[OU Discussion] Gengar

[Vaeldras]

Based on what I've seen, the thread was created to allow for community input as to which specific characteristic gengar SHOULD be suspected under. Gengar represents one of those pokemon where it's not entirely clear which uber criteria it may or may not meet, so I think the starting point of this discussion has been to put all we know about gengar on the table and kind of see where it lies

 

Personally, if I had to choose one, I think it fits under support the most, as the holes gengar can consistently put in other teams (as they attempt to scout its moveset) makes the opposing team considerably easier to break through for the gengar user. Do I think it fits the criteria enough to be banned? Not as of yet, but we're still relatively early in the discussion

 

I'd say support because of will o wisp, i'm not sure if the focus punch set would be as viable without it, and that's the one that scares sp walls (blissey and lax only probably).

 

Not even ludicolo stands a chance against gengar, since disable on surf and then sub again , maybe with ice beam too though, i'm not sure.

[NikhilR]

Not even ludicolo stands a chance against gengar, since disable on surf and then sub again , maybe with ice beam too though, i'm not sure.

 

Best set would be leech / protect / surf / giga or replacing protect/giga with toxic or synthesis. Forget the sub disable part, Ludicolo would hate a stab sludgebomb to its face.

[Vaeldras]

Best set would be leech / protect / surf / giga or replacing protect/giga with toxic or synthesis. Forget the sub disable part, Ludicolo would hate a stab sludgebomb to its face.

 

Completely forgot about sludge bomb, lel.

[DoubleJ]

pretty sure heracross and snorkax discussion don't belong in this thread. And the fact that you bring them up and they all threaten each other but you want to ban them....I'm beyond confused and don't take anything serious anymore. There are no ways to say any of them yet to meet the banning criteria. They are close but Did not exceed it.

 

While these potential bans might not be directly related to Gengar, they can be attributable to the lower use of Starmie and Alakazam, both of whom readily threaten Gengar as they are faster and are able to OHKO any variant. If you can't see that then hopefully this explains this a little better. 

 

Blissey still shuts them down, but Alakazam can work with beating Bliss with Calm Mind + Recover. 

[Vaeldras]

It might be me, but pursuit got very rare recently, they all run crunch (at least on lax)

[DoubleJ]

It might be me, but pursuit got very rare recently, they all run crunch (at least on lax)

 

That will be the up and down cycle of Pursuit though. If Starmie and Zam are rare, you don't need it. If Pursuit is rare, then Starmie and Zam use will go up. Players just have to recognize the cycle and when to abuse it. 

[Vaeldras]

That will be the up and down cycle of Pursuit though. If Starmie and Zam are rare, you don't need it. If Pursuit is rare, then Starmie and Zam use will go up. Players just have to recognize the cycle and when to abuse it. 

 

Yeh, but is zam still a viable poke? it really needs tpunch, especially now

 

Even though shadowball is really stronk in this new meta: slowbro and gardevoir won't like it.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Vaeldras

[DoubleJ]

Yeh, but is zam still a viable poke? it really needs tpunch, especially now

 

Even though shadowball is really stronk in this new meta: slowbro and gardevoir won't like it.

 

Starmie won't like it either. I think the biggest loss was Fire Punch as Steel-Types (only viable one is Forretress I guess) can now wall it in addition to the classic Special Walls. 

[Vaeldras]

Starmie won't like it either. I think the biggest loss was Fire Punch as Steel-Types (only viable one is Forretress I guess) can now wall it in addition to the classic Special Walls. 

 

Yeh, it tanks +1 shadowball really well, +2hko with eq.

To think that i was sure steel resisted shadowball, i had this (wrong) memory of metagross being neutral to it.

I'm bad.

[Excelimpulse]

While these potential bans might not be directly related to Gengar, they can be attributable to the lower use of Starmie and Alakazam, both of whom readily threaten Gengar as they are faster and are able to OHKO any variant. If you can't see that then hopefully this explains this a little better.

Blissey still shuts them down, but Alakazam can work with beating Bliss with Calm Mind + Recover.

I do see that and that was usually my argument for not banning the dragons which creates the slippery slope effect . But now it's okay for you guys to use it? gengar can also ohko both of them with sball. Those two are not counters that can come in on it. And running psychic on starmie is bad and always has been. Psychic is a poor choice when utility is far more usefall.

And until blissey twaves zam it becomes useless. The only set that can take it on is sub encore imo

slippery slope effect is basically what you just used for your argument. We are talking about gengar alone as you guys would put it

Also would like to add that metagross mixed with lum berry can make a decent check to it. And that can also put the amount of pressure that gengar put on the opponent back to them while losing gengar. Edited March 26, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DoubleJ]

I do see that and that was usually my argument for not banning the dragons which creates the slippery slope effect . But now it's okay for you guys to use it? gengar can also ohko both of them with sball. Those two are not counters that can come in on it. And running psychic on starmie is bad and always has been. Psychic is a poor choice when utility is far more usefall.

And until blissey twaves zam it becomes useless. The only set that can take it on is sub encore imo

slippery slope effect is basically what you just used for your argument. We are talking about gengar alone as you guys would put it

 

It's a generalized statement about the properties related to increased Gengar use and how potential changes in the meta could result in Gengar having less of an effect. I also didn't say the were counters. What I can say, and have implied, is that both put extra pressure on Gengar and reduce its ability to switch in, and visa versa as you have pointed out. 

 

Don't be so negative and salty about how the community treated you. I appreciate your latter remarks though. 

[Excelimpulse]

It's a generalized statement about the properties related to increased Gengar use and how potential changes in the meta could result in Gengar having less of an effect. I also didn't say the were counters. What I can say, and have implied, is that both put extra pressure on Gengar and reduce its ability to switch in, and visa versa as you have pointed out.

Don't be so negative and salty about how the community treated you. I appreciate your latter remarks though.

I just argue back the way the community has argued against me on everything. I agree with what your saying but I don't think those bans are necessary when those two pokes starmie and zam can both run sub+ 3 attacks to scout for pursuit type moves. Just like gengar can.

Zam can also become deadly with it like I mentioned in the other post with encore and twave access. It can act almost just as deadly as gengar with support moves if played correctly.

The only problem is is trying to get it in. Edited March 26, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[Vaeldras]

Also would like to add that metagross mixed with lum berry can make a decent check to it. And that can also put the amount of pressure that gengar put on the opponent back to them while losing gengar.

 

Yeh but what's mixed metagross good for anyway? gengar and...dusclops?

[Excelimpulse]

Yeh but what's mixed metagross good for anyway? gengar and...dusclops?

Weezing bait steel bait. I actually prefer mixed just because people that think most counters like weezing or swamoert or foretress can stop it. They end up getting killed in the process. But again that's with the suprise factor like gengar has that can really break a teams core to stop that specific threat.

But obviously you need hp grass or fire for this but when used it works wonders. Edited March 26, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DoubleJ]

I just argue back the way the community has argued against me on everything. I agree with what your saying but I don't think those bans are necessary when those two pokes starmie and zam can both run sub+ 3 attacks to scout for pursuit type moves. Just like gengar can.

Zam can also become deadly with it like I mentioned in the other post with encore and twave access. It can act almost just as deadly as gengar with support moves if played correctly.

The only problem is is trying to get it in.

 

You are mistaking my argument. Let me back track for you, but first let me say this: don't be a jerk just because others were jerks to you. Change doesn't occur that way.

 

1. Gengar is an incredible presence in our current meta and is a prominent s-class, potentially banworthy.

2. Snorlax is as well, and Gengar is used as a common check to Snorlax.

3. Snorlax may be banned, which could potentially lead to a drop in Gengar use.

4. A Snorlax ban may result in an increased use of pokemon like Alakazam and Starmie, which put added pressure on Gengar making it difficult to use.

 

I'm not in favor of banning Lax because of Starmie and Alakazam, I'm in favor of banning Lax because it is simply too good. If a Lax ban reduces Gengar's ability to dominate the meta, then Gengar may not require a ban. 

[Vaeldras]

Weezing bait steel bait. I actually prefer mixed just because people that think most counters like weezing or swamoert or foretress can stop it. They end up getting killed in the process. But again that's with the suprise factor like gengar has that can really break a teams core to stop that specific threat.

But obviously you need hp grass or fire for this but when used it works wonders.

 

Forgot about weezing, yeh.

Not as bad as i thought maybe.

[Excelimpulse]

You are mistaking my argument. Let me back track for you, but first let me say this: don't be a jerk just because others were jerks to you. Change doesn't occur that way.

1. Gengar is an incredible presence in our current meta and is a prominent s-class, potentially banworthy.
2. Snorlax is as well, and Gengar is used as a common check to Snorlax.
3. Snorlax may be banned, which could potentially lead to a drop in Gengar use.
4. A Snorlax ban may result in an increased use of pokemon like Alakazam and Starmie, which put added pressure on Gengar making it difficult to use.

I'm not in favor of banning Lax because of Starmie and Alakazam, I'm in favor of banning Lax because it is simply too good. If a Lax ban reduces Gengar's ability to dominate the meta, then Gengar may not require a ban.

I don't think neither of that has to happen. A simple sub on those pokes can still make them threatening it's just if the community wants to adapt to it.

Snorlax is our only pivot pokemon for offensive based teams. And I honestly don't see a drop in gengar ever. It's hands down the best special sweeper support we have no matter who or what is involved.

Snorlax on the other hand can simply be killed by sub 3 attacks gengar. Sbomb hits beyond hard on it and if it poisions it. Gengar lives to tell the tale. I think they both are weaknesses to themselves. But I honestly do not think banning snorlax will result in a gengar drop or banning gengar will help anything. and I've yet to see how gengar is to overpowered and worth a ban on our criteria. A lot of pokemkn can do the same thing. The only issue is that gengar can come in a lot on cb locked eqs or brick breaks etc. The ability and type is what I think makes gengar abuse the moves he has.

Because just like starmie and zsm they all have have support moves.

But like I have poistened out before with netagross mixed. It can have a huge effect on a game. Just like gengar and metagross has arguably the best typing in game. But very few people run mixed because our meta is only seeing physical being run.

And when did usage stats warrant bans on ou? I honestly don't see how that's right at all because there will always be the top 10 pokes used and we all know it. Especially in a list on 20 viable ones. Edited March 26, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DoubleJ]

I don't think neither of that has to happen. A simple sub on those pokes can still make them threatening it's just if the community wants to adapt to it.

Snorlax is our only pivot pokemon for offensive based teams. And I honestly don't see a drop in gengar ever. It's hands down the best special sweeper support we have no matter who or what is involved.

Snorlax on the other hand can simply be killed by sub 3 attacks gengar. Sbomb hits beyond hard on it and if it poisions it. Gengar lives to tell the tale. I think they both are weaknesses to themselves. But I honestly do not think banning snorlax will result in a gengar drop or banning gengar will help anything. and I've yet to see how gengar is to overpowered and worth a ban on our criteria. A lot of pokemkn can do the same thing. The only issue is that gengar can come in a lot on cb locked eqs or brick breaks etc. The ability and type is what I think makes gengar abuse the moves he has.

Because just like starmie and zsm they all have have support moves.

But like I have poistened out before with netagross mixed. It can have a huge effect on a game. Just like gengar and metagross has arguably the best typing in game. But very few people run mixed because our meta is only seeing physical being run.

 

Fastest Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, and Explosion in the game (barring a very weak Electrode Explosion). Will-o-Wisp cripples any and all viable physical attackers not named Arcanine and Charizard, but both are hurt by a very powerful Special Attack (base 130). Destiny Bond guarantees a kill on any unsuspecting killer. Explosion can take out many common counters as a last ditch effort if you see an advantage by killing that counter. 

 

You can choose between any three of those on a set and instantly become a top threat. Toss in Disable and suddenly you cripple Choice Banders and pokemon that typically can only hit you with one attack (Snorlax, Blissey, Ursaring, etc.). 

 

Idk man, I just don't see how you think other pokemon can do what Gengar can do. They can't. And then there are those multiple immunities and resistances as well. 

[Excelimpulse]

Fastest Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, and Explosion in the game (barring a very weak Electrode Explosion). Will-o-Wisp cripples any and all viable physical attackers not named Arcanine and Charizard, but both are hurt by a very powerful Special Attack (base 130). Destiny Bond guarantees a kill on any unsuspecting killer. Explosion can take out many common counters as a last ditch effort if you see an advantage by killing that counter.

You can choose between any three of those on a set and instantly become a top threat. Toss in Disable and suddenly you cripple Choice Banders and pokemon that typically can only hit you with one attack (Snorlax, Blissey, Ursaring, etc.).

Idk man, I just don't see how you think other pokemon can do what Gengar can do. They can't. And then there are those multiple immunities and resistances as well.

And remember how I said gengar can literally keep the big 3 at bay? And I got laughed at...but now gengar can literally stop any cb user? Hhmm....I get what your saying I really do. But I said this 3 months ago and got laughed at.

I honestly agree that gengar is a huge threat but I think we should start looking on how to limit the use of that then or honestly ou will be a borderline tier and a more boring one then it already is with these potential bans in place.

Now that we know that gengar and clops can literally cripple ever cb user I think we should start looking into bringing back some of the bans we have. laugh at me all you want but gengar would keep the dragons from coming in from the potential of icy wind or willo.

This I think will limit the use of gengar and also promote a way to keep them at bay. Gengar can then be limited by ttar but gengar can also threaten it. Edited March 26, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[XPLOZ]

My opinion :

 

We can all agree that both Gengar and Snorlax are very strong in our meta. Therefore, we can see them a bit everywhere.

But there is a little difference : one seems unhealthy for our meta whereas one seems healthy. I think you guessed that the healthy one i am talking about is gengar. I already said why Snorlax seems unhealthy especially in the current meta on the other thread, have a look at it if you want.

 

Firstable, i'd like to talk about the healthiness of gengar in our meta. As you noticed it in that thread, gengar can do things other pokemons can't do. In fact, his wonderful immunities allows him to disturb opponent's sweep, mainly choice banders, who have to make better anticipations not to let an easy setup for gengar. They also have to think more about their moveset, to cover everything they want. Add to this supporting moves like WoW, PS, or disable, and Gengar becomes really versatile. But have a look at our meta : physical sweepers are ruling it like never. Actually, a basic player who comes full physical offensive on you without trying to make a balanced team can win (> removing snorlax will rebalance things a bit). Without gengar, it will just become worse because as you said, there isn't any pokemon which can replace it. Also people will just bring explosion teams and piss on everything (yes someone already won an official tourney like that).

 

Secondly, i'd like to talk about gengar's powerness, alone. I think we can say that the most common gengar played atm is the bulky one with moves like WoW / PS and some offensive coverage. This is a bit recent, since the update totally changed the meta. If this is so threatening, why people weren't playing it before ? Just because it cripples a bit his sweeping ability, by no making profit of his very good speed BS or his special atk BS, or even both. This is true that it is is annoying, but how can it sweep the meta like a real Uber can ?

Of course this isn't at all the only viable set of gengar. Let's talk a bit about the most threatening offensive set : the mixed sweeper. Basically, it is played with sub/focus punch/ 1 or 2 offensive special moves (mainly between thunderbolt and shadow ball) and sometimes disable. As a mixed sweeper, his goal is to break walls. And as a mixed sweeper again, he invests in both offensive sides, and doesn't maximize any of them. Moreover, gengar has a bad atk so it needs a quite big investment to hurt with focus punch (2HKO blissey for example). Some people say that disable is OP because it cripples a lot of things that have only one move to touch gengar. This is true, but disable is also less offensive coverage btw. If you are running focus + sub + disable, then you have the place for only 1 offensive direct move. If this is thunderbolt, pokemons which absorb electric moves will like. If this is shadow ball, the problem will be mainly steel types, which can safely put spikes while stalling hard focus punch + shadow, which, I remember you, are not even maximized. If you don't run disable, then gengar will be a lot less versatile, so won't be OP anymore.

 

 

Finally, I'm in favour of a test-ban of Snorlax first to see how the meta evolves, and then the case of gengar can be discussed again.

[codylramey]

I honestly agree that gengar is a huge threat but I think we should start looking on how to limit the use of that then or honestly ou will be a borderline tier and a more boring one then it already is with these potential bans in place.

Thats what jj was saying in his banning lax statement. He is saying that there is a chance that gengars usage will go down if lax id banned bc as of right now he is the best spcl attacker bc of snorlax. If lax is banned people will go to other special attackers such as zam (lol) and starmie instead of gengar. While we cant prove that he is right it would be wiser to ban the most obvious problem poke (lax) and see what happens then to ban something that is as borderline as gar.

[DoubleJ]

And remember how I said gengar can literally keep the big 3 at bay? And I got laughed at...but now gengar can literally stop any cb user? Hhmm....I get what your saying I really do. But I said this 3 months ago and got laughed at.

I honestly agree that gengar is a huge threat but I think we should start looking on how to limit the use of that then or honestly ou will be a borderline tier and a more boring one then it already is with these potential bans in place.

Now that we know that gengar and clops can literally cripple ever cb user I think we should start looking into bringing back some of the bans we have. laugh at me all you want but gengar would keep the dragons from coming in from the potential of icy wind or willo.

This I think will limit the use of gengar and also promote a way to keep them at bay. Gengar can then be limited by ttar but gengar can also threaten it.

 

Stopping one broken thing by adding more broken things isn't going to solve our problem. If you still can't see why the dragons are bad for the meta then I don't think I can proceed with any further conversation here. 

 

I also believe you are over-generalizing my statements. Gengar doesn't "literally stop" every CB user. A) It can't switch in without risking death B) It has to invest speed C) It needs to sack coverage for WoW. Gengar is God-Tier in our current meta, but it's not unstoppable. 

 

Dusclops is a very shitty version of Gengar in my opinion. While it provides better bulk, it's speed and weakness to ground attacks hurts it dearly. It too runs the risk of not being able to switch in, but it benefits from not being a OHKO, but rather a 2HKO for a lot of STAB/SE CB Attacks. 

 

Also, Cody summed up my comments fairly well. I think I'll walk away from this conversation now. 

[Excelimpulse]

Gengar is the best spec attacker even with snorlax gone. Other things also get pursuit I hope you guys do realize that. Metagross ring a bell. Or is that the next thing to go to because it hits hard physically and can trap starmie and zam? Stop being ban crazy about every thing that hits hard dear god. First it's the big 3 next it's heracross next it's snorlax next it's metagross. Like honestly I'm leaving these discussions because it's like every week a new thread is up because someone got destroyed by a such poke.

Especially when snorkax can be revenge killed and set up on like come on. Heracross blaziken and any other fighting type literally wants snorlax in to set up.

Like did we forget what happened when Bbanned snorlax last time? The fat blob was on every team. Is that really healthy then?

Edited March 26, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[Vaeldras]

I'd like to point out that if curse gets banned, gengar won't be a check to snorlax anymore (might end up running lum berry and self destruct though)

[DrCraig]

Gengar is the best spec attacker even with snorlax gone. Other things also get pursuit I hope you guys do realize that. Metagross ring a bell. Or is that the next thing to go to because it hits hard physically and can trap starmie and zam? Stop being ban crazy about every thing that hits hard dear god. First it's the big 3 next it's heracross next it's snorlax next it's metagross. Like honestly I'm leaving these discussions because it's like every week a new thread is up because someone got destroyed by a such poke.
Especially when snorkax can be revenge killed and set up on like come on. Heracross blaziken and any other fighting type literally wants snorlax in to set up.
Like did we forget what happened when Bbanned snorlax last time? The fat blob was on every team. Is that really healthy then?

Nobody is ban crazy. Not much has been ban. If there is a problem with discussing bans, you shouldnt read them. This post is irrelevant.