[Implemented] Crit Mechanics gen VI

[JWingWangWong]

I mean the game is in alpha why not try it out? That way you don't assume the pros and cons and get results on a massive scale to make a proper conclusion.

[Kababs]

I mean the game is in alpha why not try it out? That way you don't assume the pros and cons and get results on a massive scale to make a proper conclusion.

I see the crits being ok as it is but a test of it is an idea.

[Zakaveli]

I mean the game is in alpha why not try it out? That way you don't assume the pros and cons and get results on a massive scale to make a proper conclusion.

 

I see the crits being ok as it is but a test of it is an idea.

 

 

because there's a possibility itll turn out to be the biggest mistake the devs ever made for pvp and we'll be pissed off and ragequitting for another 3-6 months cuz no update

 

so why not fucking do it right the first time, they already ruined breeding let's not ruin pvp shall we

[Kababs]

because there's a possibility itll turn out to be the biggest mistake the devs ever made for pvp and we'll be pissed off and ragequitting for another 3-6 months cuz no update

 

so why not fucking do it right the first time, they already ruined breeding let's not ruin pvp shall we

If they do get results, see the difference between the current mechanic and new mechanic and then change or keep the mechanics.

 

Btw off topic but breeding was never bad, the days of Bikemmo was just insanely boring and the new system makes you think about what you're breeding.

[Dannnno]

because there's a possibility itll turn out to be the biggest mistake the devs ever made for pvp and we'll be pissed off and ragequitting for another 3-6 months cuz no update

 

so why not fucking do it right the first time, they already ruined breeding let's not ruin pvp shall we

 

I honestly don't think it'll turn out to be horrible, and I don't think changing crits is going to piss people off nearly as much as other things.

 

Game Corner/Breeding/Matchmaking/Money/etc

[Kababs]

I honestly don't think it'll turn out to be horrible, and I don't think changing crits is going to piss people off nearly as much as other things.

 

Game Corner/Breeding/Matchmaking/Money/etc

I agree but the fact is that people will bitch because they are too shit to win without the crits.

[Zakaveli]

If they do get results, see the difference between the current mechanic and new mechanic and then change or keep the mechanics.

 

Btw off topic but breeding was never bad, the days of Bikemmo was just insanely boring and the new system makes you think about what you're breeding.

 

the iv inheritance mechanic changed is what ruined breeding, bikemmo totally sucked

 

 

I honestly don't think it'll turn out to be horrible, and I don't think changing crits is going to piss people off nearly as much as other things.

 

Game Corner/Breeding/Matchmaking/Money/etc

 

you might not think it'll turn out to be horrible, but there's still an entire discussion going on about it therefore there might be something within this change of mechanic that could potentially ruin pvp

 

I agree but the fact is that people will bitch because they are too shit to win without the crits.

 

it's not that they're too shitty to win without crits; it's because we rather deal with things like calm mind/amnesia slowbro, curselax the fair way, so of course before they apply this change of mechanic, it has to be tested. however, AFAIK the devs are most likely not financially able to run a test server either and because they take months to release an update, that is why im bitching about doing it right the first time

[Senile]

the iv inheritance mechanic changed is what ruined breeding, bikemmo totally sucked

 

 

 

you might not think it'll turn out to be horrible, but there's still an entire discussion going on about it therefore there might be something within this change of mechanic that could potentially ruin pvp

 

 

it's not that they're too shitty to win without crits; it's because we rather deal with things like calm mind/amnesia slowbro, curselax the fair way, so of course before they apply this change of mechanic, it has to be tested. however, AFAIK the devs are most likely not financially able to run a test server either and because they take months to release an update, that is why im bitching about doing it right the first time

ITT: Ignorance and fundamental misunderstanding.

Nerfing criticals won't buff curselax or CM Slowbro, or any other defensive booster. Nerfing critical damage allows you to get 50%/100% crit rate, meaning there is a much more reliable method available for taking care of these things. 6th gen crit mechanics actually nerf them. Besides that, crits are the worst way to deal with these boosters, phazing/hazing is much better. If you're relying on crits, that's your problem. This is ignoring the fact that crits only beat these things because they ignore the defensive boosts, not typically due to the extra damage, of course. 2x damage vs 1.5x is likely not going to make much of a difference when it comes down to beating a pokemon boosting their defenses.

Also, they do have a test server, and this isn't something particularly hard to add/change.

If you think this will ruin PVP, you have no idea what you're talking about. This makes PVP far less luck based, and provides an alternative method for dealing with the very good setup pokemon.

Oh, and by the way, there is no "Discussion" here. There's you.

[Zakaveli]

ITT: Ignorance and fundamental misunderstanding.

Nerfing criticals won't buff curselax or CM Slowbro, or any other defensive booster. Nerfing critical damage allows you to get 50%/100% crit rate, meaning there is a much more reliable method available for taking care of these things. 6th gen crit mechanics actually nerf them. Besides that, crits are the worst way to deal with these boosters, phazing/hazing is much better. If you're relying on crits, that's your problem. This is ignoring the fact that crits only beat these things because they ignore the defensive boosts, not typically due to the extra damage, of course. 2x damage vs 1.5x is likely not going to make much of a difference when it comes down to beating a pokemon boosting their defenses.

Also, they do have a test server, and this isn't something particularly hard to add/change.

If you think this will ruin PVP, you have no idea what you're talking about. This makes PVP far less luck based, and provides an alternative method for dealing with the very good setup pokemon.

Oh, and by the way, there is no "Discussion" here. There's you.

 

oh please calling me ignorant and saying there's no discussion here when there's 2 pages almost an entire page of you typing your entire heart out on how you feel on a specific change of mechanic when you dont even play this fucking game

 

you also need to read shit right, cm bro and curselax were just fucking examples, dont be so butthurt, and about the test server i was talking about a more public one

 

Oh, and by the way, I fucking burned my scrambled eggs while typing this shit because you always have to write these fucking essays, God damnit

[Senile]

oh please calling me ignorant and saying there's no discussion here when there's 2 pages of you typing your entire heart out on how you feel on a specific change of mechanic when you dont even play this fucking game

 

you also need to read shit right, cm bro and curselax were just fucking examples, dont be so butthurt, and about the test server i was talking about a more public one

 

Oh, and by the way, I fucking burned my scrambled eggs while typing this shit because you always have to write these fucking essays, God damnit

>Saying they were just examples
>My argument that they're nerfed applies to any defensive setup abuser

Reading comprehension m8.

[Emlee]

Why are people still complaining about walls. Why do people still think CB is a good idea right now. I'm an idiot when it comes to competitive play but I have heard enough Senile/Barrage rants to know that people still thinking this is hilarious.

[Kababs]

Why are people still complaining about walls. Why do people still think CB is a good idea right now. I'm an idiot when it comes to competitive play but I have heard enough Senile/Barrage rants to know that people still thinking this was is hilarious.

The problem with walls is that they are all overused majorly and make battles boring with the same approach to glitches that can be exploited the 'it's in the game' approach.

And if CB and these mechanics were added at the same time I think it should work well.

[Statius]

Choice band isn't a new thing at all for 3rd gen either.

Compared to the more new gens mechanics being added into this.

[Senile]

Why are people still complaining about walls. Why do people still think CB is a good idea right now. I'm an idiot when it comes to competitive play but I have heard enough Senile/Barrage rants to know that people still thinking this is hilarious.

[spoiler]I've actually changed my mind regarding Choice Band, but none of this CB talk is related to the thread anyway. (Although, CB would require Salamence be banned)[/spoiler]

[ThinkNice]

[spoiler]I've actually changed my mind regarding Choice Band, but none of this CB talk is related to the thread anyway. (Although, CB would require Salamence be banned)[/spoiler]

and ttar

[Senile]

and ttar

Well, to be fair, CB would greatly increase the usage of fighting types (cough Machamp), and Tyranitar's most deadly set was never his CB set anyway. Tyranitar would probably need testing, as his lower speed means he's not "herp derp 100% instabroke" like mence. Besides that, Salamence isn't as bothered by the meta shift from Choice Band, due to the fact his great ability, Intimidate, makes him essentially negate the CB, while also sporting an immunity to EQ and a resistance to Fighting moves.

[Tranzmaster]

I'm not completely against the idea of having the complete Gen VI mechanic, and the arguments provided are reasonable, but I'd still like to point out a few things added to the things I stated before in this thread, which still apply.

 

- The crit rate buff does not "make up" the crit damage nerf. It's still obvious that in general, offensive power will be nerfed. Regardless how you look at it. You take away something across the board, and you give something that only benefits a few Pokemon and builds (and it requires setup to really benefit from it).

 

I'm not saying it should make up for it, I'm just saying that the argument "offensive power will not be nerfed", or "defensive power will be weakened because crit rate buff", is invalid.

 

- From another perspective looking, where do we draw the line in making the metagame more fair? Are we doing it because Gen VI does it? Probably, so why should we? Okay, this isn't 100% Gen III either, but there are much more obvious differences with Gen VI. So why did GameFreak do it for Gen VI and not for earlier gens? Maybe they didn't think it was a problem in earlier gens and they deemed it was now? I know, it's a lot of brainstorming and hypothesis, but still. There is more to it then just "Let's make the metagame more fair".

 

- If this gets implemented, then consider the following. People are already thinking of builds to stack on crit rate. Machamp Focus Energy Cross Chop. This is really paradoxical. You want a fairer metagame (likely involving less game changing crits), but you are already thinking metagame-wise in niches that involve crit rate. How is this not RNG based? This is just creating another pool of RNG to work in.

 

 

Just some thoughts to think of.

 

I would also like to note that Darkshade clearly bumped the thread with the intention to bring this idea forward. Please consider the pros and cons carefully. 

[Alphatron]

 SB Rule 8. Please do not leave posts that state your agreement/disagreement with the Original Post without providing an explanation, or critique, these posts will be hidden. You can simply like a post to state your agreement or post as a reason why you do not. i.e. +1, -1, yes, no, are not acceptable posts.

^ Emlee Clause, Hue

 

But on topic:

 

 Im a novice at anything past gen 3 because Ive never played anything competitively past that so Im learning as Im reading along so please correct me if Im wrong. Scaling down crit damage isnt  a terrible Idea, but its effect on the OU tier in our meta could be bad could it not? A lot of the time Crits are a game changer for someone when youre being haxed and walled to death by someone running 5 or 6 walls on their team. If youre wanting to make winning a duel more skill based, why take this away? It doesnt take any talent or skill to wall someone. So doesnt scaling down crits only promote the use of more walls and less strategy? Again, I may be missing the point, and in a duel with a respectable opponent crits can be a little op so I can see why you'd want them scaled down a little, but get into an official where everyone is running a ton of walls I feel like this only hurts the OU tier.  

[Senile]

I'm not completely against the idea of having the complete Gen VI mechanic, and the arguments provided are reasonable, but I'd still like to point out a few things added to the things I stated before in this thread, which still apply.

 

- The crit rate buff does not "make up" the crit damage nerf. It's still obvious that in general, offensive power will be nerfed. Regardless how you look at it. You take away something across the board, and you give something that only benefits a few Pokemon and builds (and it requires setup to really benefit from it).

 

I'm not saying it should make up for it, I'm just saying that the argument "offensive power will not be nerfed", or "defensive power will be weakened because crit rate buff", is invalid.

 

- From another perspective looking, where do we draw the line in making the metagame more fair? Are we doing it because Gen VI does it? Probably, so why should we? Okay, this isn't 100% Gen III either, but there are much more obvious differences with Gen VI. So why did GameFreak do it for Gen VI and not for earlier gens? Maybe they didn't think it was a problem in earlier gens and they deemed it was now? I know, it's a lot of brainstorming and hypothesis, but still. There is more to it then just "Let's make the metagame more fair".

 

- If this gets implemented, then consider the following. People are already thinking of builds to stack on crit rate. Machamp Focus Energy Cross Chop. This is really paradoxical. You want a fairer metagame (likely involving less game changing crits), but you are already thinking metagame-wise in niches that involve crit rate. How is this not RNG based? This is just creating another pool of RNG to work in.

 

 

Just some thoughts to think of.

 

I would also like to note that Darkshade clearly bumped the thread with the intention to bring this idea forward. Please consider the pros and cons carefully. 

- Offensive power will be nerfed in situations that people would have complained about anyway. If someone loses because of a crit, they'll be upset. Nerfing crits won't suddenly make people complain their crits "aren't doing enough damage", as most people aren't exactly happy when they lose due to a crit to begin with.

- Gamefreak probably didn't nerf it before gen 6 because crits already were nerfed. In Gen 2, they were nerfed massively, as crits no longer relied on speed and high crit rate moves no longer had 100% crit chance. After such a massive nerf, it's not surprising they didn't decide to nerf it again until a much later date.

That said, that doesn't mean that nerfing them again would be a bad decision for PokeMMO, nor does it mean it was a bad decision for 6th gen; It's simply a reason as to why they never felt the need to adjust beforehand.

- First of all, "Focus Energy Cross Chop Machamp" has 100% crit rate, so there's no paradox there.

Besides that, these things come with an opportunity cost, it's not like they're free crits. This is the same reason hax items aren't banned on places like Showdown, Quick Claw requires you to give up an item to use. Likewise, things like Scope Lens require an item slot to use, as well as a moveslot, either Focus Energy or high critical hit rate moves, both having severe drawbacks. If you have Focus Energy, you're typically running that over another, potentially better setup move. Not only that, but Focus Energy does require a turn of setup, and unlike other setup moves (I.E. Bulk Up), it can't be stacked for more setup, as well as being outclassed as a damage upgrade on anything but pokemon with boosted defenses.

Another example, "Scope Lens Cross Chop Machamp"; Yes, it has 50% crit rate, but only on Cross Chop. It's other moves barely get any benefit from the item, and he's using it in lieu of another item.

Also, this is contradicting your earlier point; You said the crit rate change only benefits a few pokemon/builds, and yet now you're stating this just creates another pool of RNG. If you yourself said this affects a small amount of pokemon, then how can you argue this "small pool" of hax could ever not compensate for nerfing hax across the board?

Overall, I don't think your points are very strong, and the benefits far outweigh any possible negatives.

 

^ Emlee Clause, Hue

 

But on topic:

 

 Im a novice at anything past gen 3 because Ive never played anything competitively past that so Im learning as Im reading along so please correct me if Im wrong. Scaling down crit damage isnt  a terrible Idea, but its effect on the OU tier in our meta could be bad could it not? A lot of the time Crits are a game changer for someone when youre being haxed and walled to death by someone running 5 or 6 walls on their team. If youre wanting to make winning a duel more skill based, why take this away? It doesnt take any talent or skill to wall someone. So doesnt scaling down crits only promote the use of more walls and less strategy? Again, I may be missing the point, and in a duel with a respectable opponent crits can be a little op so I can see why you'd want them scaled down a little, but get into an official where everyone is running a ton of walls I feel like this only hurts the OU tier.  

This has been explained time and time again; in exchange for the nerf to crit damage, a far more reliable way of dealing with the setup pokemon that dominate OU is added. (Curselax, anyone?); Also, saying "It doesnt take any talent or skill to wall someone" is just an incorrect statement, based on personal preference. It's like saying it doesn't take any talent or skill to use the best characters in a fighting game, despite all the high level players using said characters due to how good they are.

I can't even wrap my head around the idea that nerfing criticals would promote less strategy, or make the game less skill based. I just don't understand that train of thought.

[Robofiend]

Agreeing with Senile,

 

Walling takes a lot of careful team-building and prediction - if you're using a stall team you're playing an entirely defensive game, meaning if you mess up and let one wall die, your whole team can go because it lost a necessary defensive pillar. A stall team in the hands of a player who cannot use it effectively is just a bunch of sitting ducks. With choice band implemented in particular, players with good prediction skills will have a better chance to defend against stall. Players without prediction skill will continue to complain on the forums about the people who run "unbeatable" stall teams.

 

saying "It doesnt take any talent or skill to wall someone" is just an incorrect statement, based on personal preference. It's like saying it doesn't take any talent or skill to use the best characters in a fighting game, despite all the high level players using said characters due to how good they are..

 

As far as criticals go: you should not be relying on them to beat ANY opposing pokemon: even the most "dominant" OU pokemon available all have defensive holes that allow other pokemon to kill them with a single move. Salamence cannot contend with slowbro and vaporeon 1 on 1 at full health, Snorlax and Blissey have little choice but to run from heracross or ursaring (esp. with guts boost) and Skarmory must watch out for Magneton, who singlehandedly eliminates it.

 

I personally think that nerfing crit damage is a loss for sweepers and a gain for walls: but it is a loss for the better. There is no reason an Alakazam or Starmie should be able to crit kill a Snorlax that switches in to counter them - something that I've both done myself and have had done to me. Similarly a Marowak crit rockslide can make short work of Skarmory, who is an otherwise solid counter to it. I personally find crits most frustrating when they happen to kill my otherwise rock-solid counter to an opponents offense. 

 

As far as crit based strategies: they are gimmicky on the whole - you would be silly to seriously run something like focus energy machamp. Although you guarantee a crit next turn, it will amount to nothing if your opponent brings in alakazam or psychic gengar to counter you. 

 

Like Senile, I see a crit damage nerf as nothing but good for the metagame, it eliminates some of the painful and needless "hax" factor that makes people not want to play the game and this is a good thing.

[jayfeatskydd]

If the debate it between changing the amount of damage a crit will do I say: Leave it the way it is. The Metagame was build to support the 2x, I see no rationale it just buffing it because it was done it a later gen.

[Darkshade]

If the debate it between changing the amount of damage a crit will do I say: Leave it the way it is. The Metagame was build to support the 2x, I see no rationale it just buffing it because it was done it a later gen.

 

I'd suggest reading the thread to see the arguments for such a change, the meta game was no way designed with critical hits in mind, they are purely a luck based event, generation VI crits allow critical hits to be utilized and actually become a part of the meta game.

[Kababs]

I'd suggest reading the thread to see the arguments for such a change, the meta game was no way designed with critical hits in mind, they are purely a luck based event, generation VI crits allow critical hits to be utilized and actually become a part of the meta game.

But the crits being in the meta game with Gen IV, V and VI Pokémon while PokeMMO doesn't have some Gen II and III Pokémon.

[Senile]

But the crits being in the meta game with Gen IV, V and VI Pokémon while PokeMMO doesn't have some Gen II and III Pokémon.

And what does that change?

No, seriously. Ask any serious competitive battler, and they can tell you competitive pokemon would be better without criticals. I've said it once, I'll say it again; Criticals are a relic from 1st gen that weren't removed. For evidence of that, see how massively they were nerfed in 2nd gen, and then nerfed once again in 6th.

6th gen crits are the best resolution, because removing them entirely wouldn't be loyal to the games, while 6 gen mechanics make them more reliable while also reducing the game changing affects they could possibly have.

The fact that this is 3rd gen doesn't change any of this. Nor does it counter the arguments that have been made that it's positive for the meta.

[Senile]

These crit mechanics are great for the metagame. They help reduce hax, make crits a viable and usable strategy, and are odorless.

[spoiler]Look at all the discussion this post provides, wow, much content, so not delete[/spoiler]