The Physical/Special Split

[Excelimpulse]

Lol'd again at the bolded statement. Saying Gengar can be trapped when it has levitate pretty much says everything about your knowledge.

Um magneton can set up on a few things. Dugtrio can set up on anything which isn't flying/doesn't levitate which is a lot.

Your point was it got banned for only taking out 2 spdef walls when it clearly did more than that. Snorlax can WW when tropius comes but dugtrio is still capable of biting you back in the ass which is why it will stay banned.

GG

They still do the same thing how can you argue that. They still trap and set up

[IndigoGlacier]

I never said do what I say either. It's sad you guys putting words in my mouth. It's sad you think magneton is competitive and doesn't effect the metagame. Look around talk to people outside your friends a lot of people disagree.

I Said magnetron because I think it stands in the way of having a balance metagame.

If you ththinkm wrong whatever. Idc anymore push everyone good away.

Magneton takes out some walls. That's it. Skarm and forretrus most likely. Other than that, it wont do much because that's mostly its only role. You're basically saying it should be banned because it traps certain types of pokemon, and comparing it to a pokemon that traps almost any pokemon. Go back to your salamence argument. Magneton isn't going to get banned.

[NikhilR]

They still do the same thing how can you argue that. They still trap and set up

 

How is trapping 2 pokemon = trapping a shitload of pokemon?

 

How is magneton able to set up on steel types? Please enlighten me.

[Excelimpulse]

Magneton takes out some walls. That's it. Skarm and forretrus most likely. Other than that, it wont do much because that's mostly its only role. You're basically saying it should be banned because it traps certain types of pokemon, and comparing it to a pokemon that traps almost any pokemon. Go back to your salamence argument. Magneton isn't going to get banned.

You do realize my mence argument comes from magneton. And great players also suggested how uncompetitive magnetin is. I'm still amazed how you think magneton can be competitive. Some random can use that and sweep with anything in the new meta.

[Excelimpulse]

How is trapping 2 pokemon = trapping a shitload of pokemon?

How is magneton able to set up on steel types? Please enlighten me.

How is trapping competitive? In general.

[BenGorgon]

How is trapping 2 pokemon = trapping a shitload of pokemon?

 

How is magneton able to set up on steel types? Please enlighten me.

 

As a matter of fact, as evidenced by the last Swiss game I played against Zebra on the PTS, Magneton is *not* even entirely safe against Forretress...

I could feel that Magnet somewhere, and caught it on the switch-in with an EQ and that was the end of Magneton... 

Edit: He still curb stomped me, but Magneton had around .0008% effect on that match

 

But idk why people are still even indulging this guy, it is quite oblivious, and has been pointed out a few times, that he has no idea what he is talking about. 

Edited January 5, 2015 by BenGorgon

[IndigoGlacier]

 I'm still amazed how you think magneton can be competitive. Some random can use that and sweep with anything in the new meta.

Well...maybe if they all had a full party of magikarps, but only in that case.

[NikhilR]

How is trapping competitive? In general.

 

It's not, but what's uncompetitive isn't ban worthy as stated before. Running 2-3 pokemon to deal with one pokemon is unhealthy. 

Edited January 5, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

How is trapping competitive? In general.

If you're just trapping two walls and that's usually the only thing you can and supposed to do, and with Hoenn Swampert having new alternatives of physical walls, trapping in this case isn't problematic.

If you're fast and trap everything that's touching the Ground including the incredibly limited supply of reliable Special walls in the game and isn't usually dead weight for a team since it has a much higher chance of trapping something than Magneton, that's too much.

"But it's still trapping right!"

[Excelimpulse]

As a matter of fact, as evidenced by the last Swiss game I played against Zebra on the PTS, Magneton is *not* even entirely safe against Forretress...
I could feel that Magnet somewhere, and caught it on the switch-in with an EQ and that was the end of Magneton...

But idk why people are still even indulging this guy, it is quite oblivious, and has been pointed out a few times, that he has no idea what he is talking about.

Cause you could feel that eq lol oh god. Keep bashing me when you can't even answer how trapping in general is competitive.

If it isn't it should be out period.

If you're just trapping two walls and that's usually the only thing you can and supposed to do, and with Hoenn Swampert having new alternatives of physical walls, trapping in this case isn't problematic.

If you're fast and trap everything that's touching the Ground including the incredibly limited supply of reliable Special walls in the game and isn't usually dead weight for a team since it has a much higher chance of trapping something than Magneton, that's too much.

"But it's still trapping right!"

How many defensive walls do we have? That are reliable. -_-

Trapping is trapping magnetin isn't competitive just like trio.

It's not, but what's uncompetitive isn't ban worthy as stated before. Running 2-3 pokemon to deal with one pokemon is unhealthy.

We do it now ! And have been for the last 2 years. There are a lot of cores that can stop mence without magnetron lurking around.

You run a core that can stop the most threats not the stupid ones

If it's not competitive it should go. Why keep something that isn't? Edited January 5, 2015 by Darkshade
Merged a triple post together.

[BenGorgon]

If you're just trapping two walls and that's usually the only thing you can and supposed to do, and with Hoenn Swampert having new alternatives of physical walls, trapping in this case isn't problematic.

If you're fast and trap everything that's touching the Ground including the incredibly limited supply of reliable Special walls in the game and isn't usually dead weight for a team since it has a much higher chance of trapping something than Magneton, that's too much.

"But it's still trapping right!"

 

Q4T

 

Trapping is not inherently ban worthy. Trapping and subsequently killing a large portion of the metagame is. Consider for a moment, why Mega Gengar was banned, but Gothitelle was not, in the most recent generation of games. The former can trap and kill a large portion of the meta. Gothitelle, while fairly powerful and capable of killing *some* of the walls available, is still healthy, and all things considered, isn't on the higher end of the usage ratio. Both have the same ability (Shadow Tag), but one centralizes the meta, while the other does not. 

[Excelimpulse]

Q4T

Trapping is not inherently ban worthy. Trapping and subsequently killing a large portion of the metagame is. Consider for a moment, why Mega Gengar was banned, but Gothitelle was not, in the most recent generation of games. The former can trap and kill a large portion of the meta. Gothitelle, while fairly powerful and capable of killing *some* of the walls available, is still healthy, and all things considered, isn't on the higher end of the usage ratio. Both have the same ability (Shadow Tag), but one centralizes the meta, while the other does not.

This is our metagame not other generations. If I couldn't use that argument 5 months ago why should you now?

[ThinkNice]

Trapping is trapping 

No.

 

Let's ban a Shadow Tag Magikarp guys, trapping is trapping. Oh God I am Pursuit trapped, this is uncompetitive ban Pursuit cauz trapping is trapping.

[BenGorgon]

This is our metagame not other generations. If I couldn't use that argument 5 months ago why should you now?

 

The argument is based of off centralization, the Pokemon involved are simply to aid in the metaphor. The point still stands, you are simply not seeing the difference between trapping anything it chooses too, and a very select few Pokemon, and without that ability, is about as useless as a fridge magnet. 

 

Edit: Please, also learn to edit posts when speaking to multiple people, it is part of the forum rules. 

Edited January 5, 2015 by BenGorgon

[NikhilR]

We do it now ! And have been for the last 2 years. There are a lot of cores that can stop mence without magnetron lurking around.

You run a core that can stop the most threats not the stupid ones

If it's not competitive it should go. Why keep something that isn't?

 

I sure as hell don't run 2-3 pokemon to deal with one pokemon. I run vaporeon to take care of most choicebanders like dragonite, mence or aerodactyl, lanturn to take care of starmie or other vaporeons, rhydon to take care of snorlax. These pokemon can also serve many more purposes as they can beat other offensive types as well. I am not running 3 pokemon to stop lax, dragonite and starmie. Dugtrio killed lax and bliss which forced people to run dusclops to answer to starmie or run blissey+lax in the same team. That's one of the main reasons why dugtrio was banned.

 

You're missing the point. We don't want to run 2-3 pokemon to deal with one pokemon, No one should build a defensive to deal with one pokemon. That is not a healthy meta and itself says the strength of the pokemon. 

 

The reason mag isn't banned is because it doesn't fit the definition of being banworthy. If you want to read what is worthy of being banned then read the discussion threads of things that have been banned.

Edited January 5, 2015 by NikhilR

[RyoOhsora]

so... can we go back to the topic pls? if you want to discuss magneton pls use another thread for it xP

so back to the topic...

do we need the split (now) ?

how does the split affect the meta?
which pokemon benefit from it?
which pokemon doesn't benefit from it?
should we first get fully acces to gen 3 because we hadn't a chance yet to test its full potential? ( we were missing tons of gen 3 pokemon )

 

[spoiler] some questions as a try to get back on topic [/spoiler]

Edited January 5, 2015 by RyoOhsora

[DoubleJ]

I'm so confused by all of this conversation. So many bad points mixed with common knowledge. Let's move on and just play the game. We have our own beliefs and strats so let's play it out and see who prevails in the end.

[IndigoGlacier]

so... can we go back to the topic pls? if you want to discuss magneton pls use another thread for it xP

so back to the topic...

do we need the split (now) ?

how does the split affect the meta?
which pokemon benefit from it?
which pokemon doesn't benefit from it?
should we first get fully acces to gen 3 because we hadn't a chance yet to test its full potential? ( we were missing tons of gen 3 pokemon )

 

[spoiler] some questions as a try to get back on topic [/spoiler]

 

Not sure, but might as well have it. Even if  i'll lose some hp pokes.

 

We wont know until we're actually in hoenn in the live server. I don't want to go on the pts again just to be mad that the update isn't out yet.

 

Any i guess. Gives some pokemon some stab moves, makes them more useful. Tenta finally has use with sludgebomb. Sharpedo can now be just a physical attacker, so i wont have to ev in atk and sp anymore(silly me). Gives and takes I guess. Kingler can be decent now with stab crabhammer or waterfall. That's my view of course and only since i like using water pokes, it's okay atm.

 

Pokes that wouldn't benefit from it is only the physical hp pokes like hp flying physical attackers anymore. And pokes with ap now that it turned special. All depends on the poke, i guess.

 

Atm i think it's too late to go back to gen3. We already passed that when we had gen4 egg moves. (Stolen)

 

But it does gives some pokes more options with the split. I agree with that. I'm 50/50 because i haven't adjusted to gen4 though.

Edited January 5, 2015 by IndigoGlacier

[BenGorgon]

Is it needed?:

 

Yes, imo it forces many people to re-order their comps, either through breeding or by spending money to re-EV and moveset. It also removes some of the value and necessity of having hidden power on many physical Pokemon.  While this is not the case for everything, I think it will be enough to shake things up a bit, and make people stay active to a degree if they want to compete, instead of riding the coat-tails of wealth through the new breeding system. 

 

Obliviously the people who are already wealthy have a head start, but that is how it should be. 

 

It also provides a fresh new way of looking at the competing Pokemon, apart from any other metas available, so people will have to think more critically about what is used, especially while we lack some of the later generation moves. 

 

how does the split affect the meta?

 

See above and below

 

which pokemon benefit from it?

 

The Pokemon that really benefits from it, are those physical attackers that previously had to rely on Hidden Power for coverage, or even a STAB (Absol come right to mind >.>). Pretty much any physical poke that has access to the E-Punches just got a whole lot of weight lifted off of them. The specific Pokes and their new movesets are still settling a bit, but you can see from looking at Gen 4 Movepools and Pokemon which just got a whole lot better. The Dragons in particular got some beatious buffs. People think of  Dragonite and Salamence, but seem to forget how awesome Flygon and Altaria are going to be with the split. 

 

 

Which Pokemon Does It Detract From?

 

Any Pokemon that needed a hidden power for a STAB. The most oblivious and previously talked about has been the Bugs. Poor guys... But the physical Pokemon hurt by this change is far outweighed by the sheer amount of physical attackers that just got a monumental buff. On the special side it is a bit to early to tell. Gengar obliviously got a huge buff, in that, it can finally run a STAB move. Alakazam also may prove more viable now that it can run Shadow Ball and HP Fighting. Yes there are a lot of moves that are probably more "choice" for some of these pokes with gen 4 moves, but in all, it is crippling a very small portion of the metagame. 

 

Should we first get fully access to gen 3 because we hadn't a chance yet to test its full potential? 

 

There are two huge reasons why Gen 4 was where serious competitive pokemon playing began. The first was obliviously the Wifi implementation, but really, the awards can mostly be given to the Special/Physical split. It just made so many things right about pokemon, and gave us so much more in the way of build options. It truely made the franchise it was today.

 

Now I played with people during the height of Gen 3 on Emerald and Firered, and it was pretty bad. Shallow movepools, a sparse handful of usable pokes, and generally terrible gameplay made battling there a pain. We already have greater movepools than we would have in vanilla Gen 3, so I am not seeing this "staying true to gen 3" argument. It was bad, and we have already rightly moved away from it. 

 

So lets keep this hype train moving forward!

Edited January 5, 2015 by BenGorgon

[lVlusay]

Just thinking of things that will get banned and stay banned. Salamence is banned, Ttar would have to remain banned because stab Crunch would make it too strong. Pursuit has to be banned as it would make Snorlax too strong. With pursuit lax not only hurts things that are weak to pursuit like starmie, gengar, alakazam, espeon and others, but also those that aren't weak to it: jolteon and some more. Pursuit banned means no more rapid spinning. No more Ice punch Gengar, so welcome back hidden power and psychic. Without Focus Blast, Gengar is sad...I do want to see Gyarados with a water stab, Machamp with ele punches, Arcanine with a physical stab, but we are just not ready for the split. Too many bans and too many pokemons will be useless without their 4th Gen moves and abilities.

Edited January 5, 2015 by lVlusay

[DoubleJ]

You only listed 2 pokes that would be negatively impacted (banned mence and tar), and listed multiple pokes that would benefit. Also no pursuit would increase rapid spin opportunities as one of the primary spinners in our meta is Starmie.

Banning Pursuit, Mence, and Tar are necessary and beneficial. Banning Dug would make sense as well. These aren't game breaking problems. Tar and Dug are gone now, pursuit is almost irrelevant, so the only huge loss is Salamence. I don't get why it's such a problem now.

There are 2 sides to every coin. While we all love to use Mence, it is just too easy to utilize and have success. The meta will thrive without and I am positive each of us will appreciate the upcoming changes. So please, let's step out of this cloud of negativity and just see what happens. You can trust the tier council to help make this change as positive as possible.

Inb4 tier council bashing; inb4 no listen to jj; inb4 more unnecessary arguing

[lVlusay]

I do not really agree, as expected. You have your points and some of the things you said might possibly be true. One thing I would ask for though is not to twist my argument. I did not list many pokemons that would benefit from the change. The only thing I said is that I would want to see Gyarados with a water stab, but not necessarily that it is a positive change. While it will get a water stab, it will loose its flying stab, that's just a trade off, not  benefit. Please don't tell me to use bounce. Same goes for Machamp. It would be nice to see it with ele punches (some day), but not now. Thunder punch does the same damage as cross chop to Skarmory and much more with a crit. It looses its hp ghost though. Trade off, certainly not a benefit. 

 

In terms of spin blockers the most commonly used in ou are Gengar and dusclops. Dusclops walls Starmie and with banned pursuit it's harder to get rid of it. Without pursuit, Houndoom will probably not be used as much. So while we might get Arcanine, we loose Houndoom. So again trade of, not benefit. And even if I wanted to spin, my only choice would be Starmie now? Just sad. I was really glad to see more Cloysters and especially more Forretresses. But we will see a huge decrease in their use without pursuit. Back to the days of one spiker. I know you could also list pokemons that would benefit from the change and we could do this all day. But I am strongly convinced that without the physical and special split there would be so much more team options. Salamence wouldn't have to be banned, Tyranitar could be unbanned, pursuit could be used (I know I am repeating myself) and with new pokemons the game would be so much better and bring so much diversity.

Edited January 5, 2015 by lVlusay

[DoubleJ]

Again this sounds more like an argument of preference of use. I could build a team with any of the pokemon we will have and likely have success with them. Creativity in team building trumps an individual pokemons skill or "assumed" effectiveness in the tier.

 

We will agree to disagree my friend. I'm not "twisting your words" just dissecting the limited information available to me from your post. You have a lot of thoughts that likely cannot be represented by a small text box.

 

Spin blocking is present today as many players don't use Houndoom on every team, the only truly effective Pursuit user, and we still see many, many, many spikers and a variety of rapid spinners. The game isn't broken right now, so once more, please avoid the negative aspects within this huge change that could potentially see pursuit being banned, as well as some of the truly broken heavy hitters.

[lVlusay]

You are right, we can agree to disagree. It is to some degree about preference of use, but most importantly it is about benefit vs alternative. The split update seems (to me) to bring more new stuff, but take away the old. But without the split we can keep both and enjoy full aspects of the game. Neither of us really know what will happen, so all we can do is to take educated guesses. I am sure all you want is this game and the community to benefit, so I appreciate your comments and arguments. Let's wait and see what happens.

[RyoOhsora]

Not sure, but might as well have it. Even if  i'll lose some hp pokes.

 

We wont know until we're actually in hoenn in the live server. I don't want to go on the pts again just to be mad that the update isn't out yet.

 

Any i guess. Gives some pokemon some stab moves, makes them more useful. Tenta finally has use with sludgebomb. Sharpedo can now be just a physical attacker, so i wont have to ev in atk and sp anymore(silly me). Gives and takes I guess. Kingler can be decent now with stab crabhammer or waterfall. That's my view of course and only since i like using water pokes, it's okay atm.

 

Pokes that wouldn't benefit from it is only the physical hp pokes like hp flying physical attackers anymore. And pokes with ap now that it turned special. All depends on the poke, i guess.

 

Atm i think it's too late to go back to gen3. We already passed that when we had gen4 egg moves. (Stolen)

 

But it does gives some pokes more options with the split. I agree with that. I'm 50/50 because i haven't adjusted to gen4 though.

 

Is it needed?:

 

Yes, imo it forces many people to re-order their comps, either through breeding or by spending money to re-EV and moveset. It also removes some of the value and necessity of having hidden power on many physical Pokemon.  While this is not the case for everything, I think it will be enough to shake things up a bit, and make people stay active to a degree if they want to compete, instead of riding the coat-tails of wealth through the new breeding system. 

 

Obliviously the people who are already wealthy have a head start, but that is how it should be. 

 

It also provides a fresh new way of looking at the competing Pokemon, apart from any other metas available, so people will have to think more critically about what is used, especially while we lack some of the later generation moves. 

 

how does the split affect the meta?

 

See above and below

 

which pokemon benefit from it?

 

The Pokemon that really benefits from it, are those physical attackers that previously had to rely on Hidden Power for coverage, or even a STAB (Absol come right to mind >.>). Pretty much any physical poke that has access to the E-Punches just got a whole lot of weight lifted off of them. The specific Pokes and their new movesets are still settling a bit, but you can see from looking at Gen 4 Movepools and Pokemon which just got a whole lot better. The Dragons in particular got some beatious buffs. People think of  Dragonite and Salamence, but seem to forget how awesome Flygon and Altaria are going to be with the split. 

 

 

Which Pokemon Does It Detract From?

 

Any Pokemon that needed a hidden power for a STAB. The most oblivious and previously talked about has been the Bugs. Poor guys... But the physical Pokemon hurt by this change is far outweighed by the sheer amount of physical attackers that just got a monumental buff. On the special side it is a bit to early to tell. Gengar obliviously got a huge buff, in that, it can finally run a STAB move. Alakazam also may prove more viable now that it can run Shadow Ball and HP Fighting. Yes there are a lot of moves that are probably more "choice" for some of these pokes with gen 4 moves, but in all, it is crippling a very small portion of the metagame. 

 

Should we first get fully access to gen 3 because we hadn't a chance yet to test its full potential? 

 

There are two huge reasons why Gen 4 was where serious competitive pokemon playing began. The first was obliviously the Wifi implementation, but really, the awards can mostly be given to the Special/Physical split. It just made so many things right about pokemon, and gave us so much more in the way of build options. It truely made the franchise it was today.

 

Now I played with people during the height of Gen 3 on Emerald and Firered, and it was pretty bad. Shallow movepools, a sparse handful of usable pokes, and generally terrible gameplay made battling there a pain. We already have greater movepools than we would have in vanilla Gen 3, so I am not seeing this "staying true to gen 3" argument. It was bad, and we have already rightly moved away from it. 

 

So lets keep this hype train moving forward!

ok ty for your answers now the whole thing makes more sense to me and i'm looking forward to it.