[Banned to ubers] Gengar

[Vaeldras]

No, you said "I guess chansey became the way to go sp wall and dugtrio had to step in, right?"

So, I'm just saying I like Pory more than Chansey. HP Fire Pory traps Mag.

 

Come to think of it, gardevoir could stop cold (even without calm nature) every sp sweeper but gengar.

I suppose pory can do that just fine too

[Robofiend]

dugtrio can trap pory, survive icebeam, and 2hko. Not sure how realivant that is to the discussion about pory you guys are having.

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 220-260 (109.4 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

not seeing it

[Gunthug]

 

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 220-260 (109.4 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

not seeing it

 

4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 102-120 (92.7 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

@ lvl 50, not sure if thats what's causing your strange calc or something else

[codylramey]

U gotta add spcl def. But adamant w/spcl dwf invest can kill almost all spcl walls.

[BenGorgon]

 

I am dumb nm

 

But still, whats the problem with CursePert? xP

Edited September 26, 2015 by BenGorgon

[Robofiend]

 

4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 102-120 (92.7 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

@ lvl 50, not sure if thats what's causing your strange calc or something else

 

 

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 114-136 (108.5 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

wat

 

 

U gotta add spcl def. But adamant w/spcl dwf invest can kill almost all spcl walls.

 

hmm seems odd but I guess it could work. Honestly Dug's so frail it seems like a waste to do anything but Jolly 

[NikhilR]

 

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 114-136 (108.5 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 102-120 (92.7 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

What gunthug was trying to say was that may be you calculated dugtrio at a lower level or porygon2 at a higher level which would explain the discrepancy. 

 

EDIT: The calc being used is DPP, incase that could've been the problem. 

Edited September 26, 2015 by NikhilR

[Gunthug]

yeah nik's right robo, i'm not exactly sure why but the DPP calc is showing something different than the X/Y calc in this case. Which is strange because I think ice beam is actually lower base power in gen 6 - so why that's translating to a more powerful ice beam on dugtrio is beyond me. But make sure you're using DPP for our calcs in the future

[Toast]

yeah nik's right robo, i'm not exactly sure why but the DPP calc is showing something different than the X/Y calc in this case. Which is strange because I think ice beam is actually lower base power in gen 6 - so why that's translating to a more powerful ice beam on dugtrio is beyond me. But make sure you're using DPP for our calcs in the future

well this is the x/y calc so idk what happened

 

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 96-114 (87.2 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

[codylramey]

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 114-136 (108.5 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
wat
 

 

 
hmm seems odd but I guess it could work. Honestly Dug's so frail it seems like a waste to do anything but Jolly

if ur goal is to get rid of the spcl wall and ovewhelm the opponent with spcl atkers then adamant dug with spcl def invest does this almost w/o fail (inb4 crit). I think that umby is the only one that can survive 2 eqs from this dug. And he is left weak after.

[Robofiend]

rofl at this calc madness

 

I think it's safe to say that Dugtrio doesn't reliably live two Ice Beams without investment, can we leave it at that?

[Spaintakula]

yeah nik's right robo, i'm not exactly sure why but the DPP calc is showing something different than the X/Y calc in this case. Which is strange because I think ice beam is actually lower base power in gen 6 - so why that's translating to a more powerful ice beam on dugtrio is beyond me. But make sure you're using DPP for our calcs in the future

Until gen4 or 5, Ice beam was 95 bp?

Gen 6 it's 90 bp

[zteban]

so... when gonna come back gar, lax, bliss? xd

 

look like full of stall and trap right now 

[Robofiend]

so... when gonna come back gar, lax, bliss? xd

 

look like full of stall and trap right now 

 

Recently we've noticed that Chansey has become really common in OU, and that it's really useful as a blanket check to pretty much everything (and it functions amazingly well as a cleric for stall). Do you think it would be better if Chansey were banned? (this question is open to everyone)

 

Opinion: OU is a bit stall-y right now, but it's not as bad (in terms of being centralized) as the Snorlax/Blissey meta. Chansey in particular shines as a special wall, and is a lot like Blissey. Despite being less bulky than it's evolution, Chansey's a god tier special wall (I think usage will confirm this) and given our reasoning for banning Blissey and Snorlax, it may also be fair to ban Chansey.

 

That's all a bit off topic from Gengar, but I will say this: It's a lot easier to build a team without the threat of Gengar running you over. The special sweeper set, defensive and nuke special+status Gengar sets that became popular before the ban all required a lot of different counters to stop. In some ways, stall made more sense in that metagame: Gengar can stall against stall but can't truly break it outside of stopping Slowbro and Arcanine. Now stall is a little underpowered because of how many common pokemon have instant recovery, but walls like Chansey are also highly used because of how good status, Wish passing and Heal Bell are for any type of team.

 

I believe we'll be making a decision on Gengar soon, so now is the time to voice your opinion OU players

Edited September 28, 2015 by Robofiend

[BenGorgon]

As was said, it is much easier to team build, and with a certain amount of diversity (read minimal, but hey, this is OU) with Gengar out of the picture. Instead of just using it as a catch-all, I have seen a number of replacements, either shooting for the same speed or nuking capabilities as the wily ghost. Of course, the most common is Jolt, but that is by far less difficult to orient around. 

 

I think the bottom line is, Gengar is far to centralizing. It has a role in every team, has limited checks and arguably no clear and direct counters. It has the element of surprise, and can run way too many varied sets to play around effectively. I would not agree with a sustained ban because it is "Offensively Uber", as it does require a limited amount of support and in a vacuum, should not be that difficult to deal with. I personally am for a sustained ban on Genger because of its' centralizing features. 

 

On the off-topic note of Chancey, I just don't know. I don't like it. Its' sets are the best support you could ask for, and it is frustratingly difficult to deal with in a powerful defensive core. However, that is where I really come to an impasse, the blob is a Poke that requires a direct supporting partner in almost all cases, unlike Gengar which can support and is supported by just about anything. I think it is something that should be looked at and considered, but I am not sure my stance on it yet. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by BenGorgon

[Vaeldras]

If trapping is such a big issue the question comes just natural: wtf is dugtrio still doing in ou?

Also ye, chansey is the same as blissey, except it can lose to fake tears jolt (and possibly become a setup bait for sub,wish,charge,tbolt?lol).

For some reason i can't see it as too good not to use because of it's lack of offensive power though, but in the end is the same exact thing.

As long as it doesn't reach an obscene usage rate i'd keep it

[zteban]

. Do you think it would be better if Chansey were banned?

 

 

 

should have be banned since blissey was banned. blissey was banned under his defensive caracteristics, and chansey have practicly the same. he only lack from special attack, but even if he had enought, i guess people could still running toxic + seismic, cause is just a win-win combo in this meta

Edited September 28, 2015 by zteban

[Vaeldras]

blissey was banned under his defensive caracteristics

 

Not really, i mean you don't suddenly realize that blissey can somehow totally wall any sp after years of dealing with it.

Indeed because of it's defensive stats, but it doesn't actually fit under that criteria, you can easily break it down with a ph sweeper.

If we were to ban chansey too it would be solely for it's impact on the meta

[NikhilR]

should have be banned since blissey was banned. blissey was banned under his defensive caracteristics, and chansey have practicly the same. he only lack from special attack, but even if he had enought, i guess people could still running toxic + seismic, cause is just a win-win combo in this meta

 

It was banned under unhealthiness. But yeah if we're banning lax/bliss out of unhealthiness, then Chansey should be banned for the same.

[codylramey]

It was banned under unhealthiness. But yeah if we're banning lax/bliss out of unhealthiness, then Chansey should be banned for the same.

I havent played the gengarless meta much which is why i am largely staying out of this convosatione. But i do know that gengar put huge pressure on chansey. The sub fp set destroied chansey most of the time. She would be forced to run psychic for gengar and it wasnt really good for anything else. With no psychic bliss was not able to handle sib gar (or even normal gar if she didnt have twave.). I think this is a classic case of one ban causing another ban. Now we shouldnt keep broken things in order to keep other broken things around but im not too sure that gengar was all that broken in the first place.

[NikhilR]

I havent played the gengarless meta much which is why i am largely staying out of this convosatione. But i do know that gengar put huge pressure on chansey. The sub fp set destroied chansey most of the time. She would be forced to run psychic for gengar and it wasnt really good for anything else. With no psychic bliss was not able to handle sib gar (or even normal gar if she didnt have twave.). I think this is a classic case of one ban causing another ban. Now we shouldnt keep broken things in order to keep other broken things around but im not too sure that gengar was all that broken in the first place.

 

Gengar was quite problematic, especially the bulky set because taking it out was so hard. When trying to faint it you're usually in the process of sacking one or more pokemon. I'm sure the meta would be better without gengar+chansey. 

[codylramey]

I mean if the community feels as if gengar was indeed a problem with the meta then i would be inclined to agree with them simply because i havent played the meta w/o gengar. But i personally would like to see more discusstion about gengar. Lf JJ bc he flip flopped once i would like to know if he did it again.

[DoubleJ]

Lf JJ bc he flip flopped once i would like to know if he did it again.

 

smh cody, you're such a sweet talker. 

 

The problem with banning Gengar is that it really has two characteristics; defensively it is fairly healthy for the meta by preventing a variety of things from becoming a problem, but the other aspect is that itself is very centralizing and problematic. So really, we just need to assess the current tier for how healthy it is with this suspect ban.

 

I watched the entirety of the PokeMarathon this weekend, and I came away with a couple generalizations.

 

1. Trapping is a very popular and very successful play-style (Dugtrio, Magneton, and CB Pursuit)

 

2. Spikes are extremely common, surprisingly though there isn't a quality spin-blocker and thus they are dropped and removed continuously throughout the match. Remove the spinner and you have a big advantage.

 

3. Gyarados is really shut down by the popularity of Cloyster, with Spikes and Spinning so popular, and also the rise of Ludicolo. Ludi is really a safe defensive option as it is really only threatened by Sludge Bomb Venusaur without Gengar.

 

4. Chansey flat out sits on the tier, acting much like it did in UU by Protecting on CB-locked attackers and walling the entire special side of the tier. An amazing pivot with support opportunities in Aromatherapy and Wish passing. 

 

 

Without Gengar, it appears defensive walls are taking a big jump in usage. Cloyster, Forretress, Ludicolo, Venusaur, Metagross, and Weezing can swap in and out without worry of something setting up on them. Alakazam use makes sense since it can take advantage of the defensive walls, but unfortunately it needs HP Fire to really stop Metagross. The quality of HP Fire Zams are pretty poor, and many were outsped and forced out by fast sweepers like Tauros. 

 

Overall, I liked the freedom I had in team building with physical attackers, but unfortunately they really didn't pay off in practice because of the rise in defensive walls. I felt severely limited in team building because of how common Dugtrio and Skarmory were, and I really couldn't take advantage of CB-locked Dug with Gyarados. Also, I couldn't effectively use Special Sweepers because of Chansey.

 

The meta isn't healthy, nor was the Gengar meta. There really is no solution here aside from picking the lesser of two evils. Right now we need to ban Chansey to make this a better meta than before.
 

[bl0nde]

I don't think gengar has a lot to do with dugtrio. It could be a phase the game is going through to counter any high usage of chansey (and umbreon to a lesser extent). Personally, I always feared dugtrio coming after my chansey so I have a couple of pseudo special walls on my main team. However, as of lately, I even see some gentleman currently not have not a single attack to hit dugtrio on their chansey or a way to deal with special attackers after chansey is gone. It only makes sense to try to trap it. The chansey trend will probably continue for a couple of months until it becomes risky to use chansey. Then people will start running ludicolo and porygon regularly like they used to at the beginning of this meta because those are harder for dugtrio to take out. So I kind of picture that balance swinging back and forth, but I have been known to be totally ignorant.

 

For magneton, there is no doubt that it is popular, but on it also I think nothing to do with gengar.

• We have metagross in high usage. Forretress is one of our best terrain controllers, and skarmory is used as a wall - all trapped by a fast magneton.
• magneton is the pokemon most impacted by the implementation of choosable hidden powers so far. By what I've seen, 65%+ of magnetons are HP fire now.
• Lots of switch ins on special walls due to resistences to toxic, ice/thunder, etc.

For the meta in general, I'd like for it to be different in available options. We just don't have a lot of pokemon to work with in certain roles. There are only a handful of spikers and spinners and some are not very viable. Our only viable spin blocker is dusclops now. Ideally, I'd like to have a pokemon that was viable and was between dusclops and gengar in terms centralization and impact on the metagame. Thus, I am kind of indifferent on the gengar decision at the end of the day. I feel both metas have their quirks.

Edited September 28, 2015 by bl0nde

[Robofiend]

Zebra already pointed this out (somewhere) but if you look at the usage between now/then, Dugtrio/Magneton haven't really become more/less common. They've just become more effective now because before they were a bit superfluous: Gengar could smash walls all day, especially with Ursaring as support. Dugtrio was just as good at killing chanseys pre-ban as it is now. Honestly I only saw 2 Dugtrio teams yesterday and almost every team had Chansey. I think that speaks to how viable and how meta-defining each poke is.