[UU Discussion] Rhydon (Banned to BL)

[LionKIng]

Basically running rhydon makes it impossible for a balanced team to be fonctionnal because theres basically no safe switch in to rhydon and to add to that fact, rhydon has safe switches on alot of popular pokemons. 

Edited August 21, 2015 by LionKIng

[DaftCoolio]

Some calcs which show the no safe switch in thing.

 

[spoiler] 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 122-146 (67 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 118-139 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 100-118 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 114-136 (56.4 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 114-135 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 114-135 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

 

[/spoiler]

Edited August 21, 2015 by DaftCoolio

[DrCraig]

Some calcs which show the no safe switch in thing.

 

[spoiler] 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 122-146 (67 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 118-139 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 100-118 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 114-136 (56.4 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 114-135 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 114-135 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Megahorn makes things die too :)

[Arimanius]

Megahorn makes things die too :)

 

yeah in those calcs exeggutor and slowking become 0hko with megahorn

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 188-222 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 360-428 (178.2 - 211.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

even without choice

 

252+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 244-288 (120.7 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

if slowking receives  an eq it can die to megahorn after

 

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 85-102 (42 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 138-164 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

PD: I love rhydon in uu though it helps a lot to fight against the dusclops/omastar core

[londark]

I think the point coolio was trying to make is that even with a lower Base Power move like Ice Punch ( that let's Rhydon deal with Gligars and Breeloms better ) none of those can switch on Rhydon cause they get 2hko and are slower than a 252 Speed Adamant ( except Claydoll, that still needs high IVs in speed and a non -spd nature, but that in return can't ohko 4/0 Rhydon with Ice Beam )

[DoubleJ]

Ayyeeee thanks for the input guys. The more discussion the better we can come to a conclusion on this beast.

[Artemiseta]

Bump looking for more discussion

[Arimanius]

Well my position about this is to keep it as long as dusclops remains uu, the dusclops/omastar core is strong and hard to beat, they could stall u really well if spikes are on the field + status without much trouble, although I know it can 0hko or 2hko almost every wall right now with a choice band, I still think is good to have it here

[BurntZebra]

Well my position about this is to keep it as long as dusclops remains uu, the dusclops/omastar core is strong and hard to beat, they could stall u really well if spikes are on the field + status without much trouble, although I know it can 0hko or 2hko almost every wall right now with a choice band, I still think is good to have it here

There's no point in keeping rhydon in UU to keep dusclops in check. If UU tier council is worried about dusclops becoming OP, then ban rhydon, see how the meta is afterwards and if dusclops is problematic. If it isn't, then nothing to worry about. If it is problematic, then ban it, and move on with our lives. 

[Arimanius]

There's no point in keeping rhydon in UU to keep dusclops in check. If UU tier council is worried about dusclops becoming OP, then ban rhydon, see how the meta is afterwards and if dusclops is problematic. If it isn't, then nothing to worry about. If it is problematic, then ban it, and move on with our lives.

Well yeah but does rhydon give that much trouble anyway? I mean it's really fragile in the special side so it can be killed by a lot of things, there are a lot of water and grass pokemons in uu with a high usage and a lot of pokemons that can revenge kill it, it is a wallbreaker and ofc it can break them but that's its role I guess, in my opinion it doesn't give too much trouble and it doesn't mean I'm right ofc

[DaftCoolio]

Well yeah but does rhydon give that much trouble anyway? I mean it's really fragile in the special side so it can be killed by a lot of things, there are a lot of water and grass pokemons in uu with a high usage and a lot of pokemons that can revenge kill it, it is a wallbreaker and ofc it can break them but that's its role I guess, in my opinion it doesn't give too much trouble and it doesn't mean I'm right ofc

i feel like revenge killing just isnt real, it can just switch out to a clefable or other special wall and come back and ruin stuff later.

[BurntZebra]

Well yeah but does rhydon give that much trouble anyway? I mean it's really fragile in the special side so it can be killed by a lot of things, there are a lot of water and grass pokemons in uu with a high usage and a lot of pokemons that can revenge kill it, it is a wallbreaker and ofc it can break them but that's its role I guess, in my opinion it doesn't give too much trouble and it doesn't mean I'm right ofc

It's not exactly that fragile on the special side assuming it doesn't take grass or water attacks. It could survive a psychic from alakazam, the strongest special attacker in the tier, which was so strong that it was banned. It can take electric/fire/psychic/normal special attacks decently. A wall breaker shouldn't necessarily be able to break through EVERY wall, but just some of them. Crawdaunt breaks through vileplume/slowking/steelix, but people can run stuff like hitmontop/breloom/quagsire which can all pivot in and out of cb crawdaunt fairly well. Azumarill can power through dusclops, steelix, and possibly vileplume, but fails to break slowking, which makes it acceptable as a wallbreaker in UU. Think about all the other wallbreakers in UU, are there any that have 0 counters, even gimmick sets to stop them. I'd assume no.

 

Keeping Rhydon UU just seems kind of against what all the other UU tier decisions has been. If rhydon is allowed to stay, then it doesn't make sense to keep other unstoppable powerhouses in BL just for no reason. And moving them down won't really solve much either, as it will result a very centralizing meta around the formerly BL pokemon and will most likely lead to an unhealthy meta. I mean even if rhydon stays, and machamp/hariyama don't get moved down, but miltank and dodrio do, then rhydon will see an extremely high usage since it is required to keep miltank and dodrio in check, and miltank/dodrio are obviously better than most of the other UU pokemon, and in turn will be used more. This results in a centralizing meta as well. 

[NikhilR]

 A wall breaker shouldn't necessarily be able to break through EVERY wall, but just some of them. Crawdaunt breaks through vileplume/slowking/steelix, but people can run stuff like hitmontop/breloom/quagsire which can all pivot in and out of cb crawdaunt fairly well. Azumarill can power through dusclops, steelix, and possibly vileplume, but fails to break slowking, which makes it acceptable as a wallbreaker in UU. Think about all the other wallbreakers in UU, are there any that have 0 counters, even gimmick sets to stop them. I'd assume no.

 

Your first paragraph is completely untrue Zebra. A wallbreaker CAN break through every wall, hence the name. Azumarill CAN break through Slowking through CB Double Edge. Scizor CAN break through all of the walls with Steel Wing / Superpower / Thief. So what makes Scizor unbannable? 

Edited August 28, 2015 by NikhilR

[BurntZebra]

Your first paragraph is completely untrue Zebra. A wallbreaker CAN break through every wall, hence the name. Azumarill CAN break through Slowking through CB Double Edge. Scizor CAN break through all of the walls with Steel Wing / Superpower / Thief. So what makes Scizor unbannable? 

I wouldn't say either of those are on the same level of rhydon. Scizor has huge power issues, relying on thief and steel wing to hit the plethora of fighting resists in UU, which are rather weak in base power compared to rhydon's coverage options, and can only 3hko slowking with thief/double edge, where as rhydon does over 70% to every wall in the meta. Azumarill is a bit closer to rhydon's level, since it has 224 attack and a slightly better movepool than scizor. But it relies heavily on double edge to damage the bulky waters in UU like slowking, quagsire, tentacruel, and probably some other water type I can't think of at 6 am. Its stab is somewhat commonly resisted as well, unlike rhydon's earthquake, where only a select few pokemon can take an earthquake, and all of those pokemon that can take an earthquake are one hit by rhydon's coverage moves. 

[NikhilR]

I wouldn't say either of those are on the same level of rhydon. Scizor has huge power issues, relying on thief and steel wing to hit the plethora of fighting resists in UU, which are rather weak in base power compared to rhydon's coverage options, and can only 3hko slowking with thief/double edge, where as rhydon does over 70% to every wall in the meta. Azumarill is a bit closer to rhydon's level, since it has 224 attack and a slightly better movepool than scizor. But it relies heavily on double edge to damage the bulky waters in UU like slowking, quagsire, tentacruel, and probably some other water type I can't think of at 6 am. Its stab is somewhat commonly resisted as well, unlike rhydon's earthquake, where only a select few pokemon can take an earthquake, and all of those pokemon that can take an earthquake are one hit by rhydon's coverage moves. 

 

Hmm, for some reason I've felt like Thief from Scizor 2hkos Slowking easily, My bad, about that. Although, even if Scizor has lesser base power moves, it still has better bulk and typing which allow it to last longer on the field than Rhydon and do its duty as a wallbreaker.

 

Nothing wrong with Azumarill relying on Double Edge to hit the bulky waters because recoil doesn't do that much of dmg since it has a high base hp stat. Rhydon's earthquake is resisted by Exeggutor and has immunities from things like Swellow/Xatu/Claydol/Charizard, assuming that it is CB locked. I agree that Rhydon's coverage is insane but I really have to bring up the point about how it can be revenge killed easily. 

 

However, I disagree completely with stall being unable to beat it. There are a few pokemon that can switch in on +2 and still ohko back:

 

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 151-178 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 150-178 (82.4 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

I'll admit that the damage is huge, but so is the dmg done by Azumarill or Scizor on the above walls. Also, unlike Scizor, Rhydon can't switch in repeatedly. If it's coming on clefable and 252attk/speed, seismic does more damage and it can't maintain sub. If it's a sub/sd set with 200+hp, then it loses coverage and also doesn't hit hard enough, if it is running investment in speed instead of attk. If it runs in attack, then it makes itself more prone to revenge killing. 

 

Basically, Rhydon is shit against offense, okay-ish vs balanced and much, much better vs stall but that doesn't mean it's too strong for stall where it becomes completely unviable. 

Edited August 28, 2015 by NikhilR

[Arimanius]

nik made my point really clear (ty for that) I think if we ban rhydon right now we leave stall in better position for the final summer and that's what I don't like, we can't favor any play style over another but with rhydon stall still can be effective and balance and offensive too, you explained that people can run breloom or things like that for crawdaunt but they can run them for rhydon too and azumarill is as good wallbreaker as rhydon, even better I think since it can take some hits

[Robofiend]

nik made my point really clear (ty for that) I think if we ban rhydon right now we leave stall in better position for the final summer and that's what I don't like, we can't favor any play style over another but with rhydon stall still can be effective and balance and offensive too, you explained that people can run breloom or things like that for crawdaunt but they can run them for rhydon too and azumarill is as good wallbreaker as rhydon, even better I think since it can take some hits

 

It seems like everyone just agreed that stall is not viable with Rhydon around

 

To clarify - saying "nah its chill" because perfect IVs Quags/Vileplume can swap into a +2 EQ (while they die coming in CB EQ or if spikes are up) and live just looks at one aspect of what Rhydon does: it isn't a sweeper, it's something that 2HKO's all of the tier's walls - meaning the only way these two are coming into play is if Rhydon has already broken another wall.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Robofiend

[DrCraig]

With all these huge threats, stall really doesn't have a place. Clops isn't groundbreaking. We had a meta before with porygon and umbreon where stall was not the optimal playstyle. Now without those too, and adding dusclops, I dont know how clops is going to break the playstyle balance. Without Rhydon, I don't know how stall will become too viable. We still have threats which you guys are implying are up to par with Rhydon such as Azumarill and Scizor. Even Crawdaunt, and Zard still exists. Rhydon right now is way too much of a nuke to the point of it being centralizing. Personally, Rhydon constricts the fuck out of my teambuilding. Running EQ resists barely works when megahorn and rock slide exist. Rhydon is reason to run pokemon like Gligar which has no use otherwise, and even then needing to make a stronger anti-Rhydon core just because Gligar is worn down and can't ohko Rhydon. What separates Rhydon's offense from that of Machamp right now? Machamp has guts, that's cool, but it doesn't even have the powerful movepool rhydon has. Machamp doesn't have access to a spammable 150BP stab and 4 120~BP moves giving it perfect coverage. Even on the special side, Alakazam was just as much of a nuke. Yes Zam is faster, but wall switch ins are the problem right now, and Zam had just as many wall switch ins as Rhydon. Im pretty all over the place, but Rhydon right now is restricting team building, and making stall unviable. Yea, Rhydon is very anti-meta and it is destroying our top walls which isnt bad, but on top of all the current team building pressure we get from Charizard, Scizor and Crawdaunt? Too much. I don't want the 93/102 speed UU meta or die again.

Edited August 28, 2015 by DrCraig

[NikhilR]

Do you guys consider Absol banworthy too? Because it seems like it can destroy stall. 

[BurntZebra]

Do you guys consider Absol banworthy too? Because it seems like it can destroy stall. 

Stall has counters to it. Stall doesn't have a counter for rhydon. If absol had a 120 base power dark move and could do 70% to every wall in the meta, yeah it'd probably be banworthy, but it relies on megahorn superpower coverage which isn't amazing. 

[Havsha]

Do you guys consider Absol banworthy too? Because it seems like it can destroy stall. 

252 Atk Choice Band Absol Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 176-208 (83 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 226-268 (161.4 - 191.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[Robofiend]

Do you guys consider Absol banworthy too? Because it seems like it can destroy stall. 

 

Not sure how it'd be banworthy, its defenses are papery, it has no relevant resists in the tier and its lack of strong Stab prevents it from really being effective. Megahorn, SuperPower, Pursuit, and.. whatever else Absol decides to run have both offensive and defensive checks that make Absol a liability. It's just fundamentally different compared to Rhydon, whose two relatively unresisted STABs, good defenses, and reasonable speed tier lets it abuse its resistances and good physical bulk to effectively chip away at stall.

 

Absol can't effectively break Vileplume, Steelix, Scizor or even Slowking in one hit unless it boosts or uses Choice Band and predicts correctly. By comparison, Rhydon can kill/harm all of the pokemon with just CB EQ.

 

Clearly there's a difference between "being able to kill walls" and being Uber, really trying to avoid going Senile on your ass about this :)  

[NikhilR]

Stall has counters to it. Stall doesn't have a counter for rhydon. If absol had a 120 base power dark move and could do 70% to every wall in the meta, yeah it'd probably be banworthy, but it relies on megahorn superpower coverage which isn't amazing. 

 

Which stall completely counters Absol? Megahorn / Superpower / Pursuit coverage is quite good in my eyes. 

 

 

Not sure how it'd be banworthy, its defenses are papery, it has no relevant resists in the tier and its lack of strong Stab prevents it from really being effective. Megahorn, SuperPower, Pursuit, and.. whatever else Absol decides to run have both offensive and defensive checks that make Absol a liability. It's just fundamentally different compared to Rhydon, whose two relatively unresisted STABs, good defenses, and reasonable speed tier lets it abuse its resistances and good physical bulk to effectively chip away at stall.

 

Absol can't effectively break Vileplume, Steelix, Scizor or even Slowking in one hit unless it boosts or uses Choice Band and predicts correctly. By comparison, Rhydon can kill/harm all of the pokemon with just CB EQ.

 

Clearly there's a difference between "being able to kill walls" and being Uber, really trying to avoid going Senile on your ass about this :)  

 

If you're considering Absol's defenses papery, then what about Rhydon's 4x weaknesses to grass/water? What is it that Absol can't come in vs that Rhydon can't, except for normal attacks from Kanga. 120 base power moves without stab is still quite good if you ask me. Why do you think EQ is unresisted? Claydol, Exeggutor are fair answers to this if you ask me. So again, how is CB EQ gonna sweep you? Because according to this, pokemon like Golem or Donphan should be banned, except for the fact that they don't have a move to hit Exegg or Claydol (other than Double Edge)

 

Absol does require boosts to potentially sweep and imo, it can get boosted easier if you invest in bulk. And if Rhydon wants to sweep a proper defensive core, it's gonna need boosts as well. 

 

And really Rhydon isn't uber. You guys are just basing it off on theory and not practice. Since Rhydon has been implemented in UU, there has hardly been an incident where Rhydon has swept unless the guy absolutely deserved it for playing bad.  

Edited August 29, 2015 by NikhilR

[DrCraig]

Problem is when I make a team, I don't sit there and contemplate ways to deal with Absol. Absol movepool is powerful, and its defenses are par, but nothing shines strong enough to be remotely compared to Rhydon. Even conceptually. Absol's moveset is set in stone. It has 2 moves to spam, and 1 drops its defenses. I'm not threatened by Absol because their is not much it can do. Pursuit trapping is inevitable, and I'm not going to restrict myself great lengths to stop 2 non stabs. Rhydon on the other hand, has acces to 5 punishing moves. It takes the megahorn/superpower of Absol, and puts them in its pocket. These aren't even Rhydon's primary coverage moves and it just puts them in it's pocket. Rhydon has EQ and RS to spam, both STAB. Rhydon has D-edge to spam on top if it even wants with no recoil. It's unpredictable and hard hitting. Regarding Absol's effect on stall as a playstyle, Absol is a necessity to check the playstyle. Absol, and other pursuit trappers, are not overpowered and limiting the playstyle. Absol and other pursuit trappers are 'pillars' in the metagame that keep the playstyle in check. Rhydon is limiting the ways walls are ran, which ones are ran, and how many of them need to be ran specifically for it, just to run stall a bit efficiently. Rhydon itself is too big of a force.

[GoldenSunIsaac]

Hmm, for some reason I've felt like Thief from Scizor 2hkos Slowking easily, My bad, about that. Although, even if Scizor has lesser base power moves, it still has better bulk and typing which allow it to last longer on the field than Rhydon and do its duty as a wallbreaker.

 

Nothing wrong with Azumarill relying on Double Edge to hit the bulky waters because recoil doesn't do that much of dmg since it has a high base hp stat. Rhydon's earthquake is resisted by Exeggutor and has immunities from things like Swellow/Xatu/Claydol/Charizard, assuming that it is CB locked. I agree that Rhydon's coverage is insane but I really have to bring up the point about how it can be revenge killed easily. 

 

However, I disagree completely with stall being unable to beat it. There are a few pokemon that can switch in on +2 and still ohko back:

 

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 151-178 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 150-178 (82.4 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

I'll admit that the damage is huge, but so is the dmg done by Azumarill or Scizor on the above walls. Also, unlike Scizor, Rhydon can't switch in repeatedly. If it's coming on clefable and 252attk/speed, seismic does more damage and it can't maintain sub. If it's a sub/sd set with 200+hp, then it loses coverage and also doesn't hit hard enough, if it is running investment in speed instead of attk. If it runs in attack, then it makes itself more prone to revenge killing. 

 

Basically, Rhydon is shit against offense, okay-ish vs balanced and much, much better vs stall but that doesn't mean it's too strong for stall where it becomes completely unviable. 

 

It's not exactly that fragile on the special side assuming it doesn't take grass or water attacks. It could survive a psychic from alakazam, the strongest special attacker in the tier, which was so strong that it was banned. It can take electric/fire/psychic/normal special attacks decently. A wall breaker shouldn't necessarily be able to break through EVERY wall, but just some of them. Crawdaunt breaks through vileplume/slowking/steelix, but people can run stuff like hitmontop/breloom/quagsire which can all pivot in and out of cb crawdaunt fairly well. Azumarill can power through dusclops, steelix, and possibly vileplume, but fails to break slowking, which makes it acceptable as a wallbreaker in UU. Think about all the other wallbreakers in UU, are there any that have 0 counters, even gimmick sets to stop them. I'd assume no.

 

Keeping Rhydon UU just seems kind of against what all the other UU tier decisions has been. If rhydon is allowed to stay, then it doesn't make sense to keep other unstoppable powerhouses in BL just for no reason. And moving them down won't really solve much either, as it will result a very centralizing meta around the formerly BL pokemon and will most likely lead to an unhealthy meta. I mean even if rhydon stays, and machamp/hariyama don't get moved down, but miltank and dodrio do, then rhydon will see an extremely high usage since it is required to keep miltank and dodrio in check, and miltank/dodrio are obviously better than most of the other UU pokemon, and in turn will be used more. This results in a centralizing meta as well. 

Long paragraphs and math are hurting  my head trying to read it all. Ill just give a brief opinion, rhydon is not a safe switch in poke, unless its vs a phys attacker like a normal type with no ground/fighting moves. Pointless switching rhydon in vs a sp.attacker because your pretty much dead. I always thought Rhydon was 60% useless since he is slow and for some reason can get 2HKO and OHKO pretty easy. Should stay in UU not ready for the dangers of OU yet. However, he is a really good attacker for pokemon that are slower than it, and can really be useful for hard hits and poential 2HKO'S

Edited August 29, 2015 by GoldenSunIsaac