obtained 510 EVs through traditional grinding on that specific poke. Call it an "unlock" if you will. 

 

Does it really hurt to grind out 30 minutes per poke in the Azumarill pond to get 510 evs? Nah not really, and the reward is quite amazing in all honesty. 

 

I mean, i'd rather have to decrease 1-2 ivs instead of paying, let's say...50k for an hidden power.

 

Edit: I feel as if we were actually discussing game mechanics rather than the economy

Edited July 22, 2015 by Vaeldras

[DoubleJ]

I mean, glossing over the fact that your "suggestion" is just the logical conclusion drawn from kyu's mentions of the new system, as well as something that's been mentioned almost word for word by me and others earlier in the thread...

this seems to go directly against what you stated a few posts ago. You think taking away the "random direct passing" (egg's idea) makes this too much like a simulator, but allowing you to literally manipulate IVs with the click of a button isn't?

Regarding your first statement, I'm sorry I didn't give you, Kyu, or anyone else credit for my generalized suggestion regarding implementation of new mechanics. I'll try harder next time.

Regarding your second statement, my suggestion to manipulate ivs leaves plenty of room for mmo style mechanics. While these "iv reducers" could be purchasable they could also be a farmed item or purchased with a farmed item like shards. This is better than risking breeds on risky odds.

At vaelbrah, the economy will be impacted by these changes so it's aphrodisiac appropriate in my opinion. Edited July 22, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Gunthug]

At vaelbrah, the economy will be impacted by these changes so it's aphrodisiac appropriate in my opinion.

lmao

 

but anyways yeah i still cant reconcile your urges not to get too close to a battle sim, and your support for an item that gives u the direct ability to manipulate IVs. I mean you once suggested to ban crits, so you can see why this sudden support for the only RNG left in breeding seems like a 180. But whatever it's not really relevant to this discussion, which seems to have run its course

Edited July 22, 2015 by Gunthug

[bl0nde]

I would speculate that the biggest single thing you could do to make the economy more active (without adjusting pokemon rarity)would be to implement an automated ladder system of some sort with the player ranks and etc. Kyu made one post about an idea he had related to this. To me, it's a matter of creating demand for comps or to make people "desire" to have comps more. More duels people want to participate in to be #1 = more demand for comps to help them try to get there.

 

Also, have you looked at global chat in the last... year+? A lot of it is unmoderated Spanish trades and all sorts of Spanish stuff. I think some of these guys don't even come to the forums or participate in tournaments because tournaments are at weird times for them and they also simply don't speak English. Between the pokemon duelists that don't speak fluent English in PokeMMO, I think you would get some of those guys getting more involved in the competitive scene (and therefore potentially creating more demand in the economy for buying comps) if there was an automated ranking system in place that those guys could more easily participate in.

 

Not implying anything, just speculating that it is a way to make the the economy more active with trades.

 

edited.

Edited July 22, 2015 by bl0nde

[Kizhaz]

Then you would never be able to go for the lucky roll, though.
 
RIP combining 1x31's trying to randomly roll 2x31's for cheap and save space.

Or you could be smart and brace the 31's instead of wasting breeders

[Yugi]

I would speculate that the biggest single thing you could do to make the economy more active than it is now would be to implement an automated ladder system of some sort with the player ranks and etc. Kyu made one post about an idea he had related to this. To me, it's a matter of creating demand for comps or to make people "desire" to have comps more. More duels people want to participate in to be #1 = more demand for comps to help them try to get there.

 

Also, have you looked at global chat in the last... year+? A lot of it is unmoderated Spanish trades and all sorts of Spanish stuff. I think some of these guys don't even come to the forums or participate in the tournaments because they simply don't speak English. Between the French and Spanish guys that don't speak English, I think you'd get some of those guys getting more involved in the competitive scene (and therefore potentially creating more demand in the economy for buying comps) if there was an automated ranking system in place that those guys could more easily participate in.

I don't really think that we need the "more demand" on comps since there is a lot of those around but @ what cost ? and i mean littraly ? they cost too much to ask someone to breed them and its tedious to breed them ourselfs so either i make them myself and bear the tedious grinding or i have to overpay to others.

I was a breeder in the past as i stated many times but i don't do that any more just grinding the islands and circling around till the next update and thats all.

as you may also noticed there isn't much of a comp on the trade channel any more at least not as much as 1x & 2x.

again the problem isn't demanding more comps .. i want to make some comps myself not for PVP but for the fun of making it as it was before .. but its too boring and stressing right now that i lost all motives to do it.

[Kizhaz]

Story time; so recently I was breeding for a hp grass pokemon, I had already confirmed a bunch of 31speed, spdef and 30 spatk breeders to use and so was slowly passing my nature along as well as 1 IV at a time. It is worth mentioning that I was using random 25+ HP and Def breeders. Eventually I got to the point for my final breed, the sp.atk, sp.def and speed were all confirmed, I could get even or odd for the other 3 iirc, might have had another stat confirmed odd, HP I think. Anyway, after all the effort and money put towards this pokemon it came out as hp elec. There was only 1 possible chance to get elec compared to the multiple grass options.

Basically what I'm getting at that even if you have confirmed IV's, there is still alot of effort to be put in to get the correct hp, alot of pokemon to be caught for the needed IV's and alot of braces to be bought for making the mon. So I am really looking forward to bashing my mons heads to change their hp. All I ask is that we dont suddenly end up with 6×31 hp fire mons walking about, stay true to the combinations

[Spaintakula]

Story time; so recently I was breeding for a hp grass pokemon, I had already confirmed a bunch of 31speed, spdef and 30 spatk breeders to use and so was slowly passing my nature along as well as 1 IV at a time. It is worth mentioning that I was using random 25+ HP and Def breeders. Eventually I got to the point for my final breed, the sp.atk, sp.def and speed were all confirmed, I could get even or odd for the other 3 iirc, might have had another stat confirmed odd, HP I think. Anyway, after all the effort and money put towards this pokemon it came out as hp elec. There was only 1 possible chance to get elec compared to the multiple grass options.

Basically what I'm getting at that even if you have confirmed IV's, there is still alot of effort to be put in to get the correct hp, alot of pokemon to be caught for the needed IV's and alot of braces to be bought for making the mon. So I am really looking forward to bashing my mons heads to change their hp. All I ask is that we dont suddenly end up with 6×31 hp fire mons walking about, stay true to the combinations

And that's why confirmed IVs will make that problem dissapear. I see what the dude I was bashing at was saying, partially right, you want it because your comps would be worth less after all that effort put into them. Make new ones, once the update comes along with confirmed IVs, you won't have to think or calc too much whether the IVs will come out the way they do, just need to put the pieces together.

Yeah tho, still gonna cost you money, which is still an issue that needs to be addressed and fixed somehow.

[Kizhaz]

And that's why confirmed IVs will make that problem dissapear. I see what the dude I was bashing at was saying, partially right, you want it because your comps would be worth less after all that effort put into them. Make new ones, once the update comes along with confirmed IVs, you won't have to think or calc too much whether the IVs will come out the way they do, just need to put the pieces together.

Yeah tho, still gonna cost you money, which is still an issue that needs to be addressed and fixed somehow.

 

"even if you have confirmed IV's, there is still alot of effort to be put in"

You say this is why confirmed IV's will fix this, yet I had already confirmed my IV's when doing this breed; so no, confirmed IV's would make no difference in this scenario. Why does making the market price of hp pokemon lower, result in choosing hp's a bad idea? If anyone is worried about that, then they can sell their pokemon now and breed another post update, choosing the hp of their liking. Ultimately I feel that the benefits of choosing the hp outweigh the "cons"