UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[gbwead]

4 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

Are you fucking kidding me? Did you even read the thread where I made countless posts about all the new 'viable' psychic/ghost types like jynx grumpig xatu and missy would still have shit all usage? I even went as far as to put the usage stats in some of the posts because I figured evidence was a good idea. Did you see the posts mentioning haunter usage dropping as well as exeggutor usage dropping, its on this page in this thread.

Exeggutor, that used to have 15% usage, now has 21% usage in a meta where Exeggutor isn't even needed to counter Breloom. The Exeggutor premature usage drop doesn't mean much today. Haunter went from 16% to 19%. Hypno is UU by usage now. Misdreavus and Jynx, that were unseen, sit at 3% now. 

Usage doesn't show what has the most changed tho. Exeggutor and Haunter are not played the same way. For instance, there are some nasty w-ow / hp fire haunter out there and that is something completly new imo.

[DaftCoolio]

48 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Exeggutor, that used to have 15% usage, now has 21% usage in a meta where Exeggutor isn't even needed to counter Breloom. The Exeggutor premature usage drop doesn't mean much today. Haunter went from 16% to 19%. Hypno is UU by usage now. Misdreavus and Jynx, that were unseen, sit at 3% now. 

Usage doesn't show what has the most changed tho. Exeggutor and Haunter are not played the same way. For instance, there are some nasty w-ow / hp fire haunter out there and that is something completly new imo.

Jynx was above 3% with doom and missy was at 1.6%. But they are such irrelevant pokemon in the tier even now (3% usage) that it just doesn't matter.

 

Ultimately three pokemon became slightly more viable. Three. Egg hypno and haunter (although i feel doom is a poor answer to haunter and with specs/scarf being new at the time of the doom test ban haunter hadn't fully realized its power). 

This is change we would see banning any core pokemon in uu. If you banned slowking some pokemon would rise in usage (hitmonlee, scizor, jynx) but that doesn't mean that the pokemon is unhealthy/ban worthy its just a main part of the tier and it baffles me that you all weren't able to see that.

 

Edit: I hope this doesn't become precedent for future bans and that making a tier "somewhat more diverse" doesn't become tiering policy 

Edited August 8, 2016 by DaftCoolio

[BurntZebra]

3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

So the tier council has decided that these low speed tier physical sweepers are basically automatically too much for the UU tier? Sorry but isn't that like... really biased way of approaching tiering?

 

What comes to the rest of your comment about analyzing Ursaring I find completely reasonable and fairly well written analysis. I just find it really bizarre the way these slow physical sweepers are getting instaboot from the tier while no questions asked (while amazing Pokemon like Umbreon and Vaporeon always required 'a test').

 

e: What comes to those aforementioned physical sweepers.. maybe barring Medicham which hits ridiculously hard with Pure Power, all of those physical sweepers have quite similar base stat total as the other top tier UU Pokemon. Their movepools aren't (weren't) insane, the most they did is to make stall a playstyle where they actually have to predict. All of those slow physical sweepers are disadvantaged against fast offense. I might have played too much Smogon the little time I have played Pokemon while being less active but I'm much more used to seeing some physical tanks in the tier and with Specs and Life Orb, they very rarely overperform. In addition what comes to these slow physical attackers, you seem to always add the Scarf option to them which is a legitimate concern, yes... but when they don't still reach the fastest offense in the tier with Scarf and have to face other Scarfers with less shitty speed, the opt to go for Scarf is less beneficial. You literally will see no good player ever in Smogon competitive Pokemon to run a Scarf Pokemon which won't even reach the fastest of the tier not having Scarf. Never. I tried it once and it worked horribly.

 

 

Well UU has experienced several "low speed" physical sweepers and they've all been pretty clearly too much after one tournament of testing. It's really an all or nothing situation with them. It doesn't make sense to have ursaring in the tier, when tier council has banned hariyama/rhydon, two potentially worse pokemon. I mean back when UU had rhydon+charizard+dusclops in it, I had a realization. Why are those pokemon suddenly allowed in UU, but dodrio+tauros weren't allowed still. Dusclops is the best counter to tauros besides skarmory and dodrio was stopped by rhydon+dusclops too. But when you introduce new pokemon into the tier that require very specific counters, the meta gets centralizing really fast (scizor+slowking in the last UU we had). There would have been no reason not to run rhydon+dusclops+dodrio+tauros, because if you wanted to have any chance vs the latter 2, you'd have to run the former 2, and the latter 2 can probably break past the former 2 anyways.

 

It's a lot more difficult to tell if something defensive like umbreon or vaporeon will actually be problematic. Nothing is ever really defensive uber since any wall can be stopped by some pokemon, so testing its banworthyness comes down to seeing if its unhealthy/centralizing/support uber. Even chansey was UU for a while, and no one really complained, since you could easily build around it with strong physical attackers or stuff like leech seed vileplume or haunter, but building around ursaring is quite difficult, considering there are very limited offensive checks to it, and even fewer defensive counters. There's little prediction required to get ursaring to work. The only way to really stop ursaring from killing something immediately is to switch in hitmonlee or something else with choice band superower directly in on ursaring and hope that it isn't choiced and it doesn't attack if its an sd set. This isn't really skillful play at this point; moreso reckless bravado.

 

Smogon is a bit different to us still, considering they're playing gen 6, an inherently more offensive meta (the power creep every generation), a much larger player pool, more instant teambuilding, and a different competitive player mindset. Stall almost always finds a way. Look at the top of the OU ladder on showdown and I'm betting the #1 guy is running full stall. For your actual point about scarf pokemon, the main purpose (usually) is to revenge kill set up attackers. Surprise scarf users can work sometimes, but they're usually not worth running. I could see ursaring running scarf sometimes, especially vs someone like you who typically runs offensive teams and would rely on outspeeding ursaring to take it out. When ursaring hits 175 speed, it's suddenly a lot harder to revenge kill it, but I'd say sd and cb sets are still better. 

[Arimanius]

11 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

Are you fucking kidding me? Did you even read the thread where I made countless posts about all the new 'viable' psychic/ghost types like jynx grumpig xatu and missy would still have shit all usage? I even went as far as to put the usage stats in some of the posts because I figured evidence was a good idea. Did you see the posts mentioning haunter usage dropping as well as exeggutor usage dropping, its on this page in this thread.

 

"Without offering much to support his contrary opinion" Point out the evidence in this post to support your (the TC's) decisions. "The final verdict on Houndoom is out, he is from this moment on officially banned to BL after the test period has been a success. Under Used is somewhat more diverse, more pokemon are viable now and this is what we wanted to achieve."  Not just this post but in the discussion thread as well. The arguments for ranged from "I prefer this meta" to "<Insert psychic> is good now" with little evidence to support these claims. Sure hypno has shown some promise but every other psychic type which is apparently more viable now is so low  I believe they are all NU/BL2. Haunter can still kill Doom which is why its usage was so decent even when Doom was in the tier, sludge bomb hits hard af.  Egg again dropped in usage I even showed support of hidden power calcs 2hko'ing houndoom. 

 

You have the nerve to say I offered no support? where is yours (the TC) ?

 

P.S not so much directed towards you gunt as it is towards the TC as a whole. lub u xoxoxo

 

go win 3 uu official in a row exploiting grumpig, jynx, haunter 3 different sets, sunny beam exeggutor in all of them and then come here and tell me they're not good enough without doom and even more act like when doom was here it didn't make them unusable. They're really good right now, shit players just don't know it.

 

PS: The fact that I used them in every match and didn't lose once was to shut down your specific argument about how "they're still shit now as they were before"

[DaftCoolio]

4 hours ago, Arimanius said:

go win 3 uu official in a row exploiting grumpig, jynx, haunter 3 different sets, sunny beam exeggutor in all of them and then come here and tell me they're not good enough without doom and even more act like when doom was here it didn't make them unusable. They're really good right now, shit players just don't know it.

 

PS: The fact that I used them in every match and didn't lose once was to shut down your specific argument about how "they're still shit now as they were before"

If you somehow think that winning three uu officials in a row makes your opinion that "they're really good right now" a fact you're mad. I don't have to win 3 uu officials in a row to look at the usage stats which show that missy jynx and grumpig aren't being used, thats a fact, anyone with half a brain can do that. Just because you used them in every match doesn't shutdown my argument, surely someone who has won three uu officials in a row can understand that decent teams can be built around peculiar mons. 

 

 

[RysPicz]

Just now, DaftCoolio said:

If you somehow think that winning three uu officials in a row makes your opinion that "they're really good right now" a fact you're mad. I don't have to win 3 uu officials in a row to look at the usage stats which show that missy jynx and grumpig aren't being used, thats a fact, anyone with half a brain can do that. Just because you used them in every match doesn't shutdown my argument, surely someone who has won three uu officials in a row can understand that decent teams can be built around peculiar mons. 

 

 

It's bothering me a lot Coolio... why do you leave so much space under your posts???

 

Also yeah, maybe grumpig, jynx and missy didn't get mass usage, but psychic types and ghosts did get usage- Exegg is rising with 21%, Haunter is evident more than ever with 19%, Hypno came out from fucking NU into UU with 7,5%. Jynx and MisD got almost Hypno's usage combined. For me, this sounds like a much more healthy tier- one poke was disabling so many possibilities and diversity from this tier that I totally support the iron boot of ghaey for doom. Now you got a psychic/ ghost type on almost every team, sometimes even more than one. Earlier only psychic/ ghost you could frequently see in UU was Slowking alone.

 

UU is better without the doomdoge although I don't like the offensive power of Exeggutor but that's me (and there's still the !@#$%^ ferret with normal STAB and 115 base atk).

[DaftCoolio]

13 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

It's bothering me a lot Coolio... why do you leave so much space under your posts???

In case i need to write mean things in white text so no one can see.

 

And sure egg saw a decent rise and so did hypno (both around 5% i think), haunter got a little bump (3%), jynx didn't really move and missy budged by 1.5%. But its such insignificant change that it doesn't scream unhealthiness. If pokemon had gone from no usage to 15% I would of agreed but its hard to say houndoom was unhealthy when there is such little change. Sun Egg (arguably the more common set now) could have beaten doom or at least given it a run for its money. Haunter can beat doom. Its as if we have given up doom so we can run hypno which even then isn't common, its at 7.5%. Again we could test slowking and see scizor, hitmonlee and jynx rise in usage but that doesn;t mean slowking is unhealthy it just means its good and a common pokemon in the tier. 

 

Made you look

 

 

[Arimanius]

11 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

If you somehow think that winning three uu officials in a row makes your opinion that "they're really good right now" a fact you're mad. I don't have to win 3 uu officials in a row to look at the usage stats which show that missy jynx and grumpig aren't being used, thats a fact, anyone with half a brain can do that. Just because you used them in every match doesn't shutdown my argument, surely someone who has won three uu officials in a row can understand that decent teams can be built around peculiar mons. 

The fact that I can use them in every round and win every round with at least one of them in my teams show how easily I can build teams with them now that people wont expect unlike the doom meta that u didn't see any of them EVER cause ALL OF THEM got pursuit trapped by it. Anyone with half a brain can see that

[NikhilR]

I think the rise in Haunter usage is primarily because of how it serves as a useful revenge killer for Zangoose which rightly deserves its own thread. I've always been a supporter of the doom ban because of how it prevented me from using psychic / ghost types but honestly I really haven't used either of them since the test ban. That's mostly because during 1st rounds I run stall and in the later rounds I run a team that can break holes into my opponent's defense, aka partial cteam. Still it feels great to be able to use Exeggutor because of role compression, which allows you to freely run whatever else you want.  Nonetheless while usage doesn't indicate this, I do feel that pokemon like Jynx / Misd / Grumpig are right now more viable. The reason I feel so is that Jynx can sort of have access to complete coverage to breaking some of the walls like Steelix, Vile, Cradily, Slowking, Scizor with CM / Ice Beam / Signal Beam / HP Fire while Misd can deal with bulky Kanga since Fire Punch doesn't break its sub. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by NikhilR

[DaftCoolio]

11 hours ago, Arimanius said:

The fact that I can use them in every round and win every round with at least one of them in my teams show how easily I can build teams with them now that people wont expect unlike the doom meta that u didn't see any of them EVER cause ALL OF THEM got pursuit trapped by it. Anyone with half a brain can see that

Again if you actually looked at the usage, which is something you would expect from a member of the TC and someone who was actually making this decision, you would see they did have usage. Hypno had 4%, Jynx had 3% MIssy and Xatu had 1.5% and Pig had 1%. That's 11% between them. And now Hypno is at 7.5% Jynx and Missy are at 3.6%, 14.7% between them. A 4% rise in usage doesn't seem that spectacular to me. They are almost being used the same.  

 

How have you not looked at the usage with houndoom and compared it??? You are literally on the TC. You would think you would try and make an informed decision instead of just pushing your personal opinion. 
 

Edit: and its not the first time you've straight up lied in this thread which is concerning as well

Edited August 9, 2016 by DaftCoolio

[Arimanius]

2 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

Again if you actually looked at the usage, which is something you would expect from a member of the TC and someone who was actually making this decision, you would see they did have usage. Hypno had 4%, Jynx had 3% MIssy and Xatu had 1.5% and Pig had 1%. That's 11% between them. And now Hypno is at 7.5% Jynx and Missy are at 3.6%, 14.7% between them. A 4% rise in usage doesn't seem that spectacular to me. They are almost being used the same.  

 

How have you not looked at the usage with houndoom and compared it??? You are literally on the TC. You would think you would try and make an informed decision instead of just pushing your personal opinion. 
 

Edit: and its not the first time you've straight up lied in this thread which is concerning as well

I haven't lied, I've stated already I personally used one of them in every match and in every match I won, it's 5 rounds every tourney so like 15 rounds in a row but I'm not the only one playing so it's up to people to realize they're highly more viable now to be seen in the usage. if they don't do it cause they wanna use the same teams over and over again and LOSE then we can't do anything about it but doom was banned cause it was unhealthy and it was, it's not a lie, the way it made so many good pokemons unviable is not good for the meta, now there's more diversity but if people don't realize that (like you) that's different story

[BlackJovi]

Just ban ari from TC @DaftCoolio

[DaftCoolio]

 

5 minutes ago, Arimanius said:

I haven't lied

 

11 hours ago, Arimanius said:

unlike the doom meta that u didn't see any of them EVER

Hell you even caps it for me.  Hypno had 4%, Jynx had 3% MIssy and Xatu had 1.5% and Pig had 1%. And there was the time you said houndoom meta was all about shuckle but really its usage was slightly above 3% but that was on another page so i didn't bother quoting it.

 

7 minutes ago, Arimanius said:

they're highly more viable now to be seen in the usage.  now there's more diversity 

Except its not shown in the usage, missy jynx and grumpig are still shit. Hypno is only at 7% which isn't what id call a viable/common pokemon. Haunter went up by only 3%. Exeggutor is more viable but seems to be the only significant change. Just saying the tier is more diverse doesn't actually make it so. 

 

 

[DoubleJ]

Reset UU?

 

=)

[Arimanius]

3 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

Hell you even caps it for me.  Hypno had 4%, Jynx had 3% MIssy and Xatu had 1.5% and Pig had 1%. And there was the time you said houndoom meta was all about shuckle but really its usage was slightly above 3% but that was on another page so i didn't bother quoting it.

They were used, I was one of the persons TRYING to use jynx but there was always a doom to ruin it. And yeah when I talked about shuckle everywhere I meant the top players in the tourneys cause they were the ones with teams able to stop doom and dodrio (at that time)

 

5 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

Except its not shown in the usage, missy jynx and grumpig are still shit. Hypno is only at 7% which isn't what id call a viable/common pokemon. Haunter went up by only 3%. Exeggutor is more viable but seems to be the only significant change. Just saying the tier is more diverse doesn't actually make it so. 

Again u say missy jynx and grumpig are still shit but that is your personal opinion (something u seem against btw) I've used cm grumpig once and jynx in 3 out of those 15 battles without problem and they've put a lot of pressure to teams. Not even mention haunter which has sweep entire teams by itself something it couldn't do with a doom meta unless I was lucky enough to win every speed tie.. The tier is not more diverse because I say so, the tier is more diverse cause I've tested so

[gbwead]

Something that I feel people tend to forget about the Houndoom meta is how centralising Scizor can be when Houndoom is in the tier. @Elcoolio, yourself admitted that the presence of these two pokemons in UU was problematic. Iirc, you were saying that Scizor should be the one test banned and not Houndoom. The TC gave a lot of thought to a Scizor ban, but we ultimately chose to go with Houndoom. Imo, Houndoom supports Scizor way more than Scizor supports Houndoom. The flash fire dog strongly discouradge the use of Fire moves needed to counter Scizor and also pursuit traps pokemons while being immune to w-o-w. Ultimetaly, it is quite evident that Houndoom was what was problematic about this duo.

 

When we look at the UU meta today, I don't believe Scizor is as threathening as it used to be. I haven't seen anyone really complain about Scizor and that says a lot about the sucess the test ban. A choice had to be made between a Scizor ban and a Houndoom ban. Imo, the Houndoom ban was a good choice and we can agree to disagree that a Scizor ban was a better choice. However, this disagreement is probably not worth reversing the Houndoom ban and testing Scizor for 2 months. Let's look forward and not dwell on the past.

Edited August 10, 2016 by gbwead

[DaftCoolio]

1 hour ago, Arimanius said:

They were used, I was one of the persons TRYING to use jynx but there was always a doom to ruin it. And yeah when I talked about shuckle everywhere I meant the top players in the tourneys cause they were the ones with teams able to stop doom and dodrio (at that time)

 

Again u say missy jynx and grumpig are still shit but that is your personal opinion (something u seem against btw) I've used cm grumpig once and jynx in 3 out of those 15 battles without problem and they've put a lot of pressure to teams. Not even mention haunter which has sweep entire teams by itself something it couldn't do with a doom meta unless I was lucky enough to win every speed tie.. The tier is not more diverse because I say so, the tier is more diverse cause I've tested so

You literally said before that none of them got used EVER and now you are saying that you were using them?

 

When I say missy jynx and pig are shit i mean they have shit usage, which isn't an opinion. 

 

"The tier is not more diverse because I say so, the tier is more diverse cause I've tested so"

My god. Do you realize what you're saying. You are saying its more diverse because you have tested it. That's you saying its more diverse. In the previous sentence you are saying its not more diverse because you say so and go on to say its more diverse because you say so.  

[NikhilR]

Does anyone feel like Sceptile's versatility could be too much for UU? You have mixed sets with low kick+EQ,  the hp fire endeavour set which is capable of crippling any wall, and with its high speed, it can lower itself safely to a hp for a massive giga drain boost thanks to overgrow. The access to life orb has increased its potential to poke holes into all sorts of teams. I think some pokemon that could potentially deal with it are crobat + altaria (depending on if you're bad like k9 and run hp ice) but I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.

[BlackJovi]

mb didnt see discussion thread

Edited August 14, 2016 by BlackJovi

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

Does anyone feel like Sceptile's versatility could be too much for UU? You have mixed sets with low kick+EQ,  the hp fire endeavour set which is capable of crippling any wall, and with its high speed, it can lower itself safely to a hp for a massive giga drain boost thanks to overgrow. The access to life orb has increased its potential to poke holes into all sorts of teams. I think some pokemon that could potentially deal with it are crobat + altaria (depending on if you're bad like k9 and run hp ice) but I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.

Depending on Sceptile's HP, Altaria/ Scizor can wall it. Miltank is a 100% surefire counter for it. Sceptile isn't also strong enough to 2hko Kangaskhan which is a good check for it. Swellow still outspeeds it and immeadietly threatens it, Clefable can easily outstall it with toxic/ seismic and softboiled or wish. Even with HP Ice, Cradily still can switch in and beat it (unless the Sceptile runs Focus Punch, but this is really tough to predict and once it's spoiled it's easily to play around). Then again if really wanna get rid of low HP Sceptile you can switch in a Liquid Ooze Tenta to make it kill itself with giga drain. Hypno is another surefire counter to it. If it runs HP Ice then even fucking Shedinja can switch on it every time (okay this one is a joke kek).

 

I've been playing with Sceptile for at least 3 months already. It might seem easy to use and like, once it's out it's gonna wreck everything. Unfortunately, no. Sceptile is frail and can't really switch in and a lot of common UU pokes do not get KOd by it. Sure, it is an incredibly good lategame cleaner, but so are Nidoking, Manectric, Sun Exegg or Rain Omastar.

(I'm actually still concerned about Exeggutor tbh).

[BlackJovi]

Like 4f said, sceptile is really good for late game imo, but it depends on set, there's always gonna be one poke that walls it because it can't break everything even with its versatility.. plus I see everyone running altaria + scizor now to not get swept by it, pls nik u just wanna play 6 walls :> 

[gbwead]

Hypno is pretty decent against Sceptile as well.

Venomoth Calm is godly.

Ledian Careful Early Bird Rest is the ultimate Sceptile gimmick counter xD

 

[BurntZebra]

36 minutes ago, BlackJovi said:

Like 4f said, sceptile is really good for late game imo, but it depends on set, there's always gonna be one poke that walls it because it can't break everything even with its versatility.. plus I see everyone running altaria + scizor now to not get swept by it, pls nik u just wanna play 6 walls :> 

Actually sceptile kinda incentivizes running very defensive teams. You can either run altaria+scizor+cradily+tentacruel to kinda cover all the sceptile sets and even then, sceptile can beat 3 of those (can't cover altaria and scizor at the same time though). Or you can not run 4 walls for sceptile and just have a horrible matchup vs sceptile whenever you play one. Sceptile is probably more constricting on teambuilding than zangoose at this point. 

[RysPicz]

29 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

Actually sceptile kinda incentivizes running very defensive teams. You can either run altaria+scizor+cradily+tentacruel to kinda cover all the sceptile sets and even then, sceptile can beat 3 of those (can't cover altaria and scizor at the same time though). Or you can not run 4 walls for sceptile and just have a horrible matchup vs sceptile whenever you play one. Sceptile is probably more constricting on teambuilding than zangoose at this point. 

Run Hypno. And you got all Sceptile sets covered. And even a sun exegg.

[BlackJovi]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

Run Hypno. And you got all Sceptile sets covered. And even a sun exegg.

pursuit absol eaz