Robofiend
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Posts posted by Robofiend
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Y'all are underselling Claydol as a spinner and quakeslide blocker.
Also I'm skeptical about Jynx, its relatively slow and frail and one scarf pursuit ruins it.
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I'm going to go ahead and do the devil's advocate thing here: Houndoom doesn't need to be banned because we have options for it. In particular, these options are useful for dealing with other threats that the metagame has in store.
Things that deal with Doom:
- Cradily: already a mainstay, Cradily has the wallpower to sponge Houndoom attacks for defensive teams. While Scizor and Breloom both punish it, Dilly's defensive synergy with Vileplume is pretty awesome unless the enemy is packing a CB EQ user like Donphan.
- Miltank: Miltank's solid defenses and instant healing make it a natural Doom slayer. Another pokemon that synergizes amazingly with Vileplume, as it covers Fire/Ice well and can run Heal Bell to prevent Toxic from taking its defensive teammates down. Its overall favorable stats, access to Curse and cleric abilities, and useful ability are underrated, imo.
- Altaria: Super underrated imo, as it can deal with Fire, Ground, Fighting, Grass, Water and status without support. NC lets it abuse Rest, EQ covers Fire and Electric types, and Fire Blast gives it some recourse against other common walls. Status is another useful option, as Toxic/Fire Blast is a pretty effective combo in UU. Hidden power Ice is pretty much never-used on Houndoom or other special sweepers because it opens your team up to Quagsire or Omastar, both of whom are pretty useful.
- Diglett: While currently rare, it does two three really well with Scarf attached - trapping Doom, Tentacruel and Manectric. Memento gives it a last ditch option to neuter other sweepers to give teammates a setup opportunity and these 3 OHKO's are reasons to consider it on a team. Nonetheless, its papery defenses mean it's only going to be around to revenge-kill, which definitely hampers it.
- Shuckle: Imo this thing is pretty bad, but its stallpower is useful now that it can abuse LO recoil. enough defense to handle pretty much anything but outside of rocking Encore, it totally fails keep setup sweepers at bay.
- Magcargo: while this thing is also rare, it has a sure niche in the tier. 30% burn chance from Flame Body is a solid way to keep Dodrio from spamming its way to victory and its defense is high enough to withstand repeated assault from Swellow, even with a Guts boost (though Dodrio's Low-Kick can be damning). Other Normal sweepers like Zangoose (who often just runs Fire/Normal) have little hope against it and even Scizor can fall victim to a well-timed swap-in, if the burn rubs off. It also does a good job of stalling out Miltank, barring the relatively uncommon EQ, and with the myriad of Pokemon that we have to handle Water type attacks, it can effectively pair up with other walls for defense.
- Torkoal: Similar to Magcargo without the cool ability or instant healing, but overall not that great outside of EQ and Rapid Spin.
I think the main thing that is making Houndoom look really broken is that the tier hasn't had enough time to adapt - people would rather politic for a ban than give one of these pokemon a chance (which I don't blame them for). I just listed options, however that have utility against the metagame if used properly.
Again, just playing devils advocate here, but I did just list a more than a few things that give Doom a run for its money.
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I'm definitely ok with a test on Houndoom, but like others have said I'm worried that Sneasel and Absol will just replace Houndoom as the go-to Psychic killers despite lacking the typing that gives Doom 9/10 of its free swaps - Fire. Nonetheless, with one much faster than any psychic (Sneasel) and one much more powerful (Absol) than Doom, I'm wary about the chances for Exegg, Slowking, Grumpig and Haunter having a real niche in the tier It's worth mentioning that without Crunch neither has the raw spam power that Doom has, but access to Pursuit is often enough to poke big holes in opposing teams.
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10 hours ago, DoubleJ said:
Snorlax for S Rank: While it isn't inherently broken like it used to be (Curse = Win Button), Snorlax still boasts an incredible move repertoire, powerful stabs, and the bulk to take anything not named STAB Fighting. Body Slam paralysis is also an incredible support option considering Snorlax can just spam a strong STAB and hope it cripples a counter. It also can run Surf to eliminate its best counter, which is Rhydon, and it can keep the common Metagross switch-in from happening because of EQ. Pursuit offers the best team support due to the ability to easily remove Starmie + Alakazam, which are a couple scary late game sweepers. Even Bulky Starmie has trouble against switching out on a Pursuit and fighting through Spikes throughout a match. Curse lost some steam due to the prevalence of phasers (fucking finally) and also Life Orb / CB sweepers like Heracross, Blaziken, and Machamp, but if you play smart and remove these threats Curselax is #1.
tl;dr Not banworthy, but certainly meta defining.
I'd like to see more discussion on Lax before I place it - I don't have an opinion because I haven't been on much lately.
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I was actually for dropping hari, as it checks doom like a champ and is checked by dodrio and gardevoir to some degree. I think it's reasonable to keep it banned though, nonthing really switches in on it and it has the bulk to survive some major hits from its checks, I think it'd become pretty centralizing combined with doom, look and dodrio
- gbwead, Arimanius and Liberalisme
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comp or not
in Trash
nope, needs max speed, timid (or maybe modest if you're brave) nature. good start though.
- Champlooo, LiquidFrost and NNharmonia
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4 hours ago, BurntZebra said:
Well I wasn't able to participate in the UU tournament, but when I got home, I watched a few of the matches to see what people were running. Currently, I'd say the most banworthy pokemon is houndoom currently. It has insane offensive and supporting abilities. Barely any pokemon can even switch in on the standard life orb set. Those few pokemon are usually crippled by one of houndoom's support moves, either super fang or will o wisp or destiny bond (a bit more than crippled). Houndoom's existence basically invalidates exeggutor, jynx, gardevoir, and other psychic or ghost types. Out of the 5 or so matches I've watched, every match has had at least one houndoom in it, if not two. It seems everyone runs some fighting type alongside houndoom, usually breloom (which is another point of discussion), or hitmonlee. Houndoom is just very centralizing and only has one true counter (miltank), which makes it a potential candidate for offensive uber as well.
Breloom also seems rather powerful. Although it didn't really gain that much from the update (choice scarf is meh and life orb is still inferior to choice band imo), the choice band set seems almost too good not to use. It can pretty much do everything. It can revenge kill most of the offensive pokemon with its stab priority and base 130 attack. It can wallbreak through any defensive pokemon, 2hko'ing everything bar exeggutor which is unviable due to houndoom existing. Ghost types can't take advantage of it because houndoom exists and haunter/misdreavus aren't very safe switches into breloom unless you protect scout for superpower/mach punch/normal move. 3 hit bullet seed nearly ohkos haunter and easily 2hkos misdreavus (or a ohko with 4-5 hits). To be honest, I think there should have been a bit more discussion breloom pre update, but I guess it didn't seem broken since everyone ran vileplume+a poison type which made it seem slightly less broken. It was a rather centralizing pokemon that I feel people weren't really aware of.
The problem of slowking and scizor still exists to some extent in the new meta. The best switch in to scizor is still slowking, as exeggutor is unviable and vileplume doesn't really consistently stop scizor+forced to give up a moveslot for hp fire. Slowking obviously has a lot of utility outside of stopping scizor, including stopping tentacruel, hitmonlee, walrein/omastar to an extent, and generally being annoying to people, but I'd definitely predict that there's a positive correlation between scizor usage and slowking usage, just like how it was in the older UU meta with scizor in it still. Houndoom not existing in UU would help with the scizor situation a bit as exeggutor could be safely run to some degree (still has to watch for absol), but still makes the meta rather centralizing around scizor and max hp/def hp fire pokemon.
I didn't see any match where dodrio was super powerful, which was surprising considering people were usually only running scizor and cradily as normal resists, which aren't exactly reliable in stopping dodrio. Choice band dodrio is extremely prediction reliant, and although life orb eases the prediction a lot, it makes dodrio get worn down even faster than before. Locking into low kick to hit steelix/omastar is risky as it leaves the player open to letting something get set up, or just being locked into a move that is generally weak outside of dealing with a select few normal resists. There seems to be enough speed control to not let dodrio plow through a team completely even if the other person doesn't run a normal resist. Choice scarfers and powerful priority users like breloom/hitmonlee/zangoose/scizor really hurt dodrio.
Gardevoir was a joke in the matches I saw as it usually just got pursuit trapped by houndoom immediately. It would be interesting to see gardevoir in UU where houndoom isn't on every team. Gardevoir would be seen on both defensive and offensive team archetypes, as it can either be a cleric/check pokemon like muk or it can be a very threatening calm mind sweeper when equipped with life orb and three offensive moves, or maybe somewhere in between.
So basically, my plan for UU would be to ban houndoom, then see how breloom/scizor/gardevoir are. If either of those are problematic, then they could/would be banned (although I'm probably in the minority for thinking breloom is banworthy). And if dodrio becomes more problematic along the way, then it could be banned too.
And apparently sceptile is in the tier too! I didn't see any in the matches I've been spectating. Probably overshadowed by other drop downs and not many people had one prior to the update. The meta probably isn't too friendly to sceptile right now as houndoom shuts down special attacking sceptiles, while vileplume shuts down physically oriented ones.
I'll agree that Houndoom is the best UU pokemon right now, but I'm not sure I can get behind banning it (yet). Frankly its defensive typing isn't that good, and part of the reason it's so offensively powerful right now is that people are still running old/bad UU's that can't handle it. I think previously bad defensive pokemon like Altaria or Quagsire might prove useful against it. As for your other points:
1. Scizor/Doom is a great core but I think the biggest flaw I see with them is the weakness to Fighting and Ground types, who were largely absent today. I think the meta hasn't adapted enough to make sense of these two.
2. I didn't see any Slowkings in the 8-10 matches I poked in on today, so I'm not necessarily seeing the Slowking/Scizor issue as much as I did before the new items (and when Scizor was UU). These two open up your team to Houndoom a lot and I don't see either as "too good" as of yet.
3. Gardevoir is definitely underqualified with all these Houndooms around, but so be it, as long as the meta's healthy. I don't think it needs to be A+ viable for the tier to be healthy, as it's similar to Grumpig in terms of the roles it can play. That said, I think that even if we banned Houndoom, Gardevoir would be ok.
4. Breloom is a great pokemon but I saw it suffering from two problems. The first is that CB Mach Punch can be a major loss of momentum, the second is that its low speed and bad typing leaves it vulnerable to the tier's best RK's and sweepers like Manectric, Swellow, Sceptile, Houndoom, Dodrio, etc. It can definitely break walls, but its reliance on Choice items, low defenses and low base speed all betray it in different scenarios.
4 hours ago, NikhilR said:Houndoom + Zangoose + Sceptile are all too strong imo from what I observed.
Houndoom makes the presence of any psychic type useless and forces ppl to not run things like Exeggutor or Gardevoir (how many times have I been saying this ?!?!?!?). Also with Flash Fire, the synergy it has with Scizor is even more scary. Gard can be tested because I think there are quite a few good revenge killers like Sneasel / Absol but the Will O Wisp set will be cancer because no physical attacker can switch in on it. Sceptile is broken with sub / endeavor / giga / hp fire, due to lack of giga+fire resist types and the only pokemon I saw capable of taking advantage of it was DD Altaria, along with Doom. That high speed along with sub + orb / miracle seed means that you can't sack anything slower vs it incase it subs, which forces you to stay in no matter what and even if Sceptile "mispredicts", then endeavor wears down any wall. Zangoose is still OP with Silk Scarf. Here's where my beauty innovation comes into play. I run 252 attk evs, hit 123 speed (outspeed ada loom) and invest remaining in hp for my Goose. The normal goose set gets 2hko'd by most attacks but this spread makes most things 3hko which allows me to get to +4 and sweep with ease. Return + Low Kick breaks down any wall and Quick Attack can ko anything faster than me. At this point the only way to beat this is by having a pokemon that is faster than goose AND has access to a priority move. Most notably Scarf Scizor / Scarf Absol, Dodrio, Hitmonlee, Scarf Breloom but honestly I don't think is an ideal way of handling it. Scizor is cancer and will become too centralizing, forcing people to run hp fire exegg and slowking.
All in all UU is pretty fun right now because of how many options you have, but some shit needs to go asap.
I hear you on Houndoom, but I think Zangoose and Sceptile aren't quite there yet. Zangoose still struggles to swap in, even with some HP and both
In general, I found the lack of Swellows today kinda surprising. It's the fastest sweeper available and it absolutely rips through Doom/Loom/Sceptile/Zangoose/Manetric, and pretty much anything else that's taken some LO recoil or Toxic damage.
Overall good opinions, open to hearing more from other players for sure.
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lol Walrein OP, plsban (looking at you, Nik, also props for sweeping with SD Tenta)
Overall, was very happy with UU today. I saw lots of pokemon do really well, but none without checks or counters. Old favorites like Doom, Plume, Loom and Kanga were all present and effective, but the boosted special attacks, Dodrio, Walrein, and defensive capabilities of Scizor helped to keep things interested. It really felt like I was watching a metagame, where everything was useful and strong but nothing was as sure of a bet as it was a couple weeks ago. Dodrio in particular was a bit terrifying, given the fact that no one was running rock/steel types, and Gardevoir and Miltank didn't make as strong a showing as I expected. Interestingly, I even saw lower ranked UU's like Quagsire, Lanturn, Blastoise, Armaldo and Walrein making some solid contributions for their teams in spite of all these new mega sweepers.
Overall, good showing. Like JJ said at some point, is it healthy? I'm not sure yet. But it is fun to watch and it seems a lot more diverse than the last UU tourney I watched, and that's cool.
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40 minutes ago, Murcielago said:
so how long until snorlax is re banned?
Like JJ said, we have other fish to fry and as of our last meeting (last weekend) no one saw Snorlax fit to ban. I think it's worth breeding one or two if you want to give it a try - you can always make the final product male if you're afraid of it getting banned and having a worthless pokemon laying around.
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6 hours ago, RysPicz said:
Kinda makes me feel that we didn't even need that whole reset :(
This is exactly what I was saying from the beginning, the reset was a bad idea because all of the shit we banned is still cancerous
UU is either going to be really really different or we'll have to push for a lot of bans. I'd like to think that items like Choice Scarf will help to provide some much needed revenge-killing, though it seems like Defensive teams might be at a disadvantage with all of these high powered sweepers around.
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I agree with pretty much everything XPLOZ said (as usual, kinda). Tyranitar is the only thing that might be worth testing, but it seems like part of the reason we'd even consider it is because it checks Gengar, which isn't sound reasoning to bring it back.
In any case, we need to give the meta some time to adapt if we're serious about giving Blissey and Gengar (and Snorlax) a chance.
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Ah my bad there, thought it was similar to Eject Button. I've never used it competitively because it's fairly useless in later gens.
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12 hours ago, Kizhaz said:
I'm curios to the reasoning for not testing Dugtrio and Wobbuffet. From the sounds of it we may as well have not gotten the shed shell. I understand that trapping is still unhealthy to the meta and that it cant be expected to start seeing a bunch of Jolteon running shed shell, but having its presence alone I thought would be enough for a test. Not to mention choice scarf also helps beat Dug and specs/band over wobbu.
As for the dragons and ttar, I can understand why they aren't being tested but I feel as though if Gengar is being tested, then these guys should be too. Ttar is a hard counter to Gengar for the most part (bar willo and hp fighting), Dragonite is still a strong option as a banded user and well, mence can do it all (Skarm still counters unless mixed with orb fire blast, and I wouldn't count a shed shell as a bad item for Skarm if magnemence becomes a thing)
At the end of the day I'm happy to see something happening so yeah :)
But what would you even run Shed Shell on?
Shed shell is a pretty useless item to throw on a wall that isn't named Skarmory - the Dugtrio user just needs to be a little bit more patient. Shed Shell Snorlax is one of those things that makes almost no sense, given its function, since Leftovers are pretty much the key to any useful Lax set (except CB). By comparison, Skarmory is actually a great candidate for Shed Shell because of how important Spikes are to its team (not to mention that Roost gives it better survivability in the later gens). Shed Shell on sweepers is straight up laughable - it's such an obvious waste of potential for pretty much anything that's weak to Dugtrio revenge killing.
Shed Shell will also remain fairly useless as long as Trick is around, as Special Walls are the most likely things to get trickSpec'd and rendered irrelevant.
The really cancerous part of Dugtrio wasn't only that it took out special walls, it also threatened or revenged a ton of the game's top sweepers. Heracross, Metagross, Ursaring, and loads of other physical wallbreakers could be finished off by even a non-banded set, letting Dugtrio support defensive teams even better than it can support offensive ones.
In short: Shed Shell is pretty irrelevant because it's a subpar choice for an item on pretty much anything you give it to and because it doesn't really stop Dugtrio from performing other duties against the standard meta.
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[spoiler]WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY WHY DO YOU DO THESE THINGS TO ME[/spoiler]
No, Baton Pass, Wobbuffet, and Dugtrio are most definitely not pokemon that have to stay banned, and just because they were banned before for being uncompetitive doesn't mean they're still banworthy. This is an incredibly important distinction. I honestly don't at all think Wobbuffet is still banworthy, Dugtrio is in the same vein, and honestly you could bring back Baton Pass without too much trouble either. Baton Pass teams weren't even really a problem back when Baton Pass was banned, it was mostly strong passers like Gligar in UU/NU which were huge problems, along with really dumb stuff like Jolteon passing to Dugtrio in OU.
With that being said, I don't necessarily advocate unbanning Wobbuffet/Baton Pass. Yes, they're not necessarily still banworthy like they were at the time they were banned, but this has been true for quite a while; we could have tested them ages ago, and we arguably should have to some extent. However, the real reason they're still banned and not even being tested isn't out of some unspoken rule, or some ancient arcane knowledge as to how incredibly uncompetitive they are, the real reason they're still banned is because nobody fucking wants them back. Sure, we could bring down Wobbuffet, but that would require time, energy, and effort over the course of over a month to maybe possibly bring down a pokemon nobody wants back anyway. Even if after all that people agree that he's not banworthy, if we're being perfectly honest here, Wobbuffet will probably just make OU worse, or hardly affect it at all. That's why him and BP are still banned; Not because they're necessarily still banworthy, but because there's a whole process required to bring them down, when nobody wants them back and bringing them down won't make the game better anyway.
Although, this mostly applies to Wobbuffet. Bringing back Baton Pass is honestly pretty legitimate, things have changed a lot since it was banned. I don't even understand why you think Baton Pass would be remotely centralizing whatsoever, it wasn't even centralizing when it was banned 2 years ago, except for maybe in UU (and NU, but that was when NU was CM Baton Pass, all banning BP did was turn it into straight up first-to-crit CM wars), to say that it'd be centralizing if it was unbanned now is a massive stretch.
As for everything else, I'd favor a full reset. I honestly doubt anyone believes that a full reset will result in a metagame with no banned pokemon and there aren't pokemon who will be quickbanned faster than you can say "m-muh stall", but to be entirely honest, I think it'd be better to just reset, quickban the really obvious bullshit, and then go on from there than it is to argue about what should/shouldn't be brought down for 2 weeks and then ultimately hardly change anything, especially since there shouldn't be much more stuff now that we have Specs/Scarf/Orb all at once now.
[spoiler]also, @ the part about throwing back several pokemon at once going against "ze rulez", cmon m8 you know it doesn't matter. you guys can (and should) just, yknow, change the rules. they're not legally binding m8, and policies on tiering should be changing/evolving.[/spoiler]
Also what is this trick discussion? These items have been out like a week, tiers are still unstable, and you people are already requesting a discussion to ban a move? lmao chill tf out guys banning a move isn't something you just do after a leisurely stroll after work in your spare time or something, it's the kind of thing you try and avoid if at all possible, and it's definitely not something you start considering so quickly.
I think we're mostly saying the same thing here, it's just that I think Gengar and Tyranitar ARE the obviously broken shit.
I could entertain the "bring back uncompetitive shit" argument but I think you're being a bit loco here- it takes people a shit load of effort to get their BP pokes and Snorlaxes etc. all trained up and even longer to test ban or even get a TC consensus. Our last meta reset took more than 6 months to even out. If that's really what everyone wants, I'll go for it but in the past the ban/unban cycle has pissed a lot of people off and a lot of people's interest in playing the game competively. I'd like to avoid the obvious insanity of LO dragonite running amok, personally.
Also I don't see any downsides to increments, which is why I suggested it. it'll likely take less time and minimize the amount of time players spend breeding shit that we then ban. -
Nah, now is the time.
Life Orb sends Gengar/Tyranitar over the edge, which is part of why I've been arguing against bringing them back. Full disclosure: some of us knew that these items would be implemented, so that's part of why this discussion has been a little stalled. But like I said, now's the time. Anyway - Life Orb & Tyranitar:
0 SpA Life Orb Tyranitar Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 146-177 (71.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 133-159 (85.8 - 102.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO0 SpA Life Orb Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 138-164 (80.2 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryLife Orb clearly give Tyranitar a new edge: not only is it an amazing setup sweeper, Scarf and CB abuser, it's now also a core breaker that can tear through pretty much anything that attempts to beat the standard sets. Note that Crunch and RS all do a significant amount of damage to these would be checks, while also ripping through flimsier walls like Weezing or Slowbro.Without Tyranitar around, Gengar suddenly becomes an absolute monster as well, the last thing we need is another high powered set to complement the already terrifying abilities of Sub/Disable/Wisp, Subpunch and 3 Attacks+whatever sets. Snorlax *might* be able to handle it, but it seems like Snorlax is pretty much the only thing in OU (except Chansey) that can handle the full force of LO Sludge Bomb and Shadowball at the same time, not to mention the fact that Sub Punch is amazing at dismantling defenses.These two are just so strong that testing them would be futile - we're pretty much signing up for an OU where everyone runs Heracross/Snorlax/Gengar/Tyranitar.Instead, I suggest we work up from the ground floor: we first unban Snorlax, maybe talk about Trick, and then move on to working in Tyranitar or Gengar IF everything else is going smoothly. To me, throwing 3-5 new pokemon back into the OU mix just seems like a disaster (not to mention it goes against the unban strategy laid out in The Rules). -
On a serious note, the choice items actually do limit baton pass to some extent. First, there are more trick users which kind of ruin the baton pass chain if it isn't predicted correctly. Second, it's a lot harder to start a baton pass chain when you can get outsped even after you agility and general damage output from band/specs users can be often too great to actually set up successfully. Something like baton pass jolteon is a lot more risky when it can get outsped by metagross or medicham or flygon, and even if a jolteon does baton pass out from a chansey or something, it's not really that big of a deal as diglett is pretty bad and trapinch can only trap chansey and doesn't need baton pass jolteon to help.
You can't really prove that it is uncompetitive without a test, just like I can't really prove snorlax is going to be centralizing/unhealthy. Baton pass was and is a different kind of uncompetitive than wobb's shadow tag, and it's not really clear that it is uncompetitive in a supposedly different meta.
With that being said, I don't really think baton pass will actually improve the meta, so I don't really think it should be tested, but the same goes for snorlax.
Maybe scarf Cross will make things like Espeon think twice, but other than that, the whole point of Baton Pass is still the same and it's still pretty broken. I guess you could say trick shuts BP down, but again that gets into the gray area because you in particular have expressed concerns about the competitiveness of Trick.
The thing about moves like BP (same goes for Volt Switch, U-Turn, etc.) and pokemon like Dugtrio/Wobbufett is that they're always going to be inherently uncompetitive but that doesn't necessarily make them banworthy. Spikes, Rocks, Priority and Life Orb present pretty big barriers for the BP abuser in Gen IV onwards (also Shaymin - remember that time I Seed Flared you to death in PSL? Lions OP). Honestly, U turn teams were also pretty scary in that meta too, since scarf Flygon and Scizor can almost guarantee chip damage on everything in the tier. But in 6th gen that's not so much the case.. I digress.
All I'm saying is that these moves are uncompetitive on a spectrum relative to the tools we have to check them. I don't think we currently have the tools to check them, outside of rampant Trick and maybe Skarmory, so I don't think it's worth our time to test, similar to how it's not worth our time to test Gengar or Tyranitar because they both just got amazing buffs with these new items. Anyway, Baton Pass adds nothing worth keeping to the game, unless we were to get some 4th Pokes I don't see a good reason to even test it simply because of how centralizing it'd be.
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Yes, some people have asked for a discussion of Trick, though I think we will want to give the meta some time to adapt before we haul off and ban specific moves. It seems
Like the first order of business will be deciding what to move down from Ubers, if anything, and see if that changes the equation.
I'm all for people voicing their opinions on trick - I for one find it a little questionable since OU lacks the 4th gen staples for shitting on Trick Starmie (Tyranitar, Scizor, Spirtomb).
Also prior post was meant broadly mostly talking about how Muk is bad and stall is ok - only the shit talk point was meant for pbc really.
Carry on. -
Some thoughts- we want stall to be viable. If you're couching your arguments in "fuckin wall fgts!!!!" reasoning (pbc, for instance), you're basically arguing against yourself because healthy metas allow for stall to have a chance alongside offense and balance.
What we don't want is for stall to be universal or unchecked, same as how we don't just want everyone running pure offense.
Next, suggestions that I use Muk to counter starmie and trick Zam are just plain dumb. Similar to the "just use Hitmontop!" case for OU Tyranitar but neglecting to mention that Specs Psychic blows Muk out of the water. Doom, on the other hand, is a beast and could find an OU niche, I think.
Also, @pbc, if you want a CA thread you have to make it nice yourself, which means no shit talking people or their teams. -
thats the point, we can't catch em all. All I can do is win psl doe, will I be the first to win twice in a row as a manager and also to win 3 times out of 5 psl? Lets do dis guys!
yo i'm gonna be cheaper this season, hype
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[PSL V] PokeMMO Super League Season 5 - Week 1
in Competition Archive
Posted · Edited by Robofiend
nvm