[Discussion] Snorlax/Blissey's Place in the OU Meta (Snorlax AND Blissey moved to Ubers)

[DoubleJ]

I like the visuals

Man why does Magneton not see more use, it's great for gengar and Pory. Traps steels too like cool man.

 

Until you run into HP Ground or HP Fire P2 which just traps with Trace and kills you.

 

It's a good option against Gengar but...

 

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 46-54 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes

 

Spikes support OP, Gengar still strong as fuck. Mag switches in and takes a layer of Spikes damage and a Shadow Ball to the face. Magneton either switches out without any reliable recovery and risks taking further Spikes damage, or proceeds to pull off one strong Thunderbolt before dying to a third Shadow Ball. If three layers of spikes are in play, well Magneton is just dead. Running 252 HP Mag's is a bad idea imo since you put yourself at risk to some very strong bulky attackers like Ursaring and Machamp, both of which you typically outspeed and can hit first. 

[SpartacusGD]

Lets not ignore the fact that starmie (1 of the viable sp atkers) lost alot of usage due to prevalence of umbreon and ludicolo. So basically based on these usage stats the effect isnt really healthy.

[NikhilR]

 

Until you run into HP Ground or HP Fire P2 which just traps with Trace and kills you.

 

It's a good option against Gengar but...

 

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 46-54 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes

 

Spikes support OP, Gengar still strong as fuck. Mag switches in and takes a layer of Spikes damage and a Shadow Ball to the face. Magneton either switches out without any reliable recovery and risks taking further Spikes damage, or proceeds to pull off one strong Thunderbolt before dying to a third Shadow Ball. If three layers of spikes are in play, well Magneton is just dead. Running 252 HP Mag's is a bad idea imo since you put yourself at risk to some very strong bulky attackers like Ursaring and Machamp, both of which you typically outspeed and can hit first. 

 

 

Rest-Talk Magneton is the new meta Joey. 

 

Lets not ignore the fact that starmie (1 of the viable sp atkers) lost alot of usage due to prevalence of umbreon and ludicolo. So basically based on these usage stats the effect isnt really healthy.

 

When I played in the current meta, I was forced to run starmie because of how I wanted to revenge kill Gengar or in other words, not be swept by one. However the advantages of playing starmie far outweigh the disadvantages because of its amazing coverage. It sucks when you face an Umbreon and at that point you're forced to predict because the only time you can switch out safely is when it wishes. If your pair your Starmie with a Venusaur, it shits all over Ludicolo. Just a good "synergy" combo for you brah :P

[SpartacusGD]

Just sayin starmie lost usage, based on the stats blonde posted

[NikhilR]

Just sayin starmie lost usage, based on the stats blonde posted

 

Well tbh, the starmie that was used then and being used now are playing 2 different roles. I do get your point where you're saying that starmie lost usage, but the starmie that you used to find most common before the bans, would be the recover/tbolt/surf/rapid spin one. Now such a starmie has no place in the current meta since people probably wouldn't be setting up spikes because most of the meta is now more special-oriented than physical.

 

Hopefully or may be with time, Starmie's usage will rise when people start to use the 252 spak/speed set. 

[ThinkNice]

I'm wondering why nobody addressed Cody on his posts? Bans and this test aren't about adding variety. In truth any ban ever is going to add variety so it's a shitty point to focus on. In short, it's not about variety at all it's about the health of the metagame.

 

'Hey the two most used Pokémon in our meta are removed and somehow there is so much variety now!' I mean, if it was about that we wouldn't need a suspect test to prove it. Because it's common sense that there would be more variety. Or in this case, other Pokémon used, which doesn't equal variety.

[codylramey]

I'm wondering why nobody addressed Cody on his posts? Bans and this test aren't about adding variety. In truth any ban ever is going to add variety so it's a shitty point to focus on. In short, it's not about variety at all it's about the health of the metagame.

 

'Hey the two most used Pokémon in our meta are removed and somehow there is so much variety now!' I mean, if it was about that we wouldn't need a suspect test to prove it. Because it's common sense that there would be more variety. Or in this case, other Pokémon used, which doesn't equal variety.

wasnt the meta unhealthy bc of lack of varity. You saw the same stuff over n over again. I mean the whole reason the lax ban was revoked was bc we still saw the same stuff as we did b4. If it wasnt that then what do you mean by unhealthy, bc that is a vague term.

[ThinkNice]

Sure let me just post the link that I posted a 100 times.

[gbwead]

Lets not ignore the fact that starmie (1 of the viable sp atkers) lost alot of usage due to prevalence of umbreon and ludicolo. So basically based on these usage stats the effect isnt really healthy.

The problem is that those usage stats are not representative in anyway of the old meta. If pikachu was really at 10%, there is no way he would end up in NU. Dusclops/Cloyster/Kingdra would all be moved down to BL.

 

I honnestly doubt that Starmie usage went down since the test ban.

 

Edit: The team tournament of May only had 30 duels which is way too low imo to make any kind of assumption.

Edited June 30, 2015 by lamerb

[NikhilR]

Oh, so now the spiking, rapid spinning is dead? So much for diversity... Let's ban all Gen 2 and 3 pokemons and play Gen 1. I guarantee you balance.

 

Well it does still exist but I feel like the meta is a lot more offense oriented and since spakers are more viable, it's very hard to set up spikes and easier to spin them. If you've done some excellent team building, then I'm sure you'll be able to run a good stall team with spikes. 

[bl0nde]

I honestly doubt that Starmie usage went down since the test ban.

I put up more data and got it better organized. Sorry I didn't have it like that before.

Edited June 30, 2015 by bl0nde

[Robofiend]

I'm wondering why nobody addressed Cody on his posts? Bans and this test aren't about adding variety. In truth any ban ever is going to add variety so it's a shitty point to focus on. In short, it's not about variety at all it's about the health of the metagame.

 

'Hey the two most used Pokémon in our meta are removed and somehow there is so much variety now!' I mean, if it was about that we wouldn't need a suspect test to prove it. Because it's common sense that there would be more variety. Or in this case, other Pokémon used, which doesn't equal variety.

 

You're right that it's not directly about variety, it's about health. But variety is an indicator of health, thus healthy metas tend to be varied and unhealthy ones tend to be more uniform. It is "at all" about variety, but that's just a part of what we're looking for in a metagame. A metagame that's extremely varied but lacks other key attributes of health isn't de facto better than a comparably less varied one, especially if the latter is healthier in other regards.

 

Also, I'd contest (mostly a nitpick) that *any* ban would equate to more variety: if we banned P2, for instance, Jolteon+Gyarados would be an amazing combo just because of their sheer offensive presence - other Tracers like Gardevoir eventually fall to Shadow Ball or Crunch, and people would have to run something like Weezing in order to guarantee protection against Gyarados. Similarly, banning Blissey didn't *really* make more variety, it just caused Blissey usage to change while everything else stayed about the same (with some small differences). 

 

Nonetheless, you are right that we should be arguing about overall health, not the actual usage stats, because the health of the metagame depends on a lot more than just raw usage. Sorry to nitpick when it comes to all of the above, this post is more for other people than it is for you. Arguments like:

 

"Starmie usage went down!!!!"

"Jolteon usage went down!!!"

"Look at how highly X is used now!!!"

 

Don't really make a point about whether the game is more competitive, balanced, varied, etc. without Bliss/Lax - they just point out the obvious.

[DoubleJ]

You're right that it's not directly about variety, it's about health. But variety is an indicator of health, thus healthy metas tend to be varied and unhealthy ones tend to be more uniform. It is "at all" about variety, but that's just a part of what we're looking for in a metagame. A metagame that's extremely varied but lacks other key attributes of health isn't de facto better than a comparably less varied one, especially if the latter is healthier in other regards.

 

Also, I'd contest (mostly a nitpick) that *any* ban would equate to more variety: if we banned P2, for instance, Jolteon+Gyarados would be an amazing combo just because of their sheer offensive presence - other Tracers like Gardevoir eventually fall to Shadow Ball or Crunch, and people would have to run something like Weezing in order to guarantee protection against Gyarados. Similarly, banning Blissey didn't *really* make more variety, it just caused Blissey usage to change while everything else stayed about the same (with some small differences). 

 

Nonetheless, you are right that we should be arguing about overall health, not the actual usage stats, because the health of the metagame depends on a lot more than just raw usage. Sorry to nitpick when it comes to all of the above, this post is more for other people than it is for you. Arguments like:

 

"Starmie usage went down!!!!"

"Jolteon usage went down!!!"

"Look at how highly X is used now!!!"

 

Don't really make a point about whether the game is more competitive, balanced, varied, etc. without Bliss/Lax - they just point out the obvious.

 

That's all well and good and all, but the real question simply is, what do you think of the meta at hand? That's what we care about, because that's what's going to determine how this all plays out. 

We don't need the same spoonfed story about what we should be arguing about. We want the OU Council to have a presence in discussion and lead us down some roads that may provide insight into what they think. 

[Noad]

Due to the lack of OU tournaments recently, I have decided to extend the Snorlax and Blissey ban across 4 more OU tournaments. The slow progress made with this test is the fault of myself and not the OU Council, I have simply not had time to host tournaments as regularly as I would have liked in this case. I can assure you that the 4 OU tournaments will not be spaced out across a long period of time, the test will be extended by around 10 days at most. 

 

By then I can provide both the players and the council with some indicative usage to discuss the meta with and without Blissey and Snorlax. I apologise for the inconvenience that this may cause to some players and, as always, I appreciate the dedication that the players have to the competitive scene. 

 

Any players who would like to discuss this with myself further are welcome to shoot me a PM. 

[Robofiend]

That's all well and good and all, but the real question simply is, what do you think of the meta at hand? That's what we care about, because that's what's going to determine how this all plays out. 

We don't need the same spoonfed story about what we should be arguing about. We want the OU Council to have a presence in discussion and lead us down some roads that may provide insight into what they think. 

 

I think it's disturbing that Gengar is so highly used and hard to check, but that's more of a problem with Gengar being Uber than the overall meta. It's not that Gengar's particularly unhealthy, it's just that it's too freakin good not to use. 

 

I think the meta's much healthier in that, outside of Gengar, everything is pretty well-checked. Even Reversal, one of my least favorite things about the OU Meta, is well-checked with Arcanine's relatively high 30% usage rate. Overall, I like the "chaotic" aspect of the game, but there's obviously a problem with Gengar's 75% usage rate.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

I think it's disturbing that Gengar is so highly used and hard to check, but that's more of a problem with Gengar being Uber than the overall meta. It's not that Gengar's particularly unhealthy, it's just that it's too freakin good not to use. 

 

I think the meta's much healthier in that, outside of Gengar, everything is pretty well-checked. Even Reversal, one of my least favorite things about the OU Meta, is well-checked with Arcanine's relatively high 30% usage rate.

 

What do you think about trapping though in this meta? Dugtrio can easily beat Umbreon and Porygon2 with a reversal set, while Pursuit users are everywhere trying to knock off weak special threats. 

 

What are you thoughts about this meta vs the meta with just Snorlax banned?

[codylramey]

Gengar's 75% usage rate.

Do you know something we dont? (Or i dont)

[Gunthug]

Do you know something we dont? (Or i dont)

Looking just at blonde's post at the top of this page, it seems the 75% is coming from the most recent TT

[codylramey]

Looking just at blonde's post at the top of this page, it seems the 75% is coming from the most recent TT

Holy fuck i didnt realize those were posted yet.

 

Aside from gengar just looking at usage it seems like OU doesnt have 1 poke >50% which is wonderful imo.

[DoubleJ]

Holy fuck i didnt realize those were posted yet.

 

Aside from gengar just looking at usage it seems like OU doesnt have 1 poke >50% which is wonderful imo.

 

Have you played it though? Variety in usage can be a double-edge sword that hides chaos when there aren't answers to certain threats. In my opinion, players right now are just scrambling to find a quality team, but are having trouble outside of just spamming Gengar. In a chaotic environment, no player can truly master the tier. Call this adaptation, but when the meta still feels like shit a month from now, I'm going to think it's more chaos than normal efforts of adaptation. 

[Robofiend]

What do you think about trapping though in this meta? Dugtrio can easily beat Umbreon and Porygon2 with a reversal set, while Pursuit users are everywhere trying to knock off weak special threats. 

 

What are you thoughts about this meta vs the meta with just Snorlax banned?

 

I said this before in the Dugtrio thread, but a couple of points:

 

Special sweepers can't sweep as well as they used to. Aerodactyl is now viable, Starmie gets trapped by Metagross, Aerodactyl (RK) and Umbreon, so even if you're trying to pull the old StarTrio trick, you're going to run into issues. You can kill Umbreon, but now you need to win the game with a half-health Starmie trying to sweep through things that can rip through poorly-prepared teams. On top of that, teams have to worry about Reversal sweepers (Heracross), Espeed Arcanine, teams with Special cores (not just Umbreon or P2) or one of your own (weakened) special sweepers getting knocked out before Dugtrio can work its magic. If Gengar isn't in the picture, it's not as easy to 2-shot the whole meta once Umbreon goes down.

 

As for Pursuiters - I think they're good. It sucks to get trapped, but there's always the mindgame factor where your opponent Pursuits your Starmie, only to get hit with a KO Surf (or whatever). Pursuit's a great tool for offense, and as much as I hate it sometimes I think it's ultimately a force for good.

 

As for this meta v. Snorlax banned meta:

 

I honestly "liked" the Blissey meta more because Gengar is 2stronk now. But it's also clear that Blissey was still 2gud when it came to protecting against special sweepers. As I said once before, you're mistaking "chaos" for a metagame that hasn't stabilized yet. If it never stabilizes, that's a problem. But for now the lack of stability is probably due to Gengar being really really good and people not having time to come up with new ways of abusing the usage stats.

[codylramey]

Have you played it though? Variety in usage can be a double-edge sword that hides chaos when there aren't answers to certain threats. In my opinion, players right now are just scrambling to find a quality team, but are having trouble outside of just spamming Gengar. In a chaotic environment, no player can truly master the tier. Call this adaptation, but when the meta still feels like shit a month from now, I'm going to think it's more chaos than normal efforts of adaptation. 

I have played it, was in the oceanic. Loss mainly due to gengar (overheat missing twice in a row didnt help). I also played a lot in viridian but not against anyone worth mentioning. I mean i understand what you are saying, and im not going to disagree with ur statement here. The meta is far from settled, you can tell by the vast differences in usage btwn the two tournies we have had recently. 

[DoubleJ]

I said this before in the Dugtrio thread, but a couple of points:

 

Special sweepers can't sweep as well as they used to. Aerodactyl is now viable, Starmie gets trapped by Metagross, Aerodactyl (RK) and Umbreon, so even if you're trying to pull the old StarTrio trick, you're going to run into issues. You can kill Umbreon, but now you need to win the game with a half-health Starmie trying to sweep through things that can rip through poorly-prepared teams. On top of that, teams have to worry about Reversal sweepers (Heracross), Espeed Arcanine, teams with Special cores (not just Umbreon or P2) or one of your own (weakened) special sweepers getting knocked out before Dugtrio can work its magic. If Gengar isn't in the picture, it's not as easy to 2-shot the whole meta once Umbreon goes down.

 

Copy and pasting probably wasn't the best idea here. Special Sweepers can sweep even better than they used to in this meta without Blissey or Snorlax. Sure Aerodactyl is viable, but it doesn't stand up to bulky Metagross which are now creeping up in usage to help stop the Special Threats. Starmie is certainly one of the weaker special sweepers we have available, but it's coverage is undeniable. While Metagross and Scizor can hurt it with Pursuit, nothing else really does when you're looking one to one. Umbreon can be removed from the picture so easily and we've discussed this, but the idea that Gengar can't 2-shot the whole meta is silly, because honestly it can. Specially Bulky Arcanine is reasonable, but 252+ STAB Sludge Bomb still hurts. Reversal sweepers also really just don't have the opportunity to sweep, whether that is due to increased special offense, the presence of Espeed Arc, or simply because Gengar is still floating around. Honestly, I don't think your statement here was well thought out, that or you just don't know what OU looks like right now. 

 

As for Pursuiters - I think they're good. It sucks to get trapped, but there's always the mindgame factor where your opponent Pursuits your Starmie, only to get hit with a KO Surf (or whatever). Pursuit's a great tool for offense, and as much as I hate it sometimes I think it's ultimately a force for good.

 

Most pursuit trappers are Metagross and Scizor, both of which don't take Surf amazingly well, but neither dies to Surf in one hit either. My problem here is the necessity of Pursuit to stop some of the special threats like Gardevoir and Starmie, both of whom are really, really good right now. 

 

As for this meta v. Snorlax banned meta:

 

I honestly "liked" the Blissey meta more because Gengar is 2stronk now. But it's also clear that Blissey was still 2gud when it came to protecting against special sweepers. As I said once before, you're mistaking "chaos" for a metagame that hasn't stabilized yet. If it never stabilizes, that's a problem. But for now the lack of stability is probably due to Gengar being really really good and people not having time to come up with new ways of abusing the usage stats.

 

I liked the Blissey meta more as well, simply because I find Gengar to be a necessity for our meta. It's fucking good, but it also holds a lot of things in check like the reversal users, fighting types, and most notably Heracross. Blissey forced Gengar to run sets outside of a pure special sweeping set which was good. That alone promoted variability in team design. While I think Gengar deserves a ban in this suspect test, I wouldn't view it as beneficial in anyway when we have a much better option that preserves two pokemon, Blissey and Gengar. Umbreon usage should increase in a Blissey meta since it serves to stop Bliss with Mean Look + Toxic, and also trap Gengar with STAB Pursuit. 

 

Honestly though, is it just our own bias' stepping in the way of what we should be seeing? Take for example my opinion on this Snorlax + Blissey suspect test. I hate it and I'm finding every reason to try and upend it. While this was of your design and thus despite seeing a ban on just Snorlax as better, you are still focusing on ways to make this our standard meta by banning Gengar too and arguing that our lack of checks and counters for common threats isn't chaos, but adaptation which has been going on for 3 weeks. 

 

Some of the brightest minds in this game still haven't found reasonable teams in this meta and I'm sure you can also see the problem with banning Gengar too. It doesn't take much. 

 

I'm all about promoting simple changes to make a positive impact on our game. Banning the pillars by which OU stood is not a simple change. It also forces the necessity to ban Gengar, another pillar of OU. These are drastic moves that don't align with tiering protocol. 

 

Seriously though, you guys come down on UU for banning Umbreon under an inappropriate decision while you attempt to do the same thing here in OU. Consistency doesn't exist and it has turned into a real drag for most players.

 

Thank you for your responses though, I really appreciate it. 

Edited June 30, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Barrage]

On phone so sorry for lack of formatting, but I just want to say that I feel like some players are a bit blinded by habituation in my opinion. Some things are super centralizing but we are jaded because we are used to having the checks. IMO basically being forced to run Arcanine is bad. Reversal sets are super threatening with things like blaziken, heracross and medicham. Also metagross. Try to switch in on that without flaming dog and tell me how it goes. I know this doesn't have much to do with lax and blissey ban. I'm just saying that this mentality applies to all tiering ATM imo. I think the problems may be identified incorrectly because we are desensitized. I can follow up on this some more later.

[Vaeldras]

On phone so sorry for lack of formatting, but I just want to say that I feel like some players are a bit blinded by habituation in my opinion. Some things are super centralizing but we are jaded because we are used to having the checks. IMO basically being forced to run Arcanine is bad. Reversal sets are super threatening with things like blaziken, heracross and medicham. Also metagross. Try to switch in on that without flaming dog and tell me how it goes. I know this doesn't have much to do with lax and blissey ban. I'm just saying that this mentality applies to all tiering ATM imo. I think the problems may be identified incorrectly because we are desensitized. I can follow up on this some more later.

 

Except arcanine isn't really there to stop reversal users, it's really that good at walling stuff with morning sun.

Also, i haven't seen a pokemon with reversal in ages.

 

Edit: Also metagross is stopped cold by more than 1 poke: dusclops, charizard, swampert, slowbro etc

Edited July 6, 2015 by Vaeldras