[OU Discussion] Gengar

[NikhilR]

So after losing to a gengar for the umpteenth time and instead of just sulking and being salty about it, I have decided to create this so that I could actually discuss with the whole community on their stance on gengar. While it's understandable that people will have some sort of bias when it comes to this discussion, I really hope that the bias won't cloud your judgement.

 

 

 

So I'm just gonna go ahead and use Craig's layout for creating discussion threads since he's had a lot of success in banning things, gonna hope it works this time too *fingers crossed*

 

Viable Sets

 

The sets I'll be mentioning are probably the ones that are potentially the most threatening. If I am forgetting a set or if you feel that there could be a better alternative to one of the moves I provide in the set, feel free to post it.

 

Perish Trapper

 

Perish Song

Mean Look 

 

Remaining two moves can be rotated around sub / disable / protect / wow. This gengar has the ability to perish trap almost any wall out there and the unpredictability of this role is what surprises most people since they tend to go to blissey / snorlax to wall it.

 

Sub - Disable

 

Subsitute

Disable

Focus Punch

Tbolt 

 

Probably one of the best answers to any mono attacking pokemon and a good answer to curselax. However it may not be able to beat curselax since lax could continue boosting and this would eventually lead to a stall fest.

 

Special Attacker With Wow

 

Wow

Sludgebomb

 

Remaining 2 can be around taunt / painsplit / shadowball / sub

 

Wow cripples any physical attacker. Sludgebomb hits anything that switches in hard with the risk of being poisoned. This sort of gengar can be ev'd in bulk and if so, then it can run taunt instead of painsplit while the ones which have a bit more special investment can run painsplit to recover it's health since it dies easier compared to a bulky one.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

These are just some of the few sets, you can see many more with 252spak and 4 attacks, or a mixed gar with explosion etc.

 

The usage stats show Gengar at around 51% , which imo is pretty high. It's sometimes easy to find a counter for each of the above sets of gengar but until you know it's moveset beforehand, you're screwed since it'll take out one or more of your pokemon by the time you're done knowing the set.

 

With the split, gengar has become insanely powerful because of its 2 stabs, shadowball and sludgebomb with both of those moves having a secondary effect. One causes poisoning and the other with a special def drop. Gengar has an excellent typing considering that it's ghost which makes it immune to fight/normal and with some resists like bug. Poison allows it to never be toxiced and levitate just makes it perfect.

 

I was earlier of the opinion that Arcanine is a hard on counter for Gengar so I've been running one but there have been many instances where Arcanine has either gotten poisoned or had a -spdef drop. In these cases, I realized that Arc is not truly a counter for Gengar. Taunt prevents arc from using morning sun, assuming that you switch it in. Making it easier for gengar to kill arcanine.

 

Imo, I have always felt that something that cannot be walled is definitely uber. With most pokemon there is some awareness that you would have about what set it'll be but gengar has so many diverse roles which can turn a situation around completely.

 

So yeah, please discuss and I'd appreciate it if we could all discuss about it in a civil manner.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Noad

[londark]

"Something that cannot be walled is Uber" isn't really right, to put down an example, in ORAS OU you can't wall effectivly Mega Medicham (except mega sablaye, forgot that shit exists, yet in XY nothing walled it ), but it is still OU....altho, that's a different meta and all, the point is, it cannot sweep with little effort ( debeatable imo tho ), so doesn't deserve a ban


About Gengar, it's indeed a top threat in OU....but i'm not really conviced about its Uber traits yet

Edited March 23, 2015 by londark

[YagamiNoir]

I'm surprised this mentality still sticks, as Londar said. The fact that something cannot be walled in it's entirety does not necessarily define it an Uber unless it has the Speed and other necessary kit tools to complement it. You see stuff like Marowak, Charizard and Rhydon, with their sheer damage that destroys practically the entire metagame, but each have their notable flaws that hinder them from being entirely successful in sweeping despite their seemingly tremendous power. 

 

Secondly, I wouldn't tackle Gengar for being "virtually unwallable", even if is still in practice, an Uber. Being un-wallable is different from being "being incredibly versatile." It's comparing a Pokemon that takes only one or two sets to achieve that boundary, say Choice Band Dragons Salamence and Dragonite, and something that can run tons of sets to achieve that, in this case being Gengar. You know what Salamence and Dragonite are gonna do but still can't stop them effectively, whereas Gengar relies on it's notorious mind-flipping versatility that gives pressure on opponents. Nothing virtually beats any Gengar set, but can a Gengar run all sets at once to deal with everything that deals with one specific set or move in between? This is the known rule called 4MSS, although I suppose instead of not having a spare slot for all moves, Gengar's sets form very different functions and thus makes it very unpredictable, instead of the whole "oh, does he have Hidden Power Fire or Ice on this thing, etc." I used to be entirely be opposed of 4MSS respecting all possibilities, but as the meta changes, so does my own opinion. 

 

One of the two prime threats of the metagame as of current that the council have not given really appropriate answers to as of yet are Heracross and Snorlax, two Pokemon of which Gengar can effectively check better so than most others. It is thus not very surprising that Gengar is one of the prime picks for an effective team composition given how the ability to check these two things is invaluable alongside the rest of the positives. This isn't to say that Gengar wouldn't be used as much even without these two, but this is but my own honest speculation, in that these two do pose a significant role in why Gengar is such a common sight near and far. 

 

"Scout for it's set" is probably an answer some people may give. I understand your opinion in that doing so costs you an arm and a leg and in that it's unhealthy, Nik. Inevitably, that can be the case, but when it look at it again, I suppose it's safe to say that once you -do- figure out it's set, you'll find that you can have a few things in your team that can deal with it specifically. I thusly find the whole "by the time you know it's set, one or two Pokemon are probably already dead" thing a mild exaggeration. Look again at the sets you've been giving -- noting that apart from your emphasis regarding Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball and their side effects, most of your sets centralize themselves around utility. Utility that screws up a Choice Bander or Pokemon that have only one reliable move to hit it with. Trapping. Burns. Disabling opposing utility with Taunt. That being said, most of what you've listed from it comes from it's utility rather than offense, which contradicts the whole "it is unwallable" thing to begin with. Utility also isn't an immediate death sentence unless it's Perish Song. 

 

Without this utility, would a sheerly offensive Gengar with stuff like Sub + 3 Attacks or a full all-out attacker be problematic? Well, maybe. Are there things in our metagame that can handle Gengar's offensives but fall to it's utility, and vice versa? Yes. Does Gengar have room for all this and deal with -everything- as if it can go beyond the 4 move boundary with a phantom magic trick? No. Does Gengar possess one specific set in the current metagame that clears all of what Gengar fears flawlessly? I think not. If there were one, you would've named one on the spot. In fact, all of Gengar's sets are ones to be watched out for, but it is because it can run all of these sets that people need to be careful. None of Gengar's sets particularly stand out individually being as godlike as a Choice Band Dragon, but people have grown to be, with respectable but slightly incomprehensible reasons, scared of it's versatility that risks aren't things people are willing to take anymore. This was also not really an approach that the council was taking or are taking now. "Oh, for the sake of reducing risks, something has to go." Look at ThinkNice's thread about the UU direction, I think his words apply to all metas.  This makes it less comparable to even stuff like Heracross and Snorlax that, with primarily one set, causes severe problems and has effective solutions in some terms. 

 

Just my two cents, I know my words may be completely wrong here. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[XPLOZ]

I don't have time to read all you wrote and give my opinion, i'll do it later.

But i just want to remind you that we have only 2 ghosts in OU right now. Removing one of those 2 may undermine metagame's stability.

[OldKeith]

I like that you made the thread, Gengar is definitely way superior to most pokemon in OU, no doubt. But for now, I am not convinced it is banworthy, because after you scout the moves, technically you should be able to wall it.

[raaidn]

I fking hate Gengar and think its OP, not sure if it's uber doh.

[NikhilR]

"Something that cannot be walled is Uber" isn't really right, to put down an example, in ORAS OU you can't wall effectivly Mega Medicham (except mega sablaye, forgot that shit exists ), but it is still OU....altho, that's a different meta and all, the point is, it cannot sweep with little effort ( debeatable imo tho ), so doesn't deserve a ban


About Gengar, it's indeed a top threat in OU....but i'm not really conviced about its Uber traits yet

 

Unfortunately I don't know much about ORAS so I can't comment on it. About the uber part, I'd like to see what more people have to say about it.

 

I'm surprised this mentality still sticks, as Londar said. The fact that something cannot be walled in it's entirety does not necessarily define it an Uber unless it has the Speed and other necessary kit tools to complement it. You see stuff like Marowak, Charizard and Rhydon, with their sheer damage that destroys practically the entire metagame, but each have their notable flaws that hinder them from being entirely successful in sweeping despite their seemingly tremendous power. 

 

Secondly, I wouldn't tackle Gengar for being "virtually unwallable", even if is still in practice, an Uber. Being un-wallable is different from being "being incredibly versatile." It's comparing a Pokemon that takes only one or two sets to achieve that boundary, say Choice Band Dragons Salamence and Dragonite, and something that can run tons of sets to achieve that, in this case being Gengar. You know what Salamence and Dragonite are gonna do but still can't stop them effectively, whereas Gengar relies on it's notorious mind-flipping versatility that gives pressure on opponents. Nothing virtually beats any Gengar set, but can a Gengar run all sets at once to deal with everything that deals with one specific set or move in between? This is the known rule called 4MSS, although I suppose instead of not having a spare slot for all moves, Gengar's sets form very different functions and thus makes it very unpredictable, instead of the whole "oh, does he have Hidden Power Fire or Ice on this thing, etc." I used to be entirely be opposed of 4MSS respecting all possibilities, but as the meta changes, so does my own opinion. 

 

One of the two prime threats of the metagame as of current that the council have not given really appropriate answers to as of yet are Heracross and Snorlax, two Pokemon of which Gengar can effectively check better so than most others. It is thus not very surprising that Gengar is one of the prime picks for an effective team composition given how the ability to check these two things is invaluable alongside the rest of the positives. This isn't to say that Gengar wouldn't be used as much even without these two, but this is but my own honest speculation, in that these two do pose a significant role in why Gengar is such a common sight near and far. 

 

"Scout for it's set" is probably an answer some people may give. I understand your opinion in that doing so costs you an arm and a leg and in that it's unhealthy, Nik. Inevitably, that can be the case, but when it look at it again, I suppose it's safe to say that once you -do- figure out it's set, you'll find that you can have a few things in your team that can deal with it specifically. I thusly find the whole "by the time you know it's set, one or two Pokemon are probably already dead" thing a mild exaggeration. Look again at the sets you've been giving -- noting that apart from your emphasis regarding Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball and their side effects, most of your sets centralize themselves around utility. Utility that screws up a Choice Bander or Pokemon that have only one reliable move to hit it with. Trapping. Burns. Disabling opposing utility with Taunt. That being said, most of what you've listed from it comes from it's utility rather than offense, which contradicts the whole "it is unwallable" thing to begin with. Utility also isn't an immediate death sentence unless it's Perish Song. 

 

Without this utility, would a sheerly offensive Gengar with stuff like Sub + 3 Attacks or a full all-out attacker be problematic? Well, maybe. Are there things in our metagame that can handle Gengar's offensives but fall to it's utility, and vice versa? Yes. Does Gengar have room for all this and deal with -everything- as if it can go beyond the 4 move boundary with a phantom magic trick? No. Does Gengar possess one specific set in the current metagame that clears all of what Gengar fears flawlessly? I think not. If there were one, you would've named one on the spot. In fact, all of Gengar's sets are ones to be watched out for, but it is because it can run all of these sets that people need to be careful. None of Gengar's sets particularly stand out individually being as godlike as a Choice Band Dragon, but people have grown to be, with respectable but slightly incomprehensible reasons, scared of it's versatility that risks aren't things people are willing to take anymore. This was also not really an approach that the council was taking or are taking now. "Oh, for the sake of reducing risks, something has to go." Look at ThinkNice's thread about the UU direction, I think his words apply to all metas.  This makes it less comparable to even stuff like Heracross and Snorlax that, with primarily one set, causes severe problems and has effective solutions in some terms. 

 

Just my two cents, I know my words may be completely wrong here. 

 

Marowak and Rhydon are only useful vs wall teams and snorlax/weezing respectively. Before the CB meta, the wall game was more preferrable hence it allowed marowak to shine because it could switch in and set up easily. Rhydon on the other hand can set up on only vs few pokemon. Charizard is powerful only if it gets to +6 (not sure if you're talking about gen 6). About the walling part. Skarm and Gengar can switch in on any of marowak's attacks bar rock slide and the latter can knock off the thick club. Rhydon gets walled by sub disable gengar, slowbro etc. Charizard gets walled by vaporeon/swampert. Even though these pokemon hit hard, they have walls.

 

I agree with one of the reasons why Gengar is used nowadays is because of how it checks Hera/Snorlax. Well the difference between other pokes and gengar is that for scouting out the moveset of say mence or dragonite, your pokemon need not be killed. Gengar's ability to status the opponent is a bigger problem apart from just dealing damage.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Uh let me give you a scenario of what happened to me earlier when facing a gengar:

 

Gengar burns Snorlax, I deal very little damage with Fire Punch.

I switch to Arcanine and take a sludgebomb and get poisoned.

I then go to Vaporeon because I wanted to heal bell and I get poisoned by sludgebomb and taunted. 

 

If I want to force the gengar out, it would mean one of my offensive pokemon taking a big hit to the face like flygon/heracross/rhydon. 

 

So now I can't heal my pokemon and I have no way of effectively dealing damage.

 

---------------------------------

 

About the running offense+utility part, the great thing about Gengar is that it doesn't need to be specific to one role. A full on offense gengar can get walled and will eventually die to blissey, a utility one won't do much dmg but gengar can run both at the same time which makes it even more scary. 

 

I don't have time to read all you wrote and give my opinion, i'll do it later.

But i just want to remind you that we have only 2 ghosts in OU right now. Removing one of those 2 may undermine metagame's stability.

 

This isn't a topic regarding the metagame's stability and I don't want you to take that into consideration when giving your opinion. Give me your opinions on gengar alone.

 

I like that you made the thread, Gengar is definitely way superior to most pokemon in OU, no doubt. But for now, I am not convinced it is banworthy, because after you scout the moves, technically you should be able to wall it.

 

Well that's my point Keith. Firstly knowing the set comes with great risks which could in itself take out your walls. The Perish set takes out your special wall but then you know that gengar is probably switch in bait for almost anything so it isn't all that powerful imo. There are countless other sets it could run, such that even after you scout out its moveset, the game would still be over for you.

 

I fking hate Gengar and think its OP, not sure if it's uber doh.

 

Pretty much the same sentiments but like I said, I'd like to see how the discussion goes by.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thanks for the comments guys and keeping the discussion proper.

[OldKeith]

The problem I see with banning Gengar is that it would make Linoone more viable in OU.

[NikhilR]

The problem I see with banning Gengar is that it would make Linoone more viable in OU.

 

I think Linoone needs to be banned to Ubers. In OU almost anyone can run a pursuit trapper+magneton to take out skarm and sweep. And just like in UU, it can set up with ease vs almost any wall.

[YagamiNoir]

Unfortunately I don't know much about ORAS so I can't comment on it. About the uber part, I'd like to see what more people have to say about it.

 

 

Marowak and Rhydon are only useful vs wall teams and snorlax/weezing respectively. Before the CB meta, the wall game was more preferrable hence it allowed marowak to shine because it could switch in and set up easily. Rhydon on the other hand can set up on only vs few pokemon. Charizard is powerful only if it gets to +6 (not sure if you're talking about gen 6). About the walling part. Skarm and Gengar can switch in on any of marowak's attacks bar rock slide and the latter can knock off the thick club. Rhydon gets walled by sub disable gengar, slowbro etc. Charizard gets walled by vaporeon/swampert. Even though these pokemon hit hard, they have walls.

 

I agree with one of the reasons why Gengar is used nowadays is because of how it checks Hera/Snorlax. Well the difference between other pokes and gengar is that for scouting out the moveset of say mence or dragonite, your pokemon need not be killed. Gengar's ability to status the opponent is a bigger problem apart from just dealing damage.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Uh let me give you a scenario of what happened to me earlier when facing a gengar:

 

Gengar burns Snorlax, I deal very little damage with Fire Punch.

I switch to Arcanine and take a sludgebomb and get poisoned.

I then go to Vaporeon because I wanted to heal bell and I get poisoned by sludgebomb and taunted. 

 

If I want to force the gengar out, it would mean one of my offensive pokemon taking a big hit to the face like flygon/heracross/rhydon. 

 

So now I can't heal my pokemon and I have no way of effectively dealing damage.

 

---------------------------------

 

About the running offense+utility part, the great thing about Gengar is that it doesn't need to be specific to one role. A full on offense gengar can get walled and will eventually die to blissey, a utility one won't do much dmg but gengar can run both at the same time which makes it even more scary. 

 

 

This isn't a topic regarding the metagame's stability and I don't want you to take that into consideration when giving your opinion. Give me your opinions on gengar alone.

 

 

Well that's my point Keith. Firstly knowing the set comes with great risks which could in itself take out your walls. The Perish set takes out your special wall but then you know that gengar is probably switch in bait for almost anything so it isn't all that powerful imo. There are countless other sets it could run, such that even after you scout out its moveset, the game would still be over for you.

 

 

Pretty much the same sentiments but like I said, I'd like to see how the discussion goes by.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thanks for the comments guys and keeping the discussion proper.

The example about ORAS than Londar was trying to make was how metagames that are far more offensive in comparison to ours still keep things that are "unwallable." This has been a thing throughout most of future generations when offense was buffed massively where tons of really powerful things still roamed free in their tiers despite fitting the whole "nothing can wall it" criteria. That being said, what really prohibits us from taking said approach? 

 

I'm trying to change your mindset on what you really should see as a defining "Uber". Given that you've said that you've always been convinced that anything "unwallable", fits that criteria. Rhydon isn't necessarily walled by SubDisable Gengar depending on whether or not it uses Rock Blast, although I suppose no one uses it, nor does Slowbro really appreciate getting hit by two Choice Band Megahorns to the head. Even if these things do actually take a hit, they don't take it as well as a legitimate counter would. In fact, nothing really does. You're kinda picking at counters here since I can refer to the fact that Charizard's SunnyBeam set shrekts those two Waters and the fact that Marowak now gets either Fire or ThunderPunch to hit Skarm reliably with. Either way, all this isn't really relevant, given that the approach that you're trying to portray with Gengar, by definition, isn't really "unwallable" to begin with. Gengar isn't a nuclear bomb like the Dragons are. It's just got some many options you don't know what it's going to do without potentially putting yourself in this "tremendous risk". 

 

Yes, Gengar isn't specific to one role, but does Gengar do everything in one set at the same time? I guess Will-O-Wisp/Taunt and dual STAB itself sounds pretty brutal, but this is kinda easily taken out by an aggressive Blissey and Gengar has to take risks when it comes into a Snorlax especially if it's Choice Banded or carries something like Whirlwind. I'm not one to judge plays, but under the assumption your Snorlax has Rest, staying in even if you were burned would may have possibly been the better move, since you can kinda get how a Gengar set is as you gradually pick up the moves. Against Gengar, you kinda need to know what will bring the least risk, which is a pretty important factor in deciding anything, even against a simple Choice Bander. I'm sorry to be blunt with you, but infavourable situations against Gengar, is, portrayable to some degree, a result of an error of judgement. Pokemon, especially in more offensive tiers, are heavily reliant on judgement and good plays, which are relevant on both spectrums. This is a test of a player's skill, and is this versatile tool that forces you to think something that should be abolished since there should be no risk? There's a difference between," I know what he's gonna do, but he can still shrekt me"(in the case of the Dragons) and "I don't know what he has yet, so I should be careful if I don't wanna get shrekt". If you're one to twist your head fast, think about what would benefit the team built around Gengar to think of it's possible moves.  Not a lot boast to wall everything it gets to shove out, but Gengar can't hide all of it's moves forever, nor can it single-handedly dominate an entire enemy team usually. Go against it's utility with an offensive approach and if available have a Special tank balance between both offense and utility. It's kind of like cracking the hard shell of a nut with your hands instead of expecting a non-existent nutcracker to come to your aid. 

 

Gengar only cripples walls with it's own utility, and variants that don't have Taunt are debatably easier to respond with.  I suppose Taunt is now mandatory or top common on Gengar now? Gengar is not, and never, an immediate death sentence to walls. I suppose excluding Perish Song, but Gengar doesn't necessarily always get to kill your Special wall, even if it gets the free turn of it responding to it, an issue more notable against say Snorlax. Gengar has the versatility but not the power to single handedly eliminate them reliably. I don't see how the game necessarily immediately ends just because one is taking the natural, although in Gengar's case more risky, gamble of judgement that is inevitable and existent in any game. 

 

This shouldn't derail to Linoone. We shouldn't talk about the influences after it's banning when there's not even a clear definition on why it should be banned in the first place. The most obvious bans if you want to take that route would go to Snorlax and Heracross having lost a common and significant check, which would flip the OU meta into something new. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Excelimpulse]

Why don't we just ban everything so we don't have an ou tier?

All seriousness any pursuit trapper with lum stops it and revenge kills it.

Aerodactyl comes to mind. Either cb rs will kill or pursuit will on the switch out of it decides to run.

And when it comes it's about surviving it. Once u find out the set gengar has weaknesses just like snorkax.

My favorite set on gengar is sub sbomb sball hp fire.

I find it devistating but blissey shuts it down if it can get a twave on it or doesn't get poisoned.

[NikhilR]

The example about ORAS than Londar was trying to make was how metagames that are far more offensive in comparison to ours still keep things that are "unwallable." This has been a thing throughout most of future generations when offense was buffed massively where tons of really powerful things still roamed free in their tiers despite fitting the whole "nothing can wall it" criteria. That being said, what really prohibits us from taking said approach? 

 

I'm trying to change your mindset on what you really should see as a defining "Uber". Given that you've said that you've always been convinced that anything "unwallable", fits that criteria. Rhydon isn't necessarily walled by SubDisable Gengar depending on whether or not it uses Rock Blast, although I suppose no one uses it, nor does Slowbro really appreciate getting hit by two Choice Band Megahorns to the head. Even if these things do actually take a hit, they don't take it as well as a legitimate counter would. In fact, nothing really does. You're kinda picking at counters here since I can refer to the fact that Charizard's SunnyBeam set shrekts those two Waters and the fact that Marowak now gets either Fire or ThunderPunch to hit Skarm reliably with. Either way, all this isn't really relevant, given that the approach that you're trying to portray with Gengar, by definition, isn't really "unwallable" to begin with. Gengar isn't a nuclear bomb like the Dragons are. It's just got some many options you don't know what it's going to do without potentially putting yourself in this "tremendous risk". 

 

Yes, Gengar isn't specific to one role, but does Gengar do everything in one set at the same time? I guess Will-O-Wisp/Taunt and dual STAB itself sounds pretty brutal, but this is kinda easily taken out by an aggressive Blissey and Gengar has to take risks when it comes into a Snorlax especially if it's Choice Banded or carries something like Whirlwind. I'm not one to judge plays, but under the assumption your Snorlax has Rest, staying in even if you were burned would may have possibly been the better move, since you can kinda get how a Gengar set is as you gradually pick up the moves. Against Gengar, you kinda need to know what will bring the least risk, which is a pretty important factor in deciding anything, even against a simple Choice Bander. I'm sorry to be blunt with you, but infavourable situations against Gengar, is, portrayable to some degree, a result of an error of judgement. Pokemon, especially in more offensive tiers, are heavily reliant on judgement and good plays, which are relevant on both spectrums. This is a test of a player's skill, and is this versatile tool that forces you to think something that should be abolished since there should be no risk? There's a difference between," I know what he's gonna do, but he can still shrekt me"(in the case of the Dragons) and "I don't know what he has yet, so I should be careful if I don't wanna get shrekt". If you're one to twist your head fast, think about what would benefit the team built around Gengar to think of it's possible moves.  Not a lot boast to wall everything it gets to shove out, but Gengar can't hide all of it's moves forever, nor can it single-handedly dominate an entire enemy team usually. Go against it's utility with an offensive approach and if available have a Special tank balance between both offense and utility. It's kind of like cracking the hard shell of a nut with your hands instead of expecting a non-existent nutcracker to come to your aid. 

 

Gengar only cripples walls with it's own utility, and variants that don't have Taunt are debatably easier to respond with.  I suppose Taunt is now mandatory or top common on Gengar now? Gengar is not, and never, an immediate death sentence to walls. I suppose excluding Perish Song, but Gengar doesn't necessarily always get to kill your Special wall, even if it gets the free turn of it responding to it, an issue more notable against say Snorlax. Gengar has the versatility but not the power to single handedly eliminate them reliably. I don't see how the game necessarily immediately ends just because one is taking the natural, although in Gengar's case more risky, gamble of judgement that is inevitable and existent in any game. 

 

This shouldn't derail to Linoone. We shouldn't talk about the influences after it's banning when there's not even a clear definition on why it should be banned in the first place. The most obvious bans if you want to take that route would go to Snorlax and Heracross having lost a common and significant check, which would flip the OU meta into something new. 

 

The problem here is that there isn't anything that is so hyper offensive that gengar needs to worry about as it outpaces most  physical attackers so it can just wow your physical attacker to death.

 

Choice Band Rhydon is a little meh and therefore gets countered by weezing. So running an effective wallcore of the two solves the problem. But I get where you're coming from. You're right about SunnyBeam wrecking Vaporeon so what you can do is wish stall the sun or go to your special wall which solves the problem. There is no risk here in scouting out the moveset unlike the case of Gengar. Fair point on Marowak though.

 

Unlike the dragons, Gengar has very few weaknesses. Ice is common in OU since almost any bulky water can learn it and Dragons have a 4x weakness to it thus making it easier to kill unlike Gengar.

 

I think the set my opponent ran was wow / taunt / sball / sludgebomb, which like you said, is brutal. Steelix walls this nicely but taunt prevents roar and once you're burnt, I don't think iron tail breaks sub either.

 

I get your stance Noir and I appreciate the input. Now I'd like to see what others also have to say.

 

Excelimpulse, on 23 Mar 2015 - 4:48 PM, said:

Why don't we just ban everything so we don't have an ou tier?

All seriousness any pursuit trapper with lum stops it and revenge kills it.

Aerodactyl comes to mind. Either cb rs will kill or pursuit will on the switch out of it decides to run.

And when it comes it's about surviving it. Once u find out the set gengar has weaknesses just like snorkax.

My favorite set on gengar is sub sbomb sball hp fire.

I find it devistating but blissey shuts it down if it can get a twave on it or doesn't get poisoned.

 

I've bolded a part of the OP just for you Excel.

Edited March 23, 2015 by NikhilR

[ShucklePwnz]

Gengar burns Snorlax, I deal very little damage with Fire Punch.

Gotta get that Crunch kappa.

If you run Crunch you get walled by Steels, if you run Fire Punch you get walled by Gengar and Dusclops, you can't just have perfect coverage.

 

I think the set my opponent ran was wow / taunt / pain split / sludgebomb.

This set gives free switches to other Gengars or camerupt bulky Starmie which can be a problem sometimes, and it won't outspeed these because it sucks without Bulk.

 

I'm kinda biased towards Gengar but in my honest opinion it's what keeps the meta balanced to physical attackers, if it's gone then Normal, Fighting and Ground spam could be problematic.

[Gunthug]

I've bolded a part in the OP just for you.

EDIT: Sorry I double posted by accident.

I know his stubbornness can be frustrating sometimes, believe me, I really do. But it's really important that everyone has the chance to give their input on these threads.

[Excelimpulse]

I know his stubbornness can be frustrating sometimes, believe me, I really do. But it's really important that everyone has the chance to give their input on these threads.

I love you Edited March 23, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[Kragore]

NiK has pointed out the most powerful attribute of Gengar in that its movepool and deceptively versatile base stats crown it the jack of all trades.  Being a jack of all trades though leaves it a master of none and that is where lies Gengar's weakness.  While every set listed creates its own imposing threat every set has one or more large coverage holes.  I do understand that you may/will take some punishment in the process of uncovering a Gengar's move set but the same could be said of most pokemon.  I agree that Gengar is powerful but i do not believe it is deserving of a ban because once you figure out the move set on it there is very little chance that you don't have something on your team that checks or counters it.

[Artemiseta]

stab cb rs from a jolly aer will not kill gengar all the time. it is close if thre is no investment in bulk of any sorf. but gengar can choose to run bulk on it

with 4 def investment 91.1% - 107.4% from a  stab cb aero RS

tbolt ont eh other hand with alittle sp at invest is guaranteed 1 shot.

gengar can go full bulk and then only take maybe 55% damage form aero rs and still buurn it and with 0 spa tt invest 73.5% - 87.7% from tbolt

also aero is not a counter it would be a check because with some damage gengar will die.

[Vaeldras]

Gengar adds variety to our meta, i guess you guys REALLY want a stall meta where you can exactly tell what your opponent's next move will be.

This thing can't set up, can be pursuit trapped (if it has sub/punch your pursuit user will only have to tank a weak hit, unless your running curselax, because even a regular snorlax could afford to take a punch from gengar).

It can be ohko'd by a countless amount of pokemon (aerodactyl, snorlax, ursaring, kazam, slowbro, gyarados. etc) always depending on the circumstances ofc.

It is good, it's a viable ghost, it makes battles more unpredictable, and it's really far from being unstoppable, with any possible set you could think of.

 

It's not a tyranitar/heracross-like versatility , all of gengar's sets are easily stopped by some pokemon, and again, it won't setup and sweep your whole team, it can't.

 

It's not one of those strong pokemon that will force you to run gimmick sets on every team you have just to have a chance to check it, it's a strong and extremely useful poke that, imho, helps our meta in being more versatile, without overcentralizing, since there's no incredibly relevant and scary gengar set.

 

So it doesn't really affect team building that much, just some movesets, but the same could be said of every strong ou pokemon.

 

This is my opinion, i'm trying not to be biased, but i'll admit that without this pokemon i wouldn't even be playing ou.

I just love the versatility of ghost pokes (both of them  :rolleyes: ), they will always be a must on my team, but that won't stop me from aknowledging when something is broken.

 

 

Edit: I didn't consider will o wisp when talking about the sub punch set, i should reconsider that specific set

Edited March 23, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Excelimpulse]

stab cb rs from a jolly aer will not kill gengar all the time. it is close if thre is no investment in bulk of any sorf. but gengar can choose to run bulk on it
with 4 def investment 91.1% - 107.4% from a stab cb aero RS
tbolt ont eh other hand with alittle sp at invest is guaranteed 1 shot.
gengar can go full bulk and then only take maybe 55% damage form aero rs and still buurn it and with 0 spa tt invest 73.5% - 87.7% from tbolt
also aero is not a counter it would be a check because with some damage gengar will die.

Before you start doing those bs calcs, do the calcs again on gengar tbolt. Because gengar doesn't ohko aero with FULL spec att investment.

[Vaeldras]

Before you start doing those bs calcs, do the calcs again on gengar tbolt. Because gengar doesn't ohko aero with FULL spec att investment.

 

Gengar Thunderbolt vs. Aerodactyl: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

Meh, i wouldn't send it against gengar

 

Edit: Timid 252 sp att and speed

Edited March 23, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Excelimpulse]

Gengar Thunderbolt vs. Aerodactyl: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Meh, i wouldn't send it against gengar

Edit: Timid 252 sp att and speed

I'm saying revenge kill it or a lead match up.

[Artemiseta]

oops. tho gengar doesn't need full speed speed it cant do that. so it can run modest. and what will happen when gengar kills something behind a sub.aero remains a check because of that.

might I make a suggestion and leave ur tude at the door brah I made a mistake. I said it was a check and it still remains one especially if it is a defense one which will cripple aero.

[JSTUD]

"Something that cannot be walled is Uber" isn't really right, to put down an example, in ORAS OU you can't wall effectivly Mega Medicham (except mega sablaye, forgot that shit exists, yet in XY nothing walled it ), but it is still OU....altho, that's a different meta and all, the point is, it cannot sweep with little effort ( debeatable imo tho ), so doesn't deserve a ban


About Gengar, it's indeed a top threat in OU....but i'm not really conviced about its Uber traits yet

 

Not sure if you ever played ORAS OU, but there's this thing called Mew that ultimately made Mega Medicham become non-existent in the metagame.

[Excelimpulse]

oops. tho gengar doesn't need full speed speed it cant do that. so it can run modest. and what will happen when gengar kills something behind a sub.aero remains a check because of that.
might I make a suggestion and leave ur tude at the door brah I made a mistake. I said it was a check and it still remains one especially if it is a defense one which will cripple aero.

Obviously the last post was just another comment like everyone else to try and bash me and make me look like an idiot Or those calcs would have been on point and wouldn't have jumped to conclude that gengar ohks. And you can also say what if aero runs adamant .And if gengar doesn't run full speed other gengars force it out. And you can play the what if game for years in this anymore. I can say what if aero flinches gengar and half of your team. Edited March 23, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DrCraig]

Obviously the last post was just another comment like everyone else to try and bash me and make me look like an idiot Or those calcs would have been on point and wouldn't have jumped to conclude that gengar ohks. And you can also say what if aero runs adamant .And if gengar doesn't run full speed other gengars force it out. And you can play the what if game for years in this anymore. I can say what if aero flinches gengar and half of your team.

This is a lot of nothing^

 

Aero would be a borderline check imo

Even with revenge killing I wouldn't want to mispredict because Gengar could

a ) Switch out on your rock slide / crunch (and like, not die)

b ) Stay in on your pursuit (wall you)

In which your Aero will probably die or get crippled, not worth it imo

Gengars versatility makes it tricky, especially bulky sets

Edited March 23, 2015 by DrCraig