[Discussion] Spikes

[codylramey]

B4 anybody gets the wrong idea about this thread my goal here isnt to get rid of spikes. But since robofiend brough up the topic of spikes in the snorlax thread, a topic ive thought a little bit about for a while now, I wanted to get everyone else's opinion on the subject. Is spikes healthy for the metagame? The way i see it the move spikes forces you to run a rapid spinner. With only two spinners in each tier if you want to run a spinner you have to choose from those two. I have often found myself runnin 2 steel types just so i can run a spinner thats not starmie, and metagross is too gud not to use. If im running starmie i am often either running another spcl attacker or stuck using starmie as my spcl attacker. I know that chances are spikes are here to stay, and that is fine. Spikes power has greatly became nerfed with the fast pace meta anyway. But i did want to get the communities opinion on how healthy it is for the meta.

Edited March 2, 2015 by codylramey

[flavajabari]

spinblocking is annoying especially now with the limited spike/rapidspin users, but theres always pursuit to ruin their day.

[YagamiNoir]

We have enough spinning. And spinblocking is worse than it was before post-Pursuit buff. Gengar may now be an S rank dominant force, but it's not like it spinblocks stuff like Starmie that effectively anyway (although admittedly less RS Starmie run Psychic, I guess.) 

 

There are only two Spikes users in each tier? Guess what, there are also only two reliable Spikers. One of which can be reliably trapped and eliminated from Mr.Magneton, who can also revenge Forretress if it has HP Fire and on a safe switch. 

[BurntZebra]

We have enough spinning. And spinblocking is worse than it was before post-Pursuit buff. Gengar may now be an S rank dominant force, but it's not like it spinblocks stuff like Starmie that effectively anyway (although admittedly less RS Starmie run Psychic, I guess.) 

 

There are only two Spikes users in each tier? Guess what, there are also only two reliable Spikers. One of which can be reliably trapped and eliminated from Mr.Magneton, who can also revenge Forretress if it has HP Fire and on a safe switch. 

LF Mr. Cloyster. Well about the starmie situation, even though starmie kind of beats gengar if it has psychic, starmie rarely runs enough speed to outpace gengars now and gengar has a useful stab shadow ball to ohko starmies. Also starmie was crippled a lot more by pursuit than gengar, just because gengar can will o wisp and pain split off damage. Anyways I don't really see a spikes ban happening ever because the move isn't uncompetitive and skarmory/cloyster/forretress aren't OP either

[felix]

Spikers:

Skarmory

Forretress

Cloyster

Glalie

Cacturne

Roselia

 

Spinners:

Cloyster

Forretress

Donphan

Starmie

Blastoise

Hitmontop

Claydol

Tentacruel

Armaldo

Golem

Sandslash

Kabutops

Delibird

Spinda

 

(The ones with a strike are the ones I don't consider effective)

 

I see way more viable spinners than spikers and of the three useable ones, Magneton can switch in easily (unless cloyster has surf, without surf cloyster doesn't have either explosion or rapid spin), trap at least two, and with Thunderbolt and HP Fire take them out easily and avoid many layers of spike.

 

I don't see it as uncompetitive, is just annoying, like flinch from waterfall or rock slide.

[gbwead]

Spikers:

Skarmory

Forretress

Cloyster

Glalie

Cacturne

Roselia

 

Spinners:

Cloyster

Forretress

Donphan

Starmie

Blastoise

Hitmontop

Claydol

Tentacruel

Armaldo

Golem

Sandslash

Kabutops

Delibird

Spinda

 

(The ones with a strike are the ones I don't consider effective)

 

I see way more viable spinners than spikers and of the three useable ones, Magneton can switch in easily (unless cloyster has surf, without surf cloyster doesn't have either explosion or rapid spin), trap at least two, and with Thunderbolt and HP Fire take them out easily and avoid many layers of spike.

 

I don't see it as uncompetitive, is just annoying, like flinch from waterfall or rock slide.

I believe omastar should be mentionned as a spiker (really similar to cloyster) and torkoal should be mentionned as a rapid spinner.

 

Delibird is also a spiker.

 

Claydol is an amazing spinner since it takes no dmg from spikes and it can also hit gengar pretty hard on a good predict.

 

BTW flinch is RNG and spikes aren't. I don't see how they can be compared.

[felix]

I believe omastar should be mentionned as a spiker (really similar to cloyster) and torkoal should be mentionned as a rapid spinner.

 

Delibird is also a spiker.

 

Claydol is an amazing spinner since it takes no dmg from spikes and it can also hit gengar pretty hard on a good predict.

 

BTW flinch is RNG and spikes aren't. I don't see how they can be compared.

forgot to mention those, thanks for pointing it out.

 

I was comparing then in the annoying aspect not as competitive ones. You don't build a rng strategy (unless SG pokes), while spike strategy is pretty viable, but wasn't a good one D:

[Kizhaz]

LF Defog

[MisterHide]

LF Defog

LF stealth rock too

 

About spikes, I don't see it as a uncompetitive thing, its just something that prevent your opponent to constantly switch, but it would be nice if we had other options to set up spikes/stealth rock etc, plus new way to get rid of this such as defog will bring more diversty in our metagame

[Anjovies]

shitfish also get spikes iirc

[fredrichnietze]

hitmontop&lee also get spin as tyrouge gets it as egg move. and cb kabu runs waterfall/super/rockslide but the 4th move can be spin/knock off/aa and if you dont have a spinner putting that on a cb kabu could work. same with cb golem/slash.

[epicdavenport]

hitmontop&lee also get spin as tyrouge gets it as egg move. and cb kabu runs waterfall/super/rockslide but the 4th move can be spin/knock off/aa and if you dont have a spinner putting that on a cb kabu could work. same with cb golem/slash.

Hitmonchan as well though he is not as popular as the other 2.

[codylramey]

Id like to point out a couple of things. First idt anybody said that spiikes were uncompetitve. The reason I personally don't like them is bc it forces me to run a spinner which, while we have more than I thought we did, we don't really have that many viable options for spinners. Star, fortress, and cloyster (who is arguably outclassed by f ortress) are about all we have in OU. Donphan is okay but he doesn't really do much in OU imo same with cladol. In UU it seems there are more options. But some of them on this list prolly would never run rapid spin. For example hitmonlee and himonchn. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I feel like these two prolly shouldn't have rapid spin. I could be wrong tho. Just keep that in mind when listing pokes, its pointless having rapid spin avaiable on a poke if that poke would never use it. Its like having quick atk on jolteon to deal with reversal users.

Edited March 2, 2015 by codylramey

[gbwead]

Spikes gives you free turns to set up w.e you want. You don't need a spinner if you know what you are doing. Furthermore, with all the levitate pokemons and the flying pokemons, they are really not that big of a deal.

 

What is the point of this discussion? Spikes are annoying. OK. So what?

I personnally find wish to be very annoying, so i'm just gonna make sure my team can handle long battles. Thats it.

[Robofiend]

We have enough spinning. And spinblocking is worse than it was before post-Pursuit buff. Gengar may now be an S rank dominant force, but it's not like it spinblocks stuff like Starmie that effectively anyway (although admittedly less RS Starmie run Psychic, I guess.) 

 

The main problem with Starmie is that it's really vulnerable to pursuit from the likes of Aerodactyl, Snorlax and Metagross, all of whom make for great revenge killers or even checks, depending on what Starmie does and how much bulk it has.

 

Donphan is actually a viable OU spinner and phaser... that also struggles to take out Gengar. Outside of that, most of the OU spinners are really bad. Forretress is offenseless Curselax/Gengar bait, Starmie loses a lot of functionality with the popularity of DD Gyarados and Jolteon (not to mention Snorlax or Metagross abusing their Psychic resist/good bulk and Pursuiting it out) and Cloyster/Claydol don't really wall anything given the popularity of Fighting/Water/Dark/Electric type attacks on physical attackers. Blastoise is usable, especially if it has HP Electric, but it also struggles with some of OU's more extreme physical hits (esp. Tpunches or strong Fighting STABS).

 

I'm not really sure if we have good reason to ban Spikes (or the pokemon who use it) but like I said when I originally mentioned this, it's really weird to have a metagame where it's so hard to stop a common threat to your team's health without giving up a lot of functionality on other fronts.

[XPLOZ]

Actually you are not forced to run a rapid spinner. You can just try to prevent the opponent from setting up his spikes. This metagame is mainly 3G even if there are some things coming from other gens, so there is a lack of many possibilities, not just about spinners.

Spinners aren't so good (starmie who suffers from this unbalanced metagame, foretress who has a poor movepool without 4G moves...).

 

But what about spikers ? Skarmony is waiting for some 4G moves while he is suffering from the physical/special split with all those Epunches. Moreover he can get totally and easily owned by Magnenoob (rip hp ground, which was anyway useless). Foretress, you just said he was offenseless so you might be able to set-up things on. Cloyster you just said he was bad (even if this isn't true because he offers unique possibilities), so he won't cause you problems. What else ? I don't even know.

 

This metagame is quite poor so if we start to ban lots of mechanisms (baton pass, spikes, then status because it forces us to play a healbeller that we don't want to play... ... ...), this will become worse.

[codylramey]

Actually you are not forced to run a rapid spinner. You can just try to prevent the opponent from setting up his spikes. This metagame is mainly 3G even if there are some things coming from other gens, so there is a lack of many possibilities, not just about spinners.

Spinners aren't so good (starmie who suffers from this unbalanced metagame, foretress who has a poor movepool without 4G moves...).

T

But what about spikers ? Skarmony is waiting for some 4G moves while he is suffering from the physical/special split with all those Epunches. Moreover he can get totally and easily owned by Magnenoob (rip hp ground, which was anyway useless). Foretress, you just said he was offenseless so you might be able to set-up things on. Cloyster you just said he was bad (even if this isn't true because he offers unique possibilities), so he won't cause you problems. What else ? I don't even know.

 

This metagame is quite poor so if we start to ban lots of mechanisms (baton pass, spikes, then status because it forces us to play a healbeller that we don't want to play... ... ...), this will become worse

Its not hard to set up spikes against someone. Even with the epunches skarm can come in on many physical attackers and set up spikes one at a time, so can fortress. I didnt say cloy was "bad" i said he was outclassed by fortress. Althought at least cloy isnt as much of set up bait so i may have been wrong about that (he still doesnt have as stronk of defenses". In a sense if you arent running a spinner then all they need to do is get in 2-3 times and set up spikes and they have essentually done their job. Sure magneton reks them but w/o a spinner then you still will have 1 layer of spikes on the field for the rest of the match, 

 

Also, just throwing out another thought, even if there are more spinners than spikers you are never forced to run a spiker. That is a choice you make bc either a spiker fits on ur team or you are building a team that could use spike support. Where if you dont want to risk spikes on the field you HAVE to choose from the few viable spinners we have and then build a team while working around that. Imo it just seems like it makes team building very limiting. But then again stall is a suffering play style right now and spikes can help mend that.

[XPLOZ]

Its not hard to set up spikes against someone. Even with the epunches skarm can come in on many physical attackers and set up spikes one at a time, so can fortress. I didnt say cloy was "bad" i said he was outclassed by fortress. Althought at least cloy isnt as much of set up bait so i may have been wrong about that (he still doesnt have as stronk of defenses". In a sense if you arent running a spinner then all they need to do is get in 2-3 times and set up spikes and they have essentually done their job. Sure magneton reks them but w/o a spinner then you still will have 1 layer of spikes on the field for the rest of the match, 

 

Also, just throwing out another thought, even if there are more spinners than spikers you are never forced to run a spiker. That is a choice you make bc either a spiker fits on ur team or you are building a team that could use spike support. Where if you dont want to risk spikes on the field you HAVE to choose from the few viable spinners we have and then build a team while working around that. Imo it just seems like it makes team building very limiting. But then again stall is a suffering play style right now and spikes can help mend that.

 

This isn't as easy as you say.

 

First let's talk about foretress : this pokemon can be a nest for the opponent. I'm just thinking about 2 things right now but i'm sure we can find more : Gengar and Charizard. Gengar can easily come very safely and set-up a substitute. We all know that  this S rank behind a sub can be fatal if well played. Charizard can have 1 free turn to set-up with belly drum, which can destroy a whole team (this is what happened at a final of an official tournament not a long time ago). You are going to say : "what if foretress runs rock slide". Mmmh true, be sure to check it before, but it's very uncommon because not having explosion gives your opponent huge opportunities, as foretress can't phase anything. Just 1 example, setting-up a huge Heracross...

 

Secondly, let's talk about Skarmony : I played him a lot so i can confirm you that you can't set-up spikes each turn as you want. Just because of 1 uncompetitive stuff : Magnenoob. While playing skarm, you are always fearing Magnenoob. A decent player won't try to set-up spikes at the first time he brings skarmony ingame. He will mainly WW to check a bit the opponent team (Team preview ?). And a decent user or Magnenoob won't bring Magnenoob the first time he sees Skarm. So checking 1 time isn't enough. Only one bad predict will be enough to get trapped, and almost lose the game. I agree that if your opponent doesn't have Magneton, you are a lot safer, but if he has and traps you, you will have big difficulties to come back into the battle (That's why ability trappers are so uncompetitive).

Edited March 4, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Shinensan]

To bring this topic back a little: a while back someone posted a list of viable and unviable spikers (both ou and uu). Which kind of made me wonder: what about Glalie?

 

I mean, sure, it's no way as bulky as most spikers are - although flat 80/80/80 defences leave it without gaping openings like with Skarmory or Forretress. Also, its typing is BAD with a big B in the bonnet. But... Let's consider the meta. With a certain magnetic a-hole running rampant, both Skarmory and Forretress struggle tu put up more than one layer of spikes without getting caught and obliterated. Along comes this little snowball, which doesn't give a damn. It might actually throw up a respectable EQ in its own right, which paired with amazing offensive Ice coverage might force quite a few switches. Let's say a set like this:

 

Spikes

Earthquake

Ice Beam

Explosion

 

With a 252 HP/252 Def (or maybe a couple of points thrown into Spd to outrun some threats) it should be quite capable of taking a hit or two from the physical side and still do its thing - set up a layer or two and take a threat down with it. I thought of this set as a kind of suicide lead, what do you think?

[ShucklePwnz]

To bring this topic back a little: a while back someone posted a list of viable and unviable spikers (both ou and uu). Which kind of made me wonder: what about Glalie?

 

I mean, sure, it's no way as bulky as most spikers are - although flat 80/80/80 defences leave it without gaping openings like with Skarmory or Forretress. Also, its typing is BAD with a big B in the bonnet. But... Let's consider the meta. With a certain magnetic a-hole running rampant, both Skarmory and Forretress struggle tu put up more than one layer of spikes without getting caught and obliterated. Along comes this little snowball, which doesn't give a damn. It might actually throw up a respectable EQ in its own right, which paired with amazing offensive Ice coverage might force quite a few switches. Let's say a set like this:

 

Spikes

Earthquake

Ice Beam

Explosion

 

With a 252 HP/252 Def (or maybe a couple of points thrown into Spd to outrun some threats) it should be quite capable of taking a hit or two from the physical side and still do its thing - set up a layer or two and take a threat down with it. I thought of this set as a kind of suicide lead, what do you think?

Well if you want a spiker which doesn't get trapped by Magneton you just run Cloyster in OU, besides Magneton is not THAT common.

 

I think Glalie might be able to do it's job in UU, but the lack of either a high base stat of HP, Defense or SpDefense and resistences, it's not easy to switch it in.

I have seen people run Cacturne on UU and it did pretty fine, but that's because it has resistences against common types in UU like Water, Grass and Psychic.

[DoubleJ]

We have enough spinning. And spinblocking is worse than it was before post-Pursuit buff. Gengar may now be an S rank dominant force, but it's not like it spinblocks stuff like Starmie that effectively anyway (although admittedly less RS Starmie run Psychic, I guess.) 

 

 

I personally would argue that Gengar spin-blocks Starmie quite well. Not only does it have a move that will OHKO Starmie after one layer of spikes (unless 252/252+ SpDef Starmie), but it also outspeeds most Starmie variants in the game today considering they are prone to run bulk to stall out certain attacks with recover and also live a Pursuit to recover another day. 

 

Not only this, but you brought up an excellent point about Starmie not carrying STAB Psychic either, the only move that has a chance of OHKO'ing Gengar in it's repetoir. 

 

So either you run 252+ Speed to beat Gengar and carry STAB Psychic, or you predict a Gengar bring in with Surf for a chance at a 2HKO if you're faster. Unfortunately you will need to have 252 SpAtt to 2HKO Gengar with either Tbolt or Ice Beam, and that is still a huge longshot. 

 

So in my assessment it's pretty damn close to being safe for Gengar to switch in on Starmie when spikes are up and if you get hit, well shit, you scare Starmie away if it's slow and Pain Split against a healthier foe later for all that health back. 

 

tl;dr Gengar is a fucking monster. 

 

 

EDIT: Also, if you run a fast somewhat bulky Gengar, that STAB Psychic might not kill you either. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Shinensan]

Well if you want a spiker which doesn't get trapped by Magneton you just run Cloyster in OU, besides Magneton is not THAT common.

 

I think Glalie might be able to do it's job in UU, but the lack of either a high base stat of HP, Defense or SpDefense and resistences, it's not easy to switch it in.

I have seen people run Cacturne on UU and it did pretty fine, but that's because it has resistences against common types in UU like Water, Grass and Psychic.

 

Switching in is not quite the point of a suicide lead. It's supposed to, well, do its thing and die afterwards. Sure, might seem like a waste of slot (particularly if you don't run something to spinblock) - but with explosion and its coverage it shouldn't go down alone.

 

The problem about Cloyster is pretty much the same as with Skarmory - a tiny nudge from the special side and it goes down like a ton of bricks. Even more so, since its typing is almost as bad as Glalie's, with Electric being a big "HIT ME" sign for any special attacker worth its salt. Dat coverage tho.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Shinensan