[NU Discussion] Walrein

[BurntZebra]

 

Sets:

Fast Sweeper (main threat)

 

Walrein @ Leftovers  

Ability: Thick Fat  

EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe  

Modest Nature  

- Ice Beam  

- Hidden Power [Electric]  

- Super Fang  

- Surf  

 

Bring the Rein (Walrein) @ Salac Berry  

Ability: Thick Fat  

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe  

Jolly Nature  

- Waterfall  

- Return  

- Belly Drum  

- Substitute  

 

Walrein @ Leftovers  

Ability: Thick Fat  

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe  

Bold Nature  

- Super Fang  

- Rest  

- Toxic  

- Ice Beam  

 

Other move options include earthquake to hit electric types, crunch to hit psychic types harder, encore for slower things that try to set up, and potentially curse/stockpile to become incredibly difficult to take down.

 

The fast sweeper set is the main culprit here, being able to super fang any non ghost threat for 50% of their health, then usually is able to attack with one of its stab attacks or hidden power electric before the other pokemon can even move. Bulky waters have little chance to beat walrein, as they are all ko'ed by the combination of super fang+two hidden powers. Calm mind psychic types are capable of beating walrein, but must watch out for crunch or encore. 

 

Walrein reaches a respectable speed of 117 with max speed investment with a neutral speed nature, being able to outspeed most of the threats in NU, leaving only the frail faster threats, which are usually met with a quick death if they come in vs one of walrein's stab attacks. 

 

For these reasons, the Tier Council want to discuss if Walrein meets the requirements of the offensive characteristic and if it should be banned to BL2.

Please use this thread to discuss whether you believe Walrein should be moved up to BL2 or stay in NU.

[Liberalisme]

Lel can't take this serious, why would this be BL2 when Blastoise is a better comp. Also Water-Ice type is shit. Bringing this to BL2 would ruin the whole pokemon.

[BurntZebra]

Lel can't take this serious, why would this be BL2 when Blastoise is a better comp. Also Water-Ice type is shit. Bringing this to BL2 would ruin the whole pokemon.

Blastoise is uu now so it's not a valid comparison. Water and ice coverage is powerful in NU in conjunction with super fang and hidden power coverage. There are basically no Pokemon that can switch in vs a super fang and not die to a surf or ice beam.

Also BL2 is not a playable tier; it is just the Pokemon that are banned from NU but do not have enough usage for UU. BL2 is just Jynx and fearow afaik and there's no way to "ruin" a thing that isn't even a tier.

[Liberalisme]

Ah haven't really played that much lately but its good to see Blastoise moving up to UU. But I played some NU battles (in Vermilion x) ) and I haven't played against someone with a Walrein, are so many people using him lately?

[IndigoGlacier]

Haven't really fought any fast walrein's, so idk. Usually it's the curse sets.

[OldKeith]

Salac sweepers continue to be a problem in pokemmo in the absence of a reliable priority move on most of our pokemon. Walrein is remarkably bulky, even with no defensive investment. Having all this considered, I would like to see some calculations regarding the Belly Drum set. The other sets are pretty manageable, the way I see it, although a Curse set might be too much too.

[DoubleJ]

The top tier players have all adopted a sweeper walrein with speed, a beneficial hp, and super fang. It cripples everything and even has the potential to sweep. Thick fat also increases its already incredible defensive capabilities.

[Robofiend]

The super fang set is pretty insane, in fact, I think it's the only truly "broken" set. Usually the player brings Walrein in against something slower and relatively offenseless: Flareon, Mantine, another wall. Walrein can then chunk 50% of the switch in's health and then hit it with a super-effective move, given that HP Electric, Surf and Ice Beam hit pretty much everything. Common "good idea" switch ins like Grumpig, Mantine or Poliwrath get bopped for lots of damage on the switch, allowing Walrein to either finish them off (if they're slow) or swap to an appropriate counter and come in later to do more damage.

 

Walrein's respectable bulk allows it to take a hit from pretty much any sweeper in the tier and its STAB combo allows it to do a ton of damage to anything trying to switch in. Players are essentially left with a no-win situation - either send in a sweeper and hope you don't get Ice Beamed, or send in a wall and hope Walrein doesn't Super-Fang you to death. In either event, it's really easy for Walrein to get a kill once it's in play, largely because of its respectable bulk and great movepool.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Scyther Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 238-282 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Unpredictability can help it too: if you think it's going to Super Fang and then it Sub-drums, your team could be in trouble since priority is not super common lately and Water/Normal has good coverage against most of the tier. Sets like this one make sending in an otherwise pretty safe Wynaut scary.  

 

I'd say it might meet the offensive criteria, although it's not immediately clear that it'll be broken with Blastoise gone, Poliwrath rising in popularity, Whishcash becoming more popular and specially bulky Wish passers like Lickitung or Hypno seeing more use that Walrein will actually be Uber or even unhealthy really. 

[DoubleJ]

How is wrath hoping to do any different when it faces super fang and an se hp hit? And probs slower.

If hp grass then rip cash (most walrein right now are grass from old meta).

Wish passers could be decent against it with stall

[BurntZebra]

252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Whiscash: 94-112 (43.3 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

and I doubt whiscash is running special defense evs, and obv hp grass would destroy it, although I see hp electric being more useful. 

 

Poliwrath is outsped by walrein and cannot ohko walrein so at best, it will brick break walrein once before it dies, assuming it switches in on a super fang (which is arguably the easiest to spam move).

 

Lickitung also sees little to no usage, considering it takes 50k BP to get wish+heal bell on it, not to mention it has no offense vs walrein, meaning its best bet is to just pp stall walrein. 

[Robofiend]

252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Whiscash: 94-112 (43.3 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

and I doubt whiscash is running special defense evs, and obv hp grass would destroy it, although I see hp electric being more useful. 

 

Poliwrath is outsped by walrein and cannot ohko walrein so at best, it will brick break walrein once before it dies, assuming it switches in on a super fang (which is arguably the easiest to spam move).

 

Lickitung also sees little to no usage, considering it takes 50k BP to get wish+heal bell on it, not to mention it has no offense vs walrein, meaning its best bet is to just pp stall walrein. 

 

Poliwrath is base 70, lol and speedy 'Wrath master race

 

252+ Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 126-150 (68.1 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 68-80 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Just sayin, Wrath is a beast. Doesn't mean it should stay for sure, but even a defenseless Adamant Wrath can be effective.

 

Licki/other walls can just Toxic stall the Walrein, now that Haunter's gone there's no real punishment for running Return/Toxic or what have you.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Robofiend

[KaynineXL]

How about Calm Missy with Pain split + CM?

[BurntZebra]

 

Poliwrath is base 70, lol and speedy 'Wrath master race

 

252+ Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 126-150 (68.1 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 68-80 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Just sayin, Wrath is a beast. Doesn't mean it should stay for sure, but even a defenseless Adamant Wrath can be effective.

 

Licki/other walls can just Toxic stall the Walrein, now that Haunter's gone there's no real punishment for running Return/Toxic or what have you.

 

252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 78-94 (46.1 - 55.6%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I assume you calc'ed with 60 base hidden power. It can get some quick damage on walrein potentially, although someone during the autumn tournament did have a timid walrein that had a few surprise speed wins. 

 

252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickitung: 63-75 (31.9 - 38%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

still don't see lickitung doing a whole lot, its pretty much forced to wish as soon as it comes in or else it'll die before it can wish, if it toxics walrein first.

There aren't really that many other "walls" to be honest, and most of them are in the same situation as lickitung either way. 

 

How about Calm Missy with Pain split + CM?

252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Misdreavus: 58-69 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

It could potentially work, although you're just asking to be critted or frozen or even encored or crunch'ed 

0 Atk Walrein Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 78-92 (46.7 - 55%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

[KaynineXL]

 

It could potentially work, although you're just asking to be critted or frozen or even encored or crunch'ed 

0 Atk Walrein Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 78-92 (46.7 - 55%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

Yep, It's probably too risky to use.

 

 

I'v not used Walrein, or played against it too much.. He seems pretty good, but those weaknesses really do weaken his 1v1 capability against quite a lot I feel.

[Robofiend]

He seems pretty good, but those weaknesses really do weaken his 1v1 capability against quite a lot I feel.

 

The weaknesses aren't *that* noticeable, tbh. We have a couple fighting type attacks in the tier (Wrath/Top/CB Scyther), a couple Tbolt users (Lapras, Electabuzz, Trode), one of two things that run Giga Drain, and the only things that run Rock Slide (Pinsir, Armaldo, Golem?, Aggron) aren't the types of things that Walrein wants to switch in on, nor are they things that can reliably switch in, which is where the real problem comes in, imo. Combine this with the fact that Walrein outspeeds almost every Rock Slider in the tier and you've got instant fear of having something get picked off.

 

Walrein really abuses the tier because of how common Mantine, Flareon and wall Grumpig are - all of whom lack the firepower or diversity to actually break through Thick Fat. Because of how unlikely it is that it will come in on a SE attack, Walrein comes in relatively unscathed against a lot of things and when you combine its coverage with Super Fang you get a wall-breaking machine that's almost as good as Victrebell (plsban). Lastly, a lot of great pokes in NU have trouble getting into play safely in the first place (Scyther fears RS, Poliwrath hates EQ, Grumpig hates random Dark/Bug type attacks), so the fact that Walrein is useful and switches in reliably against common walls is pretty awesome.

 

I think all things considered I'd be for banning Walrein as it's never really satisfactory (to me) to say "oh just Toxic it to death" unless the pokemon both sets up (unlike Walrein, who's useful out of the gate) and has a couple of great checks who can stall while Toxic takes its toll or forces it to switch out.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Robofiend

[KaynineXL]

The weaknesses aren't *that* noticeable, tbh. We have a couple fighting type attacks in the tier (Wrath/Top/CB Scyther), a couple Tbolt users (Lapras, Electabuzz, Trode), one of two things that run Giga Drain, and the only things that run Rock Slide (Pinsir, Armaldo, Golem?, Aggron) aren't the types of things that Walrein wants to switch in on, nor are they things that can reliably switch in, which is where the real problem comes in, imo. Combine this with the fact that Walrein outspeeds almost every Rock Slider in the tier and you've got instant fear of having something get picked off.

 

Walrein really abuses the tier because of how common Mantine, Flareon and wall Grumpig are - all of whom lack the firepower or diversity to actually break through Thick Fat. Because of how unlikely it is that it will come in on a SE attack, Walrein comes in relatively unscathed against a lot of things and when you combine its coverage with Super Fang you get a wall-breaking machine that's almost as good as Victrebell (plsban). Lastly, a lot of great pokes in NU have trouble getting into play safely in the first place (Scyther fears RS, Poliwrath hates EQ, Grumpig hates random Dark/Bug type attacks), so the fact that Walrein is useful and switches in reliably against common walls is pretty awesome.

 

I think all things considered I'd be for banning Walrein as it's never really satisfactory (to me) to say "oh just Toxic it to death" unless the pokemon both sets up (unlike Walrein, who's useful out of the gate) and has a couple of great checks who can stall while Toxic takes its toll or forces it to switch out.

Well, Walrein dislikes EQs just as much as Poliwrath so that's not really a good argument.

 

All I'm saying is, I'v seen Walrein a fair amount, it seems pretty good.. I just don't see it doing anything spectacular.

[BurntZebra]

Well, Walrein dislikes EQs just as much as Poliwrath so that's not really a good argument.

 

All I'm saying is, I'v seen Walrein a fair amount, it seems pretty good.. I just don't see it doing anything spectacular.

Wonder how frags won like 3 NU tournaments in a row? Offensive walrein on nearly all his teams, even ampharos meta didn't really stop walrein that well. 

[KaynineXL]

Wonder how frags won like 3 NU tournaments in a row? Offensive walrein on nearly all his teams, even ampharos meta didn't really stop walrein that well. 

Probably not just down to Walrein. There are others that use it and lost.

 

 

It would be combined with good team building and good play.

[OrangeManiac]

Walrein didn't seem so insane on paper but I absolutely hated to battle against it. The moment when you thought you would do some damage to it, it just ate everything up and when you thought it was a tank it was speed invested and everything you had in mind to stop this thing didn't. Now in addition that Ampharos is gone, Pikachu is gone as a revenge killer and Blastoise is gone which at least was a reliable thing to send to Toxic this thing there are barely any counters to Walrein left at all and base stat and movepool wise probably the best NU Pokemon right now.

[BurntZebra]

Probably not just down to Walrein. There are others that use it and lost.


It would be combined with good team building and good play.

I still see fools running the defensive set that lacks hidden power coverage and for the most part, the defensive set was outclassed by toise due to no rock/fighting weakness. The people who run offensive Walrein on average do better. Obviously Walrein isn't a sure fire win, as someone can run lapras+electabuzz+grumpig on one team and sort of handle Walrein to some extent.

[KaynineXL]

Hmm, on paper, I feel Walrein doesn't look that ban worthy.

 

I think the problem is, we don't have any ghosts with much bulk(not even specially defensive Sableye can deal with it) and on top of that almost all of our special walls have no reliable recovery.

 

That said, Hypno seems like it can do pretty well against it. I'm undecided as of yet, I think we need a few tournaments to check it out.

[Frag]

People running stall is the only punished by this poke i'd say, wish flareon instead cb is an easy switch in.
vs more aggressive players is really hard find a hole to come in, even though sp sweepers are usually faster than cb users it loses against most of them, so walrein its just a wall breaker. Well, we got a reliable wisher sp wall now, so it will lose a loot of pawa.

btw, like gligar, toise was a good switch in to spam fang (not a counter), also other sets than sp att are poop.

[felix]

I just must point out that the not loved Kecleon is a pretty good spdef wall with insta recover.

 

[spoiler]

inb4 someone says that it has no usage, but who the fuck runs crunch walrein?

[/spoiler]

[IndigoGlacier]

I just must point out that the not loved Kecleon is a pretty good spdef wall with insta recover.

 

[spoiler]

inb4 someone says that it has no usage, but who the fuck runs crunch walrein?

[/spoiler]

 

but yeah, not much people run these sets anymore. It's not as effective as superfang + hp grass/elec. 

[BurntZebra]

I just must point out that the not loved Kecleon is a pretty good spdef wall with insta recover.

 

[spoiler]

inb4 someone says that it has no usage, but who the fuck runs crunch walrein?

[/spoiler]

Hidden power grass walrein would utterly destroy it with hidden power grass changing it to a grass type then it needs to take an ice beam, then surf is neutral damage. It also has no offense vs walrein, basically relying on thunder wave to do anything. Kecleon is also fairly unviable and underused within NU.