[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[NikhilR]

How the F is the rock, paper and scizor effect skilful and then the chain break of trappers? pls explain. 

 

Chansey might be an easy answer to most stuff but it's certainly not that easy to use in this meta. We have tons of answers for it. Having the ability and creativity to make things to completely take down for example "a chansey arcanine ludicolo forretress core"  is the real skill that have been used and proved it can be done multiply times at officials.

 

Nikhils Machamp pressure!

 

 

To be honest, I won mostly because Frags didn't use a wish chansey and I did. Because of this he couldn't support his teammates and all I had to do was progressively weaken ludicolo and arcanine till it could no longer take any more superpowers from Machamp or switch into spikes + not recover its health that turn, like predicting Ludi switch in and going Venu. Plus when I mispredicted an Aero staying in vs Slowbro and went to Machamp that turn, Chansey helped recover that lost health on Machamp. 

 

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For me Wish Chansey is more broken than Softboil Chansey since all the latter can do is wall and stall while the former can support much better than Vapo or Umbreon. Also running a Wish Chansey over any other special wall gives you a HUGE advantage over your opponent. That qualifies as too good to not use. Also I know that P2 usage is at 30% and not much below than that of Chansey, but I personally feel that the reason we felt Chansey was used more often than P2 is because people who ran Chansey progressed further than the ones who ran P2. I know that that alone isn't a reason for the person progressing further but I think that that plays a huge role. 

[NikhilR]

Bulk UP machamp wouldnt care much about the wishes tbh and wouldnt have much effect on those plays either but thats how i see it.

 

Ya bulk up Machamp would definitely be a problem. The only way I could've seen it being beaten would be if Ludicolo leech seeds and then goes back and forth to arcanine for the intimidate drops. 

[BenGorgon]

I was aiming at some cores with chansey included that can wish support it NOT only chansey! Nice try tho! Thats the skill i rather like to see then having a chain reaction of trappers and being lucky in the end with a rock paper scizor game!

 

Such as the ones previously mentioned, all of which have exploitable weaknesses that Chansey simply doesn't have?

[KaynineXL]

This, this, and more of this. In a debate of health, we have to compare the qualities by which this single pokemon effects the metagame. Chansey is sure one hell of a defensive wall and pivot, but what does it bring to the table that is healthy for the tier?

 

Is having an additional antagonist of Toxic-spam useful, outside of our common steel-types Metagross and Forretress? Is Chansey's lack of an offensive presence creating diversity by promoting pokemon that can take advantage of this? Are these things that should be considered?

 

So please, for the bad-Chansey folks out there... speak up =)

 

This is what I think Chansey brings to the table that makes it healthy for the tier.

• Chansey is one of the very few that can actually stop special attackers running over the whole game.
• I like the fact Chansey can support effectively, this is a pretty cool play style.
• While Chansey has a pretty static moveset(almost always a status move) this makes guts users thrive(Hera, Machamp, Ursa) which otherwise wouldn't see the brink of day(except Hera ofc). I'm happy to see these pretty cool Pokemon that used to be in the trash can actually being used.
• While wish Chansey is around, we can use Pokemon that needs support to be effective. An example of a Pokemon that does very well with support is Slaking, this is just one of those Pokemon that require support to be more effective which otherwise wouldn't get as much play(of course Gengar going does help these normal spammers as well).
• Trapping. Yes I know it's seen as unhealthy(I agree to this), but who are we to say its unhealthy? It's a strategy that can be abused. If you don't play carefully you can be trapped. It's your fault you got trapped for the most part. While Chansey is here, trapping will play a fairly decent role in the meta.

 

I'v answered why I believe chansey is healthy, so here's a question for you. Why is it unhealthy for the tier?

• but also a generally good wall against the entire OU tier - Well, it really doesn't. Like I said in a previous post, just because it can wall, doesn't mean it can fight it.

[spoiler]

Just because Chansey can wall something, doesn't mean it can fight it.

 

For instance, staying in against Aero could be risky. One flinch and it could be costly, Chansey doesn't wall it reliably enough. Weezing is immune to toxic and Chansey is no threat to it, pain split would shit on Chansey's high health pool. Venusaur also immune to toxic and will out stall Chansey with ease with leech seed. Skarmory gets to spike for a seismic, could be worth if they have no spinner. Gyarados played right could be dangerous, especially if you don't know if the Gyara has sub which could block the status and setup and then flinches could be scary as well.

 

I know that list is just saying what it walls, but I feel it's trying to make it look like its superior than those in a 1v1 situation when it isn't.

 

[/spoiler]

• Currently it seems that Chansey is just "too good not to use".  - This isn't exactly true, the numbers show how other special walls are being used at almost the same rate as Chansey. I have watched a lot of tournaments and I'v seen a lot of top players not using Chansey and doing well.
• It can pivot in on many different attacks and can cripple opponents with Toxic and/or Thunder Wave. - This is a double edge sword as toxic helps guts users. Twave bliss gives stuff like Swampert/Flygon easy switches with little punishment.

I just don't see any good points being made to show it's unhealthy.

Edited October 2, 2015 by KaynineXL

[bl0nde]

I have a random comment. This looks kind of gimmicky but also kind of legit to me (lol):

Nidoking rash 80 atk ev's and 248 special attack then speed investment. [EQ,Superpower,Fire Blast, Tbolt].

So I am thinking this would be the main thing you would have to break and it looks like you can do it.

252+ SpA Nidoking Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 76-90 (44.1 - 52.3%).

4 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Nidoking: 45-54 (28.8 - 34.6%

 

I guess I would put leftovers on it to kind of eliminate the protect scouting thing. To me it looks like you have free switch ins all day against a chansey team, as long as you occasionally wish pass to the nidoking. In the event that chansey is not on the field it seems like this still acts as a semi fast revenge killer for all of the things like metagross and below speed. Resists to tbolt and fighting seems like you could take the hit and get some switches in especially if you wish support.

[/random]

[patienceyeah]

If you want to use pokemon with skill, go ahead, but you shouldn't force everyone to use them. Most pokemons are easy to use anyways, should we ban them all? The mechanics you mentioned that are present here just suggest that all pokemons that have a usage higher than a certain number should be banned. Or that if pokemon very good at something, it should be banned... Every pokemon is good at something.
 
Snorlax and Blisseygot banned making Gengar too strong. Now Gengar is banned making Chansey too strong? How long that can continue? This is my last post in this discussion, so you can sleep well. But before that I want to say something. For the past year or more I haven't been too involved in the game due to the changes. Everytime I would log in, something got banned. I thought maybe it's just me who doesn't like it. But in fact everyone knows that OU sucks. It's has been getting worse and worse and the tiering council keeps banning things trying to make it better and as they say bring "balance". I doubt you will ever understand is that the more you ban the worse it will get. If you remember the best days if OU (which I remember very well) there were no walls other than Snorlax and Blissey, there were much less pokemons than now. I talk about times even before breeding or even the times breeding was just implemented. OU was great and it's hard to argue with that and more people played than UU, it was for a reason. Nothing was banned. It's off topic, but it's true.
 
You can run an experiment, for a month bring Snorlax, Blissey, Gengar (possibly even Tyranitar and Dragonite) run a tourney every week and see if people like it. You will be surprised.

This statement is subjective at its core. How do you know people would enjoy curse spamming snorlax 360 no scoping your whole team. Or enjoying a special wall that can deal damage too. I know I wouldn't enjoy watching that or playing that.

[Robofiend]

This is what I think Chansey brings to the table that makes it healthy for the tier.

• Chansey is one of the very few that can actually stop special attackers running over the whole game. P2 exists tho and it's pretty damn bulky. Rain offense is frequently brought up here on your side of the debate, but rain has a hard time if Vaporeon, Umbreon, Gyarados, Ludicolo etc. are popular.
• I like the fact Chansey can support effectively, this is a pretty cool play style. Yeah, "pretty cool" that you have a wall that can heal all the other walls and prevent offense from being useful without its own Wish Support.
• While Chansey has a pretty static moveset(almost always a status move) this makes guts users thrive(Hera, Machamp, Ursa) which otherwise wouldn't see the brink of day(except Hera ofc). I'm happy to see these pretty cool Pokemon that used to be in the trash can actually being used. I contest this: Hera, Machamp and Ursaring are all useful outside of Chansey. In fact, any "blob" poke that people use in place of Chansey would make these pokes more viable because of how how little offense something like Umbreon has. Also, there's the classic argument here that "oh yeah, but you can just run X to stop Y therefore Y isn't unhealthy" which is usually tossed out - if something essentially forces a choice on the opponent (i.e. "can't win without a guts user") then that's evidence for it being bad for the tier.
• While wish Chansey is around, we can use Pokemon that needs support to be effective. An example of a Pokemon that does very well with support is Slaking, this is just one of those Pokemon that require support to be more effective which otherwise wouldn't get as much play(of course Gengar going does help these normal spammers as well). So we should keep Chansey so that Slaking is viable? I'm not seeing how this one works, especially if Chansey limits other pokes (Jolteon, Zam, Espeon, Starmie, etc.) from being useful just by its blobbiness.   
• Trapping. Yes I know it's seen as unhealthy(I agree to this), but who are we to say its unhealthy? It's a strategy that can be abused. If you don't play carefully you can be trapped. It's your fault you got trapped for the most part. While Chansey is here, trapping will play a fairly decent role in the meta. Trapping will likely exist with or without Chansey, and I think it's dubious to say trapping's inherently a good thing. Most players disagree and find trapping to be tolerable, but still kind of uncompetitive.

 

I'v answered why I believe chansey is healthy, so here's a question for you. Why is it unhealthy for the tier?

• but also a generally good wall against the entire OU tier - Well, it really doesn't. Like I said in a previous post, just because it can wall, doesn't mean it can fight it. You're not actually making an argument here, you're just saying "nonono ur wrong" to my point that Chansey is useful against a ton of pokemon in the OU meta. If Chansey weren't useful, why would 34% of people be using it? 

[spoiler]

 

[/spoiler]

• Currently it seems that Chansey is just "too good not to use".  - This isn't exactly true, the numbers show how other special walls are being used at almost the same rate as Chansey. I have watched a lot of tournaments and I'v seen a lot of top players not using Chansey and doing well. Porygon2 is the only thing being used close to as much as Chansey, others like Venu, Umbreon and Ludicolo have fallen off.
• It can pivot in on many different attacks and can cripple opponents with Toxic and/or Thunder Wave. - This is a double edge sword as toxic helps guts users. Twave bliss gives stuff like Swampert/Flygon easy switches with little punishment. I don't see Twave that much, and you're right that it opens a door (or lessens Chansey's offensive presence). But Toxic is the main Chansey move. As I've pointed out, Guts users have an uphill battle against stall in the current game because Chansey can just wear down the CB variants with SToss and Toxic and keep walls like Weezing alive to Haze off the SD boost or check them with Flames.  

I just don't see any good points being made to show it's unhealthy.

 

Thats because you're not reading my posts :)))) Srs tho, I've made the same arguments like 5 times now, it's time to be done.

 

As for blonde's request:

 

Variety: I'd say this is the biggest factor that Chansey limits. While it does incentivize fighting types, Guts users, etc. It also dissuades people from running CM users, weaker physical attackers, other special walls, special sweepers and anything that's weak to Toxic stall, as I've been saying. More than anything, Chansey just makes you want to run Chansey because it's so good for stopping status and residual damage from being the deciding factor in any game. 

 

Balance: ever since Chansey started seeing use in OU the game has become more defensive. The TC keeps coming back to this point, but it'd be nice to have a game where offense is as viable as defense is and we just haven't seen that yet. I think there's little hope, however, for true offense to work if you can't run Jolteon, Espeon, Alakazam, etc. or win matches without a Guts user. 

 

Competitivity: Maybe a slight loss of competivity with Chansey. I guess it really is an easy poke to use, and can allow the worse player to win if you don't have it just because the nature of Wish/Protect is to give you second chances is you mess up. But it also can be a limiting factor of success, even in the hands of a skilled player if its weaknesses aren't adequately patched up. 

 

Randomness: No net +/- here, Chansey doesn't really rely on luck.

 

Overall (like I've said) Chansey might not be quickban material but I'm still not seeing it being healthy (as in providing balance to other strategies and having downsides that force evolution instead of stagnation in the game).

[BurntZebra]

As for blonde's request:

 

Variety: I'd say this is the biggest factor that Chansey limits. While it does incentivize fighting types, Guts users, etc. It also dissuades people from running CM users, weaker physical attackers, other special walls, special sweepers and anything that's weak to Toxic stall, as I've been saying. More than anything, Chansey just makes you want to run Chansey because it's so good for stopping status and residual damage from being the deciding factor in any game. 

 

Balance: ever since Chansey started seeing use in OU the game has become more defensive. The TC keeps coming back to this point, but it'd be nice to have a game where offense is as viable as defense is and we just haven't seen that yet. I think there's little hope, however, for true offense to work if you can't run Jolteon, Espeon, Alakazam, etc. or win matches without a Guts user. 

 

Competitivity: Maybe a slight loss of competivity with Chansey. I guess it really is an easy poke to use, and can allow the worse player to win if you don't have it just because the nature of Wish/Protect is to give you second chances is you mess up. But it also can be a limiting factor of success, even in the hands of a skilled player if its weaknesses aren't adequately patched up. 

 

Randomness: No net +/- here, Chansey doesn't really rely on luck.

 

Overall (like I've said) Chansey might not be quickban material but I'm still not seeing it being healthy (as in providing balance to other strategies and having downsides that force evolution instead of stagnation in the game).

You haven't really discussed how a meta without chansey would be any better. Jolteon would be even less viable. Starmie would remain the same viability, or even decrease with pursuit umbreon becoming more popular. Calm minders would be even worse off with pursuit umbreon/return porygon etc. Toxic stall would be most likely more popular with pokemon that can pressure pokemon immune to toxic, like arcanine who can flamethrower steel/poison types. I also don't understand your point about weak physical attackers. Why would you run weak physical attackers ever? Strong physical attackers like ursaring/heracross already have a difficult time breaking through walls, so don't know why you would ever run something weaker for some reason. 

 

 

To your points about kaynine's argument:

 

How is porygon2 any different than chansey? Everyone is exaggerating wish support it seems. Most of the physical walls that are paired with chansey already have instant healing and usually people forgo attacking to set up their physical attacker while chansey wish passes to something else since there's no reason not to. 

 

I'll take your example about metagross in one of your previous posts. You say that it is healthy because it is a bulky pivot for offensive teams. But swampert/rhydon/marowak/machamp can do a similar role on teams, so metagross isn't really that essential to the meta. Metagross is the most used pokemon as well so it must be super pro, right?

 

Pokemon that are OU walls are OU for a reason and its because they take hits well and HAVE instant recovery. They don't need wish support from chansey. They definitely don't need wish support when chansey takes a pursuit to the face as it switches out. Offense usually has a pretty decent matchup vs defense to be honest. When offense runs machamp/ursaring, it puts a ton of pressure on defensive teams and they usually end up sacking pokemon to intimidate or attempt to revenge kill with a faster pokemon, which doesn't work too well vs bulk up machamp/ursaring usually. The only offense team that wouldn't do great is some noob tier ou team that is like ludicolo jolteon starmie espeon alakazam, where they expect to magically take down a special wall with no physical attackers and have no pokemon that can take hits well. 

 

I wouldn't say a guts user is necessary to beat chansey, since it definitely isn't. Guts users can beat chansey pretty much without fail since chansey is pretty bad at taking them on, but any choice band user can easily tear through chansey, usually ohko'ing. Special attackers like magneton/jolteon/espeon can take on chansey quite well. Magneton and jolteon can both drop chanseys special defense two stages to the point where thunderbolt does about 50% damage, and seismic toss is predictable damage so they can easily avoid kos. Magneton is only 4hko'ed by chansey, so assuming chansey comes in, it has no chance at beating magneton. Espeon can beat chansey pretty easily if chansey toxic's espeon, as espeon will be +2 sp atk and chansey will be toxic'ed at the end of those 2 turns. Then chansey loses that matchup. Not really worth trying to say that chansey can switch out since not a lot of pokemon will like taking a +2 stab psychic, and again would be trying to ban on team synergy. 

 

You're assuming a lot with the statement about slaking. First, he just used slaking as an example. There are other physical/special attackers that would like wish support a lot. Also I feel like you don't actually look at usage stats. People definitely run starmie and jolteon still. Espeon and alakazam have other issues like aerodactyl/metagross, so not really a valid argument to completely blame it on chansey. 

 

Again, you're making claims about usage which aren't true. Ludicolo and venusaur are most definitely still being used. Umbreon doesn't get a whole lot of usage since its very passive and requires a lot of team support. 

 

Again, you're assuming that there is a defensive pokemon that can receive a wish from chansey and never lose a match up. Very few pokemon can take on a bulk up machamp, even less can take on a swords dance marowak that swords dances on the switch. Skarmory/weezing/slowbro all take over 90% damage from marowaks attacks. And team synergy is a pretty meh argument to try to ban chansey on (see why vileplume/steelix discussion was trashed in old uu).

 

(since you replied within a quote, was kind of hard to reply clearly, but you should be able to tell what I'm talking/referring to. If you have any questions what I was referring to, let me know)

[BenGorgon]

I wouldn't say a guts user is necessary to beat chansey, since it definitely isn't. Guts users can beat chansey pretty much without fail since chansey is pretty bad at taking them on, but any choice band user can easily tear through chansey, usually ohko'ing. Special attackers like magneton/jolteon/espeon can take on chansey quite well. Magneton and jolteon can both drop chanseys special defense two stages to the point where thunderbolt does about 50% damage, and seismic toss is predictable damage so they can easily avoid kos. Magneton is only 4hko'ed by chansey, so assuming chansey comes in, it has no chance at beating magneton. Espeon can beat chansey pretty easily if chansey toxic's espeon, as espeon will be +2 sp atk and chansey will be toxic'ed at the end of those 2 turns. Then chansey loses that matchup. Not really worth trying to say that chansey can switch out since not a lot of pokemon will like taking a +2 stab psychic, and again would be trying to ban on team synergy. 

 

I just wanted to address this bit first. Chansey does have to options available to it that render Fake Tears / Metal Sound mostly useless. CM Chansey isn't used as much, but it is out there, and can hit pretty damn hard if given the opportunity. 

 

How is porygon2 any different than chansey? Everyone is exaggerating wish support it seems. Most of the physical walls that are paired with chansey already have instant healing and usually people forgo attacking to set up their physical attacker while chansey wish passes to something else since there's no reason not to. 

I don't see how "most" of the physical walls paired have instant recovery not highly supported by wish. I see this as true when paired with Slowbro or Vaporeon (if wish/protect counts as instant recovery), But Skarm is stuck with rest which makes it setup bait or switch bait, and Weezing has pain split, which again, just doesn't compare to Recover/SlackOff/Synth. Pain Split is only as good as it is because of Wish Support, otherwise it would be very prone to wear and tear. 

 

The differences are very apparent between P2 and Chansey, I am not sure why you are not acknowledging them. The ability to switch out of status, more or less for free, is a pretty big deal on a wall. The ability to Wish pass is kind of a big deal, but not quite as much. The ability to scout CBers is kind of a big deal. The ability to run a cleric set is kind of a big deal. I am not exactly sure how they are not different.

[KaynineXL]

P2 exists tho and it's pretty damn bulky. Rain offense is frequently brought up here on your side of the debate, but rain has a hard time if Vaporeon, Umbreon, Gyarados, Ludicolo etc. are popular.

What about CM Espy+Alakazam? Pory struggles against both of them, especially if the pory isn't sassy. Chansey can wall those much easier.

 

Yeah, "pretty cool" that you have a wall that can heal all the other walls and prevent offense from being useful without its own Wish Support.

Yes, it can heal others. If you let Chansey wish in what it needs, then that's your fault. Let's not forget Umbreon does exactly this.. So if this is a reason for it being unhealthy then why aren't you looking at Umbreon?

 

 I contest this: Hera, Machamp and Ursaring are all useful outside of Chansey. In fact, any "blob" poke that people use in place of Chansey would make these pokes more viable because of how how little offense something like Umbreon has. Also, there's the classic argument here that "oh yeah, but you can just run X to stop Y therefore Y isn't unhealthy" which is usually tossed out - if something essentially forces a choice on the opponent (i.e. "can't win without a guts user") then that's evidence for it being bad for the tier.

I disagree.. Those guts users are less useful without Chansey. Chansey has a static moveset, so you're pretty much guaranteed it will have a status move to help the guts users.

 

So we should keep Chansey so that Slaking is viable? I'm not seeing how this one works, especially if Chansey limits other pokes (Jolteon, Zam, Espeon, Starmie, etc.) from being useful just by its blobbiness.  

No? Slaking was an example of many things that love support. It creates diversity. Chansey does limit them in a way, but if you trap Chansey you can use these special attackers very effectively because generally people don't use 2 special attacks when Chansey limits all special attacks on its own.

 

Trapping will likely exist with or without Chansey, and I think it's dubious to say trapping's inherently a good thing. Most players disagree and find trapping to be tolerable, but still kind of uncompetitive.

Sure it will. The thing I'm trying to say is there is almost no punishment when attempting to trap Chansey so it's not too hard unless you play carefully. Like I said, who are we to say if trapping is unhealthy, it's a tactic that will always be used, some people that like to abuse it would disagree with us when we say it's unhealthy.

 

You're not actually making an argument here, you're just saying "nonono ur wrong" to my point that Chansey is useful against a ton of pokemon in the OU meta. If Chansey weren't useful, why would 34% of people be using it? 

I didn't say Chansey wasn't useful against a ton of pokemon in the OU meta.. but your 'list' is making Chansey out to be much better than it actually is. You say it can wall that list, but half of those it is very risky to fight or loses the stall war.

 

Porygon2 is the only thing being used close to as much as Chansey, others like Venu, Umbreon and Ludicolo have fallen off.

If Chansey is too good not to use, why does Porygon have almost the same usage rate? Venu/Ludi have a fairly decent usage rate. Umbreon is pretty much Chansey.. with some slight differences. Umbreon doesn't get NC, but it has that defense bulk and resists pursuit. Chansey can get wrecked by pursuit(especially if you want to pass a wish or you don't use protect). Let's not forget that synchronise is actually pretty good ability. Chansey NC is just too nice to pass on so Chansey>Umbreon. Doesn't mean Chansey>Porygon/Venu/Ludi though because they have slightly different roles in the Sp Def role.

 

I don't see Twave that much, and you're right that it opens a door (or lessens Chansey's offensive presence). But Toxic is the main Chansey move. As I've pointed out, Guts users have an uphill battle against stall in the current game because Chansey can just wear down the CB variants with SToss and Toxic and keep walls like Weezing alive to Haze off the SD boost or check them with Flames.  

If you toxic a guts user, you should kill or heavily damage something. Weezing will get hit hard from something +2 before it can haze. The damage is already done before you're able to stop the rampage. Like I said.. Chansey can't just wish in what ever it wants, when ever it wants. If it's doing that to you, that's your fault.

 

 

Thats because you're not reading my posts  :)))) Srs tho, I've made the same arguments like 5 times now, it's time to be done.

Incorrect. I read them, I just didn't find them as good points to make Chansey unhealthy :)

ps. repeated some things zebra says because he posted as I was writing.

Edited October 2, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Tyrone]

Please stay on topic and keep the discussion about Chansey in OU.

[Vaeldras]

The difference between bliss/lax and chansey* (besides them being both the best response to sp threats) is that chansey was never too good not to use.

As of now, with all the punishing pokes out there (Ursaring, blaziken, Metagross, Dugtrio...), i wouldn't bother using chansey when something like pory/garde can  do the same job with proper support.

I don't see the poke itself being bad for the meta, walls and traps isn't the only viable playstyle.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Vaeldras

[KaynineXL]

The difference between bliss/lax and chansey* (besides them being both the best response to sp threats) is that chansey was never too good not to use.

As of now, with all the punishing pokes out there (Ursaring, blaziken, Metagross, Dugtrio...), i wouldn't bother using chansey when something like pory/garde can  do the same job with proper support.

I don't see the poke itself being bad for the meta, walls and traps isn't the only viable playstyle.

Chansey supports much better than Porygon2(Wisher, Status absorber, Aroma). Porygon has a better offensive presence though and a much more versatile moveset, not to mention a great ability.

 

While Chansey is just a solid wall, Porygon struggles with some CMers and rain teams. That said, Porygon deals with Gyarados(if healthy) and that's pretty awesome in a team.

[OrangeManiac]

Alright, I want to address to the briefly discussed "Facade + Guts" strategies in order to beat Chansey (+Weezing). Yeah, these can really abuse this combo. The problem is that it may end up you being required to run Guts + Facade offensive Pokemon and base your offense to these Pokemon and having to use them even if opponent is not using Chansey. Even if Chansey user would lose to these Guts offensive Pokemon, it still doesn't take away the fact that Chansey is centralizing and doesn't only limit special offense completely but only makes handful of physical attackers viable. Since Chansey is a trillion times more worse offender about this, then Chansey is the Pokemon that should be discussed regarding to this, at least in my opinion.

Edit: Blaziken could get some relevance, though. It's not used but it's not a bad mon.

Edited October 3, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Vaeldras]

Alright, I want to address to the briefly discussed "Facade + Guts" strategies in order to beat Chansey (+Weezing). Yeah, these can really abuse this combo. The problem is that it may end up you being required to run Guts + Facade offensive Pokemon and base your offense to these Pokemon and having to use them even if opponent is not using Chansey. Even if Chansey user would lose to these Guts offensive Pokemon, it still doesn't take away the fact that Chansey is centralizing and doesn't only limit special offense completely but only makes handful of physical attackers viable. Since Chansey is a trillion times more worse offender about this, then Chansey is the Pokemon that should be discussed regarding to this, at least in my opinion.

 

Tbh when i think of ursa i think of sdance spam.

Guts bait, setup bait, dugtrio bait, blazigross bait...

When i built my team chansey was the last of my problems since he is no threat to me.

But i have to confess i'd like starmie to have a bit more relevance.

[Robofiend]

Alright, I want to address to the briefly discussed "Facade + Guts" strategies in order to beat Chansey (+Weezing). Yeah, these can really abuse this combo. The problem is that it may end up you being required to run Guts + Facade offensive Pokemon and base your offense to these Pokemon and having to use them even if opponent is not using Chansey. Even if Chansey user would lose to these Guts offensive Pokemon, it still doesn't take away the fact that Chansey is centralizing and doesn't only limit special offense completely but only makes handful of physical attackers viable. Since Chansey is a trillion times more worse offender about this, then Chanse is the Pokemon that should be discussed regarding to this.

 

Another salient fact here are.. the actual calcs/logic behind this whole Facade argument:

 

0 Atk Porygon2 Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

If you're sending Porygon2 in to absorb the Toxic and retaliate, Chansey should just Wish/Protect you to death. First turn Chansey Protects, second turn Wishes, and so on. Against a good player using a near full-health Chansey, Porygon2 will lose to Toxic stall, plain and simple.

 

Like you said, Guts users do a great job of abusing Chansey, but they run the risk of getting worn down or outplayed. If you fail to SD with Heracross when Weezing swaps in (Guts Facade can't kill Chansey) then Weezing wins and you pay for it in residual Toxic damage. If you instead decide to set up, the opponent can send in another fast attacker (Aero, Gyara?) and make you waste turns trying to hit Gyara/Skarm.

 

It seems that outside of Guts users and Metagross, there aren't really good options for players to deal with Chansey, which is an argument for it being overly centralizing.

[BurntZebra]

 

Another salient fact here are.. the actual calcs/logic behind this whole Facade argument:

 

0 Atk Porygon2 Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

If you're sending Porygon2 in to absorb the Toxic and retaliate, Chansey should just Wish/Protect you to death. First turn Chansey Protects, second turn Wishes, and so on. Against a good player using a near full-health Chansey, Porygon2 will lose to Toxic stall, plain and simple.

 

Like you said, Guts users do a great job of abusing Chansey, but they run the risk of getting worn down or outplayed. If you fail to SD with Heracross when Weezing swaps in (Guts Facade can't kill Chansey) then Weezing wins and you pay for it in residual Toxic damage. If you instead decide to set up, the opponent can send in another fast attacker (Aero, Gyara?) and make you waste turns trying to hit Gyara/Skarm.

 

It seems that outside of Guts users and Metagross, there aren't really good options for players to deal with Chansey, which is an argument for it being overly centralizing.

 

Until porygon2 traces natural cure and can heal itself whenever it pleases. I don't really agree with "It seems that outside of Guts users and Metagross, there aren't really good options for players to deal with Chansey". Guts users+metagross is already around 6 pokemon. Then there are other pokemon like swampert, gyarados, aerodactyl, blaziken, marowak, any physical attacker in ou basically, that can scare out chansey fairly easily. I wouldn't really agree that a pokemon can be centralizing when half of the BL/OU pokemon can just prevent chansey from coming in, and they can also come in vs chansey fairly easily, especially if chansey decides to wish or protect. 

[Vaeldras]

 

It seems that outside of Guts users and Metagross, there aren't really good options for players to deal with Chansey, which is an argument for it being overly centralizing.

 

 

Stop ignoring my posts :(

 

Blaziken, machamp (no guts, straight cross chop), dugtrio, cb pert, flygon, 50% with bellyzard, medicham, block venusaur (HUE), rhydon,some pokes i won't mention because i already posted enough "bad" pokes...

Really, anything with superpower, guts, a setup move, any fighting type, metagross and dugtrio. how is that not enough?

Edited October 3, 2015 by Vaeldras

[KaynineXL]

 

It seems that outside of Guts users and Metagross, there aren't really good options for players to deal with Chansey, which is an argument for it being overly centralizing.

 

 

 

There is a lot that can deal with it.. You even forgot how easy Chansey is trapped. That's a weakness in its own right.

1. Venu - Simply stalls with LS, immune to toxic.
2. Dugtrio - The easiest way to deal with Chansey...
3. Machamp - Guts with fighting stab..
4. Weezing - Immune to toxic and can pain split the high health, Chansey needs to switch.
5. Forre - Immune to toxic, can trade spikes for seismic and let's not forget it can run pain split..
6. Hera - Guts CB/SD
7. Ursa - Guts + SD
8. Skarm - Immune to toxic, can trade spikes for seismic
9. Sceptile - Subs status and LS.
10. Metagross - Immune to toxic and wrecks

Edited October 3, 2015 by KaynineXL

[lVlusay]

 

There is a lot that can deal with it.. You even forgot how easy Chansey is trapped. That's a weakness in its own right.

1. Venu - Simply stalls with LS, immune to toxic.
2. Dugtrio - The easiest way to deal with Chansey...
3. Machamp - Guts with fighting stab..
4. Weezing - Immune to toxic and can pain split the high health, Chansey needs to switch.
5. Forre - Immune to toxic, can trade spikes for seismic and let's not forget it can run pain split..
6. Hera - Guts CB/SD
7. Ursa - Guts + SD
8. Skarm - Immune to toxic, can trade spikes for seismic
9. Sceptile - Subs status and LS.
10. Metagross - Immune to toxic and wrecks

 

I said I won't comment anymore, but here is another thing. This list of 10 is just the beginning:

-If Chansey has stoss/twave, then it's just a field day for

Marowak, Rhydon, Swampert, Flygon and any other ground type

 

The Only dangerous combination is Stoss/toxic, but all these pokemon can still come in and do harm. Worst case scenario they come in on toxic (instead of wish, protect or Stoss):

-Marowak and Rhydon can both Swords Dance or Substitute and do harm to the next switch in (possibly Weezing)

-If curse Swampert, can curse, then rest if needed.

 

Actually you can switch almost any physical sweeper on Chansey and not be afraid of status if you have a status healer on your team, which many people now do.

 

You can come in with Kingdra DD then rest if needed. Can calm mind with slowbro if rest. You can also just come in with vaporeon, umbreon heal status or pass wish to something, Can come with Gardevoir with heal bell and pain split and have fun.

 

All these are beside the 10 option mentioned by Kaynine. Should I continue?

Edited October 4, 2015 by lVlusay

[KaynineXL]

I said I won't comment anymore, but here is another thing. This list of 10 is just the beginning:

-If Chansey has stoss/twave, then it's just a field day for

Marowak, Rhydon, Swampert, Flygon and any other ground type

 

The Only dangerous combination is Stoss/toxic, but all these pokemon can still come in and do harm. Worst case scenario they come in on toxic (instead of wish, protect or Stoss):

-Marowak and Rhydon can both Swords Dance or Substitute and do harm to the next switch in (possibly Weezing)

-If curse Swampert, can curse, then rest if needed.

 

Actually you can switch almost any physical sweeper on Chansey and not be afraid of status if you have a status healer on your team, which many people now do.

 

You can come in with Kingdra DD then rest if needed. Can calm mind with slowbro if rest. You can also just come in with vaporeon, umbreon heal status or pass wish to something, Can come with Gardevoir with heal bell and pain split and have fun.

 

All these are beside the 10 option mentioned by Kaynine. Should I continue?

Exactly, I knew there were much more.. but I think I proved a point with 10.

 

This is just OU... I don't see why we can't bring other tiers into this? An example, like Blonde says.. Wall breaker nidoking immune to toxic+para.

[Vaeldras]

Exactly, I knew there were much more.. but I think I proved a point with 10.

 

This is just OU... I don't see why we can't bring other tiers into this? An example, like Blonde says.. Wall breaker nidoking immune to toxic+para.

 

As long as we don't come out with something completely unviable, because that would bring us to the overcentralization point. slaking for example, or even trapinch lmao.

We don't really need anything particular to beat chansey, any team can beat it.

[KaynineXL]

As long as we don't come out with something completely unviable, because that would bring us to the overcentralization point. slaking for example, or even trapinch lmao.

We don't really need anything particular to beat chansey, any team can beat it.

Well, I already pointed out 10 things in OU that are commonly used that would work, so that excuse can't be used

[DoubleJ]

I think most of us are underestimating Chansey in actual game play. It has amazing synergy with common walls and can support a team very easily.

Hopefully there is another OU tournament that can highlight this fact.

[SpartacusGD]

if im not mistaken the very reason chansey is even in the table right nownis because we banned lax and bliss. Why did we do that? i saw alot of posts about making special offense more viable but without gengar that actually didnt happen. Lets face it guys, this is a chain and ut will never atop unril we run out of ous. Once we ban chansey another big boy will come out. Most probably prevalence of magneton and will make hp fire p2 mandatory which imo is unhealthy. We cant run away from these bans now that we've started banning everything. Now all we can do is pick which of these sucky metas shall we choose thats all we can do and stop there maybe? For me the gengar ban was good and about chansey im on board with people wanting to ban it cause its boring and i hate the i can wall you all specials approach it packs. I hope the community and tier council make a good decision here and so we can settle down and start off playing an actual tier that isnt changing every month. Deny it all you want but people stopped playing ou cause of these chain ban, uu and nu are much more anticipated compared to ou right now and i dont think it ever happened before which only shows that this isnt the meta atm isnt really the best. Maybe 1 last ban, chansey ban then we can just deal with the super strong magnet which i think isnt very hard considering dug is here and other ground types, but are we ready for the REAL trap based ou? Trappers in every team. Answer that question before posting if you really want chansey banned or not.

Edit: sorry for typos im on my phone and driving in traffic right now just had to post what i have in mind cos time is gold

Edited October 4, 2015 by SpartacusGD