UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Laz]

I don't follow you guys anymore.. why would you ban Armaldo when zangoose is already banned.
Everybody knows vaporeon and umbreon will be back to OU soon, due to their incredible bulk, and movepool ( iron defense, curse, wish, magic coat, etc )
 

[DrCraig]

I don't follow you guys anymore.. why would you ban Armaldo when zangoose is already banned.

 

I'd like to announce the following changes to the Tier lists as of 19 March 2016.

These changes are based on Usage Statistics taken during Official Tournaments.

 

The cut-off point for these changes is a 4.36% Total Usage rate in the respective tier.

This means pokemon with over 4.36% usage in OU, will be put in the OU Tier. Same applies to UU. It does not apply to NU since there is no low bound.

Pokemon with less than 4.36% in OU will be put in the UU Tier. Same applies for UU to NU.

 

You can view these here.

 

Moving up from NU to UU:

Crobat with 8.25%

Glalie with 7.12%

Zangoose with 7.12% (BL2 to UU)

Muk with 5.24%

Armaldo with 5.06%

Not. A. Ban.

[KaynineXL]

I think people need to chill, let it happen.

 

Some of the changes probably won't stick, they're probably just for testing purposes. A lot of the time you can theorymon, and on paper you'd think that a change surely can't work, but then you actually play with/against it and it's totally different to the way you expected it to be.

[Robofiend]

Kaynine hit the nail on the head- we like testing unless it's really obvious that a poke should be banned (salamence, Jynx, slaking, etc.). In all likelihood, Vap will be banned after the first tournament or two when everyone realizes that it's just plain cancerous for the tier (speculation on my part, but not a huge stretch of imagination)

Edited March 20, 2016 by Robofiend

[Liberalisme]

I don't see the point why we should bring them back when you know they will be broken. Vaporeon is too good not to use, great statt's and wish support + heal bell.

Also I am wondering why Sceptile has never been tested in UU. Imo we need more offensive pokemons in the tier. I can see Sceptile work.

[gbwead]

Also I am wondering why Sceptile has never been tested in UU. Imo we need more offensive pokemons in the tier. I can see Sceptile work.

If I recall correctly, Sceptile has been tested in the past and was deemed banworthy. Today, Sceptile's usage (5.09%) in OU is above the cut-off point (4.36%) which means it can't be considered as a potential UU.

 

[hr]

 

I would like to bounce back on something that was said.

and when something like armaldo becomes useful enough to hit the UU usage cutoff, it moves up. To keep it in NU even though it's being used enough to be considered UU defeats the entire purpose of tiers - to give pokemon that aren't being used in higher tiers a chance to shine (if they aren't too strong for the tier they're in)

Tiering based on usage is imo the right thing for PokeMMO. However, unlike Showdown, our game has a lot to do with ressources.

 

If Armaldo gets moved up to UU by usage, it does not necessarily mean that Armaldo is considered strong enough to be UU. In that sense, we need to keep in mind there is not a single player that doesn't have restrictions when it comes to teambuilding. For instance, if a NU player wants to participate to a UU tournament and if that player doesn't have a counter to Swellow, it is plausible that this player will decide to play Armaldo in UU because he doesn't have any other choice.

Even though I believe Armaldo is used in UU for its strenghts, that doesn't change the fact that the example I gave challenges the assumption that people use what they believe is the best thing for their team. In reality, people use what they can get their hands on that they believe is the best thing for their team. 

 

If Usage based tiering works for Showdown that doesn't mean it will work for PokeMMO; at the very least, we should try to find ways to adapt the tiering system of Showdown to our situation.

 

[hr]

 

 

Maybe it's time to set some real rules behind the usage updates that are made public, and maybe even reconsider the math behind the usage cutoff.

 

My suggestions:

1. Update usage every three months, regardless of the number of tournaments in each of the individual tiers
2. Propose a "quick ban" vote on any pokemon that moves from a higher tier to a lower tier (if the tier council would rather it be tested, then the vote should show that). 
3. Restructure and increase the usage cutoff value, currently it only takes one pokemon to be used 5-10x per month for it to be moved up (that's not much)

 

I think #2 and #3 are good suggestions, but I completly disagree with #1. Usage based tiering is as good as the usage that gets collected. The reason it took longer than usual to have a usage update was because some data was lost. If the usage update had happened in February like planned originally, I think Lapras would have been moved up to UU at that point with only 120 teams recorded. Such a move would have been purely circumstancial and would not have reflected the reality of our tiers.

[Gunthug]

I would like to bounce back on something that was said.

 

Tiering based on usage is imo the right thing for PokeMMO. However, unlike Showdown, our game has a lot to do with ressources.

 

If Armaldo gets moved up to UU by usage, it does not necessarily mean that Armaldo is considered strong enough to be UU. In that sense, we need to keep in mind there is not a single player that doesn't have restrictions when it comes to teambuilding. For instance, if a NU player wants to participate to a UU tournament and if that player doesn't have a counter to Swellow, it is plausible that this player will decide to play Armaldo in UU because he doesn't have any other choice.

Even though I believe Armaldo is used in UU for its strenghts, that doesn't change the fact that the example I gave challenges the assumption that people use what they believe is the best thing for their team. In reality, people use what they can get their hands on that they believe is the best thing for their team. 

 

If Usage based tiering works for Showdown that doesn't mean it will work for PokeMMO; at the very least, we should try to find ways to adapt the tiering system of Showdown to our situation.

I think you have a good point here, in that the difference between our game and other metas that work with usage-based tiering is that our meta adapts more slowly due to the resource grind. Sure, some primary NU players will use their NUs in UU, and the same can be said for primary UU players in OU. However, regardless of whether armaldo is "strong enough" for UU, it is certainly USED enough to be UU (at least, based on our cutoff). This is the whole point of tiering, and its why the tiers are named how they are (overused, underused, etc). If Armaldo is being used in UU, then it doesn't make sense to leave him in NU since the whole point of NU is to showcase pokemon not being used in the higher tier.

 

The fact that usage based tiering not only works for showdown, but has worked for every competitive pokemon metagame for the last decade, means that we'd be foolish to ditch it for something else just because we're "special." We're not that special. However, that doesn't mean the system can't be tweaked to address some peculiarities with our meta - upping the cutoff from 4.36% is something I could get behind if it meant a little more stability.

 

With regards to your last statement, 3 months is a long time. That's three team tournaments - the meta is going to have shifted by then. The usage should reflect that, and refusing to update the tiers based on usage at that point would be nothing more than procrastination. This is especially true when we get automated tournaments, automated usage, and a much more reliable sample size of usage stats to draw from

 

 

edit: also, thanks to staff for leaving this tiering discussion up, even though it doesn't really fit on this thread. I think it's important for people to see these arguments before they jump to knee jerk conclusions about "wanting the old meta back" without realizing why things are done they way they are

Edited March 20, 2016 by Gunthug

[RysPicz]

Requesting a discussion thread for Umbreon (unless you really want to reset the meta).

This thing is incredibly overcentralizing and defensively uber (jesus, 95/110/130 base defensive stats, seriously). Walls every special attacker in the tier into oblivion, even the strongest ones and some weaker physical attackers as well. Protect allows it to scout for choice band/ specs (even most powerful specs attacks cannot KO it tho:  252+ SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 91-108 (45 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), wish for reliable recovery for itself and teammates, heal bell to shit on status and huge defensive stats on both ends, making it the most powerful wall and supporter in already incredibly wally UU.

 

Why centralizing? Well, without a SD user you can dream with coming into this and trying to KO. It literally forces every player to run a SD poke in the team, otherwise it can protect on band/ specs and switch to a reliable counter.

Quickban is also an option, this thing is broken regardless of specs/ scarf.

[Arimanius]

Requesting a discussion thread for Umbreon (unless you really want to reset the meta).

This thing is incredibly overcentralizing and defensively uber (jesus, 95/110/130 base defensive stats, seriously). Walls every special attacker in the tier into oblivion, even the strongest ones and some weaker physical attackers as well. Protect allows it to scout for choice band/ specs (even most powerful specs attacks cannot KO it tho:  252+ SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 91-108 (45 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), wish for reliable recovery for itself and teammates, heal bell to shit on status and huge defensive stats on both ends, making it the most powerful wall and supporter in already incredibly wally UU.

 

Why centralizing? Well, without a SD user you can dream with coming into this and trying to KO. It literally forces every player to run a SD poke in the team, otherwise it can protect on band/ specs and switch to a reliable counter.

Quickban is also an option, this thing is broken regardless of specs/ scarf.

not to mention the curse+mean look set. It's cancer no matter how u see it

[RysPicz]

Requesting a discussion thread for Umbreon (unless you really want to reset the meta).

This thing is incredibly overcentralizing and defensively uber (jesus, 95/110/130 base defensive stats, seriously). Walls every special attacker in the tier into oblivion, even the strongest ones and some weaker physical attackers as well. Protect allows it to scout for choice band/ specs (even most powerful specs attacks cannot KO it tho:  252+ SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 91-108 (45 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), wish for reliable recovery for itself and teammates, heal bell to shit on status and huge defensive stats on both ends, making it the most powerful wall and supporter in already incredibly wally UU.

 

Why centralizing? Well, without a SD user you can dream with coming into this and trying to KO. It literally forces every player to run a SD poke in the team, otherwise it can protect on band/ specs and switch to a reliable counter.

Quickban is also an option, this thing is broken regardless of specs/ scarf.

Oh and while I'm at it, I think Kanga discussion thread can be closed instead (can it?) :p

[Tyrone]

Back in business

[DoubleJ]

To be completely honest, I think we should start Milotic in UU. It has insane bulk, but it is fairly one dementional. It might be a nice alternative to Slowking and with Sceptile in the tier, it could be limited. Just my two cents. 

[Gunthug]

18 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

To be completely honest, I think we should start Milotic in UU. It has insane bulk, but it is fairly one dementional. It might be a nice alternative to Slowking and with Sceptile in the tier, it could be limited. Just my two cents. 

I do think it could end up being OK there, but I think it's safer to start it in OU and drop it down by usage if need be - we've got a usage update coming up relatively soon IIRC

[LionKIng]

6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I do think it could end up being OK there, but I think it's safer to start it in OU and drop it down by usage if need be - we've got a usage update coming up relatively soon IIRC

be sure it will spike in usage the first few days/weeks and then slowly drop after people realise that milotic is WAY overhypped for no real reason. 

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, LionKIng said:

be sure it will spike in usage the first few days/weeks and then slowly drop after people realise that milotic is WAY overhypped for no real reason. 

That's true. it's a nice looking poke, cool to use and stuff but basically it's a worse Vaporeon.

 

Regardless, I wanted to ask about a discussion for an Exeggutor but I kinda feel others being unsure about it. I could post a lot, lot of arguments for it, needing at least a discussion thread. Thoughts?

[DoubleJ]

Exeggutor is really, really good, but it's one of those pokes that has such rare usage, the sweeper set almost always has surprise. Without Flareon being a top used poke in UU, Exegg will always have an opportunity to come and sweep with Sunny Day. 

 

At the end of the day, at least in my opinion, bulky Exegg is really good for the tier and the sweeper set offers variability that will often times get you a win because no one is rightfully prepared for it. 

 

If it becomes popular, it's going to be a lot like old UU... Cloud Nine Golduck, SpDef Flareon, Flamethrower Clefable, Ninetales, and a few others. If we have a healthy meta, I really hope Sweeper Exegg does become popular, so the tier can shift and renew itself. 

[Toast]

although sunnybeam exegg is strong as shit, imo it has a hard time switching in on anything tbh. it doesn't really like to take damage before setting up the sun because it'll get weared down by LO damage which isnt too good when its wanting to sweep

[BurntZebra]

27 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

To be completely honest, I think we should start Milotic in UU. It has insane bulk, but it is fairly one dementional. It might be a nice alternative to Slowking and with Sceptile in the tier, it could be limited. Just my two cents. 

Milotic has better stats overall than vaporeon and people were outraged that we even tested vaporeon in UU. It's physical bulk is marginally better than vaporeon and has instant recovery. It has an extra moveslot to cover more pokemon and has a much higher speed stat which lets it outspeed azumarill/donphan and anything below them, and could easily run speed for something like adamant crawdaunt. Although it loses out on heal bell+wish, it does get mirror coat and room for ice beam+toxic coverage. It also has a pretty useful ability, so toxic isn't as crippling. 

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, BurntZebra said:

Milotic has better stats overall than vaporeon and people were outraged that we even tested vaporeon in UU. It's physical bulk is marginally better than vaporeon and has instant recovery. It has an extra moveslot to cover more pokemon and has a much higher speed stat which lets it outspeed azumarill/donphan and anything below them, and could easily run speed for something like adamant crawdaunt. Although it loses out on heal bell+wish, it does get mirror coat and room for ice beam+toxic coverage. It also has a pretty useful ability, so toxic isn't as crippling. 

The difference, at least for me, is that Vaporeon has access to Wish and Milotic doesn't. Wish in a stall-oriented game is really, really toxic. Especially on something that can beat the tier on its own. 

 

I would like to see it tested, that is all. 

[Viking]

cause hype milotic will be much used for a few OU events so no way to see milotic UU and it's a good thing

[BurntZebra]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

The difference, at least for me, is that Vaporeon has access to Wish and Milotic doesn't. Wish in a stall-oriented game is really, really toxic. Especially on something that can beat the tier on its own. 

 

I would like to see it tested, that is all. 

I'd be pretty shocked if it didn't get enough usage to stay OU. Milotic seems to be quite the noob bait pokemon and is also a potential answer to snorlax since its gonna tank hits pretty easily once it gets paralyzed by snorlax, and has room for haze usually. 

[LionKIng]

1 minute ago, BurntZebra said:

I'd be pretty shocked if it didn't get enough usage to stay OU. Milotic seems to be quite the noob bait pokemon and is also a potential answer to snorlax since its gonna tank hits pretty easily once it gets paralyzed by snorlax, and has room for haze usually. 

tried it and it usually doesnt answer snorlax, sure it can take hits but it will usually result in you getting para haxed and dying.

[RysPicz]

20 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

A single UU poke in hitmontop being thrust into OU to deal with 1 poke isn't the same as highly viable, current NUs becoming used more often in UU to handle a threat

Reverse the argument, current UU poke becomes more often used to handle an OU threat. A'ka Hitmontop becomes more often used to handle Tyranitar. We both know it does not work this way Gunt, come on.

As much as defensive Exegg is a very solid poke, it has it's flaws. But with an orbed HP Fire sunnybeam set, I fear it's an offensive uber, capable of sweeping through UU with a relative ease; after sun is up, it literally 2hkos the entire tier and none of us will bring up an almost never used poke (never... used. get it?) like Flar or Ninetales just to have a fucking chance of countering an Exegg, because STAB orbed Psychic does insane amount of damage even to sdef Flar which is not viable in UU at all.

Another thing is, I've been speaking to a certain person about a mixed orbed Exeggutor with HP ice that seems to be even more threatening than the sunnybeam set- 95 base atk and 125 base satk is nothing to joke around.

9 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

I'd be pretty shocked if it didn't get enough usage to stay OU. Milotic seems to be quite the noob bait pokemon and is also a potential answer to snorlax since its gonna tank hits pretty easily once it gets paralyzed by snorlax, and has room for haze usually. 

Like I said, it's basically a worse Vaporeon. Worse bulk, no access to growth, less satk. It's only niche is instant recovery and bigger speed, other than this Vap tops it in every aspect.

Also I would be up for testing Milo in UU- with a multitude of powerful physical attackers in the tier (Hitmonlee, Kanga, Crawdaunt, Zangoose, Donphan) that can easily 2hko it along with some truly strong special attackers (Manectric, Sceptil, Exegg and obviously, the omnipresent Tentacruel) it might fit well in there.

Edited July 23, 2016 by RysPicz

[DaftCoolio]

egg wont be a problem when you guys get round to unbanning doom

[Gunthug]

5 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Reverse the argument, current UU poke becomes more often used to handle an OU threat. A'ka Hitmontop becomes more often used to handle Tyranitar. We both know it does not work this way Gunt, come on.

lol come on? You just made the same flawed argument that lion did, with slightly different wording. Ttar's ONLY reliable counter was hitmontop, we're talking about 1 ultra specific answer from a lower tier. The scenario JJ described involved several NUs becoming more used in UU naturally to handle not just one set, but a playstyle (sunny day sweepers). Not sure what you guys are missing, here.

 

I get that exegg's offensive set is pretty powerful, though