TohnR

I mean fair but if you disregard usages strict rule, then you have to provide actual arguments or reasoning to TC's decisions. You can't just drop random incoherent movements and expect it'll be fine. So far all arguments I've read from TC towards Crobat & Ditto to raise to OU were purely usage related. Again they are not bad changes, it's just extremely confusing. So far all arguments I've read from TC about Sharpedo & Quagsire to raise to UU were ... wait ? Yea there wasn't even any justification to these ever I'm just asking for facts. We can't discuss if no point is made in the first place ...

What I don't understand is why you would have to vote for usage movements ? Aren't those done by default ? Gonna ask the same question again but how come some 2% mons will be raising while 5% ones won't ? That's very counter intuitive and can't be justified without proper arguments You can't just say "We had 5 dudes that don't play the tier vote, they think those 2% mons are more relevant than the 5% ones so they'll raise"

@Imperial TheDH that gigantic dog said he is unable to pay his 100k debt and that he wants to be blacklisted ... I guess if you scam the signup system you're also bound to scam the betting 🙂

I don't think it would make any sense to raise Quags and Sharpedo which are lower than Sableye, Poliwrath, Clef, Golbat, Ambipom & possibly some others. I guess you saw that Golbat isn't used with Infiltrator in UU so you thought that HAs have no impact on that hence no movements. I would agree ! However if you're raising Crobat it's obvious that Golbat - even if it is worse - will end up in the top10 usages for UU next month so you should preemptively raise it, all the more since it is already above the cutoff. For Poliwrath, it is literally one of the central mons of the tier what is the reasoning for keeping it in NU ? Cloyster, Jellicent & Xatu are fine, wouldn't Ludicolo also drop in that situation ?

Not planning to take any role like this but I can work with whoever is selected to do the viability ranking given that I have a little experience from PCL 🙂

Because it is the best support for setting up available... It's way better than Screens Electrode in Under Used in my opinion Sure those teams are very coinflip teams that aren't consistent long term, but they're still uncompetitive. That is because you cannot really play around wobbuffet itself since they will threaten you with unstoppable setup options if you get encored into any other move that actually threatens it, if they built their team properly. I'm purely talking about how it is in UU at least, but I know that if it is deemed uncompetitive a certain someone will ask that it is for every tier out of tiering consistency

I mean it's impossible not to see that Poliwrath is a centric mon for the UU metagame and the 3rd highest winrate (was 2nd before Crawdaunt got released, so it was already great before) There is no way it doesn't reach 8-10% usage next month at least. It was already a niche pick before, it became standard in stall builds since Feral got its Hidden Ability and even more so now that we have Crawdaunt/Sharpedo HAs, it is even used in balanced/offense teams with different sets. I have played a bit on the ladder and while Crawdaunt isn't an auto win it still does a lot of work against teams that carry its counters (namely Poliwrath/Toxicroak) and has quite an easy time finding turns to get in on the field compared to other offensive powerhouses such as Mammoswine or Medicham. Crawdaunt is kinda free momentum against Bronzong & Slowbro most notably, as well as Foulplay users such as Umbreon & Mandibuzz that can't really touch it It is capable to win against offensive teams while being a Wallbreaker because of its overwhelming priority that can OHKO Arcanine, Nidoqueen, Venomoth, RotomH, Mamoswine, Yanmega, Zoroark, Mismagius & Krookodile after rocks. Even if you call the right move, mons such as Roserade die from Crab hammer + Aqua jet if it uses a standard moveset I would say the main drawback to Crawdaunt is you are often forced into Crunch because of the high amount of Water Absorbers in the meta, but even then it's the only thing that prevents it from freely getting a kill every time it attacks. Other than that I don't think usage is very relevant especially in UU, where I've legit only seen people test the newer mons and use mostly Crawdaunt centered teams (either use it or counter it, basically). I don't think you should raise anything based on usage this month (as far as I know Ambipom, Clefable & Golbat didn't suddenly gain viability) If you end up bringing Crobat up to OU regardless, please drop Jellicent to help against bugs such as Yanmega 🙂 Also how come Wobbuffet isn't going to Uber instead ? 🤔

@OrangeManiac Caio gathered usages from the PCL (by Quinn) and VGC League (by Doc) and probably used the usages to determine the viability He knows his list is flawed 😄

I'd gladly help you with a future 1v1 Viability Ranking, should also get in touch with @repposh in game as he has the most knowledge of the tier, if you want to do that.

@BryceWhat this game always needed was a quest system, daily stuff to have a reason to login, reward tracks ect They did something similar to this with the new PVP system (even tho it is heavily flawed because you just really need to grind games and the rewards are mediocre compared to PVE grinding) and now with the Alpha swarms that pop sporadically every ingame day. Hopefully in the future they will keep adding more activities with dedicated timings to do accross the day instead of having people farm the same trainers over and over

I'm not going against the usage movements ofc I was just saying that it's not a good idea to say just bump Crobat in OU now as if it doesn't imply much more than just 1 change And yes it is very relevant to warn about the consequences and not just randomly decide to bump it even tho it is bellow the cutoff (which is actually not 4.36% this month but that's irrelevant). The fact that we decided that changes would occur manually was to avoid having to rely on usages in a chaos of new daily additions, and now you are arguing about solely usages and how Ditto and Crobat should raise to OU. Anyways I understand the idea, don't understand the urge to move them based on 1 week of chaotic ladder usages

Golbat or Quagsire aren't mons that are as splashable you're intentionally missing the point. With Crobat around Yanmega is already overpowered and would be banned if not for x4 weakness to rocks. Without Crobat around all offensive/bulky offensive/balanced teams no longer can access any soft check for Yanmega other than Snorlax. You already know Yanmega calcs against the UU tier I'm not teaching you anything here

You do realize that raising Crobat now would imply that multiple mons must be considered for a ban in Under Used ? Because Crobat is the only mon that currently can be used in offense / bulky offense against threats such as Yanmega, Heracross & Durant Golbat can't compare with Crobat at all for what they do in UU. Raise it now and you also have to at least put Yanmega in BL range

Then this is a great idea 🙂

You can't do that, otherwise Defog can no longer be punished through Defiant and that would be extremely unfair

You don't have to return all the way. Just kill the alpha, log off, log on (you won't have a queue as you were recently online) and then you can battle the Alpha again without any sort of delay

Actually this is the best solution. It still implies that every player has to prepare within the 6/12 hours for the changes but it's better than having a mon suddenly be available in the middle of an ongoing tournament

This is exactly why I suggested that shiny tournaments would be postponed to after HAs release is over with. You can't expect from hosts/devs to adapt their "random" swarm spawns to tours and such, so the only option is to adapt tours to the situation You had an unfair disadvantage in your shiny finals against SweeT because he had access to HAs released that same day and during the tournament. Plenty of people tell me "It's just a tour, it's temporary, whatever" but I understand being frustrated if I were in your shoes ngl About the recent changes, I think Sharpedo / Gligar / Xatu should at least be placed in UU. No idea about OU but Xatu seems to be a good replacement for Espeon there so it seems fair to start it in OU

Sure, Analytics give Specs Magneton enough wallbreaking capabilities to be considered in UU/NU with a choice specs. That is mainly due to the fact that if the opponent is switching out it will trigger Analytics damage boost. Here are some of the damage output I have considered for UU, but the point stands for NU and is actually amplified there. (Note : Hidden Power Ground would be prefered for NU) First let's look at the volt blockers with viability : 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Flygon: 117-138 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 165-195 (106.4 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 213-252 (95.9 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 220 HP / 196+ SpD Nidoqueen: 117-138 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 157-186 (95.1 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 207-244 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 216-256 (104.3 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 228-272 (104.5 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 208-246 (112.4 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Hidden Power Grass (or Flash Canon) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 182-216 (107 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO Now let's look at mons that cannot prevent momentum but that would want to wall Magneton : 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 93-111 (46 - 54.9%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 105-124 (39.3 - 46.4%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 152-182 (79.1 - 94.7%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 63-75 (42.8 - 51%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 73-87 (46.4 - 55.4%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Mow: 65-77 (52 - 61.6%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 120-142 (59.4 - 70.2%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 118-141 (59.8 - 71.5%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 102-121 (58.6 - 69.5%) Now let's see Magneton damage output against offensive Pokemon known for having a decent special bulk : 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 132-156 (97.7 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mismagius: 148-175 (109.6 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 162-192 (104.5 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 145-172 (92.3 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Scrafty: 109-130 (63.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I will not mention pokemon such as Feraligatr, Crawdaunt, Slowbro, Yanmega, Sigilyph, Durant, Vaporeon, Crobat, Mandibuzz, Poliwrath which Magneton has a natural advantage against and that aren't expected to be able to live a Specs hit anyways. As you can see Magneton is literally one of those mons that always comes out with a kill or momentum if it clicks the right move, which means it has viability as a wallbreaker that can pivot. Of course it doesn't have the best defensive stats and speed but it does have a typing that lets him come on a variety of walls and a few choice locked attackers (for instance it claims a kill if Krook locks in Crunch). Umbreon, Dusclops and Snorlax can wall Magneton but cannot really damage it while being forced into a recovery loop that just gives free momentum Obviously I did not put calcs for Magneton specs without Analytics here because it wouldn't be viable, as it misses most of the OHKOs mentionned here The most basic example would be against the most used Volt Blocker : 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 127-150 (81.9 - 96.7%)

I think this thread was created specifically so that the community could voice their opinion and so far they have been listenned to as the only issue that remains discussed is Crawdaunt. I agree with all of what Luke said 😄 I know that eventually TC will place Crawdaunt in OU anyway so I'll try to test it while it's still here but I think it's too early And Sharpedo should be placed in UU even if it faces strong competition there with Crawdaunt & Feral, but it has a unique trait that makes it viable with this HA

Useful post but you're defaming Analytics Magneton ... 😞 It really is a useful ability even tho the other 2 are also useful in their own ways

You don't understand that for the Tier Council, Untiered isn't a tier, and there is no movements between UT and NU other than every other month's usage check It only exists to help clarify because back in the day the NU pokedex was a mess with hundreds of Pokemon What Caio meant is that Stall becomes broken with Prank Sableye in Untiered, which is irrelevant because it isn't a proper tier. About the main point of this thread, I think all decisions were overall good. I would have placed Crawdaunt in OU mostly to give time to the meta to evolve before it drops in UU, because I expect it to drop at one point but I also expect a lot of mons to drop from OU given the amount of new mons available. I would have placed Quagsire in NU because I don't think it will raise to UU by usage when the meta is stabilized, and it is overall a bad thing for NU to lose it but it's just an opinion I guess. I'm not gonna fight for that. About Magneton yes it is relevant and I like that it is monitored as a whole mon by itself, I believe it has a lot of potential in UU but I have yet to prove it. Shouldn't be an issue to keep it in NU for now Edit : Pinsir NU/Untiered Moxie doesn't really change much and it loses a better ability (Mold Breaker for Earthquake against Rotom) by acquiring it

I think that Magneton Analytics will be a great asset for the NU & UU metagame as Magneton does a poor job at trapping the steels in those tiers. However nothing that justifies being placed to UU instantly, so it's fair to keep them where they are Crawdaunt should probably start in OU and could be considered for UU in the future depending on the next meta changes that will happen in OU I'm assuming multiple mons will drop to UU due to the amount of mons being added to OU, that's when Crawdaunt should be looked at. It uses the same combo that Feraligatr uses to wallbreak but with more power, less speed & bulk. Meaning it's easier to handle for offensive teams and harder for defensive teams

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Tiering Quagsire in UU is questionable. There is absolutely no reason why the mon wouldn't be available in NU. For sure these mons could become used in UU (Ditto, Sableye, Quags) but their powerlevel doesn't justify it yet and their place in the metagame is unclear since they are facing a lot of competition from mons with higher stats capable of accomplishing similar tasks, considering that Quagsire without Water Absorb isn't a Feraligatr counter as it can only safely wall it with leftovers which means he doesn't ever damage Feral in return. 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 87-105 (43 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery It for sure will be good against other mons such as Bisharp, Durant, Arcanine & Toxicroak but on that side there is already walls Donphan & Poliwrath that can fill similar roles. I don't see a reason to ban mons from their initial tiers if they are reasonable to use in said tiers unless we know for certain that they will rise within a short period of time. Not a big deal tho for NU to lose those tho, I just wanted to have a word about it