[OU Discussion] Slowbro [Remains OU]

[DoubleJ]

Surf + Psychic is hands down the best option only resisted by Starmie. Although it unfortunately just doesn't provide the necessary punch to OHKO the bulky Physical Sweepers available, most notably Dragonite and Gyarados which can set up on you, and kill you in 2 hits.

 

EDIT: And Slowbro. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Robofiend]

so when you ban slowbro... you also need to bann all cb user and ddancer as well xP

 

Obviously not, Swampert actually covers a ton of offensive threats

 

toxic which is Literally everywhere completely shits it down. 

 

Fred, wot

 

Look at the usage statistics, Slowbro and Blissey are the only two pokemon in the top 15 that commonly run toxic, everything else is either a tank, defensive wall or sweeper. Sure, Blissey can run Toxic, but it'd much rather be able to support its teammates with Wish or gets some better coverage with Bolt+Beam.

I think the real point here, which Orange/Nik echoed, is that Toxic itself is just bad in the OU metagame, and running it just to cover one pokemon (who often has cleric support) is a testament to how hard it is to take down a Slowbro. Orange's post does a great job of showing that even Gengar/Jolteon have trouble breaking this thing at +1Spdef and nothing* can hurt it on the physical side.

 

*it can be hurt but it covers its counters pretty well and can stall for lefties recovery on many 3HKO attacks.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

'Nothing can hurt it on the physical side"

 

+1 252+ Gyara Crunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (49-.5 - 58.4%)

 

40 SpAtt Lonely Dragonite Thunder vs 252/252+ Slowbro (55.4 - 66.3%)

 

+1 252+ Metagross Thunderpunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (48.5 - 57.4%)

 

+2 252 Blaziken Thunderpunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (60.3 - 71.2%)

 

+1 252+ Snorlax Crunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (44.5 - 53.4%)

 

 

Most of these are 2HKO's that force a switch, or force Slowbro to use Slack Off or switch. Saying that no physical attacker can hurt Slowbro is kind of silly. Also...

 

+1 252 Heracross Megahorn vs 252/252+ Slowbro (100.9 - 118.8%)

 

... and that's Jolly with Choice Band, and not Adamant with Swords Dance.

[Robofiend]

'Nothing can hurt it on the physical side"

 

+1 252+ Gyara Crunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (49-.5 - 58.4%)

>but no one sends in Slowbro to counter Gyarados, even if it does come in on a Slowbro it risks taking 30% from Psychic

 

40 SpAtt Lonely Dragonite Thunder vs 252/252+ Slowbro (55.4 - 66.3%)

>Thunder is pretty much unseen on Dragonite, although I do feel that people overlook Dragon's special movepool too often. Nonetheless, questionable argument given the likelihood of a Dnite ban.

 

+1 252+ Metagross Thunderpunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (48.5 - 57.4%)

>Slowbro can still stall this out a lot of the time. Also lefties 'Gross seems a lot more popular than CB at this point. Also, this attack is usually a 3HKO, so Slowbro can just stall for lefties recovery.

 

+2 252 Blaziken Thunderpunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (60.3 - 71.2%)

>sure, you get 60% damage but you're still gonna get OHKO'd by Surf. Blaziken doesn't check/counter Slowbro in any way, so this scenario is kinda unlikely.

 

+1 252+ Snorlax Crunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (44.5 - 53.4%)

>Again, no one sends in Slowbro to counter Snorlax so it's kinda a moot point. 

 

Most of these are 2HKO's that force a switch, or force Slowbro to use Slack Off or switch. Saying that no physical attacker can hurt Slowbro is kind of silly. Also...

 

+1 252 Heracross Megahorn vs 252/252+ Slowbro (100.9 - 118.8%)

>Heracross is definitely a threat to Slowbro's existence but it has trouble switching in on STAB Psychic

 

... and that's Jolly with Choice Band, and not Adamant with Swords Dance.

 

ok, so not "nothing" but these points should illustrate how hard it is to reliably get a Slowbro counter effectively into play

[fredrichnietze]

Obviously not, Swampert actually covers a ton of offensive threats

 

 

Fred, wot

 

Look at the usage statistics, Slowbro and Blissey are the only two pokemon in the top 15 that commonly run toxic, everything else is either a tank, defensive wall or sweeper. Sure, Blissey can run Toxic, but it'd much rather be able to support its teammates with Wish or gets some better coverage with Bolt+Beam.

I think the real point here, which Orange/Nik echoed, is that Toxic itself is just bad in the OU metagame, and running it just to cover one pokemon (who often has cleric support) is a testament to how hard it is to take down a Slowbro. Orange's post does a great job of showing that even Gengar/Jolteon have trouble breaking this thing at +1Spdef and nothing can hurt it on the physical side.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Toxic_%28move%29

"All Pokémon who can learn TMs can learn Toxic except Unown, Wobbuffet,Wynaut, Kricketot, Burmy, Tynamo, and Spewpa."

 

you only need one pokemon that has toxic and nearly everything learns it. throw it on something that can tank several hits from bro and there you go. as to the viability, you have said numerous times that slowbro is everywhere. as toxic counters it hard why should you not devote one move on one pokemon to hard counter bro? toxic also hard counters DD gyara with no sub(another very popluar poke), and will kill or at least damage many pokemon in OU. yes there are steel types. yes there are poison types. yes there are clerics. my point stands. clerics have been nerfed to a degree with the "hyper offensive meta". and prediction as always is key.

[RyoOhsora]

Obviously not, Swampert actually covers a ton of offensive threats

 

so? after slowbro got banned swampert is next or what are you trying to say here?

it only  replace slowbro in the usage statistic which shouldn't imo be  a reason for a ban.

and as DoubleJJ said slowbro isn't as bulky as you think on the physical side.

[DrCraig]

so? after slowbro got banned swampert is next or what are you trying to say here?

it only  replace slowbro in the usage statistic which shouldn't imo be  a reason for a ban.

and as DoubleJJ said slowbro isn't as bulky as you think on the physical side.

No he is inferring that after bro is banned we still have other options. You know what he meant, c'mon now.

And let's be real here, commenting on that has no effective on Bro's fate.

[Frag]

dnite for sure will be banned, but this boy is not even close. I can't believe someone here said that toxic is shit, 4 of my 7 bliss had toxic to deal with cminders and another bliss also, btw toxic forre spits on cloyster. seems like someone need help with teambuilding.

[RyoOhsora]

No he is inferring that after bro is banned we still have other options. You know what he meant, c'mon now.

And let's be real here, commenting on that has no effective on Bro's fate.

i don't see the point why slowbro has to be banned srsly.

it can be easily forced out by thunderpunch dragonclaw cruch which hurts it alot on the physical side and special... it needs its cm boost without it it will be down really fast...
those are ofc only a few examples how to deal with it and those attacks are common in teams.
 

if a pokemon has enough counters / checks its not bannworthy is it?

Edited February 11, 2015 by RyoOhsora

[DoubleJ]

Robofiend, I'm sorry I can't quote you, but I am on my tablet. I don't think it's fair of you to entirely exclude my arguments since most physical attackers can't OHKO Slowbro. Things like Spikes, Toxics, and even secondary effects like Paralysis make the stall method by Slowbro difficult to use.

 

Also, Slack Off is just 10-16 PP. That is severely hindered when attempting to stall out attacks commonly with 15+.

 

Also, after Weezing, we don't have a reliable Defensive wall outside of Slowbro to stop Gyarados. Saying Slowbro doesn't swap into Gyarados is false. It commonly does when players choose not to use limited Weezing.

[OldKeith]

Also, after Weezing, we don't have a reliable Defensive wall outside of Slowbro to stop Gyarados. 

 

But but... Breloom.

Edited February 12, 2015 by OldKeith

[Robofiend]

seems like someone need help with teambuilding

 

>implying I build teams in the first place #RIPcouncil

>resort to ad hominem to win debate ggnore

 

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

 

 

Also, after Weezing, we don't have a reliable Defensive wall outside of Slowbro to stop Gyarados. Saying Slowbro doesn't swap into Gyarados is false. It commonly does when players choose not to use limited Weezing.

 

 

Remember that we're not allowed to keep broken things around to check other broken things  :). If losing Slowbro means something else is going to be OP you know as well as anyone the TC's protocol. Also anyone who sends the 'Bro into play against Gyarados better have HP Electric because otherwise they're just sacking their Slowbro, your calcs show that. Vaporeon is just as good as Slowbro at stopping DD Gyarados (aka not very good). I personally think Weezing is a fine wall with access to Tbolt/Fire Blast, it's just overshadowed by Slowbro's advantages and its inability to stop Dragonite.

 

But but... Breloom.

 

 

Dat bullet seed.

 

Last: nice to see some good discussion here. Everyone's got all this pent up rage from the monthlong hiatus from tiering discussions, I missed this.

 

Edited February 12, 2015 by Robofiend

[fredrichnietze]

>implying I build teams in the first place #RIPcouncil

>resort to ad hominem to win debate ggnore

 

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

 

>uses "'the fallacy fallacy" AND "tu quoque"

nice pic thou i legit laughed outloud in public

 

 

Remember that we're not allowed to keep broken things around to check other broken things  :). If losing Slowbro means something else is going to be OP you know as well as anyone the TC's protocol. Also anyone who sends the 'Bro into play against Gyarados better have HP Electric because otherwise they're just sacking their Slowbro, your calcs show that. Vaporeon is just as good as Slowbro at stopping DD Gyarados (aka not very good). I personally think Weezing is a fine wall with access to Tbolt/Fire Blast, it's just overshadowed by Slowbro's advantages and its inability to stop Dragonite.

 

a to z a bit? you are assuming dnite/gyara/ect.... will get banned and to my knowledge no decision has been made. it's still being decided.

 

Dat bullet seed.

 

Last: nice to see some good discussion here. Everyone's got all this pent up rage from the monthlong hiatus from tiering discussions, I missed this.

ditto. this is like sleep after a 3 week "all nighter"

 

[caughtem]

anyone mention trick + CB zam?

 

inb4 "dumb gimmick"

Edited February 12, 2015 by caughtem

[JonazDK]

anyone mention trick + CB zam?
 
inb4 "dumb gimmick"

By the fact that trick still is bugged yes it is dumb...

[fredrichnietze]

anyone mention trick + CB zam?

 

inb4 "dumb gimmick"

someone once upon a time made a very good arguments against using gimmicks in tier disscusions (probably senile). gimmicks rely on your opponent not knowing how they work and not expecting it. if you know abotu and expect trick/band then you can switch to a cb'er for free and get min 1 free hit.

[Robofiend]

stuff

 

For the record I'm not assuming anything's going to be banned, I'm just reiterating the old "don't keep broken stuff around to check broken stuff" addage. JJ seemed to be saying that we can't ban Slowbro because it can check some non-Crunch Gyarados (or if it has HP Electric) and without the Bro Gyara would be much scarier. That said, if you look at the Dragonite thread you'd be hard pressed to find a top-tier comp player arguing that Drago should stay.

[fredrichnietze]

if you look at the Dragonite thread you'd be hard pressed to find a top-tier comp player arguing that Drago should stay.

im offended

 

(srs thou have you read my post? if not pls do)

[mcdoener]

 

What would a CM slowbro do against a Haze Vporeon? damage it with about 20%? while vaporeon's HP electric deals about 35% on slowbro

35% is not enough when Slack off gives 50% HP back. It's basically a PP stalemate.

Well i know it would end in PP stall, but vapo is a quite good supporter and if your team is so weak a gainst a Slowbro it can help you out in this specific situation. (im pretty sure people will switch out slowbro if they see you use Haze all the time)

-Also I could repeat what is already said with Thunderpunch / Taunt and Leech Seed and that it may is important to use slack off after the switch in and you canot CM then.

 

I think Taunt users should have been more discussed in this thread, tbh.

-Additional you can easily counter slowbro with your Crunchlax(curse) and if you swtich your curselax in you are in a very good position whether if you opponent switches or not.

I provided a calculation in this thread to pretty much show that +1 CM Slowbro will be in quite equal situation with an incoming CurseSnorlax so not really a "counter".

Slowbro has no chance(without a crit)  to kill that lax before lax is killing slowbro (even iv lax would be damaged very much)

-Roar/whirlwind/haze/toxic can force a switch. If you force your opponent to switch all the time when he CMed he will run out of PP.

Well doesn't help much, since Roar and Whirlwind has negative priority. Even if you take "only" +1 Slowbro will most often than not deal quite notable damage before phazed out. The damage output is much bigger thing than the lost PP, and with all PP Maxed it's not like PP is really a problem.

You are right Roar and WW is not that effective. But combined with spikes and healing it can do well against slowbro

-Furthermore you can always sweep a slowbro even if its fully CMed => Atomic-Bomb-Lax and Explosion Metagross

Explosion is always OP in this generation and if anything, it doesn't tell that something isn't OP when you have to take down your own Poke to get your opponent down.

Explosion is always used to defeat your "problem" if the rest of your team cant deal with a specific Pokemon you just blow up

 

[DoubleJ]

For the record I'm not assuming anything's going to be banned, I'm just reiterating the old "don't keep broken stuff around to check broken stuff" addage. JJ seemed to be saying that we can't ban Slowbro because it can check some non-Crunch Gyarados (or if it has HP Electric) and without the Bro Gyara would be much scarier. That said, if you look at the Dragonite thread you'd be hard pressed to find a top-tier comp player arguing that Drago should stay.

 

Sorry, you misunderstood me. Your above statement was not my argument. This was just a response to the following statement by yourself...

 

+1 252+ Gyara Crunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (49-.5 - 58.4%)

>but no one sends in Slowbro to counter Gyarados, even if it does come in on a Slowbro it risks taking 30% from Psychic

 

This is just showing that Gyarados is an appropriate physical check for Slowbro and challenging your statement that Slowbro can take any physical attacker.

 

The only catch with this is that Slowbro with HP Electric can handle it very well. But, a Slowbro with HP Electric loses coverage on something else. The most balanced moveset would include HP Electric + Surf/Ice Beam, which fails to stop a few of our bulky smashers, most notably Heracross (when you have a chance to hit it) or Metagross/Blaziken (No Surf). 

 

Also there is a fallacy in your statement that I'm referring to above as it seems to be arguing from two different points of view. 

[Robofiend]

Sorry, you misunderstood me. Your above statement was not my argument. This was just a response to the following statement by yourself...

 

+1 252+ Gyara Crunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro (49-.5 - 58.4%)

>but no one sends in Slowbro to counter Gyarados, even if it does come in on a Slowbro it risks taking 30% from Psychic

 

This is just showing that Gyarados is an appropriate physical check for Slowbro and challenging your statement that Slowbro can take any physical attacker.

 

The only catch with this is that Slowbro with HP Electric can handle it very well. But, a Slowbro with HP Electric loses coverage on something else. The most balanced moveset would include HP Electric + Surf/Ice Beam, which fails to stop a few of our bulky smashers, most notably Heracross (when you have a chance to hit it) or Metagross/Blaziken (No Surf). 

 

I see your point better now after running some calcs. Looks like Gyara can beat Slowbro (esp. if it has good damage rolls). But if Slowbro sets up it has a chance to 2HKO Gyara with Psychic and the threat of HP Electric, while small, is usually enough to make people want to use Curselax as a Slowbro check.

[RysPicz]

Don't forget about Crunch's 20% chance of dropping def, which ensures 2hko even if Gyara is jolly.

[semjon]

Knock off helps alot dealing with bro, as it helps dealing with every wall ;)

[Rigamorty]

I for one like to use p2 to kill bro. Toxic + tbolt stops it cold, and I dont use it just for slowbro so don't cry about centralization. Its a solid answer to gyarados and swampert sometimes. This is mostly in response to earlier when people said nothing runs toxic and blissey is the only good counter etc.

[DoubleJ]

I for one like to use p2 to kill bro. Toxic + tbolt stops it cold, and I dont use it just for slowbro so don't cry about centralization. Its a solid answer to gyarados and swampert sometimes. This is mostly in response to earlier when people said nothing runs toxic and blissey is the only good counter etc.

 

How defensive do you have to build P2 to become a reliable check for both of those though?