[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[Robofiend]

Actually you can switch almost any physical sweeper on Chansey and not be afraid of status if you have a status healer on your team, which many people now do.

 

The only way you can say this with a straight face is if you're saying that many people carry Chansey - no other top tier pokemon have access to heal bell besides that. In that case you're saying "Chansey checks Chansey so it's chill," which is just an argument for my side, which is saying Chansey is overly centralizing.

 

@everyone else: you seem to be making two critical logic mistakes: one is that somehow Marowak, Blaziken and Flygon aren't afraid of status. The only way that they aren't afraid of status is if they have a cleric. Chansey is the only OU cleric (by usage). So basically you're saying they're cool as long as you run Chansey which just proves my point. The other is that other special walls somehow have a way of healing status, providing Wish Support, or providing some utility that Chansey doesn't. When you look at usage it's clear that Chansey does "special wall" better than pretty much anything, except P2 who beats the rare CM user from winning. 

 

Straight up ROFL at people pretending that Porygon switching in, taking Toxic damage and then being forced to switch out counts as "checking Chansey".

 

Also kek at all these "counters" people are pulling out of their ass (Venusaur? Porygon2? Flygon2? Dugtrio?) All of them either get stalled out, get Toxic switching in, or are a liability for your team compared to Chansey when it comes to picking a special wall. Venu's not used currently because of it's Psychic/Ice weaknesses, so there's really no point in suggesting it as a Chansey counter when it's literally worse in every way except for being immune to Toxic/ST (not to mention that 8 Synth < any amount of Wish/Protect).

Edited October 4, 2015 by Robofiend

[lVlusay]

The only way you can say this with a straight face is if you're saying that many people carry Chansey - no other top tier pokemon have access to heal bell besides that. In that case you're saying "Chansey checks Chansey so it's chill," which is just an argument for my side, which is saying Chansey is overly centralizing.

 

That's the problem with arguing in here. Out of all the examples Kaynine and I provided, you only saw this line and now pretend that you didn't see anything else and that it doesn't matter. In terms of what I said, I can explain again.

 

Take a Marowak, Rhydon, Blaziken or others many other sweepers (beside the 10 easy asnwers to Chansey that Kaynine mentioned) to switch on Chansey.

1) It was using protect from previous turn - free switch for you

2) It used wish - free switch for you

3) It used seismic toss - not bad

4) It used twave - free switch for you. If it used toxic, then you are still in good position, swords dance, the switch will be to some sort of a wall...Maybe weezing. Ok, destroy it.

 

I hope I don't need to explained such a detailed description of a competitive battle in the future.

 

The whole game is about taking a risk. You take a risk of being toxiced, but you can SD for higher gain. After you will be in a good position. It's not always a 6-0, sometimes you sacrifice or take a risk to win. If you have a healer (for reference: vaporeon, umbreon, jolteon, gardevoir (all commonly used) or your own chansey, you can heal that status later. To your comment that there aren't top tier healers. There aren't top tier of anything lol. We have 3 top guts abusers, 3 top spikers, 2-4 rapid spinners, 2-3 curse users, 2-3 dragons dancers. There aren't much of anything, but I just listed you 5 commonly used pokemons that can use heal bell, make use of it.

Edited October 4, 2015 by lVlusay

[NikhilR]

The Only dangerous combination is Stoss/toxic, but all these pokemon can still come in and do harm. Worst case scenario they come in on toxic (instead of wish, protect or Stoss):

-Marowak and Rhydon can both Swords Dance or Substitute and do harm to the next switch in (possibly Weezing)

-If curse Swampert, can curse, then rest if needed.

 

Actually you can switch almost any physical sweeper on Chansey and not be afraid of status if you have a status healer on your team, which many people now do.

 

You can come in with Kingdra DD then rest if needed. Can calm mind with slowbro if rest. You can also just come in with vaporeon, umbreon heal status or pass wish to something, Can come with Gardevoir with heal bell and pain split and have fun.

 

All these are beside the 10 option mentioned by Kaynine. Should I continue?

 

Marowak and Rhydon aren't as good as you're making them about to be because of how slow they are compared to most other things. Curse swampert is the least viable of all of them seeing as how a CM Slowbro or any grass type move wrecks Swampert, thus making the CB set the most viable of all.

 

You claim that many people run status healers but this isn't true. They run Chansey to absorb these statuses. 

 

DD Kingdra isn't all that great if the Chansey is paired with another bulky water type and when you're forced to use outrage which could eventually lead to your death. That's just too risky or should I say, relying on luck and not skill. Being forced to use rest on Slowbro makes you vulnerable to many physical attackers like Flygon and Metagross, something that a Chansey user needs to counter. So while rest helps you set up vs Chansey / Umb (if no taunt), it does more harm than good.

 

Running a Vaporeon and Umbreon with healbell will leave you with massive flaws especially how the former is 2hko'd by Flygon EQ, set up bait for CM Slowbro, set up bait for DD Gyara, switch ins for Venu+Ludicolo as well. The point being that Vaporeon is outclassed by Slowbro and Umbreon has a shit offense which makes it less useful compared to Chansey. 

 

Tell me if I am wrong, but I feel like you're saying most of these out of theory and not practice. I personally felt the way you did about this and I actually tried using a Marowak but at most all I was able to nab was one kill. Either Weezing gets you with wow or people manage to switch between intimidate users like arcanine and then go to a ground immunity pokemon. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

I have ready every single opinion in this thread and the only thing all the Chansey users want to talk about mainly, is how "easily" it can be beaten, but not about how too good it is to not use and how only the Chansey users have been the ones finding it easier to progress in tournaments than P2 users. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by NikhilR

[KaynineXL]

The only way you can say this with a straight face is if you're saying that many people carry Chansey - no other top tier pokemon have access to heal bell besides that. In that case you're saying "Chansey checks Chansey so it's chill," which is just an argument for my side, which is saying Chansey is overly centralizing.

 

@everyone else: you seem to be making two critical logic mistakes: one is that somehow Marowak, Blaziken and Flygon aren't afraid of status. The only way that they aren't afraid of status is if they have a cleric. Chansey is the only OU cleric (by usage). So basically you're saying they're cool as long as you run Chansey which just proves my point. The other is that other special walls somehow have a way of healing status, providing Wish Support, or providing some utility that Chansey doesn't. When you look at usage it's clear that Chansey does "special wall" better than pretty much anything, except P2 who beats the rare CM user from winning. 

 

Straight up ROFL at people pretending that Porygon switching in, taking Toxic damage and then being forced to switch out counts as "checking Chansey".

 

Also kek at all these "counters" people are pulling out of their ass (Venusaur? Porygon2? Flygon2? Dugtrio?) All of them either get stalled out, get Toxic switching in, or are a liability for your team compared to Chansey when it comes to picking a special wall. Venu's not used currently because of it's Psychic/Ice weaknesses, so there's really no point in suggesting it as a Chansey counter when it's literally worse in every way except for being immune to Toxic/ST (not to mention that 8 Synth < any amount of Wish/Protect).

Wtf lol... If you check my list, I did not mention maro/blaz/flygon. You say Chansey is overly centralized yet there are so many things you can bring in against it!

 

You're telling me you can't bring Venu against Chansey? Like.. Venu just LS.. immune to toxic and just heals the seismic damage with the seeds, it will out stall Chansey..(Don't forget about the 100% accuracy toxic Venu can use)

 

"Venu's not used currently because of it's Psychic/Ice weaknesses " Lmao?? Do you not watch the tourneys?

Venu is one of the best things to deal with Ludi.. Not only that it's pretty good 1v1 against a lot of things and stops a bunch of special attackers.

 

"it's clear that Chansey does "special wall" better than pretty much anything, except P2 who beats the rare CM user from winning." You're mistaken.. P2 struggles with CMers, especially if not sassy.. lmao. Chansey on the other hand can deal with them.

 

That doesn't mean Chansey is much better than Pory.. Pory brings different things to the table.

Edited October 4, 2015 by KaynineXL

[NikhilR]

Wtf lol... If you check my list, I did not mention maro/blaz/flygon. You say Chansey is overly centralized yet there are so many things you can bring in against it!

 

You're telling me you can't bring Venu against Chansey? Like.. Venu just LS.. immune to toxic and just heals the seismic damage with the seeds, it will out stall Chansey..(Don't forget about the 100% accuracy toxic Venu can use)

 

"Venu's not used currently because of it's Psychic/Ice weaknesses " Lmao?? Do you not watch the tourneys?

Venu is one of the best things to deal with Ludi.. Not only that it's pretty good 1v1 against a lot of things and stops a bunch of special attackers.

 

"it's clear that Chansey does "special wall" better than pretty much anything, except P2 who beats the rare CM user from winning." You're mistaken.. P2 struggles with CMers, especially if not sassy.. lmao. Chansey on the other hand can deal with them.

 

That doesn't mean Chansey is much better than Pory.. Pory brings different things to the table.

 

May be you're misinterpreting what Robo said. He isn't saying you can't bring in Venu vs Chansey but just because something can switch in on something, doesn't mean that it can always beat it. Venusaur can stall it out yes, but you're forgetting that not all Venusaurs run leech. It suffers from 4MSS so either it gives up synthesis or hidden power fire and giving up those last 2 moves leaves it with a lot more problems than not running leech. 

 

Also, forcing something out, isn't always the same as beating it. Chansey can always wish pass to something that will beat out whatever you use to stall it out. P2 doesn't always struggle vs CMers. If it has a physical move like return then it beats Espeon / Gard, the only thing it won't be able to beat is CM Slowbro, for which what you require is a toxic user. 

 

You're right that what P2 and Chansey offer are completely different things, but you cannot tell me that what Chansey offers is far, far more better or more useful than P2 because it offers decent offense in terms of seismic toss, toxic, NC, banded move scouting, wish support, completely shutting down special attackers and aroma (it would have to give up on toss or toxic for this). 

Edited October 4, 2015 by NikhilR

[KaynineXL]

May be you're misinterpreting what Robo said. He isn't saying you can't bring in Venu vs Chansey but just because something can switch in on something, doesn't mean that it can always beat it. Venusaur can stall it out yes, but you're forgetting that not all Venusaurs run leech. It suffers from 4MSS so either it gives up synthesis or hidden power fire and giving up those last 2 moves leaves it with a lot more problems than not running leech. 

 

Also, forcing something out, isn't always the same as beating it. Chansey can always wish pass to something that will beat out whatever you use to stall it out. P2 doesn't always struggle vs CMers. If it has a physical move like return then it beats Espeon / Gard, the only thing it won't be able to beat is CM Slowbro, for which what you require is a toxic user. 

 

You're right that what P2 and Chansey offer are completely different things, but you cannot tell me that what Chansey offers is far, far more better or more useful than P2 because it offers decent offense in terms of seismic toss, toxic, NC, banded move scouting, wish support, completely shutting down special attackers and aroma (it would have to give up on toss or toxic for this). 

Robo says it will stall out Venu. I doubt that tbh. I honestly think most Venu do run LS, at least I do. This is an argument from nothing really because there are much more that can abuse Chansey as an easy switch, I'm just saying Venu can do it. What I'm trying to say is, if I bring Venu against a Chansey, that Chansey should wish switch out.(Let's not forget it's obvious it will wish switch so you can just LS the switch)

 

I literally said multiple times Pory struggles unless it's sassy. Sassy is pretty sketchy against CMers also.

 

"you cannot tell me that what Chansey offers is far, far more better or more useful than P2"  - That's literally the opposite of what I'm saying lol. P2 has some great qualities about it. It's got much more variety in its moveset, it's more offensive, it's great if your team struggles with Gyarados, a unique ability that can be insanely good, it can hit with physical and special attacks.

Edited October 4, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Vaeldras]

The only way you can say this with a straight face is if you're saying that many people carry Chansey - no other top tier pokemon have access to heal bell besides that. In that case you're saying "Chansey checks Chansey so it's chill," which is just an argument for my side, which is saying Chansey is overly centralizing.

 

@everyone else: you seem to be making two critical logic mistakes: one is that somehow Marowak, Blaziken and Flygon aren't afraid of status. The only way that they aren't afraid of status is if they have a cleric. Chansey is the only OU cleric (by usage). So basically you're saying they're cool as long as you run Chansey which just proves my point. The other is that other special walls somehow have a way of healing status, providing Wish Support, or providing some utility that Chansey doesn't. When you look at usage it's clear that Chansey does "special wall" better than pretty much anything, except P2 who beats the rare CM user from winning. 

 

 

Straight up ROFL at people pretending that Porygon switching in, taking Toxic damage and then being forced to switch out counts as "checking Chansey".

 

Also kek at all these "counters" people are pulling out of their ass (Venusaur? Porygon2? Flygon2? Dugtrio?) All of them either get stalled out, get Toxic switching in, or are a liability for your team compared to Chansey when it comes to picking a special wall. Venu's not used currently because of it's Psychic/Ice weaknesses, so there's really no point in suggesting it as a Chansey counter when it's literally worse in every way except for being immune to Toxic/ST (not to mention that 8 Synth < any amount of Wish/Protect).

 

Most of these pokes are really only concerned about 1 kind of status (twave doesn't touch flygon, blaziken doesn't care too much about toxic because of it's hit and run nature [you don't stall blazi anyway]) and some of the solutions even run guts. And even then, why are you assuming i can only send blazi/flygon and friends only once chansey is out? 

 

Also i don't know you, but calling venusar and flygon2(lmao) liabilities? srs?

Edited October 4, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Robofiend]

Nik interpreted my post well. Venu does stall Chansey out, but unless you're running Block that never really translates into actually beating it.

[KaynineXL]

Nik interpreted my post well. Venu does stall Chansey out, but unless you're running Block that never really translates into actually beating it.

If something can stall something out, then it should switch.. no?

[BenGorgon]

I am not entirely sure why the primary focus here is counters to Chansey. That is far from the only reason to ban something. Also, forcing a switch is nice and all, but it is not beating it, 

[Robofiend]

Also i don't know you, but calling venusar and flygon2(lmao) liabilities? srs?

 

If you look at Flygon's usage in the last two tourneys it has gone downhill. Same with Venu. It makes sense: Flygon needs a CB to be effective and Steel types like Skarmory/Metagross are everywhere. Venu can't hang without HP fire to hit steels as well and sleep is less useful when you have to deal with a common cleric healing sleeping pokes back to life.

 

If something can stall something out, then it should switch.. no?

 

Well Chansey can make Venu waste Leech PP or take the Leech and then predict the switch out. Also Leech Seed alone isn't enough to beat Chansey. Chansey can just WishStall you down unless you have some other move with high PP or Rest or something odd like that.

 

Giga - 8

Sludge/Sleep -16/24

Synth - 8

Leech - 16

 

vs. 

 

Wish - 16

Protect - 16

Seismic Toss - 32

Toxic - 16

 

Venu has other options, but none of them appear to really help with this imbalance in PP, except for maybe Growth. The best case (Block/Growth is below) but I think it's clear that no one currently runs that set.

 

+6 0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[KaynineXL]

 

If you look at Flygon's usage in the last two tourneys it has gone downhill. Same with Venu. It makes sense: Flygon needs a CB to be effective and Steel types like Skarmory/Metagross are everywhere. Venu can't hang without HP fire to hit steels as well and sleep is less useful when you have to deal with a common cleric healing sleeping pokes back to life.

 

 

Well Chansey can make Venu waste Leech PP or take the Leech and then predict the switch out. Also Leech Seed alone isn't enough to beat Chansey. Chansey can just WishStall you down unless you have some other move with high PP or Rest or something odd like that.

 

Giga - 8

Sludge/Sleep -16/24

Synth - 8

Leech - 16

 

vs. 

 

Wish - 16

Protect - 16

Seismic Toss - 32

Toxic - 16

 

Venu has other options, but none of them appear to really help with this imbalance in PP, except for maybe Growth. The best case (Block/Growth is below) but I think it's clear that no one currently runs that set.

 

+6 0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Giga is 16. Me personally, I like Protect+LS instead of synth.

Edited October 4, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Robofiend]

Giga is 16. Me personally, I like Protect+LS instead of synth.

 

Even so, you have to recognize that Chansey wins a PP war, as long as it has enough Wishes. Venu's good for providing team support against Chansey but it can't really win the 1v1 unless it carries some random super high PP move.

[KaynineXL]

Even so, you have to recognize that Chansey wins a PP war, as long as it has enough Wishes. Venu's good for providing team support against Chansey but it can't really win the 1v1 unless it carries some random super high PP move.

Depends, it will be a long stall and Chansey will need to Wish every so often. You don't need to stall out all of Chanseys PP, just wishes PP.

 

edit: I guess I'v said everything I need to say. I don't think Chansey should be banned because it doubt it will even make a difference. If you like to have a wish support you can just go to Umbreon so there won't be much change, but if you feel there will be then, go ahead, I guess it doesn't matter to me, I just find it a pointless ban.

Edited October 4, 2015 by KaynineXL

[bl0nde]

I just witnessed this while eating my stew and it is relevant.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Don't laugh too much lol, it could have got any of us. Your nature tells you that jynx hits hard so you try to stop it fast and send in your defender to not waste turns. What a massive fake out, right? Edit: actually most of our special walls lack a lot of hitting power. Porygon2 can do okay I guess if you want to play aggressive. Nevertheless, these perish trappers are usually maxed out in HP and defenses. If you remember fighting those dem perish song lapras that just repeatedly rest... you can imagine it is a frightening thought how effective these trappers could be at times. Pory2, chansey, and umbreon can't phaze.

Edited October 4, 2015 by bl0nde

[Robofiend]

Lets face it guys, this is a chain and ut will never atop unril we run out of ous.

 

You need to actually contribute to the discussion if you're going to be here. Making this "ban chain" argument is a poor excuse for saying anything of value and we just don't listen - you're wasting your breath (and putting yourself in massive danger by texting and driving). You can make predictions about the metagame going to shit, but as you know those kinds of predictions are often wrong. Remember when everyone said non-Gengar OU would be all Normal spam, Magnetons, Dugtrios and other bad shit? It turns out that was a bad prediction because now we're discussing defense/Chansey being too strong in the current metagame. Those other things exist, but surely aren't as meta-defining as even I thought they'd be.

 

No one "stopped playing OU" also - maybe you did, but the tournaments this weekend still filled up with people who wanted to play. By complaining about established tiering policy you just make yourself look bad and eliminate your voice from consideration by the people who make the decisions about tiering. If you really care, make an argument for Chansey to stay. If you just want to complain about this evil "ban chain" plot then do it somewhere outside of comp alley.

[OldKeith]

The fact that people remotely consider a Chansey ban is shocking, to say the least. Sure, it does wall a lot of things, but what are you guys so afraid of, seismic toss? Or its mighty 35 base special attack?

 

Chansey is anything but banworthy. The wish set can leave it exposed after switching in on a hard hit, or being pursuited while switching out. The softboiled set is a bit better, but Chansey remains predictable, and walled by so many pokemon. Please think before you ban.

[BurntZebra]

The fact that people remotely consider a Chansey ban is shocking, to say the least. Sure, it does wall a lot of things, but what are you guys so afraid of, seismic toss? Or its mighty 35 base special attack?

 

Chansey is anything but banworthy. The wish set can leave it exposed after switching in on a hard hit, or being pursuited while switching out. The softboiled set is a bit better, but Chansey remains predictable, and walled by so many pokemon. Please think before you ban.

keith come back to tier council. 

 

I mean they're not trying to ban it for offensive or defensive uber, but I definitely agree with your points. Its basically why the umbreon ban in UU was ridiculous and had to be reversed (inb4 someone tells me that umbreon and chansey aren't the same pokemon)

[KaynineXL]

(inb4 someone tells me that umbreon and chansey aren't the same pokemon)

The reason why banning Chansey is useless imo.

[Gunthug]

Outsiders perspective here, since I'm not speccing tourneys anymore, but I think our unique protect mechanics make chansey much easier to deal with. Here, if you protect as someone switches out, the protect still registers and you then have a 50/50 protect the next turn, should you choose to risk it. This means aggressive predictions will leave chansey in a spot where it can't scout a choice bander anymore, though protect scouting was always super risky with so many set up pokes in OU

Also, what exactly is the makeup of the tier council at the moment? Between JJ making this thread despite being on the UU council, and the gengar vote magically having 7 participants, it's pretty confusing

[Robofiend]

The reason why banning Chansey is useless imo.

 

Yeah, except with Umbreon you have no NC, need to run heal-bell to protect from Toxic Stall, can't ST and you die to CM Signal Beam/have to choose between Pursuit/Toxic as your damage output.

 

Of course you could sack Wish/Protect for moonlight, but then you're nowhere near as effective as Chansey at supporting.

[DoubleJ]

I'm sorry I haven't been much involved with this discussion, but in my opinion Chansey is just too good of a special wall and offers unrivaled team support. By removing Chansey we offer Calm Mind users a bit more freedom and limit stall's impact on the tier by just a tad. I recommend this because our movement with PokeMMO has been to remove overpowering offensive threats and also "blanket defenses" that just shut down an entire playstyle. Chansey in my opinion is a blanket defense that stops 99% of special attackers (we could get gimmicky like Block + CM Slowbro, but even then +6 Slowbro can't even 2HKO most Chansey). 

 

If we remove Chansey I don't believe special attackers will become overpowered because we have great defensive options in Porygon2 and Umbreon. Both of these pokemon can carry attacking moves that really hurt squishy special attackers and they can still provide team support, just not on the level of Chansey. 

 

This also might be a big assumption because we don't know what a tier without Chansey would look like, but I see more diversity in physical offense developing with Umbreon seeing more usage, since it is really hurt by things like Ursaring, Machamp, Hariyama, Rhydon, and Metagross. 

 

I would ask that we hold off on any ban (I mean we still have a few weeks before we can ban something thanks to the Gengar ban one-month hiatus) and see how Chansey effects the tier for a couple tournaments. If it really is a problem, then we move forward with a suspect test ban to compare metas with and without Chansey. It will be another long, drawn out process but we don't want to ban something without merit. 

[KaynineXL]

Yeah, except with Umbreon you have no NC, need to run heal-bell to protect from Toxic Stall, can't ST and you die to CM Signal Beam/have to choose between Pursuit/Toxic as your damage output.

 

Of course you could sack Wish/Protect for moonlight, but then you're nowhere near as effective as Chansey at supporting.

Umbreon has its perks too. Doesn't care about pursuit, resists ghost + dark with psychic immunity. Sure it can't NC but it can sync which is handy. You can replace protect with aroma since you don't need to worry about pursuit. The only 2 signal users I can think of are Espeon and Zam.. I'v not calc'd but I think Umbreon can win.

[DoubleJ]

Umbreon has its perks too. Doesn't care about pursuit, resists ghost + dark with psychic immunity. Sure it can't NC but it can sync which is handy. You can replace protect with aroma since you don't need to worry about pursuit. The only 2 signal users I can think of are Espeon and Zam.. I'v not calc'd but I think Umbreon can win.

 

I'm glad you pointed this out, because I don't see very many negatives in banning Chansey since we still have very respectable special walls that can even perform better in some scenarios without simply PP stalling the offensive threat. 

[KaynineXL]

I'm glad you pointed this out, because I don't see very many negatives in banning Chansey since we still have very respectable special walls that can even perform better in some scenarios without simply PP stalling the offensive threat. 

Honestly, if you guys want to ban it to see what will happen, go ahead. It really doesn't make much difference imo.

 

I wouldn't say I'm against the Chansey ban, I just think it's a little pointless. You do what you gotta do Jbrah.