[OU Discussion] Gengar

[londark]

Not sure if you ever played ORAS OU, but there's this thing called Mew that ultimately made Mega Medicham become non-existent in the metagame.

 

Haven't played much latelly in OU, but i've played it quite a lot in the first days, and have played a lot of XY...The old variants of Mew, Stall Breaker, Hazzard Setter and the Offensive risk to get 2hko by either HJK or Return unless heavy invested in Def and Hp, in that case, considering how most Mew used to run uninvested Knock Off weren't able to break a Sub from Medicham, that was faster as well and could block the wisp....Don't know what kind of mew is used right now, but in XY, most variats didn't really wall it hard. 

 

Point was, you could not exactly wall safelly M-Medicham ( let's say in XY ), but it had other flaws, quite a lot, from someone that use it in almost every team, that prevented it from beeing even close to beeing banned. Beeing Unwallable alone isn't a good reason to ban something if it can't take advantages from it and breaking the meta 

 

 

End OT

[Excelimpulse]

This is a lot of nothing^

Aero would be a borderline check imo
Even with revenge killing I wouldn't want to mispredict because Gengar could
a ) Switch out on your rock slide / crunch (and like, not die)
b ) Stay in on your pursuit (wall you)
In which your Aero will probably die or get crippled, not worth it imo
Gengars versatility makes it tricky, especially bulky sets

Exactly a lot of what if statements from everyone. That's a lot of nothing when I start seeing what if poke b Is this set and poke a doesn't stop it.

Everything I see is nothing and all speculation on what if statements because the community has grown and learned to use more then one set. In gengars case 10+.

You can play the what if game on genfar also if willo misses.

Either way like a few people has stated, once u find out which gengar it is, it's walled.

[DrCraig]

Exactly a lot of what if statements from everyone. That's a lot of nothing when I start seeing what if poke b Is this set and poke a doesn't stop it.

Everything I see is nothing and all speculation on what if statements because the community has grown and learned to use more then one set. In gengars case 10+.

Either way like a few people has stated, once u find out which gengar it is, it's walled.

Well there will be a lot of "If...Then" statements because 

breaking news

Gengar is the most versatile pokemon in the OU tier

 

 

You can play the what if game on genfar also if willo misses.

How does this hold any weight in an argument to keep Gengar? This is the equivalent of saying, "Let's keep Heracross OU because when megahorn misses you die." The point is to assume it always hits for the sake of argument.

[JSTUD]

Haven't played much latelly in OU, but i've played it quite a lot in the first days, and have played a lot of XY...The old variants of Mew, Stall Breaker, Hazzard Setter and the Offensive risk to get 2hko by either HJK or Return unless heavy invested in Def and Hp, in that case, considering how most Mew used to run uninvested Knock Off weren't able to break a Sub from Medicham, that was faster as well and could block the wisp....Don't know what kind of mew is used right now, but in XY, most variats didn't really wall it hard. 

 

Point was, you could not exactly wall safelly M-Medicham ( let's say in XY ), but it had other flaws, quite a lot, from someone that use it in almost every team, that prevented it from beeing even close to beeing banned. Beeing Unwallable alone isn't a good reason to ban something if it can't take advantages from it and breaking the meta 

 

 

End OT

 

I'm talking about 8 months ago when Aegislash got banned and Mega-Medicham rose for a bit, simultaneously defensive Mew rose and put out that fire quick. If your Mega-Medicham was 2hkoing Mews, you were probably playing low ranked/bad players because Mew can just softboil and let Mega-Medicham ko himself from eventually missing + sub damage. No good player ran return and half the time Mega-Medicham was killing himself due to how prevalent protect is.

 

tldr; your analogy is no bueno, mega-medicham killed himself too often.

 

Source: Top 10 Player on showdown at the time.

Edited March 23, 2015 by JSTUD

[londark]

 

 

the fact that M-Medicham killed itself too often is one of the flaws i talked about..I wouldn't exactly call 1800 ( think i reached max of 1823, need to look for the replay in the Thread ) low rank to be honest.

 

To stay on topic...Specially Defensive Lanturn does a decent job at taking gengars lacking Giga Drain...something like 88 Hp / +252 Sp.Def is only 4HKO by Sludge Bomb while uninvested Surf/TBolt does around 40% ( rest of the EVs can go wherever ), while having access to 2 nice STABs to hit the ghost. It also does a decent job at tanking special threats like Jolteon and Starmie..Poison is a problem altho it has Heal Bell

[Artemiseta]

craig u are right it is a semi check because it becomes a guessing game. with crunch then gengar could leave if pursuit gengar could stay (especially bulky versions which I see being a lot more popuar at the moment) at the same time an untimely aero RS miss could destroy any chance aero has at winning.

ive been debating what to run on my aero recently because u lose good coverage by switching out a move. only thing I as able to think of was replacing double edge but then u lose a hard hitting move when u don't know what to do

gengar can check another one but then that doesn't solve the problem that we have here trying to determine if it is Uber or not

the trick is to determine what set the gengar is running but this an be at the cost of one or more of your own pokemon which could be crucial in a battle

[Gunthug]

 

gengar can check another one but then that doesn't solve the problem that we have here trying to determine if it is Uber or not

 

It's amazing how often I'll find myself sending in my gengar v. a gengar in an OU battle and rolling the dice on the speed tie. Certain sets cause me to do this more often, though...especially curse/pain split sets. I think they give my personal team archetype more trouble than most, so it's not really helpful for the discussion. But, my point is, Gengar is very scary. This may be healthy for the meta though...there should be pokes that, when used right, make you sweat.

 

I think this'll be one of the more important discussions we have about OU as we continue to shape this relatively new meta. I'll add some more thoughts later but this is all I got for now

[TJXD]

Gengar definitely warrants its 'S' rank but barring unpredictability of sets I dont think its immediately ban worthy, Im an extreme novice in these discussions so sorry in advance.

The most common set I run into vs an experienced player is Bulky Gengar-Willowisp,Tbolt,Sub,Punch, and the other sets you listed in the OP are fairly common as well, My opinion on it right now is once you know what set your up against its not hard to play around , but the cost of finding out what set could amount to losing a pokemon at times and this is where I see your problem but I don't think its a great argument as to why it should be banned other than there is no way to completely wall out or be prepared to play perfectly safe against a gengar (Unless you know what set it is)so its not healthy for the meta. 

Doesnt warrant one yet imo

Edited March 23, 2015 by TJXD

[Shaniqualela]

Not sure if gengar is too strong, or if most other things are too weak because of missing moves/items.

It still has a few things that check it pretty decently.
Houndoom can take everything but sludge bomb/focus punch (easier said than done though, you have to catch it on a double switch or it'll be behind a sub) and pursuit it.
(Before you say houndoom sucks, mixed sets with endure/pursuit/reversal/flamethrower or support with destiny bond are still good)
Whirlwind snorlax is super common now and can phase it out and give you a chance to have a more favorable position against it later, with a faster Pokemon that can KO it.
Guts users that can take a hit are nice to come in on w-o-w.

I'd like to see more stuff implemented (choice scarf mostly) to help deal with it

But as for now I'm on the fence about it, looking forward to seeing more discussion

Edited March 24, 2015 by Shaniqualela

[DrCraig]

I'd say Houndoom is risky as fuck because an offensive Gengar destroys it. That is a situation where you can scout for the moveset, but then what use does your Houndoom have? Other than pursuit trapping its limited.

Snorlax vs. Gengar is just a boring W-o-W/Painsplit spam

[Robofiend]

Some introductory thoughts:

 

Gengar is insanely versatile and annoying, and its high usage % speaks to the fact that it's an amazingly good add to OU teams. Besides having the best special sweeping move pool in OU and the ability to stop physical threats like Snorlax (who can Pursuit trap other sweepers) it also boasts an amazing amount of support capability to shut down more niche counters. Sub-disable is well known for forcing switches and racking up Spikes damage, Sub-Perish Song quickly takes out a Blissey or Snorlax (without WW) and Destiny Bond is a tried and true annoying way to take down a gutsy Heracross or other slower physical attacker (yes, Guts pun was intentional). 

 

But is it Uber?

 

It's hard to say whether Gengar actually can sweep a significant portion of the tier, it needs Focus Punch + Taunt/Disable to take out Curselax, can't really stop Blissey from Ice Beaming its sub away, and can't do a lot to Defensive Porygon2, even with Focus Punch. Houndoom and Arcanine are both pretty stronk counters, since they have marginal special bulk and can run Crunch or Pursuit to shut down non-Punch sets. Heracross isn't even that afraid, since Psychic is rare and fails to OHKO it, and it can take advantage of moves like Will-O-Wisp to get the dreaded boost. Shadowball is a great move on paper, but is so well resisted by special walls that it doesn't really serve a purpose, while Sludge Bomb absolutely has to be paired with Tbolt to guarantee coverage against Skarmory.

 

There's no doubt that it's an amazing pokemon, one of the tier's S ranks, but I'm not sure if I can see it being Uber. I guess I'll have to meditate on that.

 

As for the "ban or not ban" arguments, here are some thoughts:

 

1. If you want Gengar to be banned, show us that it is Uber from a Offensive/Support standpoint: it either must support teammates so well that it can generate setup or sweep opportunities for teammates with ease or it must actually be able to sweep so well that there is little hope of stopping it from taking a pokemon or two once it gets into play.

 

2. The presence of counters is not, has not, and won't be a criterion for banning things as far as I know. Ever since the original Curselax ban, we've been stressing that even things that can be countered can be Uber, and sometimes things that have very few checks/counters actually aren't Uber. Even if something is "unwallable," it's not necessarily Uber, although it can be both.

 

A better example: 6th gen Belly Drum Azumarill or SD M-Pinsir. Once safely in play with a likely switch (which is harder than it sounds, but just hear me out), either of these Pokemon can set up and smash through almost any wall in the tier with their single turn of set up. The things that usually stop them, (Pinsir: Lando/Scarf Tyranitar, Thunderus; Azu: Lati, Keldeo, M-Venusaur) can be beat by either predicting the switch and hitting them with pre-Mega Return/CC or Play Rough+Return. 

 

3. Sometimes scouting is really important: some pokemon are easier to beat if you know what they're running. Other times, like in the case of 6th gen Greninja, you need to scout/predict REALLY well in order to figure out what you're up against and still be left with a reasonably healthy team. It might be that Gengar is one of those pokes too, but I'm having a little trouble seeing that, since most of the time you know more or less what it's going to do (Sub and being annoying and hard to kill).

Edited March 25, 2015 by Robofiend

[NikhilR]

Some awesome discussion going on. I'll give my reply to all the posts as soon as I can :)

[Shaniqualela]

I'd say Houndoom is risky as fuck because an offensive Gengar destroys it. That is a situation where you can scout for the moveset, but then what use does your Houndoom have? Other than pursuit trapping its limited.

Snorlax vs. Gengar is just a boring W-o-W/Painsplit spam

with houndoom its a prediction game. (and hopefully no sludge bomb poison hax)

if its gonna attack, pursuit, then endure and activate salac, then pursuit again.

if its gonna switch out, pursuit.

[NikhilR]

Gotta get that Crunch kappa.

If you run Crunch you get walled by Steels, if you run Fire Punch you get walled by Gengar and Dusclops, you can't just have perfect coverage.

 

This set gives free switches to other Gengars or camerupt bulky Starmie which can be a problem sometimes, and it won't outspeed these because it sucks without Bulk.

 

I'm kinda biased towards Gengar but in my honest opinion it's what keeps the meta balanced to physical attackers, if it's gone then Normal, Fighting and Ground spam could be problematic.

 

It's not about coverage. It's about the damage it does and how Gengar can take advantage it. 

 

About the free switch in part, it's not going to be that easy to predict since you won't know beforehand about Gengar running painsplit until it is at low health. And would you really risk sending out starmie into a gengar which could carry a Shadowball?

 

Misdreavus, Weezing, Slowbro are all nice answers to fight/ground spam.

 

I know his stubbornness can be frustrating sometimes, believe me, I really do. But it's really important that everyone has the chance to give their input on these threads.

 

Fair enough, it was my mistake.

 

I love you

But I honestly have been saying why is gengar never discussed so I'm actually really interested on this one.

The one thing that holds me back from the straight ban is being trapped now. and if anything faster or bulkier that can take hit, can force it out pretty quick.

Unlike the dragons, gengar is frail and anything neutral cb can take it out. yes the dragons have the ice beam flying everywhere but anything else can't really 1 ohko it. Maybe a rs cb aero and that's about it.

I just think gengar puts the most pressure on everyone out of anything we have and it's because of the amount of different mkvesets we have.

 

Give me an example of a pokemon that is faster than gengar and can take a hit and as a result force a switch out. Anything bulkier can take a hit but need not necessarily force the switch out. which is what I've been trying to say. 

 

If a gengar decides to stay in on your Aero pursuit, it does lesser damage than a cb rock slide which means that gengar can burn you and may be then eventually kill you.

 

Gengar adds variety to our meta, i guess you guys REALLY want a stall meta where you can exactly tell what your opponent's next move will be.

This thing can't set up, can be pursuit trapped (if it has sub/punch your pursuit user will only have to tank a weak hit, unless your running curselax, because even a regular snorlax could afford to take a punch from gengar).

It can be ohko'd by a countless amount of pokemon (aerodactyl, snorlax, ursaring, kazam, slowbro, gyarados. etc) always depending on the circumstances ofc.

It is good, it's a viable ghost, it makes battles more unpredictable, and it's really far from being unstoppable, with any possible set you could think of.

 

It's not a tyranitar/heracross-like versatility , all of gengar's sets are easily stopped by some pokemon, and again, it won't setup and sweep your whole team, it can't.

 

It's not one of those strong pokemon that will force you to run gimmick sets on every team you have just to have a chance to check it, it's a strong and extremely useful poke that, imho, helps our meta in being more versatile, without overcentralizing, since there's no incredibly relevant and scary gengar set.

 

So it doesn't really affect team building that much, just some movesets, but the same could be said of every strong ou pokemon.

 

This is my opinion, i'm trying not to be biased, but i'll admit that without this pokemon i wouldn't even be playing ou.

I just love the versatility of ghost pokes (both of them  :rolleyes: ), they will always be a must on my team, but that won't stop me from aknowledging when something is broken.

 

 

Edit: I didn't consider will o wisp when talking about the sub punch set, i should reconsider that specific set

 

There will always be ways to find variety. But when you run op pokes like gengar / lax / heracross, the meta loses variety because these pokes are too good to not use, so that defeats the whole purpose. It's not just finding out what my opponent's next move is going to be, it's about finding out what my opponent's next move is going to be without having something get killed in the process. The thing is gengar may not be able to set up, but it can prevent set ups/force switches out continuously. I don't think I can ask more from that. If you think Gengar is far from unstoppable then my only feeling is that you haven't played some of the really good duellers out there who know how to make the best out of Gengar. 

 

Obviously the last post was just another comment like everyone else to try and bash me and make me look like an idiot Or those calcs would have been on point and wouldn't have jumped to conclude that gengar ohks. And you can also say what if aero runs adamant .And if gengar doesn't run full speed other gengars force it out. And you can play the what if game for years in this anymore. I can say what if aero flinches gengar and half of your team.

 

No one would ever run an adamant CB aero. The full speed gengars are mainly your non-bulky ones which any special wall can safely switch into. Flinching etc. are a part of hax and they aren't taken into consideration

 

 

It's amazing how often I'll find myself sending in my gengar v. a gengar in an OU battle and rolling the dice on the speed tie. Certain sets cause me to do this more often, though...especially curse/pain split sets. I think they give my personal team archetype more trouble than most, so it's not really helpful for the discussion. But, my point is, Gengar is very scary. This may be healthy for the meta though...there should be pokes that, when used right, make you sweat.

 

I think this'll be one of the more important discussions we have about OU as we continue to shape this relatively new meta. I'll add some more thoughts later but this is all I got for now

 

 

Clearly one of the better posts in the thread. Looking forward to hearing more.

 

 

Not sure if gengar is too strong, or if most other things are too weak because of missing moves/items.

It still has a few things that check it pretty decently.
Houndoom can take everything but sludge bomb/focus punch (easier said than done though, you have to catch it on a double switch or it'll be behind a sub) and pursuit it.
(Before you say houndoom sucks, mixed sets with endure/pursuit/reversal/flamethrower or support with destiny bond are still good)
Whirlwind snorlax is super common now and can phase it out and give you a chance to have a more favorable position against it later, with a faster Pokemon that can KO it.
Guts users that can take a hit are nice to come in on w-o-w.

I'd like to see more stuff implemented (choice scarf mostly) to help deal with it

But as for now I'm on the fence about it, looking forward to seeing more discussion

 

 

I've listed out taunt as one of the moves in a bulky gar set which I'm quite sure of can beat lax or blissey 1v1.

 

This is basically the kind of scenario I'm at. Assuming that this discussion results in Gengar not being banned, I'll be forced to change my play style to a bit more offensive so that I can limit the switch in opportunities for gengar which would more or less mean not running Heracross/Snorlax. So here I'm being forced to run a particular style not to get rekt by Gar. The other solution could be to run a pursuit houndoom, which is hopefully faster and gets the kill. Ultimately I'll lose only one poke in the process so it's a safer option. 

 

I'd say Houndoom is risky as fuck because an offensive Gengar destroys it. That is a situation where you can scout for the moveset, but then what use does your Houndoom have? Other than pursuit trapping its limited.

Snorlax vs. Gengar is just a boring W-o-W/Painsplit spam

 

This. Running a houndoom would serve only one purpose, which is to beat Gengar. 

 

----------------------------------

 

Robo, I'll reply back to your post soon :)

Edited March 24, 2015 by NikhilR

[Vaeldras]

It's not about coverage. It's about the damage it does and how Gengar can take advantage it. 

 

About the free switch in part, it's not going to be that easy to predict since you won't know beforehand about Gengar running painsplit until it is at low health. And would you really risk sending out starmie into a gengar which could carry a Shadowball?

 

Misdreavus, Weezing, Slowbro are all nice answers to fight/ground spam.

 

 

Fair enough, it was my mistake.

 

 

Give me an example of a pokemon that is faster than gengar and can take a hit and as a result force a switch out. Anything bulkier can take a hit but need not necessarily force the switch out. which is what I've been trying to say. 

 

If a gengar decides to stay in on your Aero pursuit, it does lesser damage than a cb rock slide which means that gengar can burn you and may be then eventually kill you.

 

 

There will always be ways to find variety. But when you run op pokes like gengar / lax / heracross, the meta loses variety because these pokes are too good to not use, so that defeats the whole purpose. It's not just finding out what my opponent's next move is going to be, it's about finding out what my opponent's next move is going to be without having something get killed in the process. The thing is gengar may not be able to set up, but it can prevent set ups/force switches out continuously. I don't think I can ask more from that. If you think Gengar is far from unstoppable then my only feeling is that you haven't played some of the really good duellers out there who know how to make the best out of Gengar. 

 

 

No one would ever run an adamant CB aero. The full speed gengars are mainly your non-bulky ones which any special wall can safely switch into. Flinching etc. are a part of hax and they aren't taken into consideration

 

 

 

 

Clearly one of the better posts in the thread. Looking forward to hearing more.

 

 

 

I've listed out taunt as one of the moves in a bulky gar set which I'm quite sure of can beat lax or blissey 1v1.

 

This is basically the kind of scenario I'm at. Assuming that this discussion results in Gengar not being banned, I'll be forced to change my play style to a bit more offensive so that I can limit the switch in opportunities for gengar which would more or less mean not running Heracross/Snorlax. So here I'm being forced to run a particular style not to get rekt by Gar. The other solution could be to run a pursuit houndoom, which is hopefully faster and gets the kill. Ultimately I'll lose only one poke in the process so it's a safer option. 

 

 

This. Running a houndoom would serve only one purpose, which is to beat Gengar. 

 

----------------------------------

 

Robo, I'll reply back to your post soon :)

 

It' just that with it's versatility you're likely to find a set you're gonna adore, that surely increases it's usage

For example, i'd never use gengar without pain split, because that's the only set i have fun with, i'd rather run...swag jolteon?

And unlike heracross you don't actually need to run a specific pokemon to counter it, so it doesn't limit team building, nor it's needed to have a good team.

You can definitely replace it with something else, while snorlax on the other hand is a must for every team. Not the same case imo.

Ive seen it doing some amazing stuff recently, but what made it possible was always the surprise element, so gengar is not broken in itself.

 

It's up to tastes until someone posts some calcs to prove gengar is actually broken.

It's a weird pokemon to define, but definitely an s rank.

[ShucklePwnz]

It's not about coverage. It's about the damage it does and how Gengar can take advantage it. 

 

About the free switch in part, it's not going to be that easy to predict since you won't know beforehand about Gengar running painsplit until it is at low health. And would you really risk sending out starmie into a gengar which could carry a Shadowball?

 

Misdreavus, Weezing, Slowbro are all nice answers to fight/ground spam.

Sometimes you must take risks, the game isn't all about safe switches.  Its not only Gengar who is dangerous if you don't know the set, there's a couple more Pokémon who can have 2 or more sets that scouting may make you lose the game or sack something, its part of the game.

 

And>Misdreavus.

Weezing and Slowbro are nice, but the difference is that they are a wall, and IMO the game shouldn't rely only on walls for switches against sweepers, fragile pokémon with resistences and immunities also exists and Gengar is one of them.  Gengar is one of the Pokémon who keeps the gameplay more diverse rather than Walls switching on Sweepers and Sweepers switching on Walls all day.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ShucklePwnz

[Noad]

I apologise Nik, but I have edited your first post. While I understand it can be be incredibly frustrating to be exposed to posts that at some times seem nonsensical, we will not be censoring individuals from being able to post their opinions in tiering discussions. Our meta is shaped by the community and this means everyone is entitled to an opinion and it will continue to remain this way. If anyone sees a post that does not contribute at all to the topic at hand and shouldn't be there, please report it and myself or another Comp Alley mod will deal with it. 

 

I've seen some great discussion going on in this thread so keep it up and good job on the write up Nik! :)

[DoubleJ]

I apologise Nik, but I have edited your first post. While I understand it can be be incredibly frustrating to be exposed to posts that at some times seem nonsensical, we will not be censoring individuals from being able to post their opinions in tiering discussions. Our meta is shaped by the community and this means everyone is entitled to an opinion and it will continue to remain this way. If anyone sees a post that does not contribute at all to the topic at hand and shouldn't be there, please report it and myself or another Comp Alley mod will deal with it.

I've seen some great discussion going on in this thread so keep it up and good job on the write up Nik! :)

Why you have to derail this thread like that?

The problem with Gengar is that not only does it have very few true counters (none?), it also had very few checks. You can cripple your team just by trying to figure out the moveset and build of one of these things. Gengar is very dangerous in our meta.

[Excelimpulse]

Why you have to derail this thread like that?

The problem with Gengar is that not only does it have very few true counters (none?), it also had very few checks. You can cripple your team just by trying to figure out the moveset and build of one of these things. Gengar is very dangerous in our meta.

So whenever your opponent thinks he can send weezing in on metagross thinking it's safe check and gets psychic in the face it means it should be banned to because you don't know what set it coukd running. Or think swamoert checks it and little do you know it runs hp grass.
.So just because you don't know what set a poke is means it should be banned now? Or even discussed for that matter?

[DrCraig]

So whenever your opponent thinks he can send weezing in on metagross thinking it's safe check and gets psychic in the face it means it should be banned to because you don't know what set it coukd running. Or think swamoert checks it and little do you know it runs hp grass.
.So just because you don't know what set a poke is means it should be banned now? Or even discussed for that matter?

Running odd movesets like Psychic metagross expose it to being walled better and blah blah blah thats like running Focus Punch Grumpig to kill dark types. It may happen, it may not, but it isnt common. Gengar doesnt have a prominently common set imo. Dont oversimplify peoples replies, he was just making an overall statement. Chill.

[Excelimpulse]

Running odd movesets like Psychic metagross expose it to being walled better and blah blah blah thats like running Focus Punch Grumpig to kill dark types. It may happen, it may not, but it isnt common. Gengar doesnt have a prominently common set imo. Dont oversimplify peoples replies, he was just making an overall statement. Chill.

Hey I just do what people do to me.

And please tell me what mixed set metagross is walled by? Because imo I have 5 different sets just like gengar and all serve different purposes just like gengar. So I honestly don't see the difference because gengars sets all get walled by something just like you say metagross mix sets can but until you find out it might be to late.

Bottom line you can do this for a lot of threats but if that's what causes bans now then We gonna have a wonderful ou coming our way. Edited March 24, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DoubleJ]

So whenever your opponent thinks he can send weezing in on metagross thinking it's safe check and gets psychic in the face it means it should be banned to because you don't know what set it coukd running. Or think swamoert checks it and little do you know it runs hp grass.
.So just because you don't know what set a poke is means it should be banned now? Or even discussed for that matter?

 

Hey I just do what people do to me.
 

 

And people wonder why we don't like discussing tiers with you.

 

It's not that Gengar has 1-2 viable movesets. It has upwards of 8+ that are all equally as deadly. With this much coverage it can cripple the entire meta, meaning when you try to play around a Gengar (because it lacks a true counter), you run the risk of being hit with status or a very strong attack (Base 130 SpAtt). This isn't a bad thing so to speak since the goal of the game is simply to beat your opponent. What becomes a problem though is when Gengar provides its user with what I believe to be an unfair advantage. It's variability extends beyond normalcy within our meta and reaches toward the point of uber.

 

Explosion. Destiny Bond.

 

Both of which are pretty broken moves in my opinion on something this fast.

 

Will-o-Wisp + Pain Split. 

 

Not the bulkiest critter around but with those resistances and just enough bulk to be a pain in the ass, thing thing can live and live and live all while wearing your team down to the point of "I quit". 

 

Shadow Ball + Sludge Bomb.

 

Two strong stabs that can OHKO --> 2HKO a lot of commonly used pokemon.

 

Access to damn near everything else in the game.

 

Good luck trying to figure out this Gengar's moveset. You were just burned, lost half your health switching in, and then were exploded on before you even saw that 4th move. 

 

This is something that is ultimately going to come down to the OU Council. The scary thing with removing Gengar is that you remove a strong defensive presence. It's typing allows for substantial resistances and immunities to some of the strongest attacks in the game (Normal, Ground, Fighting). This isn't an argument to keep it, just something I'd like to point out. Removing Gengar means those STAB Superpowers could become a bigger problem.

 

On the flip side of this coin though is that Gengar has some really amazing immunities. 

 

 

[DrCraig]

Hey I just do what people do to me.

And please tell me what mixed set metagross is walled by? 

Slowbro, for one.

 

 

Because imo I have 5 different sets just like gengar and all serve different purposes just like gengar. So I honestly don't see the difference because gengars sets all get walled by something just like you say metagross mix sets can but until you find out it might be to late.

Bottom line you can do this for a lot of threats but if that's what causes bans now then We gonna have a wonderful ou coming our way.

Gengar =/= Metagross

 

I can argue that I have an infinite number of Smeargle sets, and it will not be viewed ban worthy. You are over simplifying the situation a bit, just like I am for Smeargle. I'd suggest making a Metagross discussion if it just cannot be walled. Gengar's versatility is much stronger than Metagross', and it fills many more roles, thus it is used to argue for Gengar ban. I know you see the difference in versatility between pokemon and how it can be used to there advantage. Use your knowledge to argue against or for a ban, not showcasing another pokemon who has a bunch of movesets.

[OldKeith]

Despite Gengar being a top threat, I think it is good for the meta because it forces people to use coverage moves that hit a levitating ghost. Let's imagine a scenario in which Gengar was banned...

 

Banded pokemon can resume to fighting, normal and ground moves, having perfect coverage.

Curse Snorlax can freely run Body Slam - Eq, the only pokemon resisting this being Skarmory and Aerodactyl.

Heracross would not need to run Rock Slide anymore,

 

I think Gengar is needed to tone down the offensive pools of pokemon, and it does this job pretty good.

 

Offensively, I think it lacks the capabilities to sweep the tier but it is the most mischievous pokemon out there for now.

[NikhilR]

Well there wasn't much to add to your post Robo since I didn't disagree with it.

 

It' just that with it's versatility you're likely to find a set you're gonna adore, that surely increases it's usage

For example, i'd never use gengar without pain split, because that's the only set i have fun with, i'd rather run...swag jolteon?

And unlike heracross you don't actually need to run a specific pokemon to counter it, so it doesn't limit team building, nor it's needed to have a good team.

You can definitely replace it with something else, while snorlax on the other hand is a must for every team. Not the same case imo.

Ive seen it doing some amazing stuff recently, but what made it possible was always the surprise element, so gengar is not broken in itself.

 

It's up to tastes until someone posts some calcs to prove gengar is actually broken.

It's a weird pokemon to define, but definitely an s rank.

 

The thing is that because of it's versatility, you have the option of running many sets which defeats the entire purpose of preparing a counter for the set you've scouted. 

 

Snorlax isn't a must on every team. It's a great pokemon to use but if you want a special wall, porygon, hypno (wish), blissey are all good options with better recovery than snorlax. Main downfall for these is the lack of offense.

 

Sometimes you must take risks, the game isn't all about safe switches.  Its not only Gengar who is dangerous if you don't know the set, there's a couple more Pokémon who can have 2 or more sets that scouting may make you lose the game or sack something, its part of the game.

 

And>Misdreavus.

Weezing and Slowbro are nice, but the difference is that they are a wall, and IMO the game shouldn't rely only on walls for switches against sweepers, fragile pokémon with resistences and immunities also exists and Gengar is one of them.  Gengar is one of the Pokémon who keeps the gameplay more diverse rather than Walls switching on Sweepers and Sweepers switching on Walls all day.

 

The thing is two or more pokemon will not have entirely different movesets/roles. Weezing will always counter a heracross no matter what kind of set it runs, vaporeon always counters arcanine no matter what set it runs. These will always be there. Talking about the game isn't all about being safe switches is a pointless statement, really.

 

Misdreavus is pretty amazing. The only thing bad about it compared to gengar is the lack of wow and offense but unlike gengar it has access to calm mind making the set stronger if you can take out the special wall.

 

How can you say that the game shouldn't rely on walls switching on sweepers? Because that is what a wall is supposed to do. Gengar is no way near the same as compared to other pokemon with similar base stats because of it's typing. So many immunities/resistances can make it a very good tank. 

 

Keeping gengar in order to make the meta more diverse is a bad reason to keep it, imo.

 

I apologise Nik, but I have edited your first post. While I understand it can be be incredibly frustrating to be exposed to posts that at some times seem nonsensical, we will not be censoring individuals from being able to post their opinions in tiering discussions. Our meta is shaped by the community and this means everyone is entitled to an opinion and it will continue to remain this way. If anyone sees a post that does not contribute at all to the topic at hand and shouldn't be there, please report it and myself or another Comp Alley mod will deal with it. 

 

I've seen some great discussion going on in this thread so keep it up and good job on the write up Nik! :)

 

Thank you Noad. Gunthug pointed out the same earlier and I wanted to edit it out myself but I forgot to, since I was in the middle of quoting so many people. Thanks again.

 

And people wonder why we don't like discussing tiers with you.

 

It's not that Gengar has 1-2 viable movesets. It has upwards of 8+ that are all equally as deadly. With this much coverage it can cripple the entire meta, meaning when you try to play around a Gengar (because it lacks a true counter), you run the risk of being hit with status or a very strong attack (Base 130 SpAtt). This isn't a bad thing so to speak since the goal of the game is simply to beat your opponent. What becomes a problem though is when Gengar provides its user with what I believe to be an unfair advantage. It's variability extends beyond normalcy within our meta and reaches toward the point of uber.

 

Explosion. Destiny Bond.

 

Both of which are pretty broken moves in my opinion on something this fast.

 

Will-o-Wisp + Pain Split. 

 

Not the bulkiest critter around but with those resistances and just enough bulk to be a pain in the ass, thing thing can live and live and live all while wearing your team down to the point of "I quit". 

 

Shadow Ball + Sludge Bomb.

 

Two strong stabs that can OHKO --> 2HKO a lot of commonly used pokemon.

 

Access to damn near everything else in the game.

 

Good luck trying to figure out this Gengar's moveset. You were just burned, lost half your health switching in, and then were exploded on before you even saw that 4th move. 

 

This is something that is ultimately going to come down to the OU Council. The scary thing with removing Gengar is that you remove a strong defensive presence. It's typing allows for substantial resistances and immunities to some of the strongest attacks in the game (Normal, Ground, Fighting). This isn't an argument to keep it, just something I'd like to point out. Removing Gengar means those STAB Superpowers could become a bigger problem.

 

On the flip side of this coin though is that Gengar has some really amazing immunities. 

 

Pre-fucking-cisely. Someone asked me earlier about what to expect when a Gengar is at low health. The point is, I don't fucking know. It could either destiny bond, explode or painsplit, no one knows. It's speed, power, typing is all pretty good and while it need not necessarily sweep, it's capable of cripping your team in such a way that almost any sweeper/choice bander can finish the job.

 

Despite Gengar being a top threat, I think it is good for the meta because it forces people to use coverage moves that hit a levitating ghost. Let's imagine a scenario in which Gengar was banned...

 

Banded pokemon can resume to fighting, normal and ground moves, having perfect coverage.

Curse Snorlax can freely run Body Slam - Eq, the only pokemon resisting this being Skarmory and Aerodactyl.

Heracross would not need to run Rock Slide anymore,

 

I think Gengar is needed to tone down the offensive pools of pokemon, and it does this job pretty good.

 

Offensively, I think it lacks the capabilities to sweep the tier but it is the most mischievous pokemon out there for now.

 

A very fair point as well because this would make choice banded normal users incredibly powerful, so I can understand the need for gengar.

 

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So what do we do :P