[UU Discussion] Rhydon (Banned to BL)

[OrangeManiac]

overly specific to dealing with Rhydon

 

 

Well this was pretty much my point of all of this. I'm not convinced either way. We cannot just assume those kind of teambuilds that beat Rhydon are only to beat Rhydon. Swellow is one of the few top tier sweepers that do not have good move or two against Rhydon.

Since you made it a little bit sound like (to me) that I would want to keep the Rhydon in the tier so I'll make it clear for my own sake here: I do think Rhydon most likely is banworthy in the UU tier but we cannot just ban it without having a real look of the metagame and just assume Rhydon is the problem in our whatever meta. Yeah it absolutely destroys stall but can we be sure stall in our current meta exactly is viable?

[spoiler]inb4 Senile's quote of which went about like "when there's a metagame, there's stall"[/spoiler]

Edit: If you look at the UU list of Pokemon it looks pretty damn offensive to me at the moment.

Edit2: (a kind of a TL;DR of what I'm saying): Rhydon does not make stall unviable if Rhydon isn't a sure bet to be brought to every team. If highly offensive teams make Rhydon to not be used that may lead to defensive team to be viable against those highly offensive teams. You're free to argue that this isn't the case but I'm just saying we can't assume things.

Edited August 12, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Robofiend]

Well this was pretty much my point of all of this. I'm not convinced either way. We cannot just assume those kind of teambuilds that beat Rhydon are only to beat Rhydon. Swellow is one of the few top tier sweepers that do not have good move or two against Rhydon.

Since you made it a little bit sound like (to me) that I would want to keep the Rhydon in the tier so I'll make it clear for my own sake here: I do think Rhydon most likely is banworthy in the UU tier but we cannot just ban it without having a real look of the metagame and just assume Rhydon is the problem in our whatever meta. Yeah it absolutely destroys stall but can we be sure stall in our current meta exactly is viable?

[spoiler]inb4 Senile's quote of which went about like "when there's a metagame, there's stall"[/spoiler]

Edit: If you look at the UU list of Pokemon it looks pretty damn offensive to me at the moment.

Edit2: (a kind of a TL;DR of what I'm saying): Rhydon does not make stall unviable if Rhydon isn't a sure bet to be brought to every team. If highly offensive teams make Rhydon to not be used that may lead to defensive team to be viable against those highly offensive teams. You're free to argue that this isn't the case but I'm just saying we can't assume things.

 

I'm pro-ban for the record, solid clarifications. To me it sounded like you were saying "nah it's not Uber because you can run offense and offense isn't scared of Rhydon at all" but it seems like you're a little softer on that than it originally sounded.

[DoubleJ]

Offense really isn't scared of rhydon tho.

[Robofiend]

Offense really isn't scared of rhydon tho.

 

I just wrote a wall of text explaining how/why offense can or should be afraid of it - you're going to need more of an argument than that.

[DoubleJ]

Physical water and grass,the prevalence of super power, swords dance eq, the popularity of hp grass, and let's not forget sunny beamers and all the 2hkos from common special stabs.

Sure if it comes in favorably on a predicted normal attack from say granbull and you can't ohko it, you'll have to predict right, but in most cases there is an answer somewhere between a one to two hit ko.

[DoubleJ]

Ok, so we've seen Rhydon in a couple tournaments and honestly I'm unimpressed, but with Alakazam being banned, will the tier see more opportunity for pokemon that can slow down Rhydon or will Rhydon just have more freedom to do its thing? Off the top of my head I'm thinking Bulky Hitmontop, Claydol, and Gligar could become more viable and that pokemon like Clefable that are set-up bait will be seen less. 

 

We'll need to look into this again after tomorrow's UU tournament where we can see what Rhydon can do in a tier without Alakazam. In the mean time... more discussion! 

 

\o/

[gbwead]

pokemon like Clefable that are set-up bait will be seen less.

+6 252+ Atk Clefable Meteor Mash vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 260-306 (127.4 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pfff... Who are you calling a set-up bait?

Edited August 17, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

Ok, so we've seen Rhydon in a couple tournaments and honestly I'm unimpressed, but with Alakazam being banned, will the tier see more opportunity for pokemon that can slow down Rhydon or will Rhydon just have more freedom to do its thing? Off the top of my head I'm thinking Bulky Hitmontop, Claydol, and Gligar could become more viable and that pokemon like Clefable that are set-up bait will be seen less. 

 

We'll need to look into this again after tomorrow's UU tournament where we can see what Rhydon can do in a tier without Alakazam. In the mean time... more discussion! 

 

\o/

Claydol and gligar I wouldn't really count as they are both ohko'ed by rhydon, and can only 2hko rhydon at best (or 3hko if no attack invest on gligar). Hitmontop is an option to pivot but it still takes 45-50% chunk of hp if it comes in vs an earthquake, has no healing outside of leftovers, and can only 3hko rhydon (or 2hko if low kick, but regardless, not a ohko, meaning rhydon will still beat the matchup usually). 

 

I imagine its going to be like the old UU meta from like early 2014 or so, where rhydon was such a threat that people just never ran anything that was bait for rhydon, and just ran speed invested blastoise, gligar, porygon (rip superpower now), and fast lanturn to just never let rhydon do anything. I don't really think that's exactly healthy, or else tyranitar would be in OU with that same logic. God I love comparing OP pokemon to tyranitar. 

[KingBowser]

Stop comparing rhydon to ttar you fools. Rhydon doesnt get to boost its speed to sweep, and cant take the oh so common grass/water hits.

[DoubleJ]

Claydol and gligar I wouldn't really count as they are both ohko'ed by rhydon, and can only 2hko rhydon at best (or 3hko if no attack invest on gligar). Hitmontop is an option to pivot but it still takes 45-50% chunk of hp if it comes in vs an earthquake, has no healing outside of leftovers, and can only 3hko rhydon (or 2hko if low kick, but regardless, not a ohko, meaning rhydon will still beat the matchup usually). 

 

I imagine its going to be like the old UU meta from like early 2014 or so, where rhydon was such a threat that people just never ran anything that was bait for rhydon, and just ran speed invested blastoise, gligar, porygon (rip superpower now), and fast lanturn to just never let rhydon do anything. I don't really think that's exactly healthy, or else tyranitar would be in OU with that same logic. God I love comparing OP pokemon to tyranitar. 

 

Rhydon with Ice Punch to counter a rare Gligar... ya I'm not really seeing that one Zebra. A more realistic calc would be the following, which is quite impressive still.

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 78-92 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

This one hurts everyone...

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Claydol: 172-204 (102.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Hurts as well...

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 70-84 (44.5 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hitmontop Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 96-114 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO

 

As for the speed creeping, Blastoise regularly runs speed above 101. Gligar is already faster than 101 even without investment lol. Porygon2 is gone and an offensive Lanturn has proven to be pretty deadly in the recent officials, nabbing surprise KO's. 

 

 

Now I'm not defending Rhydon by any means, my opinion on it right now is torn. On paper it is an absolute monster that yes, can 2-shot the entire tier with the right predictions, but sadly it really hasn't risen up as an offensive monster like many have predicted. It's presence has certainly shaken up the tier, but the tier still appears healthy imo. I saw stall, hyper offense, and balanced offense all play fairly evenly today, and honestly the common pokes in UU mostly all outspeed Rhydon and can kill it in 1-2 hits. That or they can swallow a hit and strike back with a OHKO (think Vileplume). 

 

Also ya, comparing Rhydon to Tyranitar is just baiting those without much knowledge into agreeing with you on moving toward this ban. It's a moot argument and one that doesn't hold much merit. 

 

 

EDIT: The Rhydon used in the above calcs was 252 HP / 252 Attack Adamant Choice Band. A set that isn't very common but is useful in calculations as it can represent maximum power and also the typical max bulk that's used as well. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by DoubleJ

[NikhilR]

 and just ran speed invested blastoise, gligar, porygon (rip superpower now), and fast lanturn to just never let rhydon do anything. I don't really think that's exactly healthy, or else tyranitar would be in OU with that same logic. God I love comparing OP pokemon to tyranitar. 

 

Right, the only reason ppl run speed invested lanturns/walreins is to beat Rhydon, not pokemon like jolly donphan/aggron or impish gligar which existed in UU during the beginning of the choice band meta :rolleyes:

 

Running speed on these has so many more benefits in our current meta also, like beating adamant Crawdaunt and outspeeding uninvested Kanga. So please Zebra, Rhydon is in no way making the healthiness of the meta worse because these existed long before it was even UU. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by NikhilR

[BurntZebra]

 

Rhydon with Ice Punch to counter a rare Gligar... ya I'm not really seeing that one Zebra. A more realistic calc would be the following, which is quite impressive still.

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 78-92 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

This one hurts everyone...

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Claydol: 172-204 (102.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Hurts as well...

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 70-84 (44.5 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hitmontop Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 96-114 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO

 

As for the speed creeping, Blastoise regularly runs speed above 101. Gligar is already faster than 101 even without investment lol. Porygon2 is gone and an offensive Lanturn has proven to be pretty deadly in the recent officials, nabbing surprise KO's. 

 

 

Now I'm not defending Rhydon by any means, my opinion on it right now is torn. On paper it is an absolute monster that yes, can 2-shot the entire tier with the right predictions, but sadly it really hasn't risen up as an offensive monster like many have predicted. It's presence has certainly shaken up the tier, but the tier still appears healthy imo. I saw stall, hyper offense, and balanced offense all play fairly evenly today, and honestly the common pokes in UU mostly all outspeed Rhydon and can kill it in 1-2 hits. That or they can swallow a hit and strike back with a OHKO (think Vileplume). 

 

Also ya, comparing Rhydon to Tyranitar is just baiting those without much knowledge into agreeing with you on moving toward this ban. It's a moot argument and one that doesn't hold much merit. 

 

 

EDIT: The Rhydon used in the above calcs was 252 HP / 252 Attack Adamant Choice Band. A set that isn't very common but is useful in calculations as it can represent maximum power and also the typical max bulk that's used as well. 

 

Well even though ice punch isn't for much, what else is rhydon going to run? It has perfect coverage with 2 powerful stab attacks and a 120 base power megahorn. The only thing else worth running is superpower to ease prediction with flying types+steel type combos and ohko'ing normal types (what are those). If there's one "counter" to rhydon that can kind of handle three of rhydon's moves, then it would be silly not to run a 4th move for that (and hit those sneaky max hp/def brelooms). 

 

I don't really know what you're trying to say with the statement about water types. Obviously water types faster than 101 speed are going to beat rhydon. But unfortunately those are pretty rare now, lanturn is the only one I'd really consider running, which definitely can't switch in vs rhydon. The other bulky water, slowking, is too slow to outspeed rhydon and gets ohko'ed about 35% of the time anyways. 

 

I saw one or two rhydons yesterday, out of about the 5 matches I spectated. One was an sd+3 attack one. It took out altaria, hitmonlee (albeit a weird sp defensive one with only earthquake), and a max defense tangela, all without any swords dance boost or choice band boost. The other was a choice band rhydon that pretty much got a kill every time it came in (come in vs kanga/predicted switches etc). 

[Arimanius]

Well even though ice punch isn't for much, what else is rhydon going to run? It has perfect coverage with 2 powerful stab attacks and a 120 base power megahorn. The only thing else worth running is superpower to ease prediction with flying types+steel type combos and ohko'ing normal types (what are those). If there's one "counter" to rhydon that can kind of handle three of rhydon's moves, then it would be silly not to run a 4th move for that (and hit those sneaky max hp/def brelooms). 

 

I don't really know what you're trying to say with the statement about water types. Obviously water types faster than 101 speed are going to beat rhydon. But unfortunately those are pretty rare now, lanturn is the only one I'd really consider running, which definitely can't switch in vs rhydon. The other bulky water, slowking, is too slow to outspeed rhydon and gets ohko'ed about 35% of the time anyways. 

 

I saw one or two rhydons yesterday, out of about the 5 matches I spectated. One was an sd+3 attack one. It took out altaria, hitmonlee (albeit a weird sp defensive one with only earthquake), and a max defense tangela, all without any swords dance boost or choice band boost. The other was a choice band rhydon that pretty much got a kill every time it came in (come in vs kanga/predicted switches etc). 

 

Well they must be bad, I'm pretty sure LightLeaks faced Rhydon in every match he had and beat the hell out of them in every of them till the point he won the tournament, he only struggled a little bit against Kyzukun cause he did a wrong WRONG prediction but that's his fault so I agree with jj in this one, without alakazam punishing most of his counter I think we can test it a little bit more, just my opinion

[Robofiend]

Just run bullet seed Breloom = GG

[NikhilR]

Well even though ice punch isn't for much, what else is rhydon going to run? It has perfect coverage with 2 powerful stab attacks and a 120 base power megahorn. The only thing else worth running is superpower to ease prediction with flying types+steel type combos and ohko'ing normal types (what are those). If there's one "counter" to rhydon that can kind of handle three of rhydon's moves, then it would be silly not to run a 4th move for that (and hit those sneaky max hp/def brelooms). 

 

I don't really know what you're trying to say with the statement about water types. Obviously water types faster than 101 speed are going to beat rhydon. But unfortunately those are pretty rare now, lanturn is the only one I'd really consider running, which definitely can't switch in vs rhydon. The other bulky water, slowking, is too slow to outspeed rhydon and gets ohko'ed about 35% of the time anyways. 

 

I saw one or two rhydons yesterday, out of about the 5 matches I spectated. One was an sd+3 attack one. It took out altaria, hitmonlee (albeit a weird sp defensive one with only earthquake), and a max defense tangela, all without any swords dance boost or choice band boost. The other was a choice band rhydon that pretty much got a kill every time it came in (come in vs kanga/predicted switches etc). 

 

To address your first paragraph, let's just say that Rhydon has no counters and from the countless debates I've had over time, just because something doesn't have a counter, doesn't mean it's banworthy. Rhydon can't switch in and out when it pleases and running it is just too risky.

 

I don't know how you can say water types faster than 101 are rare. Tentacruel, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, Lanturn, Kingler, Azumarill (can hit above 101). Most teams carry either one or two of the above. Your problem is with how you want one of the water types to switch into Rhydon, well guess what, neither of our current water types can switch into a CB Donphan either. 

 

There are soooo many revenge killers out there for Rhydon. Apart from the water types I mentioned, giga drain Xatu, hp grass Manectric, Jynx, Golduck, Sharpedo. I know the last 3 haven't been seen much, but I get the feeling that they'll be seen more often now. The situation you've mentioned is quite idealistic. Either the player who lost to the Rhydon had his water types fainted very early or he probably didn't run any revenge killer. If his altaria was a wallish one, then it's easy set up bait for Rhydon. He could've had other pokemon like dusclops/non eq kanga which could've also been set up bait thus making it easier to sweep. 

 

The duty of most choicebanders is to get a kill every time it comes on. It's up to you to predict well and not carry switch in bait for it. If you're over here discussing things like Rhydon, then I don't get why you're not discussing Scizor. It can come in on so many pokes easily and the only reason people run hp fire on vile/exegg and fire punch on things like kanga, zangoose etc. is for Scizor. 

[KaynineXL]

I saw one or two rhydons yesterday, out of about the 5 matches I spectated. One was an sd+3 attack one. It took out altaria, hitmonlee (albeit a weird sp defensive one with only earthquake), and a max defense tangela, all without any swords dance boost or choice band boost. The other was a choice band rhydon that pretty much got a kill every time it came in (come in vs kanga/predicted switches etc). 

You make it sound like it easily swept those pokes, but wasn't the Tangela at like 60%? Altaria wasn't fully healthy either stab rs obviously gonna hurt.. And Hitmonlee with no super.

[KingBowser]

If we can handle crawdaunt we can handle Rhydon.

[Robofiend]

I don't know how you can say water types faster than 101 are rare. Tentacruel, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, Lanturn, Kingler, Azumarill (can hit above 101). Most teams carry either one or two of the above. Your problem is with how you want one of the water types to switch into Rhydon, well guess what, neither of our current water types can switch into a CB Donphan either. 

 

Nik, I'm sorry to cherry pick here but:

 

Tenta - 26% 

Crawdaunt - 21%

Azu - 9%

Lanturn - 8% 

Kingler 4.8% 

 

Kabutops is NU so we'll disregard

 

It just doesn't make sense from a usage stat pespective to say that "most teams have more than one of these pokes" - the best you can do is assume a team has one - and having one says nothing about the fact that none of these pokemon can even switch into Rhydon in the first place. Granted, if usage wise Rhydon struggles to switch in it probably won't end up being a huge threat to the metagame.

 

If we can handle crawdaunt we can handle Rhydon.

 

That's not an argument. It's the same as me saying "If OU can handle Heracross then it can handle Snorlax" without actually providing a reason as to why this is true. 

[KaynineXL]

That's not an argument. It's the same as me saying "If OU can handle Heracross then it can handle Snorlax" without actually providing a reason as to why this is true. 

Yeh but Crawdaunt and Rhydon are fairly similar in their role. Heracross and Snorlax are completely different. 

[NikhilR]

Nik, I'm sorry to cherry pick here but:

 

Tenta - 26% 

Crawdaunt - 21%

Azu - 9%

Lanturn - 8% 

Kingler 4.8% 

 

Kabutops is NU so we'll disregard

 

It just doesn't make sense from a usage stat pespective to say that "most teams have more than one of these pokes" - the best you can do is assume a team has one - and having one says nothing about the fact that none of these pokemon can even switch into Rhydon in the first place. Granted, if usage wise Rhydon struggles to switch in it probably won't end up being a huge threat to the metagame.

 

 

Nah that's fair Robo. But imo, you can't go by those exact usage stats at the moment because these were before the bans of p2 and umbreon and inclusion of Rhydon into UU. So, I'd like to see the usage from Summer Ball Qualifier #6 onwards, once Noad updates it, since those are what matter atm.

Edited August 17, 2015 by NikhilR

[KingBowser]

 

That's not an argument. It's the same as me saying "If OU can handle Heracross then it can handle Snorlax" without actually providing a reason as to why this is true. 

I just assume you guys were smart enough to make the parallel but fooled me wrong. Lets not be over dramatic and look like a total imbecile by comparing lax to heracross. Lets see Crawdaunt and rhydon are quite smiliar but in my humble opinion crawdaunt out classes rhydon, unless looking for a normal resistance. The common UU core is like Vilepume/(Slowking/quasire)/Clefable/scizor, Crawdaunt finds it can get more switch ins than a rhydon could. And unlike Rhydon, you cant just slap on a hiddin power on a poke to deal with Crawdaunt so easy. Rhydon is just out classed by Crawdaunt in the term of wall breaking and getting switch ins.

[Robofiend]

I just assume you guys were smart enough to make the parallel but fooled me wrong. Lets not be over dramatic and look like a total imbecile by comparing lax to heracross. Lets see Crawdaunt and rhydon are quite smiliar but in my humble opinion crawdaunt out classes rhydon, unless looking for a normal resistance. The common UU core is like Vilepume/(Slowking/quasire)/Clefable/scizor, Crawdaunt finds it can get more switch ins than a rhydon could. And unlike Rhydon, you cant just slap on a hiddin power on a poke to deal with Crawdaunt so easy. Rhydon is just out classed by Crawdaunt in the term of wall breaking and getting switch ins.

 

Yeah i know I was being a dick but it's not enough to just say "they're the same lol" without explaining it. I generally agree (they're bulky attackers, scary, have trouble switching in directly) but I think the fact that Rhydon's STABs are much more poorly resisted than Crawdaunt's is relevant - as is the fact that Crawdaunt runs DD/CB while Rhydon runs CB/Sub/SD. 

[Gunthug]

Rhydon's sheer power is extraordinary, and behind a sub it's one of the scariest pokemon in UU. But without a way to boost that abysmal speed, it's checked by so many pokemon which i think makes up for its lack of a true counter. Even if we see pokes start to run 102 speed to beat rhydon, I don't know if that's necessarily unhealthy. Metagames make subtle adjustments to account for certain high powered threats, just look at scizor.

 

Regardless, if the argument is unhealthy, it'll take a lot more than a tournament or two to see rhydon's impact and draw any conclusions about its health. My opinion now, though, is that it doesnt fit any uber criteria and will do just fine here in UU

[KingBowser]

Yeah i know I was being a uguu but it's not enough to just say "they're the same lol" without explaining it. I generally agree (they're bulky attackers, scary, have trouble switching in directly) but I think the fact that Rhydon's STABs are much more poorly resisted than Crawdaunt's is relevant - as is the fact that Crawdaunt runs DD/CB while Rhydon runs CB/Sub/SD. 

Ehh personally feel stab crunch is more difficult than stab rock/ground, the only thing that can switch into it is like scizor/steelix, neither willing to take that waterfall.

[gbwead]

hitmonlee (albeit a weird sp defensive one with only earthquake)

And Hitmonlee with no super.

How dare you make fun of my rapid spin Lee !!!

 

[hr]

 

Edit: I'd like to see what the new meta without Zam looks like, before striking the banhammer so prematurely.

Edited August 17, 2015 by lamerb