Arimanius Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Yeah I agree magneton is really useful now to trap skarmory which people use to stop the normal and ground spam and also help a lot in stall teams against chansey, umbreon or porygon2 since it can't be toxiced or paralyzed with twave but it was also useful before even for gengar, for me stall became more viable indeed but not to make it too op but yeah balance lose against it or at least I didn't see balance winning yesterday against stall in any case gbwead 1 Link to comment
codylramey Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I have always said that magneton was good. Even in the bliss lax meta (just no room for him bc needed 3 lax counters). Dugtrio is underwhelming as a cb poke tho imo. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 It appears OU is all stall, ew DrCraig and KaynineXL 2 Link to comment
Arimanius Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 It appears OU is all stall, ew It is now or at least the majority of good players right now go through that way (That's exactly what I saw in last OU) Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 It appears OU is all stall, ew Blissey was so stall it was anti-stall. Snorlax broke stall by setting up Curse on it. Gengar was definitely anti-stall. So ya... if only Ursaring wasn't hit by absolutely everything under the sun. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 So ya... if only Ursaring wasn't hit by absolutely everything under the sun. Ursaring was my hope for stallbreaker of choice.. but it seems like it just can't clean out a stall team without taking life-ending amounts of damage in the process, especially if it takes status or has to work around spikes. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Ursaring was my hope for stallbreaker of choice.. but it seems like it just can't clean out a stall team without taking life-ending amounts of damage in the process, especially if it takes status or has to work around spikes. Inb4 Resto-Chesto with the sacrifice of Earthquake. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Inb4 Resto-Chesto with the sacrifice of Earthquake. It could work, but Ursa just takes so much damage from common walls, not to mention without passive recovery spikes just become a huge liabilty to protect against. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Machamp/hariyama are notable mentions for stall breaking, with their guts ability and greater bulk than ursaring. They pair quite well with marowak who can nuke through skarm/weezing/slowbro pretty easily. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Machamp/hariyama are notable mentions for stall breaking, with their guts ability and greater bulk than ursaring. They pair quite well with marowak who can nuke through skarm/weezing/slowbro pretty easily. Implying Psychic/Drill Peck isn't super effective anymore: 0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 102-120 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 116-140 (58.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Machamp: 90-108 (45.6 - 54.8%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO 0 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 216-254 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO That doesn't take Bulk-Up boosts into consideration, but it should show you that fighting types can't just "nuke their way" through Slowbro. Marowak is good, especially against Slowbro, but it notice that: +2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 184-217 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO +2 252 Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery So Marowak has to be Adamant, meaning it doesn't have the speed to beat Venusaur or take advantage of other slow pokes. Like the other attackers, it seems like Marowak also has trouble switching in and staying healthy with Spikes, a lack of resistances and no reliable recovery. Arimanius, Draekyn and DoubleJ 3 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Implying Psychic/Drill Peck isn't super effective anymore: 0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 102-120 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 116-140 (58.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Machamp: 90-108 (45.6 - 54.8%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO 0 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 216-254 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO That doesn't take Bulk-Up boosts into consideration, but it should show you that fighting types can't just "nuke their way" through Slowbro. Marowak is good, especially against Slowbro, but it notice that: +2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 184-217 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO +2 252 Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery So Marowak has to be Adamant, meaning it doesn't have the speed to beat Venusaur or take advantage of other slow pokes. Like the other attackers, it seems like Marowak also has trouble switching in and staying healthy with Spikes, a lack of resistances and no reliable recovery. With these calcs in mind, the Slowbro + Arcanine defensive core is incredibly strong in this new meta. Like honestly, what outside of UU Crawdaunt can break it that isn't absolutely man-handled by the other common pokes in the OU tier? Robofiend 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 +6 252 Atk Charizard Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 184-218 (91 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO +6 252+ Atk Charizard Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 202-238 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO Instantdrum zard new wallbreaker. Shame that schwampert is there as well, but regardless, such Zard does pretty well. Generally there are ways of playing through stall and if not for the fact that breeding one poke takes me a week, I'd gladly show that on some tournaments. Tip: Belly Drum is a very nice move Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 +6 252 Atk Charizard Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 184-218 (91 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO +6 252+ Atk Charizard Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 202-238 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO Instantdrum zard new wallbreaker. Shame that schwampert is there as well, but regardless, such Zard does pretty well. Generally there are ways of playing through stall and if not for the fact that breeding one poke takes me a week, I'd gladly show that on some tournaments. Tip: Belly Drum is a very nice move With the hope that you can pull off a Belly Drum on Arcanine with Sitrus Berry and not encounter something faster such as Aerodactyl or Jolteon to revenge kill you on Turn 2 (Need EQ to beat Arcanine). IMO, Arc is actually a reasonable counter to Charizard and can prevent it from using Belly Drum. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
codylramey Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 What about solar beam zard? Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 What about solar beam zard? Arcanine absolutely poops on that. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
JSTUD Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) It appears OU is all stall, ew Who would have guessed banning the best wallbreaker would lead the OU meta down this path. Oh wait, I did. Edited September 22, 2015 by JSTUD suigin, JayMetaGod, DoubleJ and 3 others 6 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Who would have guessed banning the best wallbreaker would lead the OU meta down this path. Oh wait, I did. By this path, you mean the path of a healthier OU meta? Then so did ou tier council and all the people that voted for banning gengar. JayMetaGod and DrCraig 2 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 By this path, you mean the path of a healthier OU meta? Then so did ou tier council and all the people that voted for banning gengar. Well our OU will never truly be healthy. We just have to live with that. We've banned the dominating forces in the tier that were overly centralizing, but now we have a tier that is dominated by stall. To some people a stall heavy tier is less healthy than a centralizing tier with dominant wallbreakers. And to some, like you, a tier dominated by one team archetype is more healthy because there is less centralization. To each their own, and in the meantime OU will be OU. Arimanius 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 People complain about stall? Well we got a Dragonite, Salamence and Tyranitar in ubers tier... :) [spoiler]pls respond[/spoiler] Also instantdrum Zard does carry EQ with it, and it does oneshot Arc. ESpeed won't do 75% after sitrus for sure. 4 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 40-48 (25.9 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO +5 252 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 248-292 (125.8 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO If you are running stall then only defensive Swampert can withstand it. DrCraig and Kiliminati 2 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 People complain about stall? Well we got a Dragonite, Salamence and Tyranitar in ubers tier... :) [spoiler]pls respond[/spoiler] Also instantdrum Zard does carry EQ with it, and it does oneshot Arc. ESpeed won't do 75% after sitrus for sure. 4 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 40-48 (25.9 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO +5 252 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 248-292 (125.8 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO If you are running stall then only defensive Swampert can withstand it. Definitely no to that sp def boosted tyranitar. Dragonite/salamence are on pretty similar levels of centralization as gengar imo, requiring people to run ~2 pokemon that can take their attacks and another pokemon or two that can outspeed them and revenge kill, which people seem to not mind with gengar. There are a lot of ways to break stall, but people were so spoiled with overpowered pokemon that could break stall on their own. It was like rhydon in UU that could crush every wall into a pulp, and could pretty much run whatever else you wanted with rhydon since it put so much pressure on walls. Obviously one ursaring on its own won't beat stall since stall usually prepares for one or two wallbreakers, but if you run two or three of the following pokemon, charizard/ursaring/swampert/machamp/hariyama/marowak/heracross/metagross, then offensive teams will obviously beat defensive teams, assuming minimal rng on each side and equally skilled playing. People are quite assuming when it comes to the OU meta. They're quick to say that offense isn't viable, but not many have even tried running it. I ran offense a few times in the post gengar ban tournaments and it was pretty easy to run. Obviously running offense is more risky since you have a worse match up vs balanced/offense, but you have a better match up vs stall teams, which are the common archetype currently. Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 4 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 40-48 (25.9 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO +5 252 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 248-292 (125.8 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO If you are running stall then only defensive Swampert can withstand it. Yes this beats Arcanine and stall, but stall usually has a fast sweeper to clean up after your team has been crippled. Charizard with Sitrus Berry is just fodder for Jolteon or Aero revenge kills. Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 People are quite assuming when it comes to the OU meta. They're quick to say that offense isn't viable, but not many have even tried running it. I ran offense a few times in the post gengar ban tournaments and it was pretty easy to run. Obviously running offense is more risky since you have a worse match up vs balanced/offense, but you have a better match up vs stall teams, which are the common archetype currently. It's not much assuming, you just have to sit down and watch what happens. Usage statistics also paint a very beautiful picture. Of the 24 Pokemon with 10% or higher usage in OU... 13 are classic walls (54%) 16 can easily be considered walls (67%; includes Metagross, Magneton, and SpDef Gardevoir) Of the 13 Pokemon with 20% or higher usage in OU... 9 can be considered walls (69%) With this in mind, it's evident that defensive play is highly favored in PokeMMO and when you watch defensive play in action in the current meta, it overpowers not only Balanced teams (like it's supposed to), but also Hyper Offensive teams. This is mostly because we lack any dominant wall breakers. Machamp and Hariyama have a difficult time in the tier with a Choice Band, this is mostly due to Protect being quite popular and their typically offensive options being easy to play around. Marowak is an excellent option, but it faces a speed dilemma and takes damage from nearly the entire tier. All of these are also easily revenge killed by late-game sweepers like Starmie, Aerodactyl, and even Jolteon. But I digress, because I recognize that the OU tier is so restricted by our lack of legendaries and by the difficulty to create comps. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Oh wait, I did. I did too (eventually I voted against it) but the test is at least a good verification of your original arguments. You'd have to be a bit blind (imo) to look at the current OU meta and say "yeah that's healthy" - although Gengar at 50% usage is a bit troubling. Also @JJ pls don't do the "OU will never be healthy" thing, I know it's tempting but we gotta have hope Edited September 23, 2015 by Robofiend JSTUD 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Also @JJ pls don't do the "OU will never be healthy" thing, I know it's tempting but we gotta have hope It's too late brah, the tier just isn't deep enough. We lack the defensive powerhouses to handle the offensive powerhouses, and once you remove the offensive powerhouses standard defenses dominate. Who knows though. Robofiend and Arimanius 2 Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 paying 200k to someone who can name a pokemon able to safely switch in against banded blaziken with equake, fire blast (weezing), thunderpunch and superpower. -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 100-118 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 99-117 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Link to comment
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