UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[gbwead]

If there was a reset, what would be worse: moving Metagross down to UU and wait to see if Metagross becomes OU by usage or moving Scizor up to OU and then wait to see if it stays OU by usage? I feel moving down to UU a pokemon that belongs by unknown usage in OU is more destructive than moving up to OU a pokemon that belongs by unknown usage in UU. Having Milotic start in OU is imo the safest move. If we put Milotic in UU and it doesn't belong there, it will screw up the UU usage for no reason.

 

Edit: Imo, the absence of a UU pokemon in the UU tier has lesser impact than the presence of a OU pokemon in the UU tier.

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by lamerb

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, lamerb said:

If there was a reset, what would be worse: moving Metagross down to UU and wait to see if Metagross becomes OU by usage or moving Scizor up to OU and then wait to see if it stays OU by usage? I feel moving down to UU a pokemon that belongs by unknown usage in OU is more destructive than moving up to OU a pokemon that belongs by unknown usage in UU. Having Milotic start in OU is imo the safest move. If we put Milotic in UU and it doesn't belong there, it will screw up the UU usage for no reason.

 

This makes the most sense. My logic with Milotic was flawed by my urge to use it in a tier where it could be more viable. I really don't see it used much in OU, maybe borderline and above the cut-off, considering bulky Waters just aren't that successful there. Even the God Vaporeon is rarely used. 

 

Totally agree on waiting to see if it is UU or OU by usage though. 

[RysPicz]

Doesn't matter about Milotic lol, we'll see if it will go down to UU in time.

 

I wanna ask about Exeggutor.

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Doesn't matter about Milotic lol, we'll see if it will go down to UU in time.

 

I wanna ask about Exeggutor.

Exeggutor Sunny Day usually loses to Hypno, Xatu and Cradily Mirror Coat. Exeggutor Sunny Day also doesn't have the coverage to deal with Scizor and Altaria/Jumpluff simultaneously.

[DestructX]

atm uu feels more balanced than it ever has

the only problem is if you don't run priority or impish scizor (which isnt very common), you're open to random sneasel or zangoose sweeps

[Gunthug]

2 minutes ago, DestructX said:

atm uu feels more balanced than it ever has

the only problem is if you don't run priority or impish scizor (which isnt very common), you're open to random sneasel or zangoose sweeps

zangoose has troubled me for a long time. I think it may deserve a closer look

[RysPicz]

6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

zangoose has troubled me for a long time. I think it may deserve a closer look

Oh I almost forgot about this one lol, was too concerned with Exeggutor which seems to have an easier time switching in and setting up/ dealing immeadiate damage/ walling

 

True tho Zangoose looks fucking scary even in OU. I remember I accidently went into OU ranked with a UU team and still managed to win against Yang because of a fucking zangoose

[BurntZebra]

3 hours ago, LionKIng said:

tried it and it usually doesnt answer snorlax, sure it can take hits but it will usually result in you getting para haxed and dying.

Well it either doesn't get paralyzed and can safely recover/haze/surf without getting haxed or it gets paralyzed and snorlax does a disappointing amount of damage in return.

180+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 39-46 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

It has trouble doing too much damage in return, but the haze set stops curselax from sweeping and milotic can potentially force snorlax to rest with either toxic or repeated surfs.

3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

 

Like I said, it's basically a worse Vaporeon. Worse bulk, no access to growth, less satk. It's only niche is instant recovery and bigger speed, other than this Vap tops it in every aspect.

Also I would be up for testing Milo in UU- with a multitude of powerful physical attackers in the tier (Hitmonlee, Kanga, Crawdaunt, Zangoose, Donphan) that can easily 2hko it along with some truly strong special attackers (Manectric, Sceptil, Exegg and obviously, the omnipresent Tentacruel) it might fit well in there.

Milotics bulk is pretty much on par with vaporeon; the higher base def and sp def make up for the lower hp. Although it does have the disadvantage of not being able to stall turns like vaporeon can, vs something like flygon, which can 2hko vaporeon and milotic, milotic has better speed and not relying on protect does have its advantages. Milotic is pretty scary when it will outspeed rhydon, an actual threat to vaporeon since sd sets can easily overpower vaporeon, and even other pokemon like metagross and arcanine. 

 

I've never really seen any growth vaporeon in OU, so I don't really think that's a justification to milotic being worse than vaporeon. Even in vaporeons short time in UU, I don't know if I ever saw growth sets, were typically 3 attack+wish sets or just wish+protect+2 attack sets. 

 

If milotic is below the cut off, then it'll most likely be tested in UU, although one thing I fear is that the process of getting milotic might delay players to actually using milotic. Even if players were able to get milotics today, it'll take a day or two to breed up something and then a decent amount of grinding to evolve the feebas as well. So the OU usage we'd be looking at is from the 22nd to the end of the usage period. and I'm pretty sure not everyone is going to be able to breed one in that time period, thus possibly skewing potential milotic usage. 

2 hours ago, lamerb said:

Exeggutor Sunny Day usually loses to Hypno, Xatu and Cradily Mirror Coat. Exeggutor Sunny Day also doesn't have the coverage to deal with Scizor and Altaria/Jumpluff simultaneously.

Hypno has to be running sp def and signal beam to actually beat exeggutor somewhat consistently. A defensive set takes way too much damage from solarbeam to actually accomplish something outside of stalling sun turns. Xatu doesn't see much usage, as it struggles with cradily+kangaskhan and the coverage on scizor+crawdaunt. It is true that exeggutor can't really ohko scizor and altaria on the same set, but the amount of people that run both of those pokemon is definitely in the minority of the competitive community. And you have to scout for what hidden power it is somehow as well, without completely risking altaria or scizor taking a big hit. Also I'd say defensive altaria isn't that great of an answer as LO psychic does a hefty chunk and hp ice will ohko. 

[DoubleJ]

Yo before we do anything else I think we need to make a decision on houndoom still first

[fredrichnietze]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Yo before we do anything else I think we need to make a decision on houndoom still first

i like doom but it seems like nothing can reliably switch in and counter doom. even nu's like flare and tails fear orb crunch.

4 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flareon: 82-97 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 69-82 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 69-82 (46.3 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

max spdef cradalily does a decent job if their is no sun. it can 2hko doom, possibly 1hko with orb dmg or spikes + a high roll. but it is 3hko's by fireblast form orb, 2hko's by fireblast form specs, and 2hko'd in sun. doom + executor could be very scary as both use the sun and counter each others counters.

 

so i logged in and checked the tiers. after doing calcs only cradalily and tenta can counter a 4hp 252 spatt 252 speed hasty doom, and only once. round two or with a small amount of damage (like spikes) they loose.

 

also doom was the very first comp i ever ev trained. neutral nature and complete shit.

Edited July 23, 2016 by fredrichnietze
oh yea, i havent played uu in so long i cant even remember

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, fredrichnietze said:

Doom is op

You are forgetting about Miltank. Houndoom usually have trouble against Magcargo, Omastar, Quagsire and like you mentionned Cradily/Altaria. We also have Diglet Scarf that can take it out. 

 

The fact that, when Dodrio/Houndoom were in UU, we saw a large amount of Shuckles being played is a big testament to how bad UU was and how hard it was to teambuild against such threaths. Having Dodrio banned during the Houndoom is not ideal and makes it difficult to conclude anything with absolute certainty. However, it seems fair to say that Houndoom participated in some way in making UU worst. I think we had 3 weeks of usage gathered in the doomless meta where both Dodrio and Breloom were both still in UU. The early usage movements at that time have shaped the foundation of the tier we have now, a more balanced tier like Des mentionned. 

 

I don't remember who it was exactly (Fredrichnietze or Senile) that once said that offensive uber pokemons don't get test banned because test banning would be pointless. A tier doesn't change that much when a Offensive Uber pokemon leaves the tier. The defining pokemons of the tier have similar usage except for the circonstancial - usually unviable - shaky counters that were used against the Offensive Uber pokemon. I honnestly don't think the ban of Dodrio changes the dynamics of the UU tier: I am pretty sure the only thing that changed is that we see less Shuckles/Omastars and more Swellows. However, skillful plays are more rewarded in a Dodrioless meta and we have more room to breath in terms of teambuilding imo.

 

Breloom getting moved up is something unexpected that happened. I have noticed that Cradily is more threathing now. A rise in Cradily's usage, a rise in usage of one of Houndoom's counter, challenges somewhat the unhealthy claims of the Houndoom test ban. However, if we keep in mind the context in which the UU tier was before the Houndoom ban, the reason why Breloom was so common in UU had a lot to do with the fact that Houndoom was hard countering Exeggutor, the best Breloom counter, and was hard countering Hypno, a decent Breloom check.

 

Cradily > Houndoom > Exeggutor/Hypno > Breloom > Cradily

 

Houndoom counters Exeggutor/Hypno to the point where these pokemons could be considered as unviable. Breloom counters Cradily, but Cradily remains viable. Therefore, in UU, the risen viability of Exeggutor/Hypno caused by Houndoom's removal is greater than the risen viability of Cradily caused by Breloom's removal. Houndoom was imo the centralising piece of the chain shown above.

 

I am making a lot of assumptions based on usage that hasn't been shown yet, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

[Arimanius]

1 hour ago, lamerb said:

Nice explanation

Yeah I agree with many of the things u said. I think houndoom made the tier a lot less diverse, u could even pair houndoom with a zangoose (piece of shitty thing) and get ride of those ghosts to be able to sweep an entire team with ease. I faced a specs haunter yesterday when fighting jj and it was really troublesome for the team I had (I had no cradily or any sp def mon and even tho I think cradily takes a lot of damage anyway), but it's alright cause we needed to make room for those things and it's always good to see different things to be played, a round before that one I faced a WoW haunter and hypno, exeggutor in two matches against timwaps and Nightarch and I could keep going and going. Houndoom meta was about shuckle/cradily/omastar(risking the hp grass) and vileplume everywhere and cradily didn't see much usage at that time because of the pressure breloom had on it.

 

About Exeggutor, it is really scary indeed, at least the LO Sunny Set, there's no real counter for it, cradily can barely pp stall the sun baring critics or some previous dmg, altaria takes too much dmg from psychic and it is ohkoed by hp ice, scizor well hp fire ruins its life. It's also not that difficult to set up cause it has nice Defense and bulk to be able to tank a physical hit at least till 40-50% life so it doesn't die too quickly to life orb.

 

And Zangoose well I've always said I want that shit gone U.u

[DaftCoolio]

1 hour ago, lamerb said:

I think we had 3 weeks of usage gathered in the doomless meta where both Dodrio and Breloom were both still in UU. The early usage movements at that time have shaped the foundation of the tier we have now, a more balanced tier like Des mentionned. 

 

But haunter and exeggutor usage went down when doom was banned. 

 

Here is with doom usage:

 

 

An here is the latest without doom usage to the 4th of July, before Dodrio and Loom were kicked

 

 

 

The top tier UU's are more or less untouched. 

 

24 minutes ago, Arimanius said:

Houndoom meta was about shuckle/cradily/omastar(risking the hp grass) and vileplume everywhere and cradily didn't see much usage at that time because of the pressure breloom had on it.

Actually you will find shuckle usage was piss all with doom and that cradily and oma had relatively low usage which remained pretty similar after doom was banned. Vileplume will always be everywhere. It's op. In a toxic infested tier a poison type wall was always going to be good. 

Please stop poisoning the well

[BlackJovi]

wasn't it only like 5 people who ran shuckle? 

[gbwead]

I said earlier that we saw large amount of Shuckles in the Dodrio/Doom meta. I meant to say that Shuckle had way more visibility at that time considering that the few players, playing Shuckle, were often seen in finals or semi-finals of UU tournaments.

[fredrichnietze]

7 hours ago, lamerb said:

You are forgetting about Miltank. Houndoom usually have trouble against Magcargo, Omastar, Quagsire and like you mentionned Cradily/Altaria. We also have Diglet Scarf that can take it out. 

 

The fact that, when Dodrio/Houndoom were in UU, we saw a large amount of Shuckles being played is a big testament to how bad UU was and how hard it was to teambuild against such threaths. Having Dodrio banned during the Houndoom is not ideal and makes it difficult to conclude anything with absolute certainty. However, it seems fair to say that Houndoom participated in some way in making UU worst. I think we had 3 weeks of usage gathered in the doomless meta where both Dodrio and Breloom were both still in UU. The early usage movements at that time have shaped the foundation of the tier we have now, a more balanced tier like Des mentionned. 

 

I don't remember who it was exactly (Fredrichnietze or Senile) that once said that offensive uber pokemons don't get test banned because test banning would be pointless. A tier doesn't change that much when a Offensive Uber pokemon leaves the tier. The defining pokemons of the tier have similar usage except for the circonstancial - usually unviable - shaky counters that were used against the Offensive Uber pokemon. I honnestly don't think the ban of Dodrio changes the dynamics of the UU tier: I am pretty sure the only thing that changed is that we see less Shuckles/Omastars and more Swellows. However, skillful plays are more rewarded in a Dodrioless meta and we have more room to breath in terms of teambuilding imo.

 

Breloom getting moved up is something unexpected that happened. I have noticed that Cradily is more threathing now. A rise in Cradily's usage, a rise in usage of one of Houndoom's counter, challenges somewhat the unhealthy claims of the Houndoom test ban. However, if we keep in mind the context in which the UU tier was before the Houndoom ban, the reason why Breloom was so common in UU had a lot to do with the fact that Houndoom was hard countering Exeggutor, the best Breloom counter, and was hard countering Hypno, a decent Breloom check.

 

Cradily > Houndoom > Exeggutor/Hypno > Breloom > Cradily

 

Houndoom counters Exeggutor/Hypno to the point where these pokemons could be considered as unviable. Breloom counters Cradily, but Cradily remains viable. Therefore, in UU, the risen viability of Exeggutor/Hypno caused by Houndoom's removal is greater than the risen viability of Cradily caused by Breloom's removal. Houndoom was imo the centralising piece of the chain shown above.

 

I am making a lot of assumptions based on usage that hasn't been shown yet, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

i didnt forget miltank. i did the calcs in the middle of the night 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 106-126 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and forgot miltank got thick fat.

 

yea mitank beats doom. it is the only counter with healing that can beat doom possibly more then once. however if it is damaged as little as 25% and forced to switch it can be 2hko'd by doom. it is a counter, but it counters doom the way vaporeon counters rhydon, barely. it needs full health or close.

 

also your theory on the meta usage looks accurate. also senile always used to go on about how pokemmo meta changes slowly. because of the length of time making comps takes the meta can take up to 3 months to adjust to a change. some people will adjust very quickly but quite a few wont because they only have a few hours a week or month and if they arent in the loop they wont know about it until the next tourney and they see the change.

[OrangeManiac]

Okay, I know I'm going to get a looooot of shit for this but...

 

I really think you guys should try out Ursaring in UU before actually banning it to BL. You might feel like Ursaring is such a beast while it was fairly used in OU for a long time but that was due to the Weez+Chansey metagame and the ability Guts helped there a lot. The ability Guts is everything but amazing in UU. It cannot spam Normal CB due to Steelix, Scizor, Cradily and Haunter.. CB set in general seems like a double-edged sword in UU and needs a lot of prediction. Meanwhile special sweepers can really punish Ursaring (Specs could even OHKO a non bulk one?) while if Ursaring is 252 HP and 0 speed then it is almost the slowest Pokemon of the tier. I'm aware I'm mainly listing the negative things of Ursaring instead of realizing its potential but I still think Ursaring necessarily isn't the kind of monster that deserves an instaboot from UU tier, could be like Granbull in current NU.

[BurntZebra]

6 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Okay, I know I'm going to get a looooot of shit for this but...

 

I really think you guys should try out Ursaring in UU before actually banning it to BL. You might feel like Ursaring is such a beast while it was fairly used in OU for a long time but that was due to the Weez+Chansey metagame and the ability Guts helped there a lot. The ability Guts is everything but amazing in UU. It cannot spam Normal CB due to Steelix, Scizor, Cradily and Haunter.. CB set in general seems like a double-edged sword in UU and needs a lot of prediction. Meanwhile special sweepers can really punish Ursaring (Specs could even OHKO a non bulk one?) while if Ursaring is 252 HP and 0 speed then it is almost the slowest Pokemon of the tier. I'm aware I'm mainly listing the negative things of Ursaring instead of realizing its potential but I still think Ursaring necessarily isn't the kind of monster that deserves an instaboot from UU tier, could be like Granbull in current NU.

The precedent has already been set that there won't be outrageously powerful sweepers in UU such as medicham, rhydon, machamp, hariyama, blaziken (did drop to UU at one point), slaking, etc. Sure the choice band set has switch ins if you predict, but the choice band set is pretty bad compared to the swords dance set and even choice scarf sets and bulk up sets. The 252 hp ursaring set (which still outspeeds every relevant wall) can only be ohko'ed by stab fighting moves at this point and can easily 1v1 vs any pokemon in the tier bar hitmonlee. The choice scarf set hits a decent speed of 175 which lets it outpace manectric and anything below that speed. Nothing can really switch in safely vs an sd ursaring. Faster pokemon get ohko'ed and don't ohko ursaring. Slower pokemon get ohko'ed once ursaring goes +2 and can't even 2hko ursaring typically. 

 

Ursaring has a few things that granbull doesn't. Better special bulk. Better attack. Better speed. Access to swords dance. A very useful offensive ability (intimidate is nice, but doesn't help in boosting granbull's own offense). Swords dance and the speed are the big ones. Granbull either needs to run a choice band set or a 4 attack life orb set to really accomplish a lot in a match, since its special defense is too low to set up bulk up at all. Those limit granbulls options a lot, especially in a meta that relies more on immunities and resists, rather than sheer bulk (although this might change now with blastoise+hitmontop+lapras which can blanket check lots of pokemon). 

 

Personally, I've seen enough tournaments to know that this would have ended up as another repeat in history. I've seen machamp beat teams in UU on its own. I've seen hariyama beat teams on its own. I ran rhydon which beat teams on its own. It doesn't really take rocket science to realize that a pokemon with perfect coverage, only one weakness to fighting, which only hitmonlee has stab fighting in the tier now, a very usable speed tier, and different set options (band/scarf/life orb/bulk up/sd), coupled with above average bulk for an offensive pokemon, makes it pretty obvious that it's going to be offensive uber and fairly centralizing as soon as people start to breed them for UU. 

[DaftCoolio]

"The final verdict on Houndoom is out, he is from this moment on officially banned to BL after the test period has been a success.

Under Used is somewhat more diverse, more pokemon are viable now and this is what we wanted to achieve." 

 

jesus christ. following this ruling can we discuss kanga plume scizor and slowking. i think that these pokemon fit the criteria by banning them uu will become "somewhat more diverse"

[gbwead]

24 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Okay, I know I'm going to get a looooot of shit for this but...

 

I really think you guys should try out Ursaring in UU before actually banning it to BL. You might feel like Ursaring is such a beast while it was fairly used in OU for a long time but that was due to the Weez+Chansey metagame and the ability Guts helped there a lot. The ability Guts is everything but amazing in UU. It cannot spam Normal CB due to Steelix, Scizor, Cradily and Haunter.. CB set in general seems like a double-edged sword in UU and needs a lot of prediction. Meanwhile special sweepers can really punish Ursaring (Specs could even OHKO a non bulk one?) while if Ursaring is 252 HP and 0 speed then it is almost the slowest Pokemon of the tier. I'm aware I'm mainly listing the negative things of Ursaring instead of realizing its potential but I still think Ursaring necessarily isn't the kind of monster that deserves an instaboot from UU tier, could be like Granbull in current NU.

Ursaring, Hariyama and Machamp are incredibly powerful wallbreakers and can pretty much secure a kill every time they come in play. They are all banned for fitting offensive uber characteristics, but that doesn't mean they will remain banned. 

One thing to keep in mind is that the Summer Ball ends on the 2nd of September and the next usage update will be the 4th of September. If Ursaring moves to UU this update, he will be allowed during the rest of Summer Ball. If Ursaring ends up being completly broken, there is a lot at stake. Testing new threaths is ideal and I must admit that you were right about NU threaths more than once, but an Ursaring test is just not something we can afford right now imo.

[DoubleJ]

3 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

"The final verdict on Houndoom is out, he is from this moment on officially banned to BL after the test period has been a success.

Under Used is somewhat more diverse, more pokemon are viable now and this is what we wanted to achieve." 

 

jesus christ. following this ruling can we discuss kanga plume scizor and slowking. i think that these pokemon fit the criteria by banning them uu will become "somewhat more diverse"

Not to stir the pot, but I completely agree with this. Houndoom wasn't banned for being unhealthy, it was banned because of a subjective opinion on a meta that has since become extinct (Dodrio banned, Breloom moved up, a few other important changes). 

 

I think it was said already, but a decision on Houndoom should have been made before we banned anything else OR it should have been tested in this slightly different meta. Currently, the ban made today was based on a meta from several months ago. 

 

#subjective

[Gunthug]

4 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Not to stir the pot, but I completely agree with this. Houndoom wasn't banned for being unhealthy, it was banned because of a subjective opinion on a meta that has since become extinct (Dodrio banned, Breloom moved up, a few other important changes). 

 

I think it was said already, but a decision on Houndoom should have been made before we banned anything else OR it should have been tested in this slightly different meta. Currently, the ban made today was based on a meta from several months ago. 

 

#subjective

Not sure why you're grandstanding behind the word "subjective," it was a fucking unhealthiness ban which is essentially only measured with subjective means. How can you objectively determine whether a pokemon is "unhealthy" when the word unhealthy has such a broad, unspecific meaning? Noticing that psychics/ghosts were rendered completely useless in a tier with houndoom, and then getting feedback that psychics/ghosts are now viable and healthy in a tier w/o houndoom is about as objective as we can possibly do.

 

Anyway, the decision about houndoom was absolutely unanimous on TC with very little, if any, dissent. I saw literally no arguments against a houndoom ban for the duration of the test, as the only argument coolio has ever offered is to tear down the semantics of the tier council leader without offering much to support his contrary opinion

[DaftCoolio]

31 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Anyway, the decision about houndoom was absolutely unanimous on TC with very little, if any, dissent. I saw literally no arguments against a houndoom ban for the duration of the test, as the only argument coolio has ever offered is to tear down the semantics of the tier council leader without offering much to support his contrary opinion

Are you fucking kidding me? Did you even read the thread where I made countless posts about all the new 'viable' psychic/ghost types like jynx grumpig xatu and missy would still have shit all usage? I even went as far as to put the usage stats in some of the posts because I figured evidence was a good idea. Did you see the posts mentioning haunter usage dropping as well as exeggutor usage dropping, its on this page in this thread.

 

"Without offering much to support his contrary opinion" Point out the evidence in this post to support your (the TC's) decisions. "The final verdict on Houndoom is out, he is from this moment on officially banned to BL after the test period has been a success. Under Used is somewhat more diverse, more pokemon are viable now and this is what we wanted to achieve."  Not just this post but in the discussion thread as well. The arguments for ranged from "I prefer this meta" to "<Insert psychic> is good now" with little evidence to support these claims. Sure hypno has shown some promise but every other psychic type which is apparently more viable now is so low  I believe they are all NU/BL2. Haunter can still kill Doom which is why its usage was so decent even when Doom was in the tier, sludge bomb hits hard af.  Egg again dropped in usage I even showed support of hidden power calcs 2hko'ing houndoom. 

 

You have the nerve to say I offered no support? where is yours (the TC) ?

 

P.S not so much directed towards you gunt as it is towards the TC as a whole. lub u xoxoxo

 

 

 

 

 

[OrangeManiac]

11 hours ago, BurntZebra said:

The precedent has already been set that there won't be outrageously powerful sweepers in UU such as medicham, rhydon, machamp, hariyama, blaziken (did drop to UU at one point), slaking, etc. 

So the tier council has decided that these low speed tier physical sweepers are basically automatically too much for the UU tier? Sorry but isn't that like... really biased way of approaching tiering?

 

What comes to the rest of your comment about analyzing Ursaring I find completely reasonable and fairly well written analysis. I just find it really bizarre the way these slow physical sweepers are getting instaboot from the tier while no questions asked (while amazing Pokemon like Umbreon and Vaporeon always required 'a test').

 

e: What comes to those aforementioned physical sweepers.. maybe barring Medicham which hits ridiculously hard with Pure Power, all of those physical sweepers have quite similar base stat total as the other top tier UU Pokemon. Their movepools aren't (weren't) insane, the most they did is to make stall a playstyle where they actually have to predict. All of those slow physical sweepers are disadvantaged against fast offense. I might have played too much Smogon the little time I have played Pokemon while being less active but I'm much more used to seeing some physical tanks in the tier and with Specs and Life Orb, they very rarely overperform. In addition what comes to these slow physical attackers, you seem to always add the Scarf option to them which is a legitimate concern, yes... but when they don't still reach the fastest offense in the tier with Scarf and have to face other Scarfers with less shitty speed, the opt to go for Scarf is less beneficial. You literally will see no good player ever in Smogon competitive Pokemon to run a Scarf Pokemon which won't even reach the fastest of the tier not having Scarf. Never. I tried it once and it worked horribly.

 

@gbwead

If Ursaring moves to UU this update, he will be allowed during the rest of Summer Ball. If Ursaring ends up being completly broken, there is a lot at stake. Testing new threaths is ideal and I must admit that you were right about NU threaths more than once, but an Ursaring test is just not something we can afford right now imo.

 

Well this is fair enough.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by OrangeManiac
cuz reasons

[KaynineXL]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Houndoom moved up to OU soon anyway. Those wow, psy, prot, wish Gardevoirs are starting to become ever more popular in OU and it's just perfect for doom. I personally used it a lot in the last OU official.

 

Just saying, it might not be worth arguing for Doom. When does the usage come in next?