[OU Discussion] Gengar

[NikhilR]

Sigh, when will Excel stop uguu riding his mixed metagross in almost every post?

 

My opinion :

 

We can all agree that both Gengar and Snorlax are very strong in our meta. Therefore, we can see them a bit everywhere.

But there is a little difference : one seems unhealthy for our meta whereas one seems healthy. I think you guessed that the healthy one i am talking about is gengar. I already said why Snorlax seems unhealthy especially in the current meta on the other thread, have a look at it if you want.

 

Firstable, i'd like to talk about the healthiness of gengar in our meta. As you noticed it in that thread, gengar can do things other pokemons can't do. In fact, his wonderful immunities allows him to disturb opponent's sweep, mainly choice banders, who have to make better anticipations not to let an easy setup for gengar. They also have to think more about their moveset, to cover everything they want. Add to this supporting moves like WoW, PS, or disable, and Gengar becomes really versatile. But have a look at our meta : physical sweepers are ruling it like never. Actually, a basic player who comes full physical offensive on you without trying to make a balanced team can win (> removing snorlax will rebalance things a bit). Without gengar, it will just become worse because as you said, there isn't any pokemon which can replace it. Also people will just bring explosion teams and piss on everything (yes someone already won an official tourney like that).

 

Secondly, i'd like to talk about gengar's powerness, alone. I think we can say that the most common gengar played atm is the bulky one with moves like WoW / PS and some offensive coverage. This is a bit recent, since the update totally changed the meta. If this is so threatening, why people weren't playing it before ? Just because it cripples a bit his sweeping ability, by no making profit of his very good speed BS or his special atk BS, or even both. This is true that it is is annoying, but how can it sweep the meta like a real Uber can ?

Of course this isn't at all the only viable set of gengar. Let's talk a bit about the most threatening offensive set : the mixed sweeper. Basically, it is played with sub/focus punch/ 1 or 2 offensive special moves (mainly between thunderbolt and shadow ball) and sometimes disable. As a mixed sweeper, his goal is to break walls. And as a mixed sweeper again, he invests in both offensive sides, and doesn't maximize any of them. Moreover, gengar has a bad atk so it needs a quite big investment to hurt with focus punch (2HKO blissey for example). Some people say that disable is OP because it cripples a lot of things that have only one move to touch gengar. This is true, but disable is also less offensive coverage btw. If you are running focus + sub + disable, then you have the place for only 1 offensive direct move. If this is thunderbolt, pokemons which absorb electric moves will like. If this is shadow ball, the problem will be mainly steel types, which can safely put spikes while stalling hard focus punch + shadow, which, I remember you, are not even maximized. If you don't run disable, then gengar will be a lot less versatile, so won't be OP anymore.

 

 

Finally, I'm in favour of a test-ban of Snorlax first to see how the meta evolves, and then the case of gengar can be discussed again.

 

Dusclops, Forretress, Steelix and Metagross are nice resists to explosion teams. Having Gengar around doesn't mean that people will stop using explosion teams. Instead they'll do their best to weaken a gengar with pursuit user and then proceed with the explosion.

 

While sub-disable-fpunch-shadowball may not do much to Steel types, what exactly are steel types gonna do to Gengar? It can disable spikes on forretress which makes fort useless. So then you're forced to switch into a shadowball with a chance of -spdef drop or a focus punch into your lax/blissey. If you don't run disable it doesn't mean gengar doesn't become less versatile, it just means it has another option of hitting you back with lets say taunt or wow or an offensive move.

 

Agreed with the rest of the post.

Edited March 26, 2015 by NikhilR

[codylramey]

And remember how I said gengar can literally keep the big 3 at bay? And I got laughed at...but now gengar can literally stop any cb user? Hhmm....I get what your saying I really do. But I said this 3 months ago and got laughed at.

I honestly agree that gengar is a huge threat but I think we should start looking on how to limit the use of that then or honestly ou will be a borderline tier and a more boring one then it already is with these potential bans in place.

Now that we know that gengar and clops can literally cripple ever cb user I think we should start looking into bringing back some of the bans we have. laugh at me all you want but gengar would keep the dragons from coming in from the potential of icy wind or willo.

This I think will limit the use of gengar and also promote a way to keep them at bay. Gengar can then be limited by ttar but gengar can also threaten it.

Nobody said anything about pursuit. Gengar has options to deal with snorlax, that is why he is chosen over other spcl atkers. Pursuit has nothing to do with it (which any gengar w/o sub disable is weak to too)

[XPLOZ]

Sigh, when will Excel stop uguu riding his mixed metagross in almost every post?

 

 

Dusclops, Forretress, Steelix and Metagross are nice resists to explosion teams. Having Gengar around doesn't mean that people will stop using explosion teams. Instead they'll do their best to weaken a gengar with pursuit user and then proceed with the explosion.

 

While sub-disable-fpunch-shadowball may not do much to Steel types, what exactly are steel types gonna do to Gengar? It can disable spikes on forretress which makes fort useless. So then you're forced to switch into a shadowball with a chance of -spdef drop or a focus punch into your lax/blissey. If you don't run disable it doesn't mean gengar doesn't become less versatile, it just means it has another option of hitting you back with lets say taunt or wow or an offensive move.

 

Agreed with the rest of the post.

 

Well about explosion, this is true that there are already other counters, i don't really know why i said that.

 

About sub + focus + disable + shadow ball, this is true too that foretress won't be able to do much against, unless he runs rock slide (and even with it it'll be hard). Was more thinking about skarm, but then steel type wasn't the good word. After thinking about it, the problem will be more against normal pokes, which can not be touched directly. Also, as it invests in both offensive sides, some bulky pokemons which don't have any x2 weakness can wall it.

 

Just some examples :

 

136 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

136 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 67-79 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 95% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Edited March 26, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Excelimpulse]

Sigh, when will Excel stop uguu riding his mixed metagross in almost every post?


Dusclops, Forretress, Steelix and Metagross are nice resists to explosion teams. Having Gengar around doesn't mean that people will stop using explosion teams. Instead they'll do their best to weaken a gengar with pursuit user and then proceed with the explosion.

While sub-disable-fpunch-shadowball may not do much to Steel types, what exactly are steel types gonna do to Gengar? It can disable spikes on forretress which makes fort useless. So then you're forced to switch into a shadowball with a chance of -spdef drop or a focus punch into your lax/blissey. If you don't run disable it doesn't mean gengar doesn't become less versatile, it just means it has another option of hitting you back with lets say taunt or wow or an offensive move.

Agreed with the rest of the post.

When will you guys stop trying to ban everything? Like honestly there is no reason for 50,000 threads on every pokemon. There should start to actually be a rule for monitors or counsil members to only have 3 discussions every month. And at the end of the month go off of votes.

But I'm sick of coming on to the forums to see everyone trying to find a way to ban everything instead of trying to point out why it shouldn't be.

but obviously you guys forget how bad this game was when snorlax was gone and it would have no correlation to gengar. Gengar is dangerous because of the 10,009movesets it has but once you find it out it's easily stopped. having a full check to a pokemon with that many movesets is almost impossible and should not even come close to warranting a ban. It's way to fragile and can 've revenge killed easily. I'm done arguing on why this shouldn't be banned.

And metagross pursuit and psychic mate that's a steel type you just made fun of me for. Edited March 27, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DrCraig]

When will you guys stop trying to ban everything? Like honestly there is no reason for 50,000 threads on every pokemon. There should start to actually be a rule for monitors or counsil members to only have 3 discussions every month. And at the end of the month go off of votes.

 

The meta is still a baby. In order to make a healthy and enjoyable tier, not every pokemon can stay. Some pokemon are noncompetitive or just too strong. If there are more than 3 pokemon which arise as strong should we just let the 4th run all over the tier? That's illogical. Also, what is the problem with you amd discussion? The community is given a large voice in discussions, what is the problem with that? We can't discuss bans because you don't want to watch us talk?  There have only been 3 bans so far, I think you're being dramatic.

But I'm sick of coming on to the forums to see everyone trying to find a way to ban everything instead of trying to point out why it shouldn't be.

 

We don't come on the forum and say,"Hey I wonder what pokemon I can ban to make the game more shit for everybody." We come on to discuss whether a pokemon meets the criteria for a ban or not.

 

but obviously you guys forget how bad this game was when snorlax was gone and it would have no correlation to gengar. Gengar is dangerous because of the 10,009movesets it has but once you find it out it's easily stopped. having a full check to a pokemon with that many movesets is almost impossible and should not even come close to warranting a ban. It's way to fragile and can 've revenge killed easily. I'm done arguing on why this shouldn't be banned.

 

ehhhh no

 

And metagross pursuit and psychic mate that's a steel type you just made fun of me for.

 

Stop with the Metagross.

Edited March 27, 2015 by DrCraig

[codylramey]

When will you guys stop trying to ban everything? Like honestly there is no reason for 50,000 threads on every pokemon. There should start to actually be a rule for monitors or counsil members to only have 3 discussions every month. And at the end of the month go off of votes.

But I'm sick of coming on to the forums to see everyone trying to find a way to ban everything instead of trying to point out why it shouldn't be.

but obviously you guys forget how bad this game was when snorlax was gone and it would have no correlation to gengar. Gengar is dangerous because of the 10,009movesets it has but once you find it out it's easily stopped. having a full check to a pokemon with that many movesets is almost impossible and should not even come close to warranting a ban. It's way to fragile and can 've revenge killed easily. I'm done arguing on why this shouldn't be banned.

And metagross pursuit and psychic mate that's a steel type you just made fun of me for.

1. Most of the people in this thread dont think that gar should not be banned, have you even read the thread? So stop freaking out

2. The meta is COMPLETLY different now than what it was b4. The reason the meta was bad then was because we got rid of most of the strong, viable physical attackers. That and we got rid of the vaporeon bait that caused vap to constantly come in and take hits. But now we have physical tpunch which makes vap shit itself. Slowbors a bigger problem w/o lax than vap would be (which again vap was the main problem in the old meta w/o lax. That shows you how much the meta has changed) Also we have gardevior which can serve as an extra special wall now.

3. "It can be revenge killed" isnt a very strong argument against a ban. Its actually a goo argument for a banif thats the only way to properly take care of it.

4. Mixed metagross is bad and doesnt even compare to the power of mixed gar. An unprepared team can switch into 3 diff pokes b4 they actuall manage to force mixed gar out. Mixed metagross is only good with HP grass, and even then its just swampert bait. So plz stop with the mixed metagross.

Edited March 27, 2015 by codylramey

[Excelimpulse]

1. Most of the people in this thread dont think that gar should not be banned, have you even read the thread? So stop freaking out
2. The meta is COMPLETLY different now than what it was b4. The reason the meta was bad then was because we got rid of most of the strong, viable physical attackers. That and we got rid of the vaporeon bait that caused vap to constantly come in and take hits. But now we have physical tpunch which makes vap shit itself. Slowbors a bigger problem w/o lax than vap would be (which again vap was the main problem in the old meta w/o lax. That shows you how much the meta has changed) Also we have gardevior which can serve as an extra special wall now.
3. "It can be revenge killed" isnt a very strong argument against a ban. Its actually a goo argument for a banif thats the only way to properly take care of it.
4. Mixed metagross is bad and doesnt even compare to the power of mixed gar. An unprepared team can switch into 3 diff pokes b4 they actuall manage to force mixed gar out. Mixed metagross is only good with HP grass, and even then its just swampert bait. So plz stop with the mixed metagross.

Assuming hp fire is bad rofl. and all I'm saying is snorkax is set up bait for any physical attacker.

And discussions get confusing when you have 15000 threads open. And on top of the comment that thinks it's okay to have more then the bans we already have. You do realize there is only like 20 ou legitamate pokes left. Which means your limiting team building especially when you take out the only pivot offensive poke we have along with even thinking about gengar. That's why banning to me anymore is just killing ou. the team building process gets harder with the less pokes we have. And don't give me that you can use uu crap because mostly all of them are that for a reason.

[DrCraig]

Assuming hp fire is bad rofl. and all I'm saying is snorkax is set up bait for any physical attacker.

And discussions get confusing when you have 15000 threads open. And on top of the comment that thinks it's okay to have more then the bans we already have. You do realize there is only like 20 ou legitamate pokes left. Which means your limiting team building especially when you take out the only pivot offensive poke we have along with even thinking about gengar. That's why banning to me anymore is just killing ou. the team building process gets harder with the less pokes we have. And don't give me that you can use uu crap because mostly all of them are that for a reason.

There have only been 3 bans, it isn't like "Oh no 20 pokemon lets, the survivors, we must savor them." You can use BL pokemon, they aren't banned btw.

 

 

 

When will you guys stop trying to ban everything? Like honestly there is no reason for 50,000 threads on every pokemon. There should start to actually be a rule for monitors or counsil members to only have 3 discussions every month. And at the end of the month go off of votes.

 

The meta is still a baby. In order to make a healthy and enjoyable tier, not every pokemon can stay. Some pokemon are noncompetitive or just too strong. If there are more than 3 pokemon which arise as strong should we just let the 4th run all over the tier? That's illogical. Also, what is the problem with you amd discussion? The community is given a large voice in discussions, what is the problem with that? We can't discuss bans because you don't want to watch us talk?  There have only been 3 bans so far, I think you're being dramatic.

But I'm sick of coming on to the forums to see everyone trying to find a way to ban everything instead of trying to point out why it shouldn't be.

 

We don't come on the forum and say,"Hey I wonder what pokemon I can ban to make the game more shit for everybody." We come on to discuss whether a pokemon meets the criteria for a ban or not.

 

but obviously you guys forget how bad this game was when snorlax was gone and it would have no correlation to gengar. Gengar is dangerous because of the 10,009movesets it has but once you find it out it's easily stopped. having a full check to a pokemon with that many movesets is almost impossible and should not even come close to warranting a ban. It's way to fragile and can 've revenge killed easily. I'm done arguing on why this shouldn't be banned.

 

ehhhh no

 

And metagross pursuit and psychic mate that's a steel type you just made fun of me for.

 

Stop with the Metagross.

 

pls

[Frag]

Gengar is strong, but no banworthy, after you realize the set, isn't that hard stop it.

I'd say gengar it's healthy for our meta, it keep at line things like flail dodrio, linoone and choice eq spam. 

It just punish walls bc as far as i know it only can come in a preddicted immune move or after a  kill [spoiler][/spoiler] , and even if the tank version can take some extra hit's the speed will hurt against faster sweepers anyways. People just fear thing's that aren't easy to wall, imo our meta needs more mixed pokes like this boy.

[NikhilR]

 

Well about explosion, this is true that there are already other counters, i don't really know why i said that.

 

About sub + focus + disable + shadow ball, this is true too that foretress won't be able to do much against, unless he runs rock slide (and even with it it'll be hard). Was more thinking about skarm, but then steel type wasn't the good word. After thinking about it, the problem will be more against normal pokes, which can not be touched directly. Also, as it invests in both offensive sides, some bulky pokemons which don't have any x2 weakness can wall it.

 

Just some examples :

 

136 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

136 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 67-79 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 95% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

 

 

True but Arcanine and Vapo don't wall it. There have been many scenarios where Arcanine switches into a shadowball or sludgebomb and gets a spdef drop or poisoned which forces the arcanine to switch out and get healed. Same goes for vaporeon and with taunt, vapo can't heal the poisoned arcanine or wish back to arcanine. 

 

The only safe attacks for Arcanine to switch into for Gengar are tbolt/wow/focus punch. 

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

For the love of God, can you stop posting Excel if all you're going to do is rage at discussion threads? This is why I didn't want you to post in this thread.

 

Gengar is strong, but no banworthy, after you realize the set, isn't that hard stop it.

I'd say gengar it's healthy for our meta, it keep at line things like flail dodrio, linoone and choice eq spam. 

It just punish walls bc as far as i know it only can come in a preddicted immune move or after a  kill [spoiler][/spoiler] , and even if the tank version can take some extra hit's the speed will hurt against faster sweepers anyways. People just fear thing's that aren't easy to wall, imo our meta needs more mixed pokes like this boy.

I really wish people would stop using the phrase "after you realize the set, it isn't that hard to stop it". How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without taking a lot of damage in the process? By the time you know its set, Gengar would've done its role. 

 

I agree with Gengar's role for beating flail dodrio / linoone and eq spammers but I think we have enough pokes in OU for now that are capable of taking hits. Linoone imo should be banned to Ubers if something happens to Gengar. Flail dodrio would get stopped by metagross/dusclops. I'm sure that Weezing/Slowbro/Vaporeon/Forretress/Cloyster would survive flail at full health. If dodrio doesn't carry low kick (very low chances), it becomes set up bait for Rhydon. 

 

A bulky gengar can switch into so many things and painsplit off the damage. It need not just switch into an immune move. The difference between other sweepers and gengar is that they have hard counters like blissey/snorlax thus making the only role of fast sweepers to only force the switch out but how many times can your fast sweepers come in and take a hit? 

 

You're right about people fearing things that cannot be walled and if we had more mixed pokemon, then things would probably be more balanced but atm we don't.

 

 

Gengar is strong, but no banworthy, after you realize the set, isn't that hard stop it.

I'd say gengar it's healthy for our meta, it keep at line things like flail dodrio, linoone and choice eq spam. 

It just punish walls bc as far as i know it only can come in a preddicted immune move or after a  kill [spoiler][/spoiler] , and even if the tank version can take some extra hit's the speed will hurt against faster sweepers anyways. People just fear thing's that aren't easy to wall, imo our meta needs more mixed pokes like this boy.

 

 

I really wish people would stop using the phrase "after you realize the set, it isn't that hard to stop it". How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without taking a lot of damage in the process? By the time you know its set, Gengar would've done its role. 

 

I agree with Gengar's role for beating flail dodrio / linoone and eq spammers but I think we have enough pokes in OU for now that are capable of taking hits. Linoone imo should be banned to Ubers if something happens to Gengar. Flail dodrio would get stopped by metagross/dusclops. I'm sure that Weezing/Slowbro/Vaporeon/Forretress/Cloyster would survive flail at full health. If dodrio doesn't carry low kick (very low chances), it becomes set up bait for Rhydon. 

 

A bulky gengar can switch into so many things and painsplit off the damage. It need not just switch into an immune move. The difference between other sweepers and gengar is that they have hard counters like blissey/snorlax thus making the only role of fast sweepers to only force the switch out but how many times can your fast sweepers come in and take a hit? 

 

You're right about people fearing things that cannot be walled and if we had more mixed pokemon, then things would probably be more balanced but atm we don't.

Edited March 27, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

True but Arcanine and Vapo don't wall it. There have been many scenarios where Arcanine switches into a shadowball or sludgebomb and gets a spdef drop or poisoned which forces the arcanine to switch out and get healed. Same goes for vaporeon and with taunt, vapo can't heal the poisoned arcanine or wish back to arcanine. 

 

The only safe attacks for Arcanine to switch into for Gengar are tbolt/wow/focus punch. 

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

For the love of God, can you stop posting Excel if all you're going to do is rage at discussion threads? This is why I didn't want you to post in this thread.

 

Gengar is strong, but no banworthy, after you realize the set, isn't that hard stop it.

I'd say gengar it's healthy for our meta, it keep at line things like flail dodrio, linoone and choice eq spam. 

It just punish walls bc as far as i know it only can come in a preddicted immune move or after a  kill [spoiler][/spoiler] , and even if the tank version can take some extra hit's the speed will hurt against faster sweepers anyways. People just fear thing's that aren't easy to wall, imo our meta needs more mixed pokes like this boy.

I really wish people would stop using the phrase "after you realize the set, it isn't that hard to stop it". How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without taking a lot of damage in the process? By the time you know its set, Gengar would've done its role. 

 

I agree with Gengar's role for beating flail dodrio / linoone and eq spammers but I think we have enough pokes in OU for now that are capable of taking hits. Linoone imo should be banned to Ubers if something happens to Gengar. Flail dodrio would get stopped by metagross/dusclops. I'm sure that Weezing/Slowbro/Vaporeon/Forretress/Cloyster would survive flail at full health. If dodrio doesn't carry low kick (very low chances), it becomes set up bait for Rhydon. 

 

A bulky gengar can switch into so many things and painsplit off the damage. It need not just switch into an immune move. The difference between other sweepers and gengar is that they have hard counters like blissey/snorlax thus making the only role of fast sweepers to only force the switch out but how many times can your fast sweepers come in and take a hit? 

 

You're right about people fearing things that cannot be walled and if we had more mixed pokemon, then things would probably be more balanced but atm we don't.

 

 

 

 

I really wish people would stop using the phrase "after you realize the set, it isn't that hard to stop it". How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without taking a lot of damage in the process? By the time you know its set, Gengar would've done its role. 

 

I agree with Gengar's role for beating flail dodrio / linoone and eq spammers but I think we have enough pokes in OU for now that are capable of taking hits. Linoone imo should be banned to Ubers if something happens to Gengar. Flail dodrio would get stopped by metagross/dusclops. I'm sure that Weezing/Slowbro/Vaporeon/Forretress/Cloyster would survive flail at full health. If dodrio doesn't carry low kick (very low chances), it becomes set up bait for Rhydon. 

 

A bulky gengar can switch into so many things and painsplit off the damage. It need not just switch into an immune move. The difference between other sweepers and gengar is that they have hard counters like blissey/snorlax thus making the only role of fast sweepers to only force the switch out but how many times can your fast sweepers come in and take a hit? 

 

You're right about people fearing things that cannot be walled and if we had more mixed pokemon, then things would probably be more balanced but atm we don't.

This is probably the last time I'm going to try convincing you of stuff here. No offense. 

 

They don't wall it, but they are effective against specific sets, and specific moves. Marginally, Vaporeon can play aggressively versus Gengar especially if you can predict that Taunt, in reference to the whole brutal Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Dual STAB set we discussed a while ago. Also, speaking of Vaporeon, with apologies for my possible ignorance, doesn't the thing get Protect on it's sets? Like, you might as well come in, Protect (unless he predicts it and uses Taunt on switch in) and see what he does. I suppose it's possible that some bluffs may happen here and there, but why not, it's pretty effective. Then again I suppose most people don't carry it for I daresay Hidden Power or Gyarados? Still, Protect is still kinda viable on the thing. 

 

 

0 Vaporeon Surf vs. 4/0 Gengar: 74-88 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

"How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without having a really sour impact by the time you do, and it might have already done what it needs by then?" As much as it is again an inexpressible theoretical fact and is entirely dependent on player skill, well, it's like I said -- you kinda have to accept the fact that risks are in a game and something without safe switches isn't necessarily something that is, well -- unhealthy. Again, I probably won't manage to persuade you because you're demanding a metagame that is fully centralized on safe switch ins. The risk is more than most others and is recognizable, and I used to be an advocate for your reasoning last year but eventually shifted it away. You act as if Gengar takes out a Pokemon in two turns or something, which is pretty exaggerative if you ask me. Also, why is only the player dealing with Gengar that's having the risk? Gengar kinda has it's downs after revealing all of it's moves, and it has only room for four moves instead of the entire versatile kit it has. That and Gengar always makes the correct plays for some reason instead of the player being able to pull off predictions and stuff. 

 

Again, this targets your overall mindset of "everything needs to be safe, and with every Pokemon must come with a hard counter to be healthy." It's personally not a very good mindset to have, but I suppose you're entitled to it. 

 

Why does something that is one of a kind have to be banned? I mean, we have Curselax as a one-of-a-kind setup attacker and Special Wall, but the banning of this thing will probably top off the other three that all got similarly banned due to having relentless and merciless physical attacking prowess destroying everything. If anything, the metagame moreso benefits from Gengar's niches rather than grow unhealthy by them. That being one of a kinda merits it staying more than it needs to go, I guess. 

[NikhilR]

This is probably the last time I'm going to try convincing you of stuff here. No offense. 

 

They don't wall it, but they are effective against specific sets, and specific moves. Marginally, Vaporeon can play aggressively versus Gengar especially if you can predict that Taunt, in reference to the whole brutal Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Dual STAB set we discussed a while ago. Also, speaking of Vaporeon, with apologies for my possible ignorance, doesn't the thing get Protect on it's sets? Like, you might as well come in, Protect (unless he predicts it and uses Taunt on switch in) and see what he does. I suppose it's possible that some bluffs may happen here and there, but why not, it's pretty effective. Then again I suppose most people don't carry it for I daresay Hidden Power or Gyarados? Still, Protect is still kinda viable on the thing. 

 

 

0 Vaporeon Surf vs. 4/0 Gengar: 74-88 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

"How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without having a really sour impact by the time you do, and it might have already done what it needs by then?" As much as it is again an inexpressible theoretical fact and is entirely dependent on player skill, well, it's like I said -- you kinda have to accept the fact that risks are in a game and something without safe switches isn't necessarily something that is, well -- unhealthy. Again, I probably won't manage to persuade you because you're demanding a metagame that is fully centralized on safe switch ins. The risk is more than most others and is recognizable, and I used to be an advocate for your reasoning last year but eventually shifted it away. You act as if Gengar takes out a Pokemon in two turns or something, which is pretty exaggerative if you ask me. Also, why is only the player dealing with Gengar that's having the risk? Gengar kinda has it's downs after revealing all of it's moves, and it has only room for four moves instead of the entire versatile kit it has. That and Gengar always makes the correct plays for some reason instead of the player being able to pull off predictions and stuff. 

 

Again, this targets your overall mindset of "everything needs to be safe, and with every Pokemon must come with a hard counter to be healthy." It's personally not a very good mindset to have, but I suppose you're entitled to it. 

 

Why does something that is one of a kind have to be banned? I mean, we have Curselax as a one-of-a-kind setup attacker and Special Wall, but the banning of this thing will probably top off the other three that all got similarly banned due to having relentless and merciless physical attacking prowess destroying everything. If anything, the metagame moreso benefits from Gengar's niches rather than grow unhealthy by them. That being one of a kinda merits it staying more than it needs to go, I guess. 

 

I know they don't wall it. XPLOZ referred to those two as pokemon that could wall it and I was correcting him. Yes you could protect with vaporeon but then you could also have him set up a sub so it could backfire since the whole problem is that you don't know its set.

 

Once Gengar has revealed all its moves, both the players will know whether or not that gengar is capable of sweeping through the team, or if it is a free switch in for some pokemon. So depending on the situation, the gengar user or non gengar user could be facing pressure. 

 

WIth Gengar's strong base spak, I'm pretty sure it can 2hko most pokemon. 

 

For now only time will tell whether or not Gengar is banworthy. I hope the tier council can ban lax asap.

Edited March 27, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

I know they don't wall it. XPLOZ referred to those two as pokemon that could wall it and I was correcting him. Yes you could protect with vaporeon but then you could also have him set up a sub so it could backfire since the whole problem is that you don't know its set.

 

Once Gengar has revealed all its moves, both the players will know whether or not that gengar is capable of sweeping through the team, or if it is a free switch in for some pokemon. So depending on the situation, the gengar user or non gengar user could be facing pressure. 

 

WIth Gengar's strong base spak, I'm pretty sure it can 2hko most pokemon. 

 

For now only time will tell whether or not Gengar is banworthy. I hope the tier council can ban lax asap.

You don't know what to expect, but why does Gengar always get the favourable end of the situation? I mean, I mention Protect as a means to scout for Gengar's moves, but that doesn't mean you use it directly, being you are a Vaporeon, and in that the most common and likely moves it's gonna go for are either say Thunderbolt, Substitute and Taunt, the latter two of which kinda backfire on a Vaporeon that is using Surf, although less so on Sub. 

 

Exactly. You're just putting so much default advantage on Gengar that's not really understandable. It's really good and versatile, but throughout this you've kinda been giving the fact that "oh Gengar always wins this scenario because it can do this and do that, and you won't see it coming". What's your reasoning, "I have more options, so I at least more commonly get favourable scenarios?"

 

Gengar's primary means when it comes to bulky Pokemon is it's utility and passive effects. Gengar's Special Attack may be high, but most of the arguments here centralize on how "oh, if etc switches in it's going to be disabled with some utility move/burn or that Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball Defense drop screws things up." I daresay Gengar doesn't 2HKO a lot of stuff, given Arcanine can still take two STAB moves for instance (although again, passive effects, I know.) In fact, if it weren't for it's utility in stuff like Will-O-Wisp and Disable and say the entire kit of it's tricks it would just be a more powerful, with a better typing that allows in to switch in on things but slightly slower Starmie of some sort. 

Edited March 27, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Frag]

True but Arcanine and Vapo don't wall it. There have been many scenarios where Arcanine switches into a shadowball or sludgebomb and gets a spdef drop or poisoned which forces the arcanine to switch out and get healed. Same goes for vaporeon and with taunt, vapo can't heal the poisoned arcanine or wish back to arcanine. 

 

The only safe attacks for Arcanine to switch into for Gengar are tbolt/wow/focus punch. 

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

For the love of God, can you stop posting Excel if all you're going to do is rage at discussion threads? This is why I didn't want you to post in this thread.

 

Gengar is strong, but no banworthy, after you realize the set, isn't that hard stop it.

I'd say gengar it's healthy for our meta, it keep at line things like flail dodrio, linoone and choice eq spam. 

It just punish walls bc as far as i know it only can come in a preddicted immune move or after a  kill [spoiler][/spoiler] , and even if the tank version can take some extra hit's the speed will hurt against faster sweepers anyways. People just fear thing's that aren't easy to wall, imo our meta needs more mixed pokes like this boy.

I really wish people would stop using the phrase "after you realize the set, it isn't that hard to stop it". How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without taking a lot of damage in the process? By the time you know its set, Gengar would've done its role. 

 

I agree with Gengar's role for beating flail dodrio / linoone and eq spammers but I think we have enough pokes in OU for now that are capable of taking hits. Linoone imo should be banned to Ubers if something happens to Gengar. Flail dodrio would get stopped by metagross/dusclops. I'm sure that Weezing/Slowbro/Vaporeon/Forretress/Cloyster would survive flail at full health. If dodrio doesn't carry low kick (very low chances), it becomes set up bait for Rhydon. 

 

A bulky gengar can switch into so many things and painsplit off the damage. It need not just switch into an immune move. The difference between other sweepers and gengar is that they have hard counters like blissey/snorlax thus making the only role of fast sweepers to only force the switch out but how many times can your fast sweepers come in and take a hit? 

 

You're right about people fearing things that cannot be walled and if we had more mixed pokemon, then things would probably be more balanced but atm we don't.

 

 

 

 

I really wish people would stop using the phrase "after you realize the set, it isn't that hard to stop it". How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without taking a lot of damage in the process? By the time you know its set, Gengar would've done its role. 

 

I agree with Gengar's role for beating flail dodrio / linoone and eq spammers but I think we have enough pokes in OU for now that are capable of taking hits. Linoone imo should be banned to Ubers if something happens to Gengar. Flail dodrio would get stopped by metagross/dusclops. I'm sure that Weezing/Slowbro/Vaporeon/Forretress/Cloyster would survive flail at full health. If dodrio doesn't carry low kick (very low chances), it becomes set up bait for Rhydon. 

 

A bulky gengar can switch into so many things and painsplit off the damage. It need not just switch into an immune move. The difference between other sweepers and gengar is that they have hard counters like blissey/snorlax thus making the only role of fast sweepers to only force the switch out but how many times can your fast sweepers come in and take a hit? 

 

You're right about people fearing things that cannot be walled and if we had more mixed pokemon, then things would probably be more balanced but atm we don't.

 

We both know that walls get dmg while the match so don't try to use them as answer to stop a flail thing. also i don't know what's the problem with blissey, dual bolt bliss is the  best counter to gengar actually, maybe gengar can spam pain split, but that means a free switch into something else.

[NikhilR]

We both know that walls get dmg while the match so don't try to use them as answer to stop a flail thing. also i don't know what's the problem with blissey, dual bolt bliss is the  best counter to gengar actually, maybe gengar can spam pain split, but that means a free switch into something else.

 

Then your gengar will also take some damage and may not even live a dodrio drill peck, so wanting gengar to stay so that you have an answer for flail users won't work either. I'm sure that dusclops/metagross/forretress are decent answers for dodrio and always will be if they have at least 45% health. 

 

Painsplit can lead to a free switch into something else with the risk of having some of your health gone, that could make 3hkos become 2hkos. 

 

@Noir - I think we're going back to the same old scenario as to where we were, so if you still feel that there were some points you mentioned that you want me to address, then let me know.

[Frag]

Then your gengar will also take some damage and may not even live a dodrio drill peck, so wanting gengar to stay so that you have an answer for flail users won't work either. I'm sure that dusclops/metagross/forretress are decent answers for dodrio and always will be if they have at least 45% health.

Painsplit can lead to a free switch into something else with the risk of having some of your health gone, that could make 3hkos become 2hkos.

@Noir - I think we're going back to the same old scenario as to where we were, so if you still feel that there were some points you mentioned that you want me to address, then let me know.

u don't let a flail user remain at sub and 1 hp, so impliying it carry +atk berry which usually does, gengar will come in a predicted flail or after a kill, and even if it switches will lose the berry, dodrio is good, but i think linoone is better, so we aren't talking about the worst scenario. Edited March 27, 2015 by Noad

[NikhilR]

u don't let a flail user remain at sub and 1 hp, so impliying it carry +atk berry which usually does, gengar will come in a predicted flail or after a kill, and even if it switches will lose the berry, dodrio is good, but i think linoone is better, so we aren't talking about the worst scenario.

 

I am assuming dodrio carries salac. So if your gengar is at a low range, drill peck will kill it. Skarmory/Forretress are also good answers to linoone. 

 

I think Gengar does a better job and neutralising the strong normal types like Snorlax, Ursaring, Tauros, Kanga etc. than it would do for dodrio/linoone because we have other pokemon that can deal with those.

[XPLOZ]

I was talking about a specific set, which seems to give problems to a part of the community because if well played it can break walls.

But yeah of course, gengar can run more marginal moves like taunt, as the opponent can also run marginal things that can counter gengar. But i think this is a bit useless to mention those counters. The main issue is more : what a quite common gengar can do to common and viable teams in general. That's why i took an impish arcanine and not a careful one in my calc.

 

Also, saying that some drops of sp def happen with shadow ball is true, but this doesn't really prove that the pokemon against isn't a counter. This just proves that shit 100% based on luck can happen on this game. This is a bit like including crits in the thread.

 

 

What i said was a little confused before so i will sum-up main ideas :

We all agree on the fact that if you don't manage to know gengar's moveset, you might be in trouble if you bring something wrong.

Is something like that banworthy ? Not sure about it. When i see a gengar sweeping, it looks like more something based on good predict, with good moves at good moments than something really OP which just pray to sweep a whole team with one move after a bellydrum or something. I really think that if you don't play well with it, you won't be able to sweep. If you get outpredicted, the opponent will quickly know the moves of gengar. A basic example : the opponent brings a special wall like blissey on gengar while he is putting a sub. He sees a focus punch coming so he brings something bulky on both sides, like a vapoeron or an arcanine or something else which take the focus punch well (in the case of an intimidate user like gyara or arcanine, you can also drop his atk which will make next operations easier). Let's admit we are in a general case and you don't intimidate gengar. As the focus punch won't be very effective against that bulky pokemon, gengar will tend to make an other move, like thunderbolt on vapoeron. The opponent just put back his special wall one turn, to check it. Then you already know 3moves on 4, just with few very simple operations. When you know the whole moveset, a well balanced team will normally be able to avoid a sweep, because of things i already said :

-if running focus + sub + disable + 1 offensive move, there is a lack of coverage and gengar has only 1 direct attacking move, which can be bad sometimes. But disable offer very good opportunites too, that's why it is often played.

-if running focus + sub + 2 offensive moves, the coverage is good so you are more able to sweep a team. But putting a sub will be harder without disable. Well the first one won't be so hard with a good predict or even a bait like foretress, but then you won't be able to sub again easily. A basic blissey with 1 special move will take some 50%+ on 1 focus, and then will break the sub. If he predicts well he also might be able to heal during the switch. Once you know this is a mixed sweeper, gengar won't setup as easily next time.

Well, of course they are others sets for gengar and i'm not admitting this will be for sure a mixed sweeper. But imo the mixed sweeper is the only one which can put a whole team in trouble, that's why i am a bit focused on it. The bulky one with some WoW and Pain split, as i already said, is annoying, to not say very annoying. It is extremly versatile and that's why this is the most common set atm. But as i said too, by making a viable bulky one, you will have to cripple speed or sp atk or even both sometimes. It can't sweep the meta in that position, it can just be a pillar in a defensive core of a team. The pure special attacker one isn't so threatening in our meta, but we have to consider it too because it can piss on teams which are running for example only ludicolo as a special wall. The trapper one is uncompetitive and relying a lot on match-up, like all the trappers. This is maybe the most banworthy aspect of gengar but once you scouted it doesn't have any offensive presence, you may be able to beat it, if this isn't too late...

[Noad]

I will be closing this due to the implementation of our new policies: https://forums.pokem...-tier-policies/

 

If you feel that this Pokemon needs it's own thread for a more focused discussion, please post your reasoning here: https://forums.pokem...request-thread/

 

All general OU meta discussion will now take part in the OU viability thread: https://forums.pokem...ability-thread/