BurntZebra Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 Raichu could see some usage now potentially as pikachu was moved to UU by usage, although it feels outclassed by electabuzz as a special attacker and most other physical attackers outclass the physical set. Link to comment
Winterclaw Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) You mean it might get banned because you don't have a valid argument? Atm kecleon is the only thing that can actually kind of switch in vs Walrein, although it doesn't have much viability in the meta and hates the potential toxic from Walrein. No i mean this discussion aint a real discussion, Council dosent seem to listen what ppl are saying, instead they are destroying any idea comes through their way. [spoiler] And for a record; im not agaisnt walrein ban its just feels bad when it happens this way, the way "council" talks with people who dont have same ideals with them about subject. [/spoiler] Orange already listed whole tier and how many tier council members actually read that wall of text? BurntZebra cant even see poliwrath is faster. lol... I wouldn't say poliwrath or lapras are hard counters. Assuming they switch in on super fang, they can only take two hidden powers each, neither outspeed Walrein Edited November 21, 2015 by Winterclaw Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 No i mean this discussion aint a real discussion, Council dosent seem to listen what ppl are saying, instead they are destroying any idea comes through their way. Orange already listed whole tier and how many tier council members actually read that wall of text? BurntZebra cant even see poliwrath is faster. lol... There hasn't been that much discussion going on, especially on the side of keeping walrein in NU. Kecleon works to some extent sure, although it sees no usage and isn't too viable outside of handling walrein. Scyther and raichu can potentially revenge kill walrein but they won't like switching in at all. Scyther also loses if its any set besides reversal, a set that not many people run anyways. I don't think anyone runs max speed adamaant choice band poliwrath. Its either sub drum jolly poliwrath which would ruin any chance of it sweeping if it comes in vs a hidden power electric or super fang, or its a bulky set, either sub punch or just pure defensive, which is outsped by the standard offensive walrein. Orange listed the tier, although he mentioned stuff like arbok/hitmonchan which get about 0 usage in NU, which makes some pokemon not really worth bringing into the argument. Link to comment
Winterclaw Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Yes but still, you are just ignoring basic counters for walrein, Its either sub drum jolly poliwrath which would ruin any chance of it sweeping if it comes in vs a hidden power electric or super fang, 252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 68-80 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Bellydrum Poliwrath will surely kill walrein on 1v1 even after he switches in superfang. And you just ignored its counters with your 2nd comment in this post; another quote from you as it follows; There are basically no Pokemon that can switch in vs a super fang and not die to a surf or ice beam. Thats nothing but saying "We decided to ban this pokemon no matter what you say" in my book. Thats why im upset about these so called "discussion" topics. Edited November 21, 2015 by Winterclaw Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 Yes but still, you are just ignoring basic counters for walrein, 252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 68-80 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Bellydrum Poliwrath will surely kill walrein on 1v1 even after he switches in superfang. And you just ignored its counters with your 2nd comment in this post; another quote from you as it follows; Thats nothing but saying "We decided to ban this pokemon no matter what you say" in my book. Thats why im upset about these so called "discussion" topics. 252 Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 102-122 (55.1 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery belly drum poliwrath will surely not kill walrein. It would also help if you used the right damage calc 252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 78-94 (46.9 - 56.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO Link to comment
Winterclaw Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) IS THAT AFTER +6? this is +6 bellydrum and hp electric. im using showdown. +6 252 Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 34 Def Walrein: 438-516 (236.7 - 278.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 68-80 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Edit: Showdown's base hp power is 60 not 70 rip. 252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 78-94 (47.2 - 56.9%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO I might made a mistake about this calculation beacuse of showdown's base hp power is set to 60 by default but at least i dont open a discussion page with single-minded behavior. Anyway im not gonna reply follow nor read discussion pages until i see council members(not all of them) are open to real discussion. Peace :P Edited November 21, 2015 by Winterclaw Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 IS THAT AFTER +6? this is +6 bellydrum and hp electric 70power, im using showdown. +6 252 Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 34 Def Walrein: 438-516 (236.7 - 278.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 68-80 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Poliwrath most definitely can't set up a belly drum vs walrein that does 50% with super fang and 50% with hp electric 252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 78-94 (46.9 - 56.6%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (your calc is still hidden power electric with 60 power) Link to comment
Viking Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 people allready said that but i'll repeat again, Walrein is just too bulky for the others NUs and has a strong capacity of destruction. There is noothing more to add... Idk why you want obviously keep this thing in NU, if you like this poke, use it in UU. Link to comment
KaynineXL Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Porygon seems pretty decent for Walrein, I remember having one for OU but I didn't evolve so I decided to try it in NU and it wasn't too bad. Porygon can take Super fang as it's got instant recovery. It laughs at Ice beam because it can trace Walreins Thick Fat. 252+ SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Porygon: 30-36 (17.4 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery Surf can do some nice damage, but at least it can't freeze, so crit is the only way it's going to win. 252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon: 58-70 (33.7 - 40.6%) -- 57% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Porygon has a great moveset which includes Twave, Toxic, Tbolt which no Walrein would like. 0 SpA Porygon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Walrein: 68-82 (36.7 - 44.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery I'm not saying this should make it not ban worthy, just thought this was worth mentioning on this thread. Arimanius, Tritios, Robofiend and 1 other 4 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Yeah bulky normals are probably the best answer to Walrein in general like kecleon, wiggly tuff, and porygon. I've seen a few porygons used in NU but not really a significant amount overall. Porygon will probably lose to Walrein in actual game conditions due to spikes/toxic/general damage done to porygon because of its not at like 90% hp or higher, then porygon has a chance of losing. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
KaynineXL Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 What's going on with bans? Taking so long for a decision. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 What's going on with bans? Taking so long for a decision. I'm still for banning it, but other tier council members haven't really been that impressed with it the past few NU tournaments. People are running grumpig+electabuzz+lapras to prevent walrein from sweeping, so atm the meta has sort of adapted to walrein, although to me it still feels rather centralizing. Other council members are in the "wait and see" mode atm afaik. gbwead 1 Link to comment
KaynineXL Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I'm still for banning it, but other tier council members haven't really been that impressed with it the past few NU tournaments. People are running grumpig+electabuzz+lapras to prevent walrein from sweeping, so atm the meta has sort of adapted to walrein, although to me it still feels rather centralizing. Other council members are in the "wait and see" mode atm afaik. and all of those get 50% of their health removed on switch.. and no instant recovery.. they don't stop Walrein. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Curious if anyone has more thoughts on this. I've been using Walrein a bit, some thoughts: Damn, it's good against stall, but it struggles to get OHKO's. I imagine that with Spikes it's totally deadly though. The lack of OHKO's hurts tho when you think you're going to nuke Roselia or Hitmontop and then they hit back for SE damage. Lack of OHKO's really hurts against Wish teams. Lapras is a huge pain unless you have an HP to hit it, and even then it can abuse Surf/Ice Beam really well and has some pretty awesome bulk. Timid Lapras outspeeds, can come in on both of Wal's STABs (or even Super Fang) can pretty handily 2HKO you with Tbolt. While Walrein might not always stay in, Lapras is also versatile enough to cover other threats (like Grumpig) that might otherwise abuse the free entrance.252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 76-90 (37 - 43.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Lapras Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Walrein: 90-108 (48.6 - 58.3%) -- 64.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery It's typing is awful. With Sneasel, Hitmontop, Electabuzz and a million other pokemon carrying moves to hit it, Walrein can't come into play very regularly and when it does it needs to be played well to work. If you look at NU Viability rankings you'll see that most, if not all of the A/S rank pokemon in the tier can take a solid chunk out of Walrein with an SE move, meaning getting into play is hard and staying around long enough to fully abuse SF/Surf/Beam/HP is even harder. It works really well on some teams. If you have a team that checks Electabuzz/Sneasel/SpDef Hitmontop and Lapras really well then Walrein can be awesome for getting some quick kills. If you don't (not many do) then that means you're all the more weaker to a lot of top threats. Definitely not the end of discussion, but that's just what I've noticed about Walrein from using it myself. It seems like something that's way scarier on paper than in practice. gbwead and Boutet 2 Link to comment
Frag Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I haven't seen many walreins actually, I stopped from using it personally, with lapras and hypno around there are better options. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
KaynineXL Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I haven't seen many walreins actually, I stopped from using it personally, with lapras and hypno around there are better options. Still think Walrein is really good, probably too good. The reason why Walrein isn't used as much as you'd expect is probably because it's actually got good some real good competition for the bulky water spot, Lapras as you said, and Poliwrath. Link to comment
Tyrone Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The Tier Council have shifted focus on Zangoose instead of Walrein for NU. So I'll be locking this thread now. Link to comment
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