[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[DoubleJ]

 

After reviewing the usage statistics and the recent play throughout the PokeMarathon OU Tournament series this past weekend, it has become apparent that Chansey's use in OU is beginning to rise. This is concerning to the Tier Council considering it shares a lot of the same traits as Blissey, which was banned for being unhealthy in the OU tier. It is apparent that Chansey is capable of walling nearly every special attacker in the tier and it has a significant support move-pool to add. It has little concern for status thanks to Natural Cure and Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, and it commonly carries Protect to scout choice banded attacks. 

 

Considering all of this, it is apparent that Chansey is not only a good special wall, but also a generally good wall against the entire OU tier. It can pivot in on many different attacks and can cripple opponents with Toxic and/or Thunder Wave. It can also wear most opponents down with Seismic Toss, considering the only common Ghost-type currently is Dusclops. Unfortunately Dusclops cannot stand up to Chansey without sacrificing valuable support options for a move like Focus Punch. Dusclops is also susceptible to Toxic. Wish passing is a successful strategy, but there is concern that Chansey is capable of doing this too well thanks to its impressive defensive traits. Currently it seems that Chansey is just "too good not to use". 

 

With all of this in mind, the Tier Council is discussing a possible Quick Ban on Chansey. This Quick Ban will take place alongside a possible ban on Gengar from OU, which has been under discussion for quite some time. The thinking behind banning Chansey along with Gengar is because Gengar is able to pressure Chansey in multiple ways. It is immune to Chansey's only form of offense (Seismic Toss + Toxic) thanks to its Ghost/Poison-typing, and it can obtain a free Substitute with most switch-ins. Gengar really hurts Chansey usage and without a check like Gengar in the tier, Chansey can and has risen to the top of the defensive pyramid. 

 

Although, the Tier Council does not want to make a rash decision based on our discussion alone, and thus we would like to see feedback from the community regarding Chansey and whether it may be unhealthy for the OU tier should Gengar be banned. 

 

 

Common Sets:

 

Wish

Nature: Bold

Ability: Natural Cure

Item: Leftovers

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Defense or 252 Defense / 252 SpDef

• Wish
• Protect
• Seismic Toss
• Toxic / Thunder Wave

 

Cleric 

Nature: Bold

Ability: Natural Cure

Item: Leftovers

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Defense or 252 Defense / 252 SpDef

• Seismic Toss
• Toxic / Thunder Wave
• Softboiled
• Aromatherapy

 

[BenGorgon]

I think it is worth noting both the CM set which may be coming back into use, as it can easily setup against nearly any special attacker, and can sort of contend with Metal Sound Mag / Fake Tears Jolt, and the Snatch variant that makes it much more difficult for Dugtrio to trap it.  

[RysPicz]

Please add it: Hyper voice goes now through sub, meaning that subrev Dugtrio that earlier was THE bane of Chansey, now is useless. And I belive this is the biggest reasons of Chansey's spike in usage.

[OrangeManiac]

Please add it: Hyper voice goes now through sub, meaning that subrev Dugtrio that earlier was THE bane of Chansey, now is useless. And I belive this is the biggest reasons of Chansey's spike in usage.

I personally find Hyper Voice Chansey as gimmicky as Hail.

[KaynineXL]

I'l start by comparing Blissey and Chansey.

 

Blissey gets a slight increase in HP and big chunk of Sp def. Not only this, but one of the biggest factors in their difference in my opinion is that Blissey gets that 75 Sp atk, which lets it use special abilities effectively where as Chansey can't really use them since its Sp attack is very poor.

 

With Blissey, it's not as easy to come in on with the guts users/Cbers/Wall breakers because that 75 Special attack lets it use Flame thrower, ice beam, Tbolt which can sting those Pokemon such as Heracross, Flygon, Gyarados and others. With Chansey, you pretty much know it's either going to Siesmic toss, toxic, Twave.. or even wish. It's not as punishing, in fact it can even help those guts users.

 

That said, although they do have a similar role which can stop all Sp attackers, just the fact Chansey is easier to come in on makes it much easier to deal with than Blissey.

 

I don't think Chansey should be banned.

[DoubleJ]

Please add it: Hyper voice goes now through sub, meaning that subrev Dugtrio that earlier was THE bane of Chansey, now is useless. And I belive this is the biggest reasons of Chansey's spike in usage.

 

Well to be fair, Hyper Voice acts a lot similarly to Hail on Blissey, but it doesn't carry the added benefit of working as consistent weather damage. Carrying Hyper Voice ultimately hurts Chansey's ability to support its team. I'd rather run the 20% risk of Dugtrio being on my opponent's team than suffer from 4MSS. 

[BurntZebra]

Please add it: Hyper voice goes now through sub, meaning that subrev Dugtrio that earlier was THE bane of Chansey, now is useless. And I belive this is the biggest reasons of Chansey's spike in usage.

I haven't seen anyone run hyper voice Chansey. If you suspect a dugtrio, then switch to metagross vs espeon/swampert vs jolteon etc. Chansey is already pressured a ton on what it can do with 4 moveslots.

[KaynineXL]

I haven't seen anyone run hyper voice Chansey. If you suspect a dugtrio, then switch to metagross vs espeon/swampert vs jolteon etc. Chansey is already pressured a ton on what it can do with 4 moveslots.

I'v seen someone run it. I do agree, Chansey already has some pretty important moves it needs. Maybe if you run Softboil or Wish/Hyper Voice/Siesmic/Status move it could work.

 

Sacrificing Protect/Aroma could be costly though, especially if your opponent don't even run Dug. Then again, if you do get trapped.. Losing Chansey could be even more costly.

Edited October 1, 2015 by KaynineXL

[RysPicz]

Play without wall special

I do play without special wall. In fact, lately I play without walls at all

 

Honestly, I think it would be cool if we would also know the usage stats of OU marathon. Please?

[BurntZebra]

Usage since people don't look at gengar thread:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b2lMHHCPQdhyhHw-HXbGikwMGQTaklkArsYrfDYwnRk/edit

[RysPicz]

I have better solution. Unban TTar, Dragonite and Salamence, problems with lax and bliss will also disappear... :v

Or let's ban all walls so we can fight with sweepers like true gladiators.

We can also ban all sweepers and hard hitters so we can all dive into lovely stall.

 

I think I've listed all dumb ideas, now can we please discuss Chansey. I'd love to see some discussion before I will make my own post, rather than useless posts about "banning sdef walls" and stuff like that. If you don't want Chansey to be removed from OU and don't see it as cancer, post convincing arguments.

 

E:

Thanks Zeb =]

 

E2:

 

mfw no Yanma and Seaking, but there is Hariyama that I did use in the same match. Weird

Edited October 1, 2015 by RysPicz

[OrangeManiac]

Here's basically what I feel about Chansey.
[spoiler]

I'm going to write "X" if Chansey "walls" something and "+" if the pokemon can 2HKO it.

 

Metagross +

Arcanine X

Weezing X

Flygon + 

Chansey X

Porygon2 X

Ludicolo X

Magneton X (no one just keeps Chansey in after it uses Metal Sound)

Venusaur X

Aerodactyl X - RS is 3HKO

Starmie X

Slowbro X

Skarmory X

Gyarados X

Swampert + (assuming CB)

Dugtrio +

Cloyster X

Jolteon X

Forretress X 

Heracross + 

Dusclops X

Gardevoir X

Vaporeon X

Ursaring +

 

[/spoiler]

A pokemon which walls 75% of the metagame, has access to the best two utility moves in the game, a tier which is full of viable Intimidate users. The list of the Pokemon that can 2HKO Pokemon like Flygon, Heracross are hard walled by Weezing. The only Pokemon that by default steals the momentum from Chansey, is Metagross. I wouldn't want to even talk about Dugtrio; A meta which requires to use trappers is already a bad one in my eyes. If Weezing didn't exist would Chansey be considered that good? Probably not. This leads to the problem of a broken core more than a broken Pokemon. However, in case of a broken core the problem to me is more unhealthiness than Defensive/Support Ubers. If a defensive teambuild by default has the same two Pokemon I find it to be really unhealthy. Meanwhile restricting teambuild by walling such a significant portion of the metagame tells me that if there was something to blame of a broken core, it's Chansey. In order to a core to be broken (unhealthy), usage statistics really would need to indicate this. 34.13% Weezing usage and 30.95% Chansey usage shows just that it's getting there.

TL;DR You cannot talk about Chansey if you don't talk about Weezing. However, Chansey being the Pokemon that actually walls the significant portion of metagame makes it to be the reason of this core working so well.

Edit: Yeah, I have to agree with Zebra that 30% usage isn't quite enough to reason for unhealthiness.

Edited October 1, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[BurntZebra]

Pretty much my opinions on chansey taken from tier council thread. Most of these are in response to other posts but still make enough sense on their own. (giant walls of text posted over the last 2-3 days)

 

 

I'm not really sure about banning chansey. I mean it seems like an option, but there will still be other special walls that make special attackers not viable. Porygon2 will still shut down tons of special attackers. Kangaskhan or umbreon can still wish pass (ok maybe kangaskhan is a stretch but w/e) and wall the special attackers still. I don't really think natural cure is banworthy, assuming that chansey is pretty much on par with porygon2 with what it can wall/do in return. If chansey is banned, jolteon/starmie/other special attackers won't be that viable still, and the special wall diversity is already here for the most part, with people running special wall porygon2/chansey/arcanine/venusaur/ludicolo/umbreon. 

 

 

 

 

Well the thing with the coverage is that even if you drop a coverage move, chances are return will hit the pokemon harder than chanseys seismic toss. A flygon or specially defensive venusaur don't exactly like taking a stab return, both doing more than a seismic toss. Seismic toss is also a 4hko on magneton, assuming you run 76 hp evs at least, which is not a lot to be honest. If you're assuming people are going to switch out chansey when it goes to -sp def, you have to assume that they have something that can take a thunderbolt or hp grass/ice. Not a whole lot of pokemon can take both of those, especially when you're already running chansey as a special wall. If you can knock out a flygon while chansey switches out, then jolteon is still being a viable pokemon, even if it is then walled by chansey. 

 

I still think misdreavus has a ton of potential, considering the perish trap set can pretty much trap any pokemon without fail, but also fearing the calm mind set where you have to worry about thunderbolt/shadow ball/hp fire/fighting/psychic coverage moves. Aerodactyl most likely won't risk switching in vs a misdreavus when it can easily stay in, tank a hit, then ohko with a +1 thunderbolt, or metagross where it is outsped and is 3hko'ed by +1 shadow ball, and can't ohko with meteor mash or pursuit. 

I'd say it depends on the cm special attacker. If its a special attacker that has some sort of recovery, then it does quite well vs chansey. Especially if its a pokemon with synchronize, since chansey loses most match ups when its trying to take on a calm minder while toxic'ed. Chansey is an exact replica of blissey except it has less hp/def/sp atk/sp def/speed and is pretty much restricted to 6 moves. 

That argument can be made for porygon2 though lmao. Porygon isnt 2hko'ed by metagross/arcanine/weezing/chansey/porygon2/ludicolo/magneton/venusaur/aerodactyl/starmie/slowbro/gyarados/cloyster/jolteon/forretress/dusclops/gardevoir/vaporeon. So ban porygon2 too? 

 

I think you guys are overestimating seismic toss. Porygon2 is better than chansey in multiple ways since its not a free switch in for physical attackers since they have to worry about return/thunderbolt/ice beam/shadow ball/psychic/hp fire/thunder wave etc. Seismic toss is better vs some pokemon, but a lot worse than boltbeam coverage vs pokemon like flygon/aerodactyl/gyarados/starmie/slowbro etc. 

 

>Being immune to toxic. Last time I checked, chansey isn't immune to toxic and is pretty crippled by it. In the ou tournament on sunday, I toxic'ed a chansey while it switched in, seismic tossed it, then went to heracross, absorbed the toxic, and then ko'ed chansey with pursuit, thanks to toxic damage pressuring it a ton. If we were to ban status absorbers, we better ban starmie, since it can switch in vs a lot of toxic users and recover off damage and switch out to heal its status. 

 

I still don't believe a pokemon with 30% usage is "centralizing" as compared to blissey/snorlax that were anywhere from 50-80% usage. 

 

 

 

I'm not saying chansey is super healthy for the meta, but its no unhealthier than porygon2 either. But since you're looking for specifics, chansey is pretty much the only cleric left in OU. It allows for defensive/balanced teams to not get crushed by rain dance sweepers. It causes diversity with all the different counters it has (I won't list them since I listed them previously in this thread) and promotes the use of some lesser seen OU pokemon like venusaur, machamp, hariyama, marowak, etc. 

 

Another thing to consider is will the meta actually be healthier if chansey is banned? Jolteon will see even less usage as porygon2 stops it even harder, and anyone who has an idea of what is viable, will run porygon2. There aren't that many special sweepers in gen 3 even, just because the lack of choice scarf/specs/life orb/nasty plot. Starmie still sees a decent amount of usage with chansey since it has a pretty unique niche as a rapid spinner with instant recovery+natural cure and fairly nice speed/special attack. Calm minders won't be any more viable, as porygon2 and umbreon both 2hko the more threatening ones like espeon and alakazam. Metagross is also a huge threat to calm minders not named slowbro. 

 

Toxic stall isn't really a good argument to claim chansey is unhealthy. Any wall can spread toxic to a lot of different pokemon, or any status for that matter. You can either run a cleric user, a guts user, a poison type, a steel type, or just run enough offense to not let walls toxic you all day. 

 

I won't really make an argument about wish umbreon since its pretty bad and shouldn't even be used in OU, with or without chansey in the meta. But let's take vaporeon for example. I wouldn't say vaporeon is banworthy even though it can wish+protect to scout for moves and toxic stall with protect, just like umbreon wasn't banworthy in UU, with the wish+protect+toxic combination.

 

 

 Well I won't bother replying to most of the post since I don't think we will ever reach a conclusion but I'll reply to the tl;dr.

 

 

To be honest, natural cure isn't that important. Like you said, most stuff doesn't really run toxic, since people run several toxic immunities and I ran into a lot of people who ran starmie and chansey together. Burns aren't that crippling to pokemon that are special attackers or immune to it (arcanine). Typing, we've been over this. Porygon2 shares the same typing and its a pretty great typing in gen 3 where there's no super effective special attack to threaten them. But being a normal type wall isn't banworthy, unless we're planning on banning porygon2 since its normal typing and has similar usage (would most definitely be higher if chansey was banned, and would be much more centralizing). The strength of a special wall. I don't really see a huge difference between chansey getting 6hko'ed by starmie while porygon2 is 5hko'ed (or any other special wall for that matter, except venusaur since dat psychic weakness), since they both have instant recovery.

 

I also believe you're exaggerating its cleric abilities. Firstly, it can't really afford to run wish+aroma on one set, especially since a lot of the arguments have been that protect+seismic toss+toxic deal with a lot its counters. So let's just forget about aroma at the moment, since softboiled chansey just loses a lot worse to choice banders than wish/protect. I feel like there are a lot of assumptions when you're talking about wish passes. There are so many situations where chansey needs to recover its health and can't actually wish pass to something else. There are also situations where chansey tries to heal itself, but when its the turn where chansey protects, the pokemon sent out is a boosting physical attacker. Chansey at this point can't protect without risk of dealing with a +2 ursaring/marowak or +1 atk/def fighting type, or it will remain at a low hp and be forced to switch out, and has to be extremely careful about switching in again, and then even if it gets in, wishing again can lead to the same situation before. 

 

Basically most of my arguments about chansey are that banning chansey won't really make the meta any more healthier since special attackers won't get any more viable and that chansey isn't really that op at stopping anything, since all the other special walls can do it as well and have actual offensive capabilities (except umbreon)

 

 

I strongly disapprove of a quick ban on the basis of an unhealthy characteristic. It makes no sense from a tiering standpoint. A gengar suspect test meta is not the same meta we will have after the gengar ban. A quick ban should not be based off another pokemons suspect test.

[KaynineXL]

Here's basically what I feel about Chansey.
[spoiler]

 

[/spoiler]

A pokemon which walls 75% of the metagame, has access to the best two utility moves in the game, a tier which is full of viable Intimidate users. The list of the Pokemon that can 2HKO Pokemon like Flygon, Heracross are hard walled by Weezing. The only Pokemon that by default steals the momentum from Chansey, is Metagross. I wouldn't want to even talk about Dugtrio; A meta which requires to use trappers is already a bad one in my eyes. If Weezing didn't exist would Chansey be considered that good? Probably not. This leads to the problem of a broken core more than a broken Pokemon. However, in case of a broken core the problem to me is more unhealthiness than Defensive/Support Ubers. If a defensive teambuild by default has the same two Pokemon I find it to be really unhealthy. Meanwhile restricting teambuild by walling such a significant portion of the metagame tells me that if there was something to blame of a broken core, it's Chansey. In order to a core to be broken (unhealthy), usage statistics really would need to indicate this. 34.13% Weezing usage and 30.95% Chansey usage shows just that it's getting there.

TL;DR You cannot talk about Chansey if you don't talk about Weezing. However, Chansey being the Pokemon that actually walls the significant portion of metagame makes it to be the reason of this core working so well.

Edit: Yeah, I have to agree with Zebra that 30% usage isn't quite enough to reason for unhealthiness.

Just because Chansey can wall something, doesn't mean it can fight it.

 

For instance, staying in against Aero could be risky. One flinch and it could be costly, Chansey doesn't wall it reliably enough. Weezing is immune to toxic and Chansey is no threat to it, pain split would shit on Chansey's high health pool. Venusaur also immune to toxic and will out stall Chansey with ease with leech seed. Skarmory gets to spike for a seismic, could be worth if they have no spinner. Gyarados played right could be dangerous, especially if you don't know if the Gyara has sub which could block the status and setup and then flinches could be scary as well.

 

I know that list is just saying what it walls, but I feel it's trying to make it look like its superior than those in a 1v1 situation when it isn't.

[bl0nde]

-Chansey meeting the defensive characterisitc was mentioned months ago. The response for not banning chansey was that it was too weak offensively. I'd like to see the conversation revolve around whether chansey's special defense capabilities outweigh its lack of offensive presence to the point that this merits a ban for being unhealthy.

 

Things I notice:

As far as usage, Magneton is the 4th most popular special attacker - usage 18.5% on the most recent usage data. Porygon2 is hard to breed and it can't use flamethrower for magneton - you'd need a check or back up. Umbreon can't hurt magneton, it would also need a check or back up too. As far as stand alone special walls, chansey is the best choice due to there generally being a lack of viable options otherwise. The fact that it is cheap (4x31) and easy to breed are also big factors in the current economy for time restraint reasons.

 

Glancing at the usage stats, notice that there are many special attackers we face that are not made to be full out special attackers and they are among the highest in usage: arcanine, weezing, porygon2. Also, slowbro and gardevoir are usually defense invested and have to calm mind to be a threat. The only things on the usage list that are generally pure and powerful special attacking threats for sure are jolteon, sometimes starmie, and magneton. There generally are not many people that send out powerful "choice band" special attackers or anything like that - things that can take 25%+ of chansey's HP every time they switch in. Mostly chansey is blocking off weaker/non invested special attacks by looking at the usage stats.

 

Wish on chansey? It costs a good amount of coin to get it, so it obviously has a purpose, and that is because players need a way to make up for things switching in on chansey so easily. Wishing passing is a method doing this. There are a couple ways to deal with wish chansey - one is by pursuit trapping. My chansey gets in trouble fast while simultaneously facing a slightly bulky pursuit user (metagross/heracross/etc.) and a strong special attacker. This puts chansey doing double duty and can potentially leave chansey below 50% health - at which point it may not have time to recover with wish because it needs 2 free turns. However, I don't see many people using pursuit - maybe 1 in 5. So for me, free switch in/out for chansey. I believe bringing up pursuit trapping as a countermeasure is a valid point because it was regularly used as a method of dealing with dugtrio in discussions. With chansey's low defense stat. it can also be worn down in this way.

 

I can understand why a discussion is taking place, but I would question whether a ban is merited for the reasons above.

[OrangeManiac]

Just because Chansey can wall something, doesn't mean it can fight it.

 

For instance, staying in against Aero could be risky. One flinch and it could be costly, Chansey doesn't wall it reliably enough. Weezing is immune to toxic and Chansey is no threat to it, pain split would shit on Chansey's high health pool. Venusaur also immune to toxic and will out stall Chansey with ease with leech seed. Skarmory gets to spike for a seismic, could be worth if they have no spinner. Gyarados played right could be dangerous, especially if you don't know if the Gyara has sub which could block the status and setup and then flinches could be scary as well.

 

I know that list is just saying what it walls, but I feel it's trying to make it look like its superior than those in a 1v1 situation when it isn't.

 

Oh yeah, should have added Gyara to the section of "Weezing keks on it".

Chansey doesn't need to fight. Its teammates are there for that. I find Wish Chansey the most problematic one.

 

Turn 1: Chansey switches on Special Attacker. *steals momentum*
Turn 2: A Heracross, Flygon, Metagross w/e switches in on Chansey. Chansey Wishes.
Turn 3: *all the selections you can do*

With a correct switch in, such as physical attacker on Chansey should by my competitive understanding give the momentum to the player who made the correct play. However, this is not the case with Wish Chansey. Not only does Weezing switch in any day of the week for so many Chansey's counters, the Chansey's user can choose a Pokemon from the last 4 that counters this physical attacker - get HP back - and steal the momentum from that Pokemon. Especially when this Pokemon that counters this aforementioned Chansey counter is an offensive threat, this momentum shift is insane. Not even a Metagross is safe in this situation against Chansey. A switch to a DD Kingdra, Swampert to absorb the Wish, these are all scenarios where the Chansey user wins.

This is what I find the most broken with Wish Chansey (+ Weezing). It controls the momentum and it doesn't even need to predict for it. I think if there was a characteristics to characterize Chansey the best, it's Support in my opinion. Defensive characteristics kinda seem wrong because plenty of the Pokemon in fact walls Chansey too. The thing is that it helps its teammates to triumph with little or no effort. And if Chansey user does not want to make that effort to Support with a Wish to counter a Pokemon, it can always go to safe gas balls.

Edited October 1, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[KaynineXL]

-Chansey meeting the defensive characterisitc was mentioned months ago. The response for not banning chansey was that it was too weak offensively. I'd like to see the conversation revolve around whether chansey's special defense capabilities outweigh its lack of offensive presence to the point that this merits a ban for being unhealthy.

 

Things I notice:

As far as usage, Magneton is the 4th most popular special attacker - usage 18.5% on the most recent usage data. Porygon2 is hard to breed and it can't use flamethrower for magneton - you'd need a check or back up. Umbreon can't hurt magneton, it would also need a check or back up too. As far as stand alone special walls, chansey is the best choice due to there generally being a lack of viable options otherwise. The fact that it is cheap (4x31) and easy to breed are also big factors in the current economy for time restraint reasons.

 

Glancing at the usage stats, notice that there are many special attackers we face that are not made to be full out special attackers and they are among the highest in usage: arcanine, weezing, porygon2. Also, slowbro and gardevoir are usually defense invested and have to calm mind to be a threat. The only things on the usage list that are generally pure and powerful special attacking threats for sure are jolteon, sometimes starmie, and magneton. There generally are not many people that send out powerful "choice band" special attackers or anything like that - things that can take 25%+ of chansey's HP every time they switch in. Mostly chansey is blocking off weaker/non invested special attacks by looking at the usage stats.

 

Wish on chansey? It costs a good amount of coin to get it, so it obviously has a purpose, and that is because players need a way to make up for things switching in on chansey so easily. Wishing passing is a method doing this. There are a couple ways to deal with wish chansey - one is by pursuit trapping. My chansey gets in trouble fast while simultaneously facing a slightly bulky pursuit user (metagross/heracross/etc.) and a strong special attacker. This puts chansey doing double duty and can potentially leave chansey below 50% health - at which point it may not have time to recover with wish because it needs 2 free turns. However, I don't see many people using pursuit - maybe 1 in 5. So for me, free switch in/out for chansey. I believe bringing up pursuit trapping as a countermeasure is a valid point because it was regularly used as a method of dealing with dugtrio in discussions. With chansey's low defense stat. it can also be worn down in this way.

 

I can understand why a discussion is taking place, but I would question whether a ban is merited for the reasons above.

HP Fire pory is pretty common, which traps mag and kills it.

 

Oh yeah, should have added Gyara to the section of "Weezing keks on it".

Chansey doesn't need to fight. Its teammates are there for that. I find Wish Chansey the most problematic one.

 

Turn 1: Chansey switches on Special Attacker. *steals momentum*
Turn 2: A Heracross, Flygon, Metagross w/e switches in on Chansey. Chansey Wishes.
Turn 3: *all the selections you can do*

With a correct switch in, such as physical attacker on Chansey should by my competitive understanding give the momentum to the player who made the correct play. However, this is not the case with Wish Chansey. Not only does Weezing switch in any day of the week for so many Chansey's counters, the Chansey's user can choose a Pokemon from the last 4 that counters this physical attacker - get HP back - and steal the momentum from that Pokemon. Especially when this Pokemon that counters this aforementioned Chansey counter is an offensive threat, this momentum shift is insane. Not even a Metagross is safe in this situation against Chansey. A switch to a DD Kingdra, Swampert to absorb the Wish, these are all scenarios where the Chansey user wins.

This is what I find the most broken with Wish Chansey (+ Weezing). It controls the momentum and it doesn't even need to predict for it. I think if there was a characteristics to characterize Chansey the best, it's Support in my opinion. Defensive characteristics kinda seem wrong because plenty of the Pokemon in fact walls Chansey too. The thing is that it helps its teammates to triumph with little or no effort. And if Chansey user does not want to make that effort to Support with a Wish to counter a Pokemon, it can always go to safe gas balls.

Firstly, who's to say the Chansey wishes? Secondly, pursuit can do some nice work to Chansey, you either have to protect to lock in cbers or switch to pass the wish. You're building the perfect scenario for Chansey, you can abuse Chansey if you play it right.

 

About Weezing 'keks' on Gyarados...

 

I don't know if this is new policy from tier council, but I remember when someone opened a discussion about blastoise in the old UU talking about how good the combo Blastoise, Plume and Steelix are, and someone (I think was Senile, not sure tho), told that team build isn't a valid argument for bans, the poke itself must be a problem, not a pair or a combo.

 

[bl0nde]

I run weezing and chansey and use a defensive team and I will portray the opposite perspective from orange for readers (much respect for orange but different opinion in this instance):

It isn't simple like that at all. Ursaring for one completely runs over weezing and also weezing does not take out flygon (flygon resists tbolt,flame, and sludge bomb), weezing can only burn flygon.  When defending against flygon, your mind might turn to steels resistsnce from dragon claw stabd, but be cautious because some players keep their magnetons hidden in the last slot - they know you try to use steel to stop dragon claw. Some of these offensive players are well rehearsed with their teams and they know how people tend to defend and are ready for it. So, I'd agree that chansey can help keep your defenders healthy, but they still have to overcome the threat on their own. It's not like chansey gives them the win with a wish pass - especially if you predict wrong switching into the choice band user... you could be down one pokemon easily.

 

I do understand your point though orange and I think it's a matter of perspective. You're thinking "god, i'm trying to break this wall and that thing is wish passing to it". My thought during the duel is opposite "I hope I don't get punished too bad for trying to heal" lol. It's all perspective.

 

btw interesting HP fire porygon tip kaynine.

Edited October 1, 2015 by bl0nde

[lVlusay]

Chansey (nor was Blissey) something that gives you a huge advantages. In fact it gets abused easily: Heracross, Machamp, Ursaring, Metagross and many others. The fact that there is Weezing that can then wall some of them, is non-of Chansey's problem. Then ban Weezing, problem solved. In my opinion is just a good defensive synergy. There are good offensive synergies, why are you trying to eliminate all the good defensive ones? Also, Weezing doesn't really wall any of them. So afraid of Weezing, get facade on Hera and Champ, use psychic on Metagross and Ursaring destroys it anyways. Again, problem solved. Be creative.

[KaynineXL]

If you think Chansey+Weezing is good, then sure.. But instead of pointing out the perfect world, let me tell you about some things it's not good with.

 

Weezing gets shit on by quite a few physical attackers. So you would want to partner it with something. Let's not forget how important spiking/spinning seems to be in this meta(at least I feel it is). So you would want to pair with Skarmory, Forr or Cloy?

 

Weez+Cloy - Neither exactly love coming in on Stab RS from Aero.

Weez+Skarm - Blaziken.

Weez+Forr - Blaziken.

[Robofiend]

I'd like to point out (for like the 5th time) that usage rate =/= unhealthiness, Landorus-I was banned in ORAS OU for being unhealthy (no, not offensively Uber, unhealthy) and its usual usage rate was ~30% (similar to Heatran, Keldeo, Lando-T). 

 

There's more to being unhealthy than just being used way too much: anything that is too good at doing its job can become a problem, as can anything that forces a playstyle on you. In my opinion Chansey is the supreme ruler of special walls right now (compared to others, who have to worry about wasting a moveslot on Heal Bell and don't have NC) and because of its common Wish/Protect scouting trick, can pretty easily rack up residual damage on Choice Banders and setup attackers alike, all while keeping checks to them (Weezing, Skarmory, Slowbrah, Aero, Metagross) healthy enough to keep the slower wallbreakers from doing too much damage. 

 

The main issue I have with Chansey is that while it may be a bit of a blob, it's really really useful in the current OU landscape. Toxic stall is good offense against just about anything not named Metagross (or Skarmory/Forretress) and Wish/Protect gives Chansey the defense it needs to prevent Choice Banders from rolling over it or chipping away at valuable defensive pivots like Arcanine or Weezing. The solution people love to point out is either "run lots of Steel types" or "run Guts users" but what I see a lot of people doing is just running Chansey to prevent the opponent's Chansey from ever using Toxic or Seismic Toss too effectively.

 

Too little emphasis is placed on how useful ST is as well: it wears down any CB-er, and when you combine that with Toxic and Spikes you've got a meta where offense really struggles (in part because a lot of our best sweepers are grounded). When you compare Chansey to other Heal Bell/Wish users or special walls (Vaporeon, Chansey, Lanturn, Jolteon, Umbreon, Espeon), you should notice two things: 

 

1. The other possible clerics all have both Special and Physical weaknesses (prominent ones) and Chansey has no special weaknesses and only one physical weakness, fighting also isn't very common in OU.

2. In order to be as effective as Chansey at doing what Chansey does, these pokemon have to run Wish/Protect/Toxic/Heal Bell (or lose Toxic/Protect and gain an attacking move). In doing so they lose Chansey's unique ability to provide damage output on everything in the game (kek @ Zebra's suggestion that we all run Haunters). 

 

I don't have a problem with Toxic, Stall or Clerics, but I do have a problem with a pokemon who makes using any of those tactics wayyy easier, while stopping offense/hyper offense from being used hardly at all. 

 

TL;DR - while Chansey might not be as highly used as Blissey, I think it's going to start seeing more usage in light of how effective it is. Furthermore, being used isn't the only criterion for the health of anything (not sure how people STILL don't understand this) and you have to look at suspects holistically to see what makes them healthy/unhealthy. I'm not 100% on Chansey, but I have yet to hear a really compelling argument for how it's good for OU: most people opposing Chansey ban just seem to be posting some variation of "YEAH BUT IF YOU USE THIS UNVIABLE/UNCOMMON STRATEGY THEN CHANSEY IS USELESS LOL" @Kanzo smh, suggesting Sub/Flail when Arc is top 5 most used, @K9 suggesting Blaziken who is terminally NU in the OU metagame, for now.

[BenGorgon]

I want to take a quick walk through a meta where no Chansey exists, then state why I think it leads to stagnation. Lets look at the choices for special walls / tanks with all of the blobs out of the picture. 

 

Starting on the Porygon 2 kick-off, if it was so much better as you say Zebra, why aren't more people running it? In some regards it is cheaper to make then a 4x31 Chansey, so long as you have some decent luck when ditto hunting. Sure, it might take a touch longer overall, but lets be honest here, it isn't that difficult. Where Chansey can Cleric and Wish Pass, Pory2 can recover. Where Chansey can switch to a partner for free, Pory2 can hope for an offensive predict or recover. Where Chansey can protect and CB scout, Pory2 can recover. Where Chansey can switch out of Toxic (which is a bigger deal then I think you make it out to be for a cleric/wish pass) Pory2 can.... you guessed it, recover. Pory2 is much more offensively inclined for sure, but it is not nearly as team supporting as Chansey, and not as bulky. 

 

Umbreon on the other hand, can both wish pass, and cleric. The main issue here is serious 4MSS. Not that Umbreon is a bad cleric, it is just totally outclassed by Chansey. Umbreon that is not running Heal Bell is seriously susceptible to Tox, not running Wish and he might as well not be there, not running Tox is serious set-up bait, and not running Pursuit is serious Taunt/Encore bait. Umbreon does have access to instant recovery, but doesn't really have the options available to Chancey offensively to put that to good use.

 

Ludicolo is falls under basically the same things Pory 2 does. While not as susceptible to some Physical Pokes, it is also not a particularly amazing special wall. A good Ludi can stall with Leech Seed / Synth all day, but it is not nearly as hard to crack on the special side, and again, has no way to clear from status itself. Like Pory2, is also a very nice offensive poke under certain conditions. 

 

Gardevoir: What a beast, and its' CM set is something to be feared. Will o' Wisp lets it stay in on some Physical attackers, and paired with Calm nature, a great option. However, Trace is situational, and its best option for solo recovery is Pain Split, which while nice, isn't as good as Recover. Garde can run a Wish set, and do it pretty well, but that leaves its' offensive options limited.

 

Venusaur: See ludicolo above, with a little less offensive viability, and the ability to eat Toxic all day. A great option to be sure, but why use it when Chansey can eat Toxic all day too?

 

Arcanine: Can be run Specially Defensive, and isn't bad. Prone to status and the ever present water types muckin' about. Not a bad option, if Chansey was not around.

 

Basically what I am trying to show here, are at least five Pokemon here that could be used in a specially defensive role but are dangerously outclassed by Chansey. All have their merits, and those could be weighed, countered, and thoughtfully considered without Chansey in OU. As it stands now however, unless you are specifically running a wall n' stall team, there is no reason to use any of these Pokemon over Chansey, and that is why I am leaning toward the opinion it is unhealthy. 

[KaynineXL]

@K9 suggesting Blaziken who is terminally NU in the OU metagame, for now.

I disagree. What. lol

 

 

edit: to stop my post from being removed.

I think we just need to wait a bit, people will see it's actually pretty solid right now.

Edited October 1, 2015 by KaynineXL

[BurntZebra]

I want to take a quick walk through a meta where no Chansey exists, then state why I think it leads to stagnation. Lets look at the choices for special walls / tanks with all of the blobs out of the picture. 

 

Starting on the Porygon 2 kick-off, if it was so much better as you say Zebra, why aren't more people running it? In some regards it is cheaper to make then a 4x31 Chansey, so long as you have some decent luck when ditto hunting. Sure, it might take a touch longer overall, but lets be honest here, it isn't that difficult. Where Chansey can Cleric and Wish Pass, Pory2 can recover. Where Chansey can switch to a partner for free, Pory2 can hope for an offensive predict or recover. Where Chansey can protect and CB scout, Pory2 can recover. Where Chansey can switch out of Toxic (which is a bigger deal then I think you make it out to be for a cleric/wish pass) Pory2 can.... you guessed it, recover. Pory2 is much more offensively inclined for sure, but it is not nearly as team supporting as Chansey, and not as bulky. 

 

Umbreon on the other hand, can both wish pass, and cleric. The main issue here is serious 4MSS. Not that Umbreon is a bad cleric, it is just totally outclassed by Chansey. Umbreon that is not running Heal Bell is seriously susceptible to Tox, not running Wish and he might as well not be there, not running Tox is serious set-up bait, and not running Pursuit is serious Taunt/Encore bait. Umbreon does have access to instant recovery, but doesn't really have the options available to Chancey offensively to put that to good use.

 

Ludicolo is falls under basically the same things Pory 2 does. While not as susceptible to some Physical Pokes, it is also not a particularly amazing special wall. A good Ludi can stall with Leech Seed / Synth all day, but it is not nearly as hard to crack on the special side, and again, has no way to clear from status itself. Like Pory2, is also a very nice offensive poke under certain conditions. 

 

Gardevoir: What a beast, and its' CM set is something to be feared. Will o' Wisp lets it stay in on some Physical attackers, and paired with Calm nature, a great option. However, Trace is situational, and its best option for solo recovery is Pain Split, which while nice, isn't as good as Recover. Garde can run a Wish set, and do it pretty well, but that leaves its' offensive options limited.

 

Venusaur: See ludicolo above, with a little less offensive viability, and the ability to eat Toxic all day. A great option to be sure, but why use it when Chansey can eat Toxic all day too?

 

Arcanine: Can be run Specially Defensive, and isn't bad. Prone to status and the ever present water types muckin' about. Not a bad option, if Chansey was not around.

 

Basically what I am trying to show here, are at least five Pokemon here that could be used in a specially defensive role but are dangerously outclassed by Chansey. All have their merits, and those could be weighed, countered, and thoughtfully considered without Chansey in OU. As it stands now however, unless you are specifically running a wall n' stall team, there is no reason to use any of these Pokemon over Chansey, and that is why I am leaning toward the opinion it is unhealthy. 

What do you mean people aren't running porygon2? It has 30% usage, just a few percent lower than chansey. You're also making a lot of assumptions here. Chansey can't wish and protect and pass a wish to another pokemon all in one go. If it passes a wish, it risks getting pursuited, or getting set up on, such as swords dance marowak, which would also beat the weezing switch in. 

 

Ludicolo is a pretty nice special wall considering nothing runs special bug moves and special poison moves aren't all that common, only from weezing and venusaur, and not even weezing sometimes. 

 

Pain split gardevoir is fine since it doesn't really take much damage from special attacks anyways. It's mostly a wallbreaker kind of pokemon so pain splitting off walls is usually reliable enough recovery. 

 

Are you suggesting chansey beats venusaur 1v1? Leech seed basically negates seismic toss damage. Can pseudo wish pass with leech seed recovery, and has a lot of coverage, as pokemon like metagross/magneton fear hp fire from venusaur. Venusaur is favored over chansey in some cases if you want the speed or an actual offensive presence.

 

Arcanine is the 3rd most used pokemon so obviously chansey isn't really affecting it that much.

 

Even though a wall is defensive, it still needs some kind of offensive pressure or else you have shuckle syndrome. Sure a shuckle takes physical attacks better than steelix in most regards, but shuckle has no offense to back up the walling capabilities. Similar story with chansey here. 

 

Your claim about unhealthiness kind of falls apart when the pokemon you're listing as "outclassed" are used anywhere from 15-30% of the time (more from the 20+ %)

[BenGorgon]

What do you mean people aren't running porygon2? It has 30% usage, just a few percent lower than chansey. You're also making a lot of assumptions here. Chansey can't wish and protect and pass a wish to another pokemon all in one go. If it passes a wish, it risks getting pursuited, or getting set up on, such as swords dance marowak, which would also beat the weezing switch in. 

 

Ludicolo is a pretty nice special wall considering nothing runs special bug moves and special poison moves aren't all that common, only from weezing and venusaur, and not even weezing sometimes. 

 

Pain split gardevoir is fine since it doesn't really take much damage from special attacks anyways. It's mostly a wallbreaker kind of pokemon so pain splitting off walls is usually reliable enough recovery. 

 

Are you suggesting chansey beats venusaur 1v1? Leech seed basically negates seismic toss damage. Can pseudo wish pass with leech seed recovery, and has a lot of coverage, as pokemon like metagross/magneton fear hp fire from venusaur. Venusaur is favored over chansey in some cases if you want the speed or an actual offensive presence.

 

Arcanine is the 3rd most used pokemon so obviously chansey isn't really affecting it that much.

 

Even though a wall is defensive, it still needs some kind of offensive pressure or else you have shuckle syndrome. Sure a shuckle takes physical attacks better than steelix in most regards, but shuckle has no offense to back up the walling capabilities. Similar story with chansey here. 

 

Your claim about unhealthiness kind of falls apart when the pokemon you're listing as "outclassed" are used anywhere from 15-30% of the time (more from the 20+ %)

 

I think you are missing that most of these pokes (with the exception of Umbreon) are being used alongside Chansey, not instead of. Also, I don't see the comparison between Shuckle and Chansey in this instance. Tox+Toss can put out a pretty reasonable amount of damage, and shuckle does not have access to instant recovery like Chansey does. Lastly, Shuckle is susceptible to status, and rest is great and all, but forces it to switch or makes it set-up bait. 

Edited October 1, 2015 by BenGorgon