General Thread: Physical/Special split testing

[Senile]

so what you're saying is.. implement gen6 defog?

Nope. Wouldn't really help NU much at all anyway. As it turns out, taking 25% or more from a move you come in to try and remove isn't that great. The benefit Defog has over Rapid Spin is that it can't be spinblocked, which isn't that big of a deal in regards to why SR is good in NU. Most of the defoggers are either bad or can't really fit it, and they're all weak to the move as far as I can see.

 

Maybe we could all just, you know

 

[spoiler]adapt.[/spoiler]

[Robofiend]

There's no 1 poke that can deal with azumarill. Basically, there will have to be a core with strong prediction in order to survive it. Something like, Cloyster/stoise + Misdreavus. This is what I would call centralizing, so I would be in favor of a ban. I guess I wouldn't mind testing it, but the problem is we have a slowly evolving meta so we might not even see the effects of its power for a week or two, by which time those with access to one will be way ahead of the pack.

 

Honestly Azu's going to be good enough to be used in OU, especially if some of our prospective Ubers end up getting the boot. So even if everyone breeds one for UU it won't be like Granbull, who now lives in the trash box of everyone's PC. 

 

Also a few people (me and JJ at least) have Azus that are just itchin to get out and Waterfall some shit to death. Get ready, slowly adapting meta.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Robofiend

[OrangeManiac]

About Glalie, yeah it sure is a problematic case. I'm more convinced about the OPiness of Spikes than I was before and Glalie is the worst offender. With the existence of Torkoal, Pokemon like Cacturne and Roselia immediately lose their momentum when Torkoal switches in - either if they Spiked or not. Cacturne and Roselia would both be in a very unpleasant situation as they know something is going to take probably some major damage.

 

The difference with Glalie is that when Torkoal switches in on Glalie, the momentum doesn't swift that much. Glalie can Explode, which will hurt even this defensive beast leaving the Spikes on the field anyways. Now you could say "bring your explosion absorbers in!". The problem with this is that Glalie can and perhaps even should considering going for Earthquake which actually destroys to whatever Explosion absorber you had in mind to switch in, other than Sableye. The facts there are no drawbacks of using Glalie, even when you're facing a Torkoal - other than making a major mispredict and paying for it is the reason why I dislike Glalie being in NU as the Spiker compared to Cacturne and Roselia being the Spikers. There's absolutely no reason not to run Glalie in your team but there is a reason not to run Cacturne and Roselia. The whole metagame basically would be all about Glalie, Torkoal and Sableye and that is not what a metagame to me should look like.

About Felix's concerns about Ninjask, its physical moves and even more - the coverage - is absolutely horrible. The fact Metang, Mawile, Relicanth (minus Giga Drain of course) absolutely walls out it cold without having a neutral damage move against those 2 steel types makes even the correctly predicted Swords Dance cause you to be in a very unpleasant situation. And I'm not too convinced about the 40ish% damage on Relicanth, either. Oh yeah and Torkoal does pretty well too.

 

Electrode.. it's pretty hard to deal with. The fact it can get creative with its EVs due to insane speed is an issue. It cannot be completely walled because of Explosion except perhaps a Sp. Def bulk Sableye but that story changes with Rain Dance Thunder. Explosion absorbers itself work only with a really good prediction. Also the fact we could see some pseudo-rain teams and over Electrode "centralized" meta due to the fact water-types are quite common makes Electrode perhaps being a bit too much centralizing force itself. Electrode itself, it's not that good.. just face it. But the concerns might overshadow it.

The Pokemon that wasn't written about in this thread and what I thought should be really seriously discussed is Muk. It lost its physical viability by quite a lot due to Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb turning special. It has basically nothing going for it at the moment physically, other than Brick Break, Explosion, Shadow Punch and Epunches. Epunches sure are a factor to be feared of a little bit but it doesn't take away the fact Piloswine, Metang, Sableye, Relicanth (unless predicted Giga Drain), Chimecho (Shadow Punch won't hurt that much) will all basically counter it really hard. What's significant is that many of these Pokemon are perfect switch ins on Explosion. The other blob in town, Swalot will also check Muk quite easily due to having access to Earthquake. Swalot could be (how weird if it sounds) because of this one move basically a better choice where Muk works as if you will need that extra Special Defensive bulk on your team.

Edited January 9, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[londark]

The Pokemon that wasn't written about in this thread and what I thought should be really seriously discussed is Muk

 

With those Hp,Sp.Def and Atk wouldn't a Curse set be extremly OP in NU?

[OrangeManiac]

With those Hp,Sp.Def and Atk wouldn't a Curse set be extremly OP in NU?

Curse sure is a problem but I have always thought that Swalot's main moveset in NU should actually be Curse. Yet, I see it very rarely. Piloswine might be a huge reason to this but also the fact Encore is a very common move in NU due to basically Sableye "trapping" since especially Dewgong could abuse this the worst. Other options are Minun and Cacturne except the last needs some stuff like special HP Ground to do notable damage before Muk runs out of PP.

Edit:

Swalot and Togetic could also be somewhat viable users of Encore.

Edited January 9, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[RysPicz]

Do not bring Muk to NU with it's access to physical elepunches.

[Kiliminati]

Do not bring Muk to NU with it's access to physical elepunches.

Ice Punch Muk is nasty.

[BurntZebra]

Glalie stuff

Ninjask stuff

 

Electrode 

muk stuff

Muk is probably too much for NU still, even though it would lose shadow ball/sludge bomb physical stab, a special attacker set can still be viable since it gets just about every special attacking move, giga drain, thunderbolt, fire blast, sludge bomb, shadow ball, and gets more useful utility moves than swalot like haze+memento+disable. Not to mention it has overall better base stats than swalot, allowing it to be an even better special wall. I would say no to muk in NU.

 

Ninjask could probably be NU since its generally a really weak physical attacker and loses silver wind+hidden power as coverage, leaving it only with aerial ace really. The speed of ninjask might be annoying for something like flail kingler (if it stays NU) but I wouldn't say that's not a reason to try it in NU. If baton pass gets unbanned to any degree, ninjask would probably be moved up, but as of now, it is pretty poo, even with 160 base speed.

 

Electrode seems like a glalie on steroids to me, besides the spiking part. Electrode has several options that would prove to be problematic probably, it gets taunt to stop any spiker in their path and to prevent sableye from doing anything to it. Even though its attack isn't amazing, explosion is pretty much an easy kill as long as the other person doesn't switch in sableye, and stab thunderbolts/thunders are usually pretty dominant in NU. So electrode stays in UU imo.

 

I'm not really sure what you're proving about glalies ability to explode on torkoal for ~50% damage, it wouldn't be too useful unless you absolutely didn't need glalie. Earthquake doesn't do much to torkoal either, would only do damage if glalie was attack invested and choice band'ed but that seems highly unlikely. Roselia+Cacturne both have niches over glalie as spikers. Roselia gets access to sleep powder, natural cure, synthesis, and aromatherapy. Cacturne gets destiny bond, superpower, thunderpunch, a physical needle arm, attacks coming off from 115 sp atk/atk hurt a lot, in Nu at least. I wouldn't make bold claims that there is no reason not to run glalie, because not everyone wants a suicide spiker.

[OldKeith]

I'm not really sure what you're proving about glalies ability to explode on torkoal for ~50% damage, it wouldn't be too useful unless you absolutely didn't need glalie. Earthquake doesn't do much to torkoal either, would only do damage if glalie was attack invested and choice band'ed but that seems highly unlikely. Roselia+Cacturne both have niches over glalie as spikers. Roselia gets access to sleep powder, natural cure, synthesis, and aromatherapy. Cacturne gets destiny bond, superpower, thunderpunch, a physical needle arm, attacks coming off from 115 sp atk/atk hurt a lot, in Nu at least. I wouldn't make bold claims that there is no reason not to run glalie, because not everyone wants a suicide spiker.

 

Glalie has that bulk in contrast to the other two spikers. Defensive Stats 80/80/80, while Cacturne and Roselia have 70/60/60 and 50/45/80 respectively. Glalie was NU before, and its usage over Roselia was clear, no point trying to hide it. How safe do you feel to switch in the grass spikers in comparison to Glalie? Glalie can run a multitude of spreads, from a totally offensive set to a massive bulk that guarantees three layers of spikes easily, something that the grass ones certainly cannot do. I think we should let Roselia and Cacturne to roam a bit in the post update meta, and talk Glalie later.

 

Another NU that needs to be discussed is Lunatone. It gains the stab Ancientpower now, but it is very similar stats to Chimecho, barring the extra rock typing: two levitating psychics with instant recovery, access to calm mind and very similar base stats. With choice band, a lot of things can now ohko Lunatone, making its CM set less of a threat than it was before.

 

Lairon 252 attack choice band Iron Tail vs max def Lunatone 106.2% - 126.6%

Metang 252 attack choice band Meteor Mash vs max def Lunatone 94.9% - 113%

Relicanth 252+ attack (no band) Waterfall vs max def Lunatone 94.9% - 111.9%

 

Since Chimecho and Lunatone are so similar, I think they should share the tier, be it NU or UU. But I think their typing an ability would be a huge gain for NU.

[DoubleJ]

Well I guess it's just time we brought Blastoise down to spin. I mean Cacturne and Rose can handle him all fine and such.

 

=)

[OldKeith]

Well I guess it's just time we brought Blastoise down to spin. I mean Cacturne and Rose can handle him all fine and such.

 

=)

 

Gib Starmie.

[OrangeManiac]

I like the fact Lunatone can be hit both physically and specially super effectively quite easily now. Way before the safest bet was just to go to your Lunatone of your own and just start Calm Mind back, however that isn't the case anymore. The thing I'm the most worried about is its offensive presence with all the possible Hidden Powers and special Ancientpower. I don't think you can legit counter this thing and its speed isn't too awful at all.

[LionKIng]

Even if muk looses his stab physical sludge bomb and his shadow ball it still gets ele punches, its pretty bulky and very versatile..it would be like a swalot on steroids...

 

 

 

i have to agree with keith id see Lunatone do nice in NU 

 

About Azumarill ................ Do i even need to explain myself? thing gets stab waterfall , physical ice punch return and super power...with its super strong offense and its pretty big bulkyness nothing can switch in safelly on it...it will all be predicts and even without CB azu can be a huge threat behind a sub... It should instantly get the boot after the update but thats only my oppinion

 

Kingler is just like azumarill for NU, less bulky but just as powerfull , getting physical crab hammer makes it just that much stronger (crab hammer, return, super power) too strong for NU

 

I would also bring down crobat to UU , it looses everything it has physically besides aerial ace ...and it only has 70 sp attack with a limited movepool (heat wave giga drain shadow ball sludge bomb air cutter) I could see crobat being a good taunter and a nice hazer if something gets out of hand with the set up, pretty healty for the meta

 

And i would consider bringing Weezing to UU, with the split and alot of strong pokes getting stab waterfall (sharpedo,poliwrath,kabutops for exemple) it would just give us a nice wall that can take those hits, the reason why it never got moved down was because it was a pretty nice mixed attacker but now it has no physical moves besides explosion...and the UU meta has alot of cleric , more then in OU and they are praticly all specially defensive

Edited January 9, 2015 by LionKIng

[Sacky]

Well I guess it's just time we brought Blastoise down to spin. I mean Cacturne and Rose can handle him all fine and such.

 

=)

toise for NU?

that's gonna be like snorlax in OU..is taht really necesary?

[LionKIng]

toise for NU?

that's gonna be like snorlax in OU..is taht really necesary?

It was a joke Sacky, sarcasm. But its alright , i sometimes don't understand other languages Sarcasm

Edited January 9, 2015 by LionKIng

[RysPicz]

It was a joke Sacky, sarcasm. But its alright , i sometimes don't understand other languages Sarcasm

TTar for UU, Hitmontop counters it asf

[BurntZebra]

TTar for UU, Hitmontop counters it asf

snorlax could have been nu when diglett was nu.. rip

[fredrichnietze]

Forf, please keep discussion related to one of the already developed three threads related to this topic... =)

 

Thoughts on Kabutops then? Choice Band STAB Waterfall + Double-Edge + Superpower + STAB Rock Slide, with higher speed and relative Attack stat.  

toss d edge for knock off (physical now) to remove leftovers and choice bands from counters making them easier to kill

 

There has been some discussion in the NU council and if the split was implemented we thought that:

 

Banette moved down to NU.

Loses Shadow Ball and HP Fighting.

 

Glalie stays in UU.

Only 1 really viable rapid spinner will be in the tier and Glalie can still switch in and get spikes down with little risk and then explode on any threats.

 

Venomoth moved up to UU.

Special attacking set will be really good now it gets 2 special STABS.

 

Crawdaunt moved up to UU.

Gains physical STABS, previous lack of was the only thing keeping it in NU.

 

Seviper moved up to UU.

Becomes a great special attacker. 

 

Ninjask moved down to NU.

It's bad. 

 

Things that we are still undecided on and would like input on~

Electrode in NU?

Kingler to UU or tested in NU for a while ?

Octillery in NU? (yes this argument again) 

bannete sure

galie im on the fence about and i dont think i know enough to have a good opinion atm

venomoth would be a monster in nu so +1

crawdaut support

seviper support

ninjask i thought was wrong at first but it's phsyical movepool is horrible. best bug move is furry cutter and coverage wise it's horrible.

trode i think would be problematic. just as boom + screens + spec move it would cause havoc. not for offensive reasons but support. with trode being able to set up screens then go boom things like poli could come in and set up sweep easy.

kingler to UU. waterfall hits as hard as donphan EQ and it has super power + de coverage over everything. 

octilery idk.

 

I don't think ninjask would fit NU, aerial ace isn't an amazing attack, powered with swords dance, substitute and fucking 160 base speed, it can easily sweep when stell/rock types are gone. It can have giga drain/hidden power grass to scare relicanths with even with ninjask bad spa will hurt a lot

 

(- def ninjask, +def relicanth)

0 SpA Ninjask Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Relicanth: 76-92 (36.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

will probably force everyone to run one or more of lairon/mawile/relicanth/torkoal to deal with it ( i could be missing something here)

your missing relicanth will be banned from NU with waterfall (and rockslide garunteed 1hko vs ninjask cause 4x)

[felix]

your missing relicanth will be banned from NU with waterfall (and rockslide garunteed 1hko vs ninjask cause 4x)

Actually my meantion was for Relicanth switching in a Ninjask's Giga Drain, not in a 1v1 scenario.

I was afraid of his base speed, speed boost, access to sd, but has nothing to pair with it, Yanma do the speed boost job way better, at least has some base spa to work with signal beam/shadow ball and ofc, access to reversal, i think Ninajask can't even be played in NU, maybe just a late game sweeper, and even that may not work out.

[OldKeith]

When I was testing NU teams with Noad (gen 4 showdown) I looked at the list of possible movedowns from UU, and I always found something better to use in their place. They are just bad.

[DrCraig]

When I was testing NU teams with Noad (gen 4 showdown) I looked at the list of possible movedowns from UU, and I always found something better to use in their place. They are just bad.

Same happened when I was compiling data for my tier research paper.

[Yoloswag]

Wow had to log in just to post on how ridiculous this council is. This is all nothing but bitching. QQ my blissey cant wall anymore let's ban every pseudo Pokémon in the process. You all are overestimating the physical/special split.

Test before jumping to conclusions

[IndigoGlacier]

Wow had to log in just to post on how ridiculous this council is. This is all nothing but uguuing. QQ my blissey cant wall anymore let's ban every pseudo Pokémon in the process. You all are overestimating the physical/special split.

Test before jumping to conclusions

Your name is Yoloswag and you say test before jumping to conclusions. lmfao.

[Robofiend]

There has been some discussion in the NU council and if the split was implemented we thought that:

 

Banette moved down to NU.

Loses Shadow Ball and HP Fighting.

 

ok

 

Glalie stays in UU.

Only 1 really viable rapid spinner will be in the tier and Glalie can still switch in and get spikes down with little risk and then explode on any threats.

 

Test this one. It's not obvious how/why Glalie would actually be Uber with Torkoal around (who counters everything Glalie does). Also the offense boost in the split should lessen the effectiveness of spikes.

 

Venomoth moved up to UU.

Special attacking set will be really good now it gets 2 special STABS.

 

fair enough.

 

Crawdaunt moved up to UU.

Gains physical STABS, previous lack of was the only thing keeping it in NU.

 

​not to mention Dragon Dance. probably worthy of quickbanning.

 

Seviper moved up to UU.

Becomes a great special attacker. 

 

​bad speed + bad hp + bad defenses = uber? I think you should test. Slow pokes generally have to be bulky to be effective: maybe Seviper can break a wall or two but it doesn't seem to meet the TC's criterion for Offensive Uber-ness. I'd like to see the argument that Seviper can "sweep a significant portion of the NU meta with little effort". 

 

Ninjask moved down to NU.

It's bad. 

 

​ok

 

Things that we are still undecided on and would like input on~

Electrode in NU?

Kingler to UU or tested in NU for a while ?

Octillery in NU? (yes this argument again) 

 

Test Electrode

Test Kingler

Test Octogod

 

Consider letting Kadabra into the tier. Also Sneasel now that it doesn't have Shadowball? Both die to CB Ninjask, so it's not like either will be able to set up and sweep without fear.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Robofiend

[flavajabari]

Test Electrode

Test Kingler

Test Octogod

 

Consider letting Kadabra into the tier. Also Sneasel now that it doesn't have Shadowball?

 

doesnt sneasel get icepunch + pursuit now though ?