[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[Arimanius]

yeah in fact robo post is perfect there's nothing to argue there I agree dug should leave but so should chansey it's just stupid u can't even fucking stall a chansey without mean look or block or without another chansey and battles of 50+ mins

[DrCraig]

First of all i dont know about usage stats etc and i dont really have alot to say since ive only came back to pokemmo a few weeks ago

 

but basicly what people are saying is get rid of dugtrio first so that physical attackers like heracross ursaring etc etc get a chance to come in safely on chansey without the fear of gettin trapped??( dont get me wrong i agree i wanna get rid of dugtrio as well)

But this still doesnt change the fact that special sweepers are almost completely useless cause of this boring blob

 

Im just saying this from my experience but i fukin hate OU atm. Chansey requires no skill, it can come in on any special attacker and i find it frustrating that i cant properly use my special sweepers.<--- this is what bothers me the most

So ye im really disliking OU atm and i think chansey is the one making it boring as hell..

And natural cure... OMG

I don't see how removing Chansey is going to make special attacker that much more viable. Everybody thinks Chansey is suppressing the whole fucking spectrum of special attacker but it really isn't. Dugtrio traps every special wall the same right now whether it be Chansey, Umbreon, or Porygon2. If Chansey is removed, I don't see why we would stop running Dugtrio, there really is no reason. Dugtrio is helping special attackers right now, and still will if Chansey is gone, just with different walls being trapped. Chansey will eventually have to be dealt with, but to me Dugtrio is the most problematic.

Edited December 8, 2015 by DrCraig

[bl0nde]

To be fair, you have to present this information as a council if you're going to use natural cure as a ban reason:

Picture battling king bowser (or any smart player) @ Flygon, Metagross, Venusaur, Umbreon, etc. King bowser realizes that you (the opponent) have a slowbro and that you are trying to calm mind up. For that reason, he switches in metagross and venusaur on toxic attempts so that umbreon stays fresh for slowbro and doesn't use any of its heal bells. The math to it is if you only have 1 toxic user that you're comfortably able to switch in, you have to hit umbreon about ~55% of the time or you lose the PP stall game as far as status: 16 toxic PP vs. 8 heal bells and assuming 1 or 2 of your toxics will miss.

 

At first some players will just try to simply take out chansey and replace it with pory2 or umbreon - that won't work for every team. In that way, yes, many umbreons/pory2's will fall to status at the beginning of a ban and you some persons will probably come in here and type "yes, it is much easier". However, In the long run, some people will mimic a "status blocker" strategy of some sort like I describe above.

 

To be fair, the "natural cure" argument is valid, there is no doubt that a toxic or parahax can kill anything if the situation, RNG, and timing is right. However, if you're going to discuss that you have to point out status blockers (venusaur/metagross/weezing/swampert for t-wave etc) are often used to cover for teams that arn't using chansey - especially when your #1 usage (metagross) is a toxic absorber. Not only that, but also consider for status wars umbreon's synchronize isn't a bad ability - being able to switch in your umbreon at the right moment to synchronize burn a W-o-W weezing or bounce toxic back on arcanine. That can be worth a lot if there is no cleric to help weezing or arcanine. With chansey you see chansey switch in and you know that toxic or toss is coming, you switch out. There is no prediction needed and you can arguably even get by without a cleric. With umbreon, it can switch in anytime and synchronize you. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by bl0nde

[DrCraig]

To be fair, you have to present this information as a council if you're going to use natural cure as a ban reason:

 

I don't know what you mean by present, but it's pretty clear that because of Chansey's NC, it doesn't have to play as a cleric. Chansey has flexibility just because it is a status sponge and that is unmatched. Is this presented nice or does the community need their hand held through what NC is so damn good? NC wouldn't warrant a ban alone, it is only a factor.

 

Picture battling king bowser (or any smart player) @ Flygon, Metagross, Venusaur, Umbreon, etc. King bowser realizes that you (the opponent) have a slowbro and that you are trying to calm mind up. For that reason, he switches in metagross and venusaur on toxic attempts so that umbreon stays fresh for slowbro and doesn't use any of its heal bells. The math to it is if you only have 1 toxic user that you're comfortably able to switch in, you have to hit umbreon about ~55% of the time or you lose the PP stall game as far as status: 16 toxic PP vs. 8 heal bells and assuming 1 or 2 of your toxics will miss.

 

Toxic also isn't just a stalling strategy to beat PP and play slow as shit. Toxic clears a lot of room for sweepers since they ultimately increase damage yield and hurt healing. I like that you point out alternatives to running a cleric or a NC sponge, such as Metagross/Venu, regardless of what your argument was. There are other ways to sponge status, but Chansey is just a guaranteed heal. If status like toxic and burn didn't need to deal with Chansey it potentially makes room for sweepers to come in sweep in the same way spikes help decrease wall/counter durability.

 

At first some players will just try to simply take out chansey and replace it with pory2 or umbreon - that won't work for every team. In that way, yes, many umbreons/pory2's will fall to status at the beginning of a ban and you some persons will probably come in here and type "yes, it is much easier". However, In the long run, some people will mimic a "status stall" strategy of some sort like I describe above.

 

To be fair, the "natural cure" argument is valid, there is no doubt that a toxic or parahax can kill anything if the situation, RNG, and timing is right. However, if you're going to discuss that you have to point out status blockers (venusaur/metagross/weezing/swampert for t-wave etc) are often used to cover for teams that arn't using chansey - especially when your #1 usage (metagross) is a toxic absorber. Not only that, but also consider for status wars umbreon's synchronize isn't a bad ability - being able to switch in your umbreon at the right moment to synchronize burn a W-o-W weezing or bounce toxic back on arcanine. That can be worth a lot if there is no cleric to help weezing or arcanine. With chansey you see chansey switch in and you know that toxic or toss is coming, you switch out. There is no prediction needed and you can arguably even get by without a cleric. With umbreon, it can switch in anytime and synchronize you. 

 

Yes, all of the status blocker are completely viable, but this is such a bland point. It's just a given really counter really. It's the same as going onto a ban for Zangoose and going 'just block with ghost types.' Not every pokemon is sitting there spamming toxic, or spamming normal in that case. Toxic or Return is only one move and it may be hard to get around the other 3 moveslots. Natural cure ALONG with all of the defensive weapons that Chansey has make it the optimal switch in on status. Chansey can take most hits which a toxic user might deal out otherwise. There are other ways to stop status, but Chansey clearly is a near flawless option to absorb ALL STATUS.

 

And synchronize is not on the same level as NC by any means.

(I honestly don't know what your position is, I'm just saying things)

(And no I didn't just directly compare Chansey straight to Zangoose)

Edited December 8, 2015 by DrCraig

[OldKeith]

Chansey is not banworthy the way I see it. While it can wall the newbies pretty efficiently and for a long time, running it comes at a huge cost, due to its lack of offensive potential. Not only is it ruined by ghost or 51 HP substitutes, but it can be the perfect setup bait for a late game sweep. It does force people to push more on the physical side, but that is just natural in our meta due to the absence of reliable boosting items for special sweepers. As for the healing sets, Softboiled cannot help the teammates that much, while the wish protect variant is vulnerable to spikes damage and is forced into very predictable plays due to the 2 turns it takes for it to heal. Also wish Chansey either lacks a status move or aromatherapy, limiting its options once again.

[Laz]

running it comes at a huge cost, due to its lack of offensive potential. Not only is it ruined by ghost or 51 HP substitutes, but it can be the perfect setup bait for a late game sweep.

I can only think of rhydon being able to setup vs blissey, as seismic toss doesn't break it's sub if it's 220+ hp, but rhydon is too slow to sweep.
 

252 Atk Choice Band Breloom Bullet Seed (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 224-272 (105.6 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 180-213 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

1 protect,  and chansey can maybe beat cb trio. 
4 SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 52-62 (49 - 58.4%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
Unless you wanna go full hp with trio, which will be noticeable ( 154 speed ) and trio will get outsped by tauros / starmie / espeon / flygon / slaking / alakazam / dodrio )
 

4 SpA Chansey Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 39-46 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ( in case of sub/reversal )

Setting up with Blaziken / Sceptile will occur in a paralyzed status ( twave on the switch ), unless lum berry, but then chaney will gladly switch to swampert / arcanine / weezing

 

252 Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 90-108 (45.6 - 54.8%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (

4 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 45-53 (29 - 34.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO ( implying 31hp 31def )

Anyway I think what is urgent for now, is dugtrio and not chansey, as dugtrio can trap/faint almost any physical sweeper less faster than itself.


 

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Lazaro23

[OldKeith]

 

I can only think of rhydon being able to setup vs blissey, as seismic toss doesn't break it's sub if it's 220+ hp, but rhydon is too slow to sweep.
 

252 Atk Choice Band Breloom Bullet Seed (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 224-272 (105.6 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 180-213 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

1 protect,  and chansey can maybe beat cb trio. 
4 SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 52-62 (49 - 58.4%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
Unless you wanna go full hp with trio, which will be noticeable ( 154 speed ) and trio will get outsped by tauros / starmie / espeon / flygon / slaking / alakazam / dodrio )
 

4 SpA Chansey Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 39-46 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ( in case of sub/reversal )

Setting up with Blaziken / Sceptile will occur in a paralyzed status ( twave on the switch ), unless lum berry, but then chaney will gladly switch to swampert / arcanine / weezing

 

252 Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 90-108 (45.6 - 54.8%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (

4 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 45-53 (29 - 34.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO ( implying 31hp 31def )

Anyway I think what is urgent for now, is dugtrio and not chansey, as dugtrio can trap/faint almost any physical sweeper less faster than itself.


 

 

 

 

I doubt breloom is relevant in this ou meta. Chansey will not thunder-wave or toxic you if it is damaged. The thing is, you have to play smartly around it. Venusaur is always a safe check/phazer for chansey. Also if you have a cleric you don't really care about status that much. And if you have a spiker chansey will have a rougher time coming in. Of course if you are unable to exert any pressure chansey will dominate you. But it is not banworthy with nothing going for it except hp and special defense.

[Robofiend]

Chansey is not banworthy the way I see it. While it can wall the newbies pretty efficiently and for a long time, running it comes at a huge cost, due to its lack of offensive potential. Not only is it ruined by ghost or 51 HP substitutes, but it can be the perfect setup bait for a late game sweep. It does force people to push more on the physical side, but that is just natural in our meta due to the absence of reliable boosting items for special sweepers. As for the healing sets, Softboiled cannot help the teammates that much, while the wish protect variant is vulnerable to spikes damage and is forced into very predictable plays due to the 2 turns it takes for it to heal. Also wish Chansey either lacks a status move or aromatherapy, limiting its options once again.

 

That just isn't true, tho. 

 

Pokes that are highly used are generally low-cost, high reward and Chansey is no exception. If you're implying that a near majority of OU players are running something that's a big liability to their team then you're just plain wrong, because in a competitive game people always use the most useful things the most.

 

I'm not saying that this inherently makes Chansey banworthy, but it's clearly good, clearly useful and highly used as such. 

[Albeast33]

The evs aren't important to the argument. Example

 

252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 186-220 (52.1 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 90-106 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I also disagree that chansey covers every special attacker, unlike umbreon. Metal sound magneton 2hkos chansey and chansey only 4hkos with seismic toss. Haunter is immune to chansey's only offense of toxic+seismic toss and can hurt it with sludge bomb/hp fighting or taunt or disable. Misdreavus can set up on chansey either with substitute or the heal bell calm mind set. Fake tears jolteon can pressure chansey a ton, with chansey only able of handling it if its completely full hp, and even then, it can lose with some 50/50s between seismic toss and protect, while jolteon substitutes or attacks. 

 

It is also a generally ridiculous argument to just assume that special attackers should be able to beat a special wall 100% of the time. It would be like complaining that a heracross with no swords dance or guts or choice band isn't capable of beating weezing or skarmory ever (those 3 are omitted to show the complete inbalance of the meta game due to the split and lack of gen 4 items/moves/abilities). 

 

While I understand and agree that it is a ridiculous assumption to make, in this case it is not an assumption. After spectating a few OU matches, the common denominator is a Chansey stalling the game to no end, with no special attackers able to take it out. If a physical attacker comes in, all the Chansey needs to do is switch. It becomes an endless battle of switching in and out of Chansey. 

[Laz]

 

• RacheLucario
• Game Master
• 

Posted 09 June 2015 - 11:33 PM

 

If Blissey ends up being test banned, people may switch to Chansey to take her place as its special walling capabilities are close to identical. If Chansey remains in the meta during a Bliss/Lax test ban, I can't see things changing much more than they did when Snorlax alone was banned as special attackers outside of Gengar are all walled just as hard by Chansey as they are by Blissey, so Chansey should probably be included.

 

It would be nice to see some more variety and special attackers becoming more viable. Without "perfect" special walls, people might have to think a little harder to stop them, and won't be punished so much for using them without a Dugtrio on their team.

At this moment, chansey is a perfect special wall that takes no effort to wall all the special attackers, to heal status, and to counter dugtrio. I don't see why it isn't banworthy as blssey was before. The usage speaks for itself.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ru9AseSNMw1yHdLzg6WBTBPqfvrtJFt1hsGUiizpusI/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Please check for any special attacker on that list, ( on the bottom ) and check its usage since chansey saw the day.
 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Lazaro23

[Robofiend]

At this moment, chansey is a perfect special wall that takes no effort to wall all the special attackers, to heal status, and to counter dugtrio. I don't see why it isn't banworthy as blssey was before. The usage speaks for itself.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ru9AseSNMw1yHdLzg6WBTBPqfvrtJFt1hsGUiizpusI/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Please check for any special attacker on that list, ( on the bottom ) and check its usage since chansey saw the day.
 

 

Eh it's 30% usage.. Also, special attacker usage is low but not super inordinately low 

[OrangeManiac]

I think it's a notable point that Chansey can't really do much back to all of the Pokemon it walls. We really can't ignore this argument. Seismic Toss is a nice move but it doesn't work against anything that has any recovery moves. Chansey can spread status all around the opposing team but opposing cleric makes this really difficult to get anything achieved in the battle.

 

There's just a huge problem.

 

[spoiler]It's more than likely this opposing cleric is also the Chansey.[/spoiler]

[Linken]

just test ban it already since this thread is already over two months old and repeating the same old arguments won't change a thing.

[Liberalisme]

Why don't we just bring back some pokemons (Gengar) in stead of banning everything.

[KaynineXL]

Why don't we just bring back some pokemons (Gengar) in stead of banning everything.

If Gengar came back, Chansey would not be used at all. Umbreon would be the best sp wall and it would put too much pressure. I will say this though, I loved the gengar meta, I'd have it back.

[Liberalisme]

If Gengar came back, Chansey would not be used at all. Umbreon would be the best sp wall and it would put too much pressure. I will say this though, I loved the gengar meta, I'd have it back.

if gengar comes back -> less chanseys -> less dugtrio's. :). Umbreon is just setup bait for Guts users and other physical sweepers so I don't think that will be a problem at all. Edited December 9, 2015 by Liberalisme

[KaynineXL]

if gengar comes back -> less chanseys -> less dugtrio's. :)

but then we got the gengar problem lol

[Liberalisme]

but then we got the gengar problem lol

Got Pursuit trapped easily. Well how the meta currently is is just cancer so I prefer bringing back Gengar in stead of banning even more pokemons.

[KaynineXL]

Got Pursuit trapped easily. Well how the meta currently is is just cancer so I prefer bringing back Gengar in stead of banning even more pokemons.

Not really the point, because people were using bold gengars which give no shits about meta/aero

[BurntZebra]

just test ban it already since this thread is already over two months old and repeating the same old arguments won't change a thing.

The same old arguments still aren't valid either. People speculated special attackers would drop in usage. That never happened. People speculate that Chansey would be the only used special wall. Clearly that didn't happen.

[zteban]

The same old arguments still aren't valid either. People speculated special attackers would drop in usage. That never happened. People speculate that Chansey would be the only used special wall. Clearly that didn't happen.

 

Is not the only used special wall. but in fact, the most popular special wall and the second most popular pokemon in the tier. anyways the decitions are not based on usage, but it help to show how centralized is the meta.

 

by the way, nobody can predict the future, and there are a lot of differents positions, so why cant be test banned? 

[Robofiend]

The same old arguments still aren't valid either. People speculated special attackers would drop in usage. That never happened. People speculate that Chansey would be the only used special wall. Clearly that didn't happen.

 

Well our last usage is more than a month old

[BurntZebra]

Well our last usage is more than a month old

I mean the usage is up to date besides the most recent OU tournament (after dinner OU tournament), so that excuse doesn't really work that much

[Vaeldras]

Test ban this thing already.

Once we prove sp hitters are crap anyway maybe we can also bring back blissey

[BurntZebra]

Test ban this thing already.

Once we prove sp hitters are crap anyway maybe we can also bring back blissey

Blissey is slightly different. It has ice beam/thunderbolt/flamethrower coverage possibilities which can ohko/2hko a lot of the physical attackers that can potentially come in. It also has improved bulk.