[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)

[Excelimpulse]

Flygon cannot come in on body slams, a para'd Flygon is death fodder at that point. As for bulky loom, sure it can take the hits better than others, and with access to priority para isn't as much of a problem, although still problematic, but what does Breloom then do to lax? Are you running max Hp and Def with superpower... cos that's just bad, not to mention doesn't even ohko lax w/out the investment. Rhydon is the best counter, Aggron is a quicker Rhydon with less HP and Atk but more def's, so I wouldn't call it bad @Craig and possibly Armaldo and Kabutops but they aren't very effective in OU. That's not many options imo

Lol defensive loom with superpower is bad? explains why people have trouble with curse lax. Let me ask you something, did the meta become more physical with the split? If your answer is yes, then why was curse lax unbanned before the split? Because of the big 3? Because all of them do not like para hax. So I don't get how you think a poke that is weak to physical becomes more powerful in a a more physical meta. Oh that's right then you bring the fire punch argument into play, which is then all what if scenarios. JUST LIKE PARA HAX. It's a part of the game get over it. Blissey can do all the same things if not put more pressure with better access to counter and twave to ensure full para hax. I can argue that I need at least the same amount of physical presence for blissey as I do snorlax. Or instead of me getting swept I get stalled out which I guess doesn't seem that bad of a loss in many people's eyes which causes the outrage.

[Kizhaz]

Lol defensive loom with superpower is bad? explains why people have trouble with curse lax. Let me ask you something, did the meta become more physical with the split? If your answer is yes, then why was curse lax unbanned before the split? Because of the big 3? Because all of them do not like para hax. So I don't get how you think a poke that is weak to physical becomes more powerful in a a more physical meta. Oh that's right then you bring the fire punch argument into play, which is then all what if scenarios. JUST LIKE PARA HAX. It's a part of the game get over it. Blissey can do all the same things if not put more pressure with better access to counter and twave to ensure full para hax. I can argue that I need at least the same amount of physical presence for blissey as I do snorlax. Or instead of me getting swept I get stalled out which I guess doesn't seem that bad of a loss in many people's eyes which causes the outrage.

 

Running loom with max def and no atk then having superpower to lower your uninvested atk even further and also reduce the bulk you bothered to invest in, yes it is bad. Did the meta become more physical, no idea, I stay far away from OU. All I did was point out that Flygon and Breloom cannot come in on slams, so I have no idea why your giving me a lecture about the big 3, fire punch and blissey.

[Excelimpulse]

I wonder why people just always want to ban stuff all the time when you have no argument for snorlax to not become unbanned. Trying to say the numbers are lying and meta did change is just funny. And saying people didn't have time to breed is even funnier when the only poke that probably needed to breed was gardevoir. Outside of that everyone already had to use.

[DrCraig]

Flygon,defensive breloom
And Craig u still never answered me about blissey too. I have to run the same amount of physical attackers to take out Blissey as I do snorlax other then I have to worry about counter. So I can argue blissey becomes more of a pain and my physical attackers are going to get para hax on the switch in for sure.

Flygon is not a counter
Defensive Breloom is a gimmick
About ur blissey question you never asked, you are wrong. There is a larger amount of physical pokemon who can come on on blissey and set up or kill it. Due to snorlax having access to curse and slam spam it is a threat to every pokemon which doesn't resist its normal stab. Blissey doesn't have close to the offensive pteseni of Snorlax as well as the viable set up moves. Calm mind blissey? No

Edit: Let me clarify that running defensive Breloom with superpower is nonsensical. Why would you run a defensive wall with a move that drops defensive. Regardless, defensie breloom is a shit gimmick. Maybe if it was good, maybe if, then it would be evidence of centralizing. Edited May 15, 2015 by DrCraig

[ThinkNice]

And people are still blabbering about Snorlax's offensive presence and his defensive power with Curse. I don't know how I can put this more simply but the test wasn't about that. And still 90% of the people are arguing about this while it has already been done.

 

On the actual topic at hand. All I see is 'oh man the meta changed', while it didn't that much. Of course the meta is going to change, it's not even about the change it's about if this change is healthier, or if this change is significant enough to warrant a Snorlax ban. In stead of a meta centralized around Snorlax we saw a meta centralized around Blissey, this isn't healthier. 'Oh but Snorlax offensive p-' No, don't. Read the first line again. Ok good.

 

'B-but the meta was more fun!' Oh right, of fucking course it's more fun. The Pokémon that was dominating for 200 years in our metagame had been removed and all of a sudden it was like we had ZOMG SO MUCH FREEDOM, again not really. It just seems that way because of the fact that we have been playing with Snorlax for so long, and it is also fun because it's different. Fun is the fucking most vague argument you can give.

[DrCraig]

This is not the suspect thread anymore tho..

[DoubleJ]

One thing that is really difficult to differentiate is the idea of what type of teams were succeeding in each meta. We can visualize what pokemon are commonly used, but what combination of those pokemon isn't really represented. 

 

In the Snorlax meta, were there only one to two significant combinations that were successful? For instance: Heracross, Arcanine, Weezing, Gengar, Metagross, and Snorlax.

 

In the post-Snorlax meta, how many team combinations were successful? Was there diversity there or was it similar to the Snorlax-meta where there were only a few successful team combinations. 

 

This can't really be measured, but I think this is how a healthy-meta should be perceived. From my own subjective opinion, during my time playing in the Snorlax meta it seemed that I was fighting a very similar team structure every match. Snorlax + Weezing + Gengar and a combination from a small handful of other pokemon. While in the post-Snorlax ban there was Blissey + a wide variety of other pokemon being used. 

 

Snorlax to me still chokes playstyle and bottlenecks it down to a handful of pokes for a player to really succeed. It is centralizing. No, it is the most centralizing pokemon in our OU tier and that to me makes it fairly unhealthy. 

[Robofiend]

On second thought, I should've pushed harder for a month extension of the ban… My b.

[DoubleJ]

Just going to leave this bit of knowledge here: Changing the decision/having a suspect test during the biggest OU event in two years is pretty sucky. I don't like having the meta flipped on its end just a week before the Spring Championship Final. 

[BurntZebra]

Just going to leave this bit of knowledge here: Changing the decision/having a suspect test during the biggest OU event in two years is pretty sucky. I don't like having the meta flipped on its end just a week before the Spring Championship Final. 

Well it was brought up in pm that half of the spring invitationals were with snorlax and half were without snorlax, so its pretty fair. And 2 weeks in between the end of test and the championship is fine, especially considering the people who got invites are most likely active and have comps already from snorlax meta (even though usage says otherwise). 

[codylramey]

[spoiler]
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 181-214 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 172-204 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 109-129 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 10.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kingdra: 159-187 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 172-204 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 172-204 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I used 252 atk adamant lax in these calcs. I believe that is a common set for curselax correct?
[/spoiler]

Now I am not trying to prove that snorlax is OP (although i still question that decision to this day). Thinknice said that we only have the illusion of having more choice in a meta with out snorlax than without. I completely disagree and hope to prove my point here. All of these pokes listed are either Mixed attackers, Wall breakers, or Physical sweepers. (I left out pokes like machamp and heriyama bc they are just kind of bad no matter what). None of them can consistantly come in on and break, or set up on a snorlax without support from the team. With the exception of heracross this makes them a pretty shitty choice to take on a lax, and even heracross has trouble if you cant get him in safely. None of thesee pokes can switch in on lax very often.

[spoiler]
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Blaziken: 100-100 (33.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Ursaring: 100-100 (31 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 192 HP Arcanine: 100-100 (27.1 - 27.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Kingdra: 100-100 (34.3 - 34.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Medicham: 100-100 (38.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Heracross: 100-100 (33.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

And even the rarely seen but deadly to bugs flamethrower
0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 112-134 (37 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
[/spoiler]

Now i know my calcs only prove something that we already know, bliss lacks the offensive power that lax does. But something i think that some people are missing is that snorlaxes offensive power is what stops these pokes from being all that viable, and is one of the things that makes him so centralizing. What is the point of bring a wall breaker who cant come in on the most common wall in the meta? Whats the point in a sweeper who cant set up on the thing who is suppose to be weak in the stat that hes setting up? Whats the point in a mixed attacker who cant comfortably come in on the number 1 wall in the game? Thinknice said that we just swapped a meta based around snoralx for a meata based around blissey, im not going to COMPLETELY disagree with that. But then he said one was not healthier than the other. That is where I will have to disagree. Because in a meta based around blissey all of these pokemon listed become better at doing their jobs. In a meta based around lax none of them can do their jobs well enough to justify using, with the exception of maybe heracross who has to have support to consistently take a lax.

Edit: The kingdra is a DDance kingdra. I understand that rain kingra is probably better in a lax meta, but kingdra as a whole is better in a bliss meta than a lax one because he can run either or.

Edited May 16, 2015 by codylramey

[Vaeldras]

[spoiler]
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 181-214 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 172-204 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 109-129 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 10.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kingdra: 159-187 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 172-204 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 172-204 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I used 252 atk adamant lax in these calcs. I believe that is a common set for curselax correct?
[/spoiler]

Now I am not trying to prove that snorlax is OP (although i still question that decision to this day). Thinknice said that we only have the illusion of having more choice in a meta with out snorlax than without. I completely disagree and hope to prove my point here. All of these pokes listed are either Mixed attackers, Wall breakers, or Physical sweepers. (I left out pokes like machamp and heriyama bc they are just kind of bad no matter what). None of them can consistantly come in on and break, or set up on a snorlax without support from the team. With the exception of heracross this makes them a pretty shitty choice to take on a lax, and even heracross has trouble if you cant get him in safely. None of thesee pokes can switch in on lax very often.

[spoiler]
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Blaziken: 100-100 (33.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Ursaring: 100-100 (31 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 192 HP Arcanine: 100-100 (27.1 - 27.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Kingdra: 100-100 (34.3 - 34.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Medicham: 100-100 (38.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Heracross: 100-100 (33.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

And even the rarely seen but deadly to bugs flamethrower
0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 112-134 (37 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
[/spoiler]

Now i know my calcs only prove something that we already know, bliss lacks the offensive power that lax does. But something i think that some people are missing is that snorlaxes offensive power is what stops these pokes from being all that viable, and is one of the things that makes him so centralizing. What is the point of bring a wall breaker who cant come in on the most common wall in the meta? Whats the point in a sweeper who cant set up on the thing who is suppose to be weak in the stat that hes setting up? Whats the point in a mixed attacker who cant comfortably come in on the number 1 wall in the game? Thinknice said that we just swapped a meta based around snoralx for a meata based around blissey, im not going to COMPLETELY disagree with that. But then he said one was not healthier than the other. That is where I will have to disagree. Because in a meta based around blissey all of these pokemon listed become better at doing their jobs. In a meta based around lax none of them can do their jobs well enough to justify using, with the exception of maybe heracross who has to have support to consistently take a lax.

Edit: The kingdra is a DDance kingdra. I understand that rain kingra is probably better in a lax meta, but kingdra as a whole is better in a bliss meta than a lax one because he can run either or.

 

Actually, machamp is enough to prevent a snorlax from ever waking up, especially with a focus lense.

[Excelimpulse]

Actually, machamp is enough to prevent a snorlax from ever waking up, especially with a focus lense.

Agreed. Saying machamp is bad is just kind of funny when it's a great lead and forces a lot of switches.

And when around 1/3 or close to the viable pokes in ou resist it's stab it's kinda hard to say snorlax is op.

[Robofiend]

Agreed. Saying machamp is bad is just kind of funny when it's a great lead and forces a lot of switches.

And when around 1/3 or close to the viable pokes in ou resist it's stab it's kinda hard to say snorlax is op.

 

No one's saying Snorlax is OP, we're saying its unhealthy and prevents a dynamic metagame.

 

Cody's post actually hits the argument I've been making a lot more concisely. Here's the premise form:

 

1. If Snorlax is unhealthy, then banning it will result in a healthier metagame.

2. Assume we swapped a meta centered around Snorlax for a meta around Blissey.

3. The meta centered around Blissey is no healthier than the meta centered around Snorlax.

4. Therefore, the test is inconclusive and Snorlax is returned to OU. (1,3)

 

The problem lies in premise 3: even if Blissey was everywhere there's no logical implication that this is unhealthy. Remember the DPP Scizor point? There you have a pokemon that's insanely highly used but isn't problematic because of how well it's checked by the rest of the metagame. Unhealthiness is a trait that emerges from a whole range of characteristics about a Pokemon and the metagame that it exists in - not just a function of usage.

[Vaeldras]

Agreed. Saying machamp is bad is just kind of funny when it's a great lead and forces a lot of switches.

And when around 1/3 or close to the viable pokes in ou resist it's stab it's kinda hard to say snorlax is op.

 

Well even though it has a better defensive typing than ursaring it's doesn't work as well.

Mainly because of weezing, it can't take it down unless guts boosted facade and even then,you're gonna need some extra set up (bulk up or focus energy)

Wouldn't bother using it if snorlax wasn't around.

[bl0nde]

• its unhealthy
• Unhealthiness is a trait that emerges from a whole range of characteristics

 

• most of us believe that uncompetitive elements of the game are not de facto (in fact) banworthy, they are banworthy in light of (in consideration to) also being unhealthy.
• ...does force the meta to adapt to its presence. Any good pokemon does that.
• ...Ever notice that you pretty much have to have checks for X, X, X, X, X and X in order to win matches? 
• It's only when there are too few ways of dealing with a pokemon that it becomes overcentralizing and unhealthy.
• So there are around 8 solid revenge killers for X, all of whom are very good otherwise.

TL;DR - uncompetitive =/= banworthy =/= unhealthy for the millionth time

 

 

So basically I make the statement that dugtrio is uncompetitive and takes away sets I can run. It goes so far that many of our special wall blissey's run hail for ONE pokemon. Then to me you list a couple ways to deal with it, 8 revenge killers and imply for me to just get over it.

 

Now here your argument on snorlax is basically to gg'nor usage stats and the issue is you cannot switch stuff in on it and it's centralizing. I don't see anywhere in senile's tiering guide where a requirement for something to be healthy was that you had to have the ability to come in on it freely.

 

and If you want to talk about ways to "deal with it" here are "solid revenge killers , all of whom are very good otherwise."

 

Some Revenge Killers for Snorlax

1. Machamp Cross chop

252 Atk Machamp Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 240-284 (89.8 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

2. Ursaring cross chop band

252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 262-310 (98.1 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

3. Heracross brick break/reversal

252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 260-308 (97.3 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

4. Weezing outspeed snorlax W-o-W/Haze  Cleric for para. Need weezing for hera anyway.

5. Scizor

252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 210-248 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

6.

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 262-310 (98.1 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

7. Rhydon

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 132-156 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Rhydon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 210-248 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

8. Blaziken

252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 248-294 (92.8 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

9. Swampert

252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 175-207 (65.5 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 280-330 (104.8 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

10. Crawdaunt

252+ Atk Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 200-236 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Besides the fighting stabs, choice banded superpowers, etc, you can finish it off with a special sweeper. The typical TIMID statmie does 1/4 health to 252hp 252 snorlax.

252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 63-75 (23.5 - 28%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recover

 

 You are trying to make a real legit reason and a real legit argument to say snorlax is uber. Some of the individual sentences are true, but the posts as a whole are just subjective. Be honest, please, you guys want that special defense slot to set up stuff like your metagross and your kingdra. It lets you have freedom to set up whatever you want on it - variety. That's your pitch.

 

You want everyone to run that gimmick special defense ludicolo core or run that hail/spam ice beam. It has nothing to do with that OP snorlax body slam threat spam, because if you had such a fear of body slam normal stabs you'd be preaching ursaring - and we all know ursaring comes in like crazy on blissey. What you want is that set up slot so you can send in whatever you want on it. You think that leaves room for variety.

 

Be honest because I actually agree with you. That does leave varierty for switch ins. That is true. However, that's just because you are using a wall instead of a tank for basically an almost required role on the team. So at that point, do we bleed into...well we need to take out heracross and ursaring so I have more freedom for my physical defense core? It leaves me room for variety if you do that? Those arguments start getting too subjective.

Edited May 16, 2015 by bl0nde

[SpartacusGD]

So basically I make the statement that dugtrio is uncompetitive and takes away sets I can run. It goes so far that many of our special wall blissey's run hail for ONE pokemon. Then to me you list a couple ways to deal with it, 8 revenge killers and imply for me to just get over it.

 

Now here your argument on snorlax is basically to gg'nor usage stats and the issue is you cannot switch stuff in on it and it's centralizing. I don't see anywhere in senile's tiering guide where a requirement for something to be healthy was that you had to have the ability to come in on it freely.

 

and If you want to talk about ways to "deal with it" here are "solid revenge killers , all of whom are very good otherwise."

 

Some Revenge Killers for Snorlax

1. Machamp Cross chop

252 Atk Machamp Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 240-284 (89.8 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

2. Ursaring cross chop band

252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 262-310 (98.1 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

3. Heracross brick break/reversal

252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 260-308 (97.3 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

4. Weezing outspeed snorlax W-o-W/Haze  Cleric for para. Need weezing for hera anyway.

5. Scizor

252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 210-248 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

6.

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 262-310 (98.1 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

7. Rhydon

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 132-156 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Rhydon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 210-248 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

8. Blaziken

252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 248-294 (92.8 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

9. Swampert

252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 175-207 (65.5 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 280-330 (104.8 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

10. Crawdaunt

252+ Atk Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 200-236 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I don't really care a lot about this. I just think it's stupid how long this has gone on. You are trying to make a real legit reason and a real legit argument. Some of the individual sentences are true, but the posts as a whole are just subjective. Be honest, please, you guys want that special defense slot to set up stuff like your metagross and your kingdra. It lets you have freedom to set up whatever you want on it - variety. That's your pitch.

 

You want everyone to run that gimmick special defense ludicolo core or run that hail/spam ice beam. Just be honest. It has nothing to do with snorlax body slam threats, because if you had such a fear of body slam normal stabs you'd be preaching ursaring - and we all know ursaring comes in like crazy on blissey. What you want is that set up slot so you can send in whatever you want on it. Be honest.

 

you can add breloom, medicham and hariyama and flygon and cb metagross, and if you have crawdaunt i guess kingler will count aswell and azumarill

 

bellyzard / linoone, metal sound mag, fake tears jolt rain dance kingdra on sleeping curselax aswell

[Excelimpulse]

I think it's time to Stast asking devs when legendairies are going to show up or I feel this snoekax blissey meta will always exhist and force people out of our meta. Just saying

[codylramey]

Dugtrio and Snorlax are two totally diff pokes and the ability to revenge kill isnt a good argument to keep any of them. If you want me to add machamp and heriyama sure, they have a much easier time vs bliss than lax

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 163-193 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Machamp: 100-100 (26 - 26%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 205-243 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Hariyama: 100-100 (20.3 - 20.3%) -- guaranteed 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

While they can handle snorlax kinda, assuming thy dont get parad after the first or second time switching in, they can come in on lax only twice. How many times do you think lax is able to come in a match? Ill give you a hint its more than twice. While blissey barely touches either of them. So they still become more viable in the laxless meta. Not only that, the reason i said they suck was mainly bc of gengar. Immune to their stab (which you will be using to take out or risk losing ur lax counter) and they have no SE moves against it (thief maybe?). In the blissey meta gengar usage drops a lot so that makes them even more viable. Also in the blissey meta you can afford to try n predict against it, try that thief, with little to no consequences.

Edited May 17, 2015 by codylramey

[ThinkNice]

>my snorlax doesn't get 6HKO'd by Starmie

> calcs always with 252+ atk

 

edit: nvm calc

252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Snorlax: 96-114 (20.7 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

such bulk

Edited May 17, 2015 by ThinkNice

[codylramey]

>my snorlax doesn't get 6HKO'd by Starmie
> calcs always with 252+ atk
 
edit: nvm calc

252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Snorlax: 96-114 (20.7 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
such bulk

My laxdoes have 252 atk. Not only tha my lax is built weird (Its actually one of the things that won me a match against one of the lyle members. He didnt think my lax was gonna live the spcl hit he gave me). In my calc i put something to the sort "I believe adamant 252 atk is the common spread". Would you disagree with that?

[ThinkNice]

My laxdoes have 252 atk. Not only tha my lax is built weird (Its actually one of the things that won me a match against one of the lyle members. He didnt think my lax was gonna live the spcl hit he gave me). In my calc i put something to the sort "I believe adamant 252 atk is the common spread". Would you disagree with that?

havent read that post yet cauz long

[Vaeldras]

Let's not assume snorlax will always spam bodyslam no matter what though, i remember it using curse 50% of the times (probably bad players, but who am i to judge?  :rolleyes: )

Snorlax can still be punished by ghosts with wow, even with rest. It's not hard to roar it out or just send machamp/anything with focus energy once it's crippled/asleep.

 

Btw, it's not like snorlax is the worst thing you could possibly switch in; metagross, for example, has the potential to 2hko almost anything i can think of at the moment with a mixed set, same with blaziken and some other pokes we all know. And it's not like they're impossible to stop.

Still, they're offensively way more threatening than snorlax, and so is any popular ph sweeper.

Ofc no ph wallbreaker has the special bulk of snorlax, but it'sno blissey.

 

I recall being swept by snorlax only once back in the pre ban days, and still i have to read bullshits like "Curselax allows me to beat players who are way better than me" or even better "from a very fun meta, with lots of different Pokemon each fight to a meta revolving around Snorlax".

It that is not being biased, i don't know what it is.

Snorlax is the best answer to any sp hitter, no doubt, so ofc it's gonna affect team building, no shit.

 

While saying it isn't a must on every team (and probably the most relevant poke we have atm) would be telling a lie, there are plenty of ways to deal with it, as already demonstrated by several people before me.

So let's forget our burning love for blissey and try not to blame snorlax for things like global warming and stuff k

Edited May 17, 2015 by Vaeldras

[bl0nde]

Guys the decision has already been made it seems; however, if we were going to continue just for the sake of discussion, in my opinion (with all our opinions being different) the only logical thing to do is to turn to the tiering guide.

 

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47727-tiering-and-you/?hl=tiering+and+you

 

In this way, we elimiate as much of our subjectivity as possible.

 

So there are 3 categories that you can use as a ban:

#1 is the pokemon uber.

(tier council said in the OP of the suspect test thread that snorlax is not uber)

#2 "Uncompetitive Pokemon, Moves, Abilities, etc. In other words, something that takes away options from the player,"

#3 Unhealthy: "Things which restrict the metagame in ways which are unfavorable for an evolving competitive metagame". In other words, a pokemon which is unhealthy is something which heavily stagnates or centralizes the metagame in a way which is problematic for a healthy metagame. Note that it has to be in a way which is problematic for a healthy metagame. This is important to note, as being centralizing is not necessarily an indicator of a pokemon being unhealthy for the metagame. An unhealthy pokemon is one which makes the metagame worse with it's presence, by stagnating the metagame in a large, negative way.

• So what we have left to work with here *I think* is #2 and #3.
• The definition of stagnant (from merium webster) is to not change or progress.
• Usage Stats (one last time) [spoiler][/spoiler]

So I think we should use the data whenever possible to avoid subjectivity. From studying the data, we know there was not an increase in VARIETY of things seen (less than 1% of the time); however, there was a change in what was seen HOW OFTEN (usage rate) for some pokemons.

 

Okay guys try to not be subjective the best you can and say what you think in regards to category 2 and 3. Try to keep to the tiering guide and the data in mind as much as you can. These are our foundations. This IMO is the best way to go about the discussion if you guys still want to proceed.

Edited May 17, 2015 by bl0nde

[Robofiend]

#3 Unhealthy: "Things which restrict the metagame in ways which are unfavorable for an evolving competitive metagame". In other words, a pokemon which is unhealthy is something which heavily stagnates or centralizes the metagame in a way which is problematic for a healthy metagame. Note that it has to be in a way which is problematic for a healthy metagame. This is important to note, as being centralizing is not necessarily an indicator of a pokemon being unhealthy for the metagame. An unhealthy pokemon is one which makes the metagame worse with it's presence, by stagnating the metagame in a large, negative way.

 

I'm pretty sure we saw that Snorlax caused pretty intense stagnation pre-ban, that's a large part of why people wanted it banned. 

 

An unhealthy pokemon is one which makes the metagame worse with it's presence, by stagnating the metagame in a large, negative way.

 

 

I'm 100% certain this quote will become relevant again in a month when people realize that Snorlax is on 80% of teams and the meta's stagnant again.