[OU Discussion] Gengar

[YagamiNoir]

Well there wasn't much to add to your post Robo since I didn't disagree with it.

 

 

The thing is that because of it's versatility, you have the option of running many sets which defeats the entire purpose of preparing a counter for the set you've scouted. 

 

Snorlax isn't a must on every team. It's a great pokemon to use but if you want a special wall, porygon, hypno (wish), blissey are all good options with better recovery than snorlax. Main downfall for these is the lack of offense.

 

 

The thing is two or more pokemon will not have entirely different movesets/roles. Weezing will always counter a heracross no matter what kind of set it runs, vaporeon always counters arcanine no matter what set it runs. These will always be there. Talking about the game isn't all about being safe switches is a pointless statement, really.

 

Misdreavus is pretty amazing. The only thing bad about it compared to gengar is the lack of wow and offense but unlike gengar it has access to calm mind making the set stronger if you can take out the special wall.

 

How can you say that the game shouldn't rely on walls switching on sweepers? Because that is what a wall is supposed to do. Gengar is no way near the same as compared to other pokemon with similar base stats because of it's typing. So many immunities/resistances can make it a very good tank. 

 

Keeping gengar in order to make the meta more diverse is a bad reason to keep it, imo.

 

 

Thank you Noad. Gunthug pointed out the same earlier and I wanted to edit it out myself but I forgot to, since I was in the middle of quoting so many people. Thanks again.

 

 

Pre-fucking-cisely. Someone asked me earlier about what to expect when a Gengar is at low health. The point is, I don't fucking know. It could either destiny bond, explode or painsplit, no one knows. It's speed, power, typing is all pretty good and while it need not necessarily sweep, it's capable of cripping your team in such a way that almost any sweeper/choice bander can finish the job.

 

 

A very fair point as well because this would make choice banded normal users incredibly powerful, so I can understand the need for gengar.

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

So what do we do :P

I'll first emphasize on the underlined and bolded statement and concur that I disagree with it entirely, if not bluntly professing how wrong such a statement is. The game isn't about safe switches isn't a pointless statement, it is a fact that's prominent in any offensive metagame where offense is at times, if not commonly, countered by it's own kin being offense itself. You cannot expect every Pokemon in the game to have a safe switch in, nor expect anything that doesn't have a safe switch in to be banned to the void simply because that's how a healthy metagame should be. Risk can be a healthy, if not an essential factor, especially in games such as this, that, usually revolve around skill and prediction, akin to how one would pick plays in a game of chess. 

 

The game shouldn't always rely on walls in response to offensive sweepers. Sure, that is the role of a wall, but you can't deny or say that it's wrong how an offensive approach is sometimes the more reliable way in beating offense. The way you speak of it, Marowak seems to fit that and should be Uber, since there aren't a lot, if any, effective walls for it. Yes, Gengar's typing is invaluable, it gives it a lot of switch ins and advantages, but I personally don't think it's indestructible.

 

You don't prepare something specifically for Gengar -- a team composition usually has enough room to take the appropriate move depending on the most appropriate prediction. This isn't to insult your way of team building -- but rather your impossible demand of finding something that completely counters it and saying that it's unhealthy without it when that not necessarily defines a banning criteria. 

[Vaeldras]

 

You don't prepare something specifically for Gengar -- a team composition usually has enough room to take the appropriate move depending on the most appropriate prediction.  

 

So much this, thats' why it doesn't affect team building, only movesets.

I agree with the whole post, but this is what i consider the most relevant part.

 

[spoiler]Btw, do you still ev train? sorry, but i never managed to find out what your ig name is [/spoiler]

[NikhilR]

I'll first emphasize on the underlined and bolded statement and concur that I disagree with it entirely, if not bluntly professing how wrong such a statement is. The game isn't about safe switches isn't a pointless statement, it is a fact that's prominent in any offensive metagame where offense is at times, if not commonly, countered by it's own kin being offense itself. You cannot expect every Pokemon in the game to have a safe switch in, nor expect anything that doesn't have a safe switch in to be banned to the void simply because that's how a healthy metagame should be. Risk can be a healthy, if not an essential factor, especially in games such as this, that, usually revolve around skill and prediction, akin to how one would pick plays in a game of chess. 

 

The game shouldn't always rely on walls in response to offensive sweepers. Sure, that is the role of a wall, but you can't deny or say that it's wrong how an offensive approach is sometimes the more reliable way in beating offense. The way you speak of it, Marowak seems to fit that and should be Uber, since there aren't a lot, if any, effective walls for it. Yes, Gengar's typing is invaluable, it gives it a lot of switch ins and advantages, but I personally don't think it's indestructible.

 

You don't prepare something specifically for Gengar -- a team composition usually has enough room to take the appropriate move depending on the most appropriate prediction. This isn't to insult your way of team building -- but rather your impossible demand of finding something that completely counters it and saying that it's unhealthy without it when that not necessarily defines a banning criteria. 

 

The whole part regarding the metagame and switch-ins, I disagree with it because it's my perspective. Continuing to discuss that would imo, not lead to anywhere. I believe in a metagame where we can have safe switch ins for almost every pokemon.

 

When something is usually threatening, my approach towards team building will always be to handle that threat. When I can't foresee what my threat is going to be, it does affect team building slightly. 

 

So much this, thats' why it doesn't affect team building, only movesets.

I agree with the whole post, but this is what i consider the most relevant part.

 

[spoiler]Btw, do you still ev train? sorry, but i never managed to find out what your ig name is [/spoiler]

 

Can you elaborate a bit on your bolded statement?

[YagamiNoir]

The whole part regarding the metagame and switch-ins, I disagree with it because it's my perspective. Continuing to discuss that would imo, not lead to anywhere. I believe in a metagame where we can have safe switch ins for almost every pokemon.

 

When something is usually threatening, my approach towards team building will always be to handle that threat. When I can't foresee what my threat is going to be, it does affect team building slightly. 

 

 

Can you elaborate a bit on your bolded statement?

As you wish on that, then.

 

If a Pokemon is so strong that the team has to centralize to incredibly and unhealthy significant means to counter it alone, that defines a Pokemon that is unhealthy for the metagame. Meanwhile, Gengar is being centralized to be used often due to Heracross and Snorlax instead of it centralizing stuff to be used, again acknowledging that Gengar would perhaps still be used as often without them. When you look at it, what Pokemon have been centralized to deal with Gengar? To my opinion, Gengar does not fall under that -- again, walling Gengar does not come out of a good team solely, but the intelligence and skill in know what switch in would be the less risky and most rewarding, something that isn't unacheiveable.

 

As long as you still believe in the premise of "everything should be safe", I shall stop here, since this will not go anywhere, although it was nice in that we got to do this discussion civilly. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[NikhilR]

As you wish on that, then.

 

If a Pokemon is so strong that the team has to centralize to incredibly and unhealthy significant means to counter it alone, that defines a Pokemon that is unhealthy for the metagame. Meanwhile, Gengar is being centralized to be used often due to Heracross and Snorlax instead of it centralizing stuff to be used, again acknowledging that Gengar would perhaps still be used as often without them. When you look at it, what Pokemon have been centralized to deal with Gengar? To my opinion, Gengar does not fall under that -- again, walling Gengar does not come out of a good team solely, but the intelligence and skill in know what switch in would be the less risky and most rewarding, something that isn't unacheiveable.

 

As long as you still believe in the premise of "everything should be safe", I shall stop here, since this will not go anywhere, although it was nice in that we got to do this discussion civilly. 

 

Yeah, basically I just feel that Snorlax, Heracross and Gengar are all equally deserving of a ban. 

 

And no worries, glad to discuss with you about anything any time. 

[Vaeldras]

The whole part regarding the metagame and switch-ins, I disagree with it because it's my perspective. Continuing to discuss that would imo, not lead to anywhere. I believe in a metagame where we can have safe switch ins for almost every pokemon.

 

When something is usually threatening, my approach towards team building will always be to handle that threat. When I can't foresee what my threat is going to be, it does affect team building slightly. 

 

 

Can you elaborate a bit on your bolded statement?

 

As i already said in my previous post, the lack of a real counter, due to gengar's immense versatility make picking a pokemon just for the sake of stopping it completely pointless.

Crunch and pursuit are not specifically for gengar, so one could just build his team without even taking gengar in consideration.

 

Also "The game shouldn't always rely on walls in response to offensive sweepers. Sure, that is the role of a wall, but you can't deny or say that it's wrong how an offensive approach is sometimes the more reliable way in beating offense"

 

The fact that you can't stop something with a wall, doesn't mean that you can't stop it with something else.

Aerodactyl, jolteon (if your hp isn't grass or if you predict disable with sub), alakazam, starmie and maybe something else, if one of these is already on the field, gengar won't be able to do shit to them.

 

Not to mention how shadowball isn't in most of the sets i've seen, which makes stuff like alakazam able to switch in, take a hit, and then ohko it (assuming you know gengar isn't running sball, that is).

 

In a meta where a lot of people are still running 4-5 walls, of course gengar is so powerful, it's faster than everything, it can cripple those walls and maybe heal with pain split.

Also having a ph oriented meta doesn't help, since gengar can't really cripple any sp hitting poke.(thunder wave? anyway, stuff like jolteon and kazam can make good use of a lum berry).

 

I like gengar, and i wish we had more pokemon like it, i'd rather lose because of a misprediction, rather than being afk'd, but that's just a personal opinion.

[NikhilR]

As i already said in my previous post, the lack of a real counter, due to gengar's immense versatility make picking a pokemon just for the sake of stopping it completely pointless.

Crunch and pursuit are not specifically for gengar, so one could just build his team without even taking gengar in consideration.

 

Also "The game shouldn't always rely on walls in response to offensive sweepers. Sure, that is the role of a wall, but you can't deny or say that it's wrong how an offensive approach is sometimes the more reliable way in beating offense"

 

The fact that you can't stop something with a wall, doesn't mean that you can't stop it with something else.

Aerodactyl, jolteon (if your hp isn't grass or if you predict disable with sub), alakazam, starmie and maybe something else, if one of these is already on the field, gengar won't be able to do shit to them.

 

Not to mention how shadowball isn't in most of the sets i've seen, which makes stuff like alakazam able to switch in, take a hit, and then ohko it (assuming you know gengar isn't running sball, that is).

 

In a meta where a lot of people are still running 4-5 walls, of course gengar is so powerful, it's faster than everything, it can cripple those walls and maybe heal with pain split.

Also having a ph oriented meta doesn't help, since gengar can't really cripple any sp hitting poke.(thunder wave? anyway, stuff like jolteon and kazam can make good use of a lum berry).

 

I like gengar, and i wish we had more pokemon like it, i'd rather lose because of a misprediction, rather than being afk'd, but that's just a personal opinion.

 

So you're saying that trying to find a counter to a pokemon that is considered a top threat is pointless because it can't be countered?

 

Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Starmie, Alakazam are no way near safe switch ins. All this assumption of gengar not running shadowball can't be taken into consideration because until you face the gengar, you won't know. And assuming it has shadowball, then your starmie and zam can't switch in. And even if it is non shadowball,  starmie, zam, aero and jolt still take a lot of dmg in the switch ins. Ultimately they will force a switch out and all of those pokemon have hard counters which makes it very easy for the gengar user to switch out and come in whenever they want.

 

Your answer to dealing with gengar is by running faster pokemon to beat it which in other words is almost running a full team of sweepers. It's almost like saying a choiceband dragonite (if it doesn't use espeed) or salamence is not that strong and beatable if you run starmie, zam, jolteon all with hp ice. Ofc I know that the ban characteristics for the above is not the same because they could sweep through the meta but I'm just trying to explain to you what your answer sounds like.

Edited March 25, 2015 by NikhilR

[OldKeith]

I think bulky Arcanine is a pretty good switch into Gengar. It cripples its Focus Punch set, if it runs mixed. After the Intimidate drop, you can go to Blissey safely.

[Vaeldras]

So you're saying that trying to find a counter to a pokemon that is considered a top threat is pointless because it can't be countered?

 

Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Starmie, Alakazam are no way near safe switch ins. All this assumption of gengar not running shadowball can't be taken into consideration because until you face the gengar, you won't know. And assuming it has shadowball, then your starmie and zam can't switch in. And even if it is non shadowball,  starmie, zam, aero and jolt still take a lot of dmg in the switch ins. Ultimately they will force a switch out and all of those pokemon have hard counters which makes it very easy for the gengar user to switch out and come in whenever they want.

 

Your answer to dealing with gengar is by running faster pokemon to beat it which in other words is almost running a full team of sweepers. It's almost like saying a choiceband dragonite (if it doesn't use espeed) or salamence is not that strong and beatable if you run starmie, zam, jolteon all with hp ice. Ofc I know that the ban characteristics for the above is not the same because they could sweep through the meta but I'm just trying to explain to you what your answer sounds like.

 

How does my answer sound anything like that? i never stated that those pokemon were safe switch in, i'm just saying that we have pokemon that can reliably force it out, nor i ever said you're supposed to pretend gengar doesn't have shadow ball, i was just pointing out how most people are overlooking that move unless they want to run a full sp att set.

Ofc you're not supposed to run a full team of sp sweepers, but having at least one (because let's face it, most teams won't have any unless it's gengar) will give you something able to reliably check it in a lot of occasions, something that physical hitters are less likely to do, since gengar is definitely better at dealing with those.

 

To sum up this point: Do you want something able to take a hit without getting crippled to scare it off at least once and POSSIBLY take it down? (which is the closest thing to a counter gengar has that i know of): Go for a special sweeper.

 

This isn't a solution, it's far from being one, just a personal consideration, the safest way i can think of to approach gengar, since what seems to trouble you is the lack of a safe way to deal with it.

 

We have a shitload of pokemon who could POTENTIALLY take gengar down in a 1v1 (always keeping in mind that pokemon is not about "1v1's"), both gengar and those pokemon are at risk when you're still scouting.

But since gengar usually aims to fulfill a very specific role (which is never that of taking care of sp sweepers reliably, it can't), sending out your sp sweeper is likely to be a good way to scout a move and stop gengar's momentum.

A sp sweeper can afford to be at low health while still being effective most of the times (worst case scenario ofc, predicting  will o wisp is not THAThard).

 

 

So you're saying that trying to find a counter to a pokemon that is considered a top threat is pointless because it can't be countered?

 

I'm saying that trying to find a counter to a pokemon that doesn't obviously have any is a waste of time, especially when you don't need to have one to win a match against a gengar user.

 

But while gengar doesn't affect your team building, it will affect the way you play, just like dugtrio.

I wish we had more pokemon like gengar, in order to make it less relevant, but has of now i have to admit it gives you the advantage to put some pressure (not as much as heracross doe) on your opponent in a way that i don't like.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you don't seem to like this kind of pressure at all, while on the other hand, i don't like the fact the gengar is currently our only pokemon able to do that, and that makes it almost too good not to use.

Just almost imo, since it's not the pokemon itself, it's just his versatility and the way it fits perfectly in every team.

 

Edit for keith: I don't see arcanine taking a shadow ball on the switch too well, which is the move i always use since it's so common.

A sp defense drop, and you're forced to switch again.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Vaeldras

[OldKeith]

I don't see arcanine taking a shadow ball on the switch too well, which is the move i always use since it's so common.

A sp defense drop, and you're forced to switch again.

 

Shadow Ball will never do over 45% to a bulky Arca. And sure, while you still do not know Gengar's moves, you should switch around, and after that it becomes manageable. The point is to lower the attack with intimidate so you can go to your special wall, safely.

Edited March 25, 2015 by OldKeith

[NikhilR]

How does my answer sound anything like that? i never stated that those pokemon were safe switch in, i'm just saying that we have pokemon that can reliably force it out, nor i ever said you're supposed to pretend gengar doesn't have shadow ball, i was just pointing out how most people are overlooking that move unless they want to run a full sp att set.

Ofc you're not supposed to run a full team of sp sweepers, but having at least one (because let's face it, most teams won't have any unless it's gengar) will give you something able to reliably check it in a lot of occasions, something that physical hitters are less likely to do, since gengar is definitely better at dealing with those.

 

To sum up this point: Do you want something able to take a hit without getting crippled to scare it off at least once and POSSIBLY take it down? (which is the closest thing to a counter gengar has that i know of): Go for a special sweeper.

 

This isn't a solution, it's far from being one, just a personal consideration, the safest way i can think of to approach gengar, since what seems to trouble you is the lack of a safe way to deal with it.

 

We have a shitload of pokemon who could POTENTIALLY take gengar down in a 1v1 (always keeping in mind that pokemon is not about "1v1's"), both gengar and those pokemon are at risk when you're still scouting.

But since gengar usually aims to fulfill a very specific role (which is never that of taking care of sp sweepers reliably, it can't), sending out your sp sweeper is likely to be a good way to scout a move and stop gengar's momentum.

A sp sweeper can afford to be at low health while still being effective most of the times (worst case scenario ofc, predicting  will o wisp is not THAThard).

 

 

So you're saying that trying to find a counter to a pokemon that is considered a top threat is pointless because it can't be countered?

 

I'm saying that trying to find a counter to a pokemon that doesn't obviously have any is a waste of time, especially when you don't need to have one to win a match against a gengar user.

 

But while gengar doesn't affect your team building, it will affect the way you play, just like dugtrio.

I wish we had more pokemon like gengar, in order to make it less relevant, but has of now i have to admit it gives you the advantage to put some pressure (not as much as heracross doe) on your opponent in a way that i don't like.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you don't seem to like this kind of pressure at all, while on the other hand, i don't like the fact the gengar is currently our only pokemon able to do that, and that makes it almost too good not to use.

Just almost imo, since it's not the pokemon itself, it's just his versatility and the way it fits perfectly in every team.

 

Edit for keith: I don't see arcanine taking a shadow ball on the switch too well, which is the move i always use since it's so common.

A sp defense drop, and you're forced to switch again.

 

If starmie, zam, aero, jolteon are not switch ins, then how do you force something out without switching in? For me forcing something out would mean switching in with ease and ohko-ing the opponent.

 

 

"To sum up this point: Do you want something able to take a hit without getting crippled to scare it off at least once and POSSIBLY take it down? (which is the closest thing to a counter gengar has that i know of): Go for a special sweeper.

 

Your sweepers like jolteon, aero still fail to accomplish this since shadowball/tbolt/rockslide will always be 2hkos. And telling someone to run Alakazam which is terrible in the current meta is a bad example.

 

" I'm saying that trying to find a counter to a pokemon that doesn't obviously have any is a waste of time, especially when you don't need to have one to win a match against a gengar user."

 

The fact that there is no counter is what makes it even more scary and completely different and unique to almost all the pokemon in OU. And yes you need one atmost to win a match against a Gengar user. Again I repeat, if you have played some of the skillful players like Bowser, Keith (the only players I know who use gengar quite well) , you'd know how devastating it can be.

 

It's more of how my opponent has an unfair advantage rather than pressure. Having team preview and with a gengar around, it would make me re-think my moves to not allow gengar to switch in but it wouldn't tell me what to expect either but when it's a dugtrio you're well aware of what's going to happen.

 

When something is just too good to not use, it almost sounds like its ban worthy (key word being almost).

Edited March 25, 2015 by NikhilR

[Vaeldras]

Shadow Ball will never do over 45% to a bulky Arca. And sure, while you still do not know Gengar's moves, you should switch around, and after that it becomes manageable. The point is to lower the attack with intimidate so you can go to your special wall, safely.

 

I 2hko'd arcanine thanks to the sdef drop yesterday, so lemme do some calcs k? (i don't even know what the common bulkanine ev spread is)

 

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 159-187 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Like i said, the sp def drop would 2hko it. It also needs to be at full health.

Nonetheless, it's still a very good combo, since shadowball still isn't likely to come, especially considering what sub punch is aimed to take down: snorlax.

 

 

[spoiler]If you use snorlax, arcanine and blissey on the same team you have no dignity [/spoiler]

[Vaeldras]

 

If starmie, zam, aero, jolteon are not switch ins, then how do you force something out without switching in? For me forcing something out would mean switching in with ease and ohko-ing the opponent.

 

 

"To sum up this point: Do you want something able to take a hit without getting crippled to scare it off at least once and POSSIBLY take it down? (which is the closest thing to a counter gengar has that i know of): Go for a special sweeper.

 

Your special sweeper like jolteon, aero still fail to accomplish this since shadowball/tbolt/rockslide will always be 2hkos.

 

" I'm saying that trying to find a counter to a pokemon that doesn't obviously have any is a waste of time, especially when you don't need to have one to win a match against a gengar user."

 

The fact that there is no counter is what makes it even more scary and completely different and unique to almost all the pokemon in OU. And yes you need one atmost to win a match against a Gengar user. Again I repeat, if you have played some of the skillful players like Bowser, Keith (the only players I know who use gengar quite well) who usually use a Gengar, you'd know how devastating it can be.

 

It's more of how my opponent has an unfair advantage more than pressure. Having team preview and with a gengar around, it make me re-think my moves to not allow gengar to switch in but it wouldn't tell me what to expect either but when it's a dugtrio you're well aware of what's going to happen.

 

When something is just too good to not use, it almost sounds like its ban worthy (key word being almost).

 

 

Well, aero can ohko gengar with crunch unless extremely bulky variants. Dunno what i was thinking when i said jolteon could come in  :rolleyes:

It's not that they're not switch ins at all, they are not safe switch ins. Starmie fears every single att move gengar has, but statuses won't bother it and psychic is very likely to 1hko it.

Kazam, only fears shadow ball, but if you pair it with a lum berry it's a very good switch in, since predicting a wow allows stuff like curselax and blissey to come in.

Odds are kazam will be a good switch, even though it's still risky. But maybe running kazam just to check gengar is too much.

No doubt gengar is devastating, i've seen it and used it  lot myself.

I do agree with you, the pressure you put on your opponent can be considered unfair, unless your opponent has gengar too.

That's why i wish we had something similiar, as of now it's one of a kind.

It's not broken, not uncompetitve, unfair is probably the most fitting term.

[fredrichnietze]

i have a question. since the arguments seem to be all over the place, is gengar being looked at for support characteristics or offensive characteristics?

[spoiler]

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. 

[/spoiler]

or centralizing reasons?

[spoiler]

A Pokemon is Uber if, in a given metagame, it is a dominating force and dictates playstyles to such an extent as to be majorly centralizing.

[/spoiler]

since each individual reason has different arguments.

if something is uber for support then you should explain what support it gives and to who. how this is support is broken and what ways are there to stop it.

if something is uber for offensive characteristics you should explain what pokemon it can come in on. what set sweeps a majority of the meta game, and what counters & checks are there that can stop it. dont stop at JUST the counters thou. marrowak has very very few counters, but a large amount of checks that can revenge kill him which is why he isnt uber.

if something is uber for centralizing reasons, you should argue the high usage. how the pokemon forces you to bring certain pokemon or not bring certain pokemon. how other very high useage pokemon are inferior EXCEPT that they counter the one pokemon you are trying to get banned.

 

i have not read this whole thread as i have been focusing on UU but at a glance it was not clear as to what characteristic is ban worthy on gengar. other then obvs not defensive.

[Gunthug]

i have a question. since the arguments seem to be all over the place, is gengar being looked at for support characteristics or offensive characteristics?

[spoiler]

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. 

[/spoiler]

or centralizing reasons?

[spoiler]

A Pokemon is Uber if, in a given metagame, it is a dominating force and dictates playstyles to such an extent as to be majorly centralizing.

[/spoiler]

since each individual reason has different arguments.

if something is uber for support then you should explain what support it gives and to who. how this is support is broken and what ways are there to stop it.

if something is uber for offensive characteristics you should explain what pokemon it can come in on. what set sweeps a majority of the meta game, and what counters & checks are there that can stop it. dont stop at JUST the counters thou. marrowak has very very few counters, but a large amount of checks that can revenge kill him which is why he isnt uber.

if something is uber for centralizing reasons, you should argue the high usage. how the pokemon forces you to bring certain pokemon or not bring certain pokemon. how other very high useage pokemon are inferior EXCEPT that they counter the one pokemon you are trying to get banned.

 

i have not read this whole thread as i have been focusing on UU but at a glance it was not clear as to what characteristic is ban worthy on gengar. other then obvs not defensive.

Based on what I've seen, the thread was created to allow for community input as to which specific characteristic gengar SHOULD be suspected under. Gengar represents one of those pokemon where it's not entirely clear which uber criteria it may or may not meet, so I think the starting point of this discussion has been to put all we know about gengar on the table and kind of see where it lies

 

Personally, if I had to choose one, I think it fits under support the most, as the holes gengar can consistently put in other teams (as they attempt to scout its moveset) makes the opposing team considerably easier to break through for the gengar user. Do I think it fits the criteria enough to be banned? Not as of yet, but we're still relatively early in the discussion

[Robofiend]

I think that if we're gonna ban Gengar we should ban Snorlax first and re-evaluate. I feel like part of the reason it's so OU is that it's the only special sweeper that Snorlax doesn't absolutely shit on.

[DoubleJ]

Shadow Ball will never do over 45% to a bulky Arca. And sure, while you still do not know Gengar's moves, you should switch around, and after that it becomes manageable. The point is to lower the attack with intimidate so you can go to your special wall, safely.

 

lel, special defense drop oh shit

[OldKeith]

lel, special defense drop oh shit

 

Who cares about the drop? It does not make a difference if it happens or not. The purpose is to intimidate and then safely go to any special wall.

[DoubleJ]

Who cares about the drop? It does not make a difference if it happens or not. The purpose is to intimidate and then safely go to any special wall.

 

geez keith, i'm blocking you from getting a free morning sun on my predicted switch, but i guess now i'll just go straight into my dugtrio and wreck your day

[OldKeith]

Well then, maybe my play style is not good enough to keep up with the changing meta. :]

[DoubleJ]

Well then, maybe my play style is not good enough to keep up with the changing meta. :]

 

I feel like there is something implied here... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... you must not play much do you =)

[SpartacusGD]

Gengar is strong and threatening but not worth banning. Bow

[NikhilR]

I think that if we're gonna ban Gengar we should ban Snorlax first and re-evaluate. I feel like part of the reason it's so OU is that it's the only special sweeper that Snorlax doesn't absolutely shit on.

 

Get at it Robo. Ban heracross and snorlax. I think enough has been said in their respective threads to make those two ban worthy.

 

-------------------------------

 

@Fred, it's really hard to say under what characteristic Gengar should be banned. Yes it's very centralizing but that isn't the just the sole reason I want it banned. The fact that it can be offense-oriented and offer support at the same time is what is scary. Its dual roles. 

[Robofiend]

Get at it Robo. Ban heracross and snorlax. 

 

ye i know right  :P

[Excelimpulse]

pretty sure heracross and snorkax discussion don't belong in this thread. And the fact that you bring them up and they all threaten each other but you want to ban them....I'm beyond confused and don't take anything serious anymore. There are no ways to say any of them yet to meet the banning criteria. They are close but Did not exceed it.