UU Viability Thread

[OrangeManiac]

I agree with Craig with Magmar being B+. The very definition of a Pokemon which needs support but with that it can be so damn scary.

 

Edit: Kingler is A, if not S. Demolishing sweeper which can have CB to destroy the opponent or EndureFlail the other team to oblivion without priority. Seriously, just look at not very effective damage from CB Crabhammer. It can reliably sweep and also will scare everything to switch in.

Edited May 19, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[gbwead]

I agree with Craig with Magmar being B+. The very definition of a Pokemon which needs support but with that it can be so damn scary.

 

Edit: Kingler is A, if not S. Demolishing sweeper which can have CB to destroy the opponent or EndureFlail the other team to oblivion without priority. Seriously, just look at not very effective damage from CB Crabhammer. It can reliably sweep and also will scare everything to switch in.

 

I personally think Azumarill puts more pressure on the tier than Kingler. He might deserve the A rank but not more.

[OrangeManiac]

I personally think Azumarill puts more pressure on the tier than Kingler. He might deserve the A rank but not more.

Well, if you want people to follow your opinion I recommend to explain why you think that way. I even personally think A for Azumarill in the current metagame just might be too high. It is basically an ultimate wallbreaker but there aren't that many insane walls like there used to be. Azumarill cannot sweep at all due to lack of speed and a Salac strategy so not like Azu has that same unpredictability factor as Kingler does.

[gbwead]

Well, if you want people to follow your opinion I recommend to explain why you think that way. I even personally think A for Azumarill in the current metagame just might be too high. It is basically an ultimate wallbreaker but there aren't that many insane walls like there used to be. Azumarill cannot sweep at all due to lack of speed and a Salac strategy so not like Azu has that same unpredictability factor as Kingler does.

I think Kingler as A is fine. I don't disagree with you unless you want Kingler to be A+ or S.

As for Azumarill, he might not have the speed of Kingler but he is way more bulky and therefore can be put in play more easily.
Azumarill doesnt need a set up to hit extremly hard. Unlike Kingler, Crawdaunt and Sharpedo he has access to ice punch which is really useful against Exeggutor.

Azumarill puts a lot of pressure on the tier. I have never seen a duel where Azumarill could not secure a kill before fainting. I cannot say the same thing for Kingler since I see him more as a "high risk high reward" sweeper.

 

Edited May 20, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

I think Kingler as A is fine. I don't disagree with you unless you want Kingler to be A+ or S.

As for Azumarill, he might not have the speed of Kingler but he is way more bulky and therefore can be put in play more easily.
Azumarill doesnt need a set up to hit extremly hard. Unlike Kingler, Crawdaunt and Sharpedo he has access to ice punch which is really useful against Exeggutor.

Azumarill puts a lot of pressure on the tier. I have never seen a duel where Azumarill could not secure a kill before fainting. I cannot say the same thing for Kingler since I see him more as a "high risk high reward" sweeper.

 

Well crawdaunt+sharpedo have stab crunch that wrecks exeggutor so not exactly needing ice punch really. 

[DrCraig]

Magmar has been added to the tier list at B+ Rank.

 

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the UU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

Magmar fits this description by its massive positives, but the need to support to be used the most successfully. Its belly drummer ability paired with perfect coverage is a force on the meta. If it wasn't for its typing and need for support, it would probably fit in A. However with its tricky set up, it fits as a B. Being a top tier threat, regardless of viability, it fits as a B+.

Edited May 21, 2015 by DrCraig

[DrCraig]

Cleaned the OP up a bit.

Namely I added the Tiering Etiquette Guide and links to other viability threads in a more organized and accessible fashion.

 

The thread has been fairly quiet, if anybody wants to run by a comment or opinion on any rankings, feel free.

[DrCraig]

Taking ideas from that fancy old Doubles Viability Thread

 

I have added a lot of pokemon just now which are taken from the UU Usage Statistics List. Everything used will now be given a viability ranking. I have also missed a few which I would've liked to add anyway. If you agree or disagree with a decision I made feel free to write about it. Here are the additions in alphabetical order:

 

Added to the C Tier:

Diglett

Gorebyss

Jumpluff

Kadabra

Pidgeot

Sandslash

Trapinch

 

Added to the D Tier:

Banette

Huntail

Kecleon

Magcargo

Noctowl

Politoed

Rapidash

Raticate

Relicanth

Roselia

Shedinja

Seviper

Smeargle

Wailord

 

 

Also,

I would like to discuss switching the spots of Chansey and Clefable around. Chansey outclasses Clefable as a wall, in my opinion, and I believe Chansey would be best fit as an A rank. Thus, I would rather see Clefable as a B or B+ Rank as a result.

Discuss. :)

 

[spoiler]God, this tier is cancer.[/spoiler]

[DoubleJ]

Ya, UU found a way to become a bad tier. I can't pinpoint the problem but something just doesn't feel right.

Chansey > Clef agreed.

[DrCraig]

Ya, UU found a way to become a bad tier. I can't pinpoint the problem but something just doesn't feel right.

Chansey > Clef agreed.

Yea, I feel like the tier is going to be pretty stagnant now with all these bulky things, but who knows. Maybe I'm just butthurt because I suck at it.

 

Also I want to see if anybody has opinions on Gligar and Breloom being A. Opinions on if they should move down?

[YagamiNoir]

Yea, I feel like the tier is going to be pretty stagnant now with all these bulky things, but who knows. Maybe I'm just butthurt because I suck at it.

 

Also I want to see if anybody has opinions on Gligar and Breloom being A. Opinions on if they should move down?

Breloom should stick a firm A, personally, but I suppose it's better to go with the facts. Utility in Spore/SubSeed that complements high Attack, Focus Punch, and priority Mach Punch goes pretty damn well. The main issue is that Exeggutor/Vileplume pretty much screw it up as well as Hypno, so the common stops might diminish its viability there.

 

Gligar's typing is of course nice, being able to check quite some things like Hitmonlee, having utility in Taunt and stuff (and hurry up Knock Off fix) that makes it pretty good as a tank, and it can play offensive if it wants. Bad news is any reasonably bulky water completely shuts it, although that's not as prominent as it was before, I guess. 

 

EDIT: Chansey is superior to Clefable in terms of the sheer walling, but Chansey's a one trick pony whereas Clefable isn't. Clefable doesn't have offense issues like Chansey with its movepool and Calm Mind, since Chansey can get walled by Haunter behind a Sub and stuff, and it doesn't get Encore either. I suppose you gotta pick up the niches. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[DoubleJ]

Chansey has a couple options, one being a seismic cleric and the other being a wish passing seismic user, both are wrecked stalled by ghosts with sub (stallfest yay). This is the same though with sub/cm missd, unless of course clef has cm herself.

All in all our top two special walls are basically at a stalemate against the ghosts. Players better add a second option to handle each of those threats.

[NikhilR]

The problem with Chansey is how incredible of a supporter it is. NC and dat special bulk is one advantage it will always have over clefable. As a supporter, it can provide enough support to teammates like Kangaskhan, Steelix to wreck ghost types. 

[DoubleJ]

The problem with Chansey is how incredible of a supporter it is. NC and dat special bulk is one advantage it will always have over clefable. As a supporter, it can provide enough support to teammates like Kangaskhan, Steelix to wreck ghost types.

Synergy in a nut shell

[NikhilR]

Synergy in a nut shell

 

It's more than just synergy. I could link you my UU pc box and show you how Chansey completely shuts down or makes 2 rows of pokemon just useless with its bulk. Its ability to wish protect and NC is too much compared to Clefable because Clefable can't switch into special attacks with that much ease and when statused it is forced to aroma itself and takes quite a bit of dmg in that process unlike Chansey which just laughs it off since all it needs to do is switch out. It doesn't matter how little of offensive presence it has because seismic toss quite a bit of offensive presence as it is. 

 

Because Chansey isn't forced to run aroma, it can run toxic as the 4th move while clefable runs seismic / wish / aroma / protect. Toxic+Seismic is enough offensive presence imo because it doesn't just hurt switch ins, but it prevents your switch ins from setting up as well. This means that steelix/vileplume are your only valid safe switch ins. Toxic+Seismic means that you can't even outstall or pp stall this thing.

 

The only time I have seen someone use trapping as a strategy, is to beat a pokemon that is generally hard to beat or completely shuts down a particular playstyle. Hence the reason why Trapinch even exists. Not because of its stab eq, not because of how it can revenge kill so many things with qa, but because of how it kills Chansey.

 

If you really want to see the tier improve with more special pokemon becoming viable than just physical, if you want pokemon like manectric, walrein, lanturn etc. to see the light of day more often, this poke is one of the first things that needs to go. 

 

EDIT: forgot to add qa for trapinch revenge killing

Edited June 1, 2015 by NikhilR

[DrCraig]

It's more than just synergy. I could link you my UU pc box and show you how Chansey completely shuts down or makes 2 rows of pokemon just useless with its bulk. It's ability to wish protect and NC is too much compared to Clefable because Clefable can't switch into special attacks with that much ease and when statused it is forced to aroma itself and takes quite a bit of dmg in that process unlike Chansey which just laughs it off since all it needs to do is switch out. It doesn't matter how little of offensive presence it has because seismic toss quite a bit of offensive presence as it is. 

 

Because Chansey isn't forced to run aroma, it can run toxic as the 4th move while clefable runs seismic / wish / aroma / protect. Toxic+Seismic is enough offensive presence imo because it doesn't just hurt switch ins, but it prevents your switch ins from setting up as well. This means that steelix/vileplume are your only valid safe switch ins. Toxic+Seismic means that you can't even outstall or pp stall this thing.

 

The only time I have seen someone use trapping as a strategy, is to beat a pokemon that is generally hard to beat or completely shuts down a particular playstyle. Hence the reason why Trapinch even exists. Not because of its stab eq, not because of how it can revenge kill so many things with, but because of how it kills Chansey.

 

If you really want to see the tier improve with more special pokemon becoming viable than just physical, if you want pokemon like manectric, walrein, lanturn etc. to see the light of day more often, this poke is one of the first things that needs to go. 

That's exactly what I see it as, but everybody would rather scoff at the thread a criticize it for the principals that it isn't uber. This is the same exact situation with Umbreon where people would rather scoff at it's offensive presence. There aren't many ways to safely dispose of Chansey or even safely pressure it out without running an unbalanced team. Chansey is not promoting the tier to evolve to deal with it because there are few ways to. Chansey is promoting small ways to dispose of it which ultimate lead to this curve and Chansey leaving the tier stagnant.

It is less of an issue of what the rules state and more of an issue of direction. Do we want to go where keeping Chansey is heading?

Edited June 1, 2015 by DrCraig

[NikhilR]

That's exactly what I see it as, but everybody would rather scoff at the thread a criticize it for the principals that it isn't uber. This is the same exact situation with Umbreon where people would rather scoff at it's offensive presence. There aren't many ways to safely dispose of Chansey or even safely pressure it out without running an unbalanced team. Chansey is not promoting the tier to evolve to deal with it because there are few ways to. Chansey is promoting small ways to dispose of it which ultimate lead to this curve and Chansey leaving the tier stagnant.

It is less of an issue of what the rules state and more of an issue of direction. Do we want to go where keeping Chansey is heading?

 

Tbh Umbreon was way, way easier to deal with. I'm not sure about special attacking wise but physically it was easier to deal with. I admit that Pursuit was a big pain because you took a lot of dmg when you switched out, but Umbreon was useless vs substitute users because ppl use sub to prevent status and to hold onto the sub depending on how offensive a pokemon is. Chansey with seismic toss can just break that sub off with ease. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by NikhilR

[Gunthug]

Muk switches into Chansey with ease, sets up a sub, and becomes extremely dangerous after that

[DrCraig]

Muk switches into Chansey with ease, sets up a sub, and becomes extremely dangerous after that

Gunt.

Don't be that guy.

[Gunthug]

Gunt.

Don't be that guy.

lel what, I didn't even mention ariados (which also poos on chansey)

Muk's not the only thing in UU that can set up 51 HP subs - it's the only one that comes to mind which is viable and can switch in on toxic too, though.

 

But I dunno, I see what you're saying about chansey and how it affects team building. I think there's an unhealthy argument to be made, I'm just not sure a good one has been made yet

[NikhilR]

Muk switches into Chansey with ease, sets up a sub, and becomes extremely dangerous after that

 

Muk isn't necessarily a big threat at that point. It can be but it entirely depends on the moveset and opponent's team. Assuming Sub / FP / Sludge / IceP or Giga, then Quag, Gligar, Claydol, Tentacruel can switch in easily.

 

252+ SpA Muk Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Claydol: 40-48 (23.9 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 Atk Muk Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 42-49 (27 - 31.6%) -- 54.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Also not to mention the fact that Chansey has same base speed as Muk and you'd prolly run -speed nature on it. So if you switch in on a seismic, then before you sub you will take another seismic which means you've lost (100 hp - leftover recovery for 2 turns). Then you will lose more health cuz you're gonna sub. That is at least over 50% of your health being taken away.

Edited June 2, 2015 by NikhilR

[Gunthug]

Muk isn't necessarily a big threat at that point. It can be but it entirely depends on the moveset and opponent's team. Assuming Sub / FP / Sludge / IceP or Giga, then Quag, Gligar, Claydol, Tentacruel can switch in easily.

252+ SpA Muk Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Claydol: 40-48 (23.9 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 42-49 (27 - 31.6%) -- 54.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also not to mention the fact that Chansey has same base speed as Muk and you'd prolly run -speed nature on it. So if you switch in on a seismic, then before you sub you will take another seismic which means you've lost (100 hp - leftover recovery for 2 turns). Then you will lose more health cuz you're gonna sub. That is at least over 50% of your health being taken away.

Completely disagree on the speed point - even if running a -speed nature you can still invest enough to outspeed the vast majority of chanseys without hurting your muk too bad I'm the other categories. Personally, I don't run a -speed nature so this is an easy task

[DoubleJ]

Why run 252+ special muk with 0 attack ivs though? Muk has so much more potential as a physical specimen.

[ThinkNice]

252+ Atk Muk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Claydol: 118-140 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Muk Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 110-129 (36.4 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252+ Atk Muk ThunderPunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 220-260 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[DoubleJ]

Considering Tent can't touch Muk this is a reasonable thing. Claydol is a nice stopper.