[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)

[YagamiNoir]

I'm pretty sure we saw that Snorlax caused pretty intense stagnation pre-ban, that's a large part of why people wanted it banned. 

 

 

 

I'm 100% certain this quote will become relevant again in a month when people realize that Snorlax is on 80% of teams and the meta's stagnant again.

Actually it might not even matter, because to my personal interpretation of most of what's been said through Tranz's post and the like, both metas are "stagnant." Snorlax's departure wasn't "significant enough", apparently, so the difference between the two metagames seems to be "mild", which can be a debatable factor.

 

Tldr; That quote can probably be replied with "It's *unhealthy*, but removing it doesn't change the metagame enough, so it either doesn't matter/doesn't merit the definition. An unhealthy Pokemon, when removed from a metagame, displays significant changes toward the "unhealthiness", something that the test proved otherwise.

 

Of course, this still revolves with the speculation that of which some of not most people disapprove of Blissey-centered metas and vice versa that also factors the "healthiness" of the metagame, regarding a post from the last page that you speculated Cody about. This kinda needs to be fixed as well -- is a Blissey meta necessarily *that* bad or some other random question? Logically, "if the change isn't significant, I might as well take all of the bad instead of the slight relief I get", as well. 

 

Within the one month of the suspect test it seemed to come to some people that Snorlax's usage made Blissey's "special attacker instant denial thing" irrelevant enough when it kinda still could be run in the first place. "Oh, Snorlax could still be broken by Special Attackers but when it's gone Special Attack went down the charts! And apparently Snorlax was some kind of replacement to Blissey that was dominant enough to make Special Attacking more viable than the one without Snorlax!" We're now seeing that with Snorlax into the mix, which admittedly makes no sense as to why it was brought back down instead of giving an extended test period considering we're moving back to deja vu. Whining won't solve the problem now I guess, but the vagueness of such decisions I need to profess my disagreement with. 

 

What is the line, actually? Something that causes the meta to be "stagnant", yet doesn't bring significant enough of a change with it's departure, and apparently changes that are insufficient don't merit satisfaction for a presumably "better metagame", because it's too slight. What does this mean, the fact that the degree of something being "unhealthy" or "stagnant" needs to be dropped down a little? "Adaption"? I've probably asked the same thing but without an answer, I guess. 

Edited May 17, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[codylramey]

Yagan, you may have mentioned this but i missed it, but I would like to add that the usage stats did show a change in the meta. Whos to say it wouldnt have changed more? Whos to say it wasnt in the middle of a much bigger shift.

Edited May 17, 2015 by codylramey

[Excelimpulse]

lf more pokes. Isn't arcanine kinda centralizing also.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[Arimanius]

Unless we ban both of them

Actually I would like to see that just for the test but I think special sweepers will be used much more than any other thing

[codylramey]

And im arguing that the meta based around bliss was healthier. What part of that did you not get?

[Vaeldras]

Yagan, you may have mentioned this but i missed it, but I would like to add that the usage stats did show a change in the meta. Whos to say it wouldnt have changed more? Whos to say it wasnt in the middle of a much bigger shift.

 

 

With that logic we could have extended the test to may 2016.

It's pretty safe to assume that in both cases we're gonna have an obese pokemon with 80% usage

[codylramey]

 
With that logic we could have extended the test to may 2016.
It's pretty safe to assume that in both cases we're gonna have an obese pokemon with 80% usage

blissey was only around 55% which is less than lax. And for all we know that number could have eventually dropped (or rose we dont know).

Ur way over exaggerating about both the fat poke usage and the amount of time we would need to get solid usage stats.

Think about this for a second. We got 1 set of usage during the test, that happened 3 weeks into the test. It left out 2(?) tournies that happened during the test. So not only did we not get a full month while going off those usage we had no other laxless meta usage stats to compare to in order to see if the meta was still evolving or if it had stagnated the way it was.

[DrCraig]

Robo pointed out that the look on Snorlax's influence needs to be more objective subjective. Usage is nice, but it doesn't fully answer questions regarding if Snorlax is 'unhealthy.'

Edited May 17, 2015 by DrCraig

[bl0nde]

Robo pointed out that the look on Snorlax's influence needs to be more objective. Usage is nice, but it doesn't fully answer questions regarding if Snorlax is 'unhealthy.'

You are saying the usage data does not answer questions so you mean[url=http://www.diffen.com/difference/Objective_vs_Subjective]Subjective[/url] I think?

I'm pretty sure we saw that Snorlax caused pretty intense stagnation pre-ban, that's a large part of why people wanted it banned. 

Are you able to use the data to illustrate how the blissey meta is evolving or changing (not changing) more so than the snorlax meta? I am just asking.

Edited May 17, 2015 by bl0nde

[DoubleJ]

I think it's time someone pulled out a fucking p value on the differences between the two usage stats and see if their was a statistical relevance.

[bl0nde]

differences between the two usage stats

see if their was a statistical relevance.

I was googling stuff earlier and I found this in a smogon thread, but i'm not sure if it's accurate. The idea itself seems somewhat relevevant.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Edited May 17, 2015 by bl0nde

[DrCraig]

That bottom curve represents our situation imo

Edited May 17, 2015 by DrCraig

[ThinkNice]

sneak:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Vaeldras]

Waiting for someone to come up with "lol blissey's usage was so low compared to it's winrate"

[codylramey]

sneak:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Ew where did this come from? Edited May 17, 2015 by codylramey

[DrCraig]

God Curselax is so fucking brokenly annoyingly fucking stupid. Half of the counters for it can't even kill it, just fucking sit there like fucking weezing. The other half get parad and then set up in the face. God damnit god damnit gowekpjgWLH

Edited May 18, 2015 by DrCraig

[Vaeldras]

God Curselax is so fucking brokenly annoyingly fucking stupid. Half of the counters for it can't even kill it, just fucking sit there like fucking weezing. The other half get parad and then set up in the face. God damnit god damnit gowekpjgWLH

 

Use fighting moves, they're super effective

[DoubleJ]

Ya Curselax is still a centralizing offensive/defensive monster that forces the usage of disgusting Gengars and paralyzes everything on the face of the planet because it can't be killed unless every poke on your team has hit it five times.

Reserve tourney was a good example. Most disgusting meta we've ever had. My patience is shot.

[Robofiend]

I was googling stuff earlier and I found this in a smogon thread, but i'm not sure if it's accurate. The idea itself seems somewhat relevevant.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

 

I'd say that's super relevant. A healthy metagame is one that allows for new threats to arise, be checked and then fade into relative obscurity, only to come back again later to scare the shit out of everyone again. An unhealthy metagame is like what we saw when Dragonite was around - there was no need to come up with newer, better sets because Dragonite was so good that building teams around it didn't require anything but the 10 or so pokemon we commonly used. Like I said earlier, it'll be clear after another month or two that having Snorlax in the metagame leads to a situation like the bottom picture: a stagnant, dead metagame.

[codylramey]

Thinknice where did you get that usage screenshot?

[Gunthug]

Thinknice where did you get that usage screenshot?

My guess is PSL usage but I haven't verified it

Edit: just verified it - he posted the new usage at around 5:30 yesterday in the general thread Edited May 19, 2015 by Gunthug

[OrangeManiac]

252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Snorlax on a critical hit: 382-451 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Scope Lens Kingler new meta.

[codylramey]

252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Snorlax on a critical hit: 382-451 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Scope Lens Kingler new meta.

Plz doesnt even OHKO.

[Vaeldras]

252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Snorlax on a critical hit: 382-451 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Scope Lens Kingler new meta.

 

Why not machamp?

[codylramey]

Soo just got outplayed by Enrrique in vermillion. He called every single one of my moves and had the upperhand the entire match. All i had to do was get rid of his hera and curselax swept 5-0.

Edited May 21, 2015 by codylramey