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[UU Discussion] Dodrio / Miltank / Tauros

DoubleJ

By DoubleJ
in Competition Archive

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DoubleJ

DoubleJ

Posted
Posted

Screenshot_2015_08_21_10_28_56.png

 

Choice Band

Item: Choice Band

Ability: Early Bird

Nature: Adamant / Jolly

EVs: 252 Attack / 4 Def / 252 Spe

  • Double-Edge / Return
  • Drill Peck
  • Low Kick / Pursuit
  • Quick Attack

Flail

Item: Salac Berry / Leichi Berry

Ability: Early Bird

Nature: Adamant / Jolly

EVs: 252 Attack / 4 Def / 252 Spe

  • Drill Peck
  • Quick Attack
  • Substitute / Endure
  • Flail

 

Screenshot_2015_08_21_10_29_08.png

 

Curse Cow

Item: Leftovers

Ability: Thick Fat

Nature: Careful

EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef

  • Curse
  • Body Slam
  • Milk Drink
  • Heal Bell / Fire Punch / Earthquake

Screenshot_2015_08_21_10_28_59.png

Choice Band

Item: Choice Band

Ability: Intimidate

Nature: Jolly

EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe

  • Double-Edge / Return
  • Earthquake
  • Pursuit
  • Quick Attack / Facade / Iron Tail

 

 

With the possibility of Rhydon and Dusclops becoming mainstays in the Under-Used tier, the UU Council has given some thought to potentially moving down Dodrio, Miltank, and Tauros. This idea stems from both Rhydon and Dusclops being reasonable counters to each of these threats and limiting their offensive presence in the tier. We'd like to hear some discussion on this matter while we continue to decide on Rhydon and Dusclops' place.

 

My thoughts are that Dodrio would be the most likely to be given an opportunity to be moved down. It puts a decent amount of pressure on the tier while still suffering from Will-o-Wisp and relying on Low Kick to do any reasonable damage to Rhydon. It also should be noted that +1 200 BP Flail can 2HKO Rhydon as well. Drill Peck does roughly 25-30% to Defensive Dusclops, which would likely become the common set with added physical power in the tier. I see a Defensive Dusclops being a healthy change since it is already an admirable special wall, toss in special bulk and most of the special attackers in the tier can't touch it.

 

Miltank is akin to Snorlax with Curse, but in my opinion slightly better when considering the UU tier. It has access to instant recovery, heal bell to instantly remove status, and it also has an unusually high base speed. Past calcs showed that even after 1 Curse Miltank was able to outspeed the majority of UU's walls. Body Slam paralysis is still an issue and the cow has incredible special bulk with Thick Fat and investment. I personally don't feel like it would be a healthy addition.

 

Tauros is insanely fast for UU. Hitting a speed stat of 178 it can outspeed every common threat in the tier excluding Swellow. With this in mind we'd be relying too heavily on walls that are too easily removed by Rhydon. One of the only defensive options that can reliably handle Tauros is Cradily, which is hardly seen in the UU tier. Dusclops does reasonably well, but Tauros can take advantage of WoW spam by using STAB Facade, which could prove to be a problem if/when Dusclops is removed. Like with Miltank, I personally don't feel like this pokemon would be a healthy addition. 

 

 

So as stated, this was just an idea that the tier council had if Rhydon and Dusclops were to stay. We'd like to hear additional input on this, and also on Rhydon and Dusclops in their respective threads. 

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RysPicz

RysPicz

Posted
Posted (edited)

Before you make another moves, let's see how Clops and Ride On will adapt. It's still very early to judge whether they do fit or not. From my point of view they're cool, but not a lot of time has passed to make any reasonable judgement.

 

E:

 

Tauros is bs

Edited by RysPicz
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DoubleJ

DoubleJ

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  • Author
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Before you make another moves, let's see how Clops and Ride On will adapt. It's still very early to judge whether they do fit or not. From my point of view they're cool, but not a lot of time has passed to make any reasonable judgement.

 

E:

 

Tauros is bs

 

And that's exactly what we're doing. I just wanted to get this out there since discussion in the Rhydon and Dusclops threads literally died a day after they were made. This introduction is just an idea though and not guaranteed to happen. 

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Robofiend

Robofiend

Posted
Posted (edited)

Nope
 

EDIT: to give a more concrete explanation: I feel like this is a "lets bring down more broken shit to check this other broken shit" type scenario. Nothing deals with Sub/Flail Dodrio, Miltank can Ice Punch Rhydon and Fire Punch Scizor, and Tauros is just ridiculous without Ghosts in the tier to check it. 

 

What happened to the rule about 1 thread in Comp alley at a time?

Edited by Robofiend
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BurntZebra

BurntZebra

Posted
Posted (edited)

Nope
 

EDIT: to give a more concrete explanation: I feel like this is a "lets bring down more broken shit to check this other broken shit" type scenario. Nothing deals with SD/Sub/Flail Dodrio, Miltank can Ice Punch Rhydon and Fire Punch Scizor, and Tauros is just ridiculous without Ghosts in the tier to check it. 

 

What happened to the rule about 1 thread in Comp alley at a time?

Dodrio doesn't get sd, at least not the sd I'm thinking of. Miltank has massive 4mss and always leaves it complete bait for some pokemon, not to mention ice punch only 4hkos rhydon. 2 coverage moves means no heal bell and is very weak to status in that case. If no heal bell, then it has to run rest and is set up bait for 2 turns/can be roared out. I agree with tauros, it can't even be revenge killed really and would pretty much force people to run dusclops. 

Edited by Noad
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DoubleJ

DoubleJ

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  • Author
Posted (edited)

Nope
 

EDIT: to give a more concrete explanation: I feel like this is a "lets bring down more broken shit to check this other broken shit" type scenario. Nothing deals with SD/Sub/Flail Dodrio, Miltank can Ice Punch Rhydon and Fire Punch Scizor, and Tauros is just ridiculous without Ghosts in the tier to check it. 

 

What happened to the rule about 1 thread in Comp alley at a time?

 

When did Dodrio get Swords Dance? And also, Miltank is likely too strong. Tauros has Dusclops, but still likely too strong. 

 

That rule went out the window about a month ago. 

Edited by DoubleJ
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Guerinf

Guerinf

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think, as DoubleJ does, that Dodrio may fit well in the UU metagame but that Tauros and Miltank are two strong.

 

Dodrio is a great physical sweeper, really fast and really strong. The CB set can clearly 2hko nearly every thing that doesn't resist its stabs. But its lack of a good coverage and it's miserable defenses make him possible to handle for the opponant. First of all it can't really switch in on anything because of its lack of bulk and can only act as a revenge killer or can switch in on something blocked on an equake :

 

- Dusc's WoW makes him useless

- 0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 76-91 (56.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- 0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 81-96 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- 0 SpA Claydol Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 82-98 (60.7 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- 4 Atk Steelix Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 67-79 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

...

 

The flail set is really not viable imo, as it's clearly walled by  or dusc or steelix, and as all thoses sets, it's countered by the first priority move that comes.

Finally, there are things that can outspeed it (it see mostly manectric or swellow or crobat) and a Scizor Quick attack can hurst him really bad. It's actually really easy to revenge kill it : 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 51-60 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 51-60 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

So, i think dodrio can be tried in UU. But the two others may be too strongs, especially tauros imo. As tauros is quicker then everything beside swellow and crobat, has acces to equake and has a great bulk with an acces to intimidation that gives him easy switch ins. I think it has more or less the same counters and checks as dodrio, but once a team is wallbroken (don't know if it's a real and correct word), it can cleraly sweep as it is really hard to revenge kil it because of it's good bulk.

 

In the case of Miltank. It can fits in many teams and be able to do many differents roles with an acces to a huge movepool with instant recovery, support moves and a boosting move. Bodyhax may be difficult to handle too but well, kanga stall can do it too and nobody complains about it. The curse set may be the most dangerous, but things like rhydon, steelix, dusclops or scizor can really block it i think.

 

( Edit : and as Zebra said, it can be a huge set up bait once it's moves scooted)

 

I'm waiting for others opinions to set my mind about those three. But if i have to say my first feelings aabout them, i would say that i'm in favor of a try of Dodrio in UU, against one of Tauros, and not sure about Miltank. But as always, I might miss things up.

Edited by Guerinf
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codylramey

codylramey

Posted
Posted

Nope
 
EDIT: to give a more concrete explanation: I feel like this is a "lets bring down more broken shit to check this other broken shit" type scenario. Nothing deals with Sub/Flail Dodrio, Miltank can Ice Punch Rhydon and Fire Punch Scizor, and Tauros is just ridiculous without Ghosts in the tier to check it. 
 
What happened to the rule about 1 thread in Comp alley at a time?

this doesnt seem like "bring beoken shit down to check other broken shit" this is more like the checks were brought down by usage and if they stay these things may not be broken any more.
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DaftCoolio

DaftCoolio

Posted
Posted

3 in one thread wtf is this shit

 

Dodrio can 2hko borderline the entire tier. Couple spikes or just some wear and tear make clops and scizor a 2hko to drill peck. Low Kick deals with steelix. Omastar the only counter really even then, I dont really understand low kick so idk if that BP is right. Omastar's only recovery is lefties so not really reliable. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 64-76 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Tauros, lol.

 

Miltank. the young fresh curselax.

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DrCraig

DrCraig

Posted
Posted

3 in one thread wtf is this shit

 

Dodrio can 2hko borderline the entire tier. Couple spikes or just some wear and tear make clops and scizor a 2hko to drill peck. Low Kick deals with steelix. Omastar the only counter really even then, I dont really understand low kick so idk if that BP is right. Omastar's only recovery is lefties so not really reliable. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 64-76 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Tauros, lol.

 

Miltank. the young fresh curselax.

I hate to break it to you but Rhydon also 2hkos the whole tier. If the UU council is fostering a meta where offense is more viable and their is punsihment for running generic teams, then moving these threats down would be great. 

[spoiler]Really wish Rhydon wasnt UU, Im gonna have to use it in OU to get I moved up I guess.[/spoiler]

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DaftCoolio

DaftCoolio

Posted
Posted

I hate to break it to you but Rhydon also 2hkos the whole tier. If the UU council is fostering a meta where offense is more viable and their is punsihment for running generic teams, then moving these threats down would be great. 

[spoiler]Really wish Rhydon wasnt UU, Im gonna have to use it in OU to get I moved up I guess.[/spoiler]

yea i was assuming that they wouldnt be stupid enough to let rhydon stay

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DoubleJ

DoubleJ

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  • Author
Posted

I mean, what do you expect when you ardently defend a pokemon that a lot of players think is too strong for the tier based just on first impressions.


Until this afternoon there was little evidence that there was even more than 10 players in support of a ban, whether you look at discussion in the thread or the poll. Fortunately people are starting to voice their opinion now.
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BurntZebra

BurntZebra

Posted
Posted

i feel like your implying dusclops stops it?

252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 55-66 (37.4 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

pretty good stop considering its immune to dodrios 2 other moves and dodrio is 2hko'ed by pretty much any move that isn't ground type. 

 

252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 58-70 (32.9 - 39.7%) -- 16.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

pretty hot 

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BurntZebra

BurntZebra

Posted
Posted (edited)

Clops is pretty easy to pursuit trap and oma's only recovery is lefties

assuming omastar is 4hko'ed by dodrio, only if dodrio low kicks every time which is very risky for the dodrio user, and considering dodrio is 2hko'ed by slowking/vileplume/steelix/omastar/quagsire/any offensive pokemon, makes it unlikely that dodrio would be able to break through anything really. Dodrio is also easy to pursuit trap, especially if its locked into something besides drill peck, as scizor will tear dodrio in half as dodrio switches out. 

Edited by BurntZebra
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