[Test Banned to Ubers] Gengar

[DoubleJ]

Hey props to the community for the turnout in the poll. So far we've doubled the laxbliss vote.

[Rendiz]

It seems like stagnant is the new buzz word and people are using it just to try and sound smart even thought it is mostly being used incorrectly. Imo Gengar really isn't making the meta stagnant at all. Since the Bliss/Lax ban the majority of the meta changes has been revolving around pokes trying to stop Gengar and then Gengar changing its set to counter them. Just because the meta is changing around Gengar doesn't mean that the meta isn't changing. The meta could arguably change less if Gengar was not around (but now isn't the time for theorymon). But if the majority of the changes in the meta and strategic team building are because of Gengar I really cannot see how it is making anything stagnant.

 

And yes you can argue that its usage is very high therefor it is stagnant as it is seen on the majority of teams but I don't see that as the case. I feel like most people look as Gengar as a single entity rather than looking at it's sets almost as a completely different pokemon in their own rights (ex Physical / Special Kingdra). Using that viewpoint you could compare it to other similarly high usage pokemon with less viable sets and they would be a fair better cause of stagnancy for the meta rather than the pokemon that is pioneering change on a weekly basis.

 

TLDR: Change is change regardless of whether its pokemon or sets therefor Gengar isn't stagnating the meta.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Rendiz

[BurntZebra]

Hey props to the community for the turnout in the poll. So far we've doubled the laxbliss vote.

well to be fair, the lax bliss vote had a requirement of playing and linking 2 OU brackets that you've played in. Looking at the people who voted in this one, probably only 40 or so would have had the requirements to vote in the other one. Lots of people who don't really comp that much still voted in this since anyone can vote

[Vaeldras]

check this out - with 28 pokemon, there are 376,740 unique teams of 6 you can build. source: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/combinations-permutations.aspx

 

I know that not every random combo of 6 pokes from that 28 is going to be a good team, but still. Food for thought when discussing our "small pool of OUs"

 

28 is still a miserable amount, and i'd really like to see any of you using, let's say, lapras in an official.

For example, regular second gen had 24 ou pokes against our 25 (not to mention they also had 24 pokemon in borderline).

Banning gengar would make this even worse since some people like to rely on gimmicks to check it.

[BurntZebra]

28 is still a miserable amount, and i'd really like to see any of you using, let's say, lapras in an official.

For example, regular second gen had 24 ou pokes against our 25 (not to mention they also had 24 pokemon in borderline).

Banning gengar would make this even worse since some people like to rely on gimmicks to check it.

I feel like you're not seeing this. Tyranitar was banned even though hitmontop, a GIMMICK, was a hard counter to it. Also you're focusing too much on the number of pokemon in the OU tier. It honestly doesn't matter. ADV OU had 27 pokemon, 8 of which are legendaries or milotic or tyranitar, and it was a fine meta. No one was like "If only there were more OU pokemon" since there's nothing stopping you from running NUs or UUs. 

[DoubleJ]

Not entirely sure why players have likened to calling counters gimmicks if they aren't regularly seen in play. That's just seems to be an attempt at exaggerating an argument, something I'm fairly familiar with. Nevertheless, Hitmontop is a fairly effective pokemon in ubers with Intimidate, good defensive bulk, and priority. 

 

The thing I want to hear is from the OU Council itself. What pros and cons are there from banning Gengar?

[DrCraig]

Not entirely sure why players have likened to calling counters gimmicks if they aren't regularly seen in play. That's just seems to be an attempt at exaggerating an argument, something I'm fairly familiar with. Nevertheless, Hitmontop is a fairly effective pokemon in ubers with Intimidate, good defensive bulk, and priority. 

 

The thing I want to hear is from the OU Council itself. What pros and cons are there from banning Gengar?

Cons from banning Gengar aren't reasons to keep it, but reasons I personally would want to keep it. Gengar right now, reasons to ban in the first place aside, is holding the tier together in my opinion. Gengar is keeping all play style in check right now which I think is the most valuable and without Gengar, stall will probably become a problem. Pokemon like Forretress will become more usable and pokemon like Arcanine will be strengthened. Dusclops will most likely step up as the best spin blocker and Dusclops will obviously stack on the stall. Gengar was great at providing defense and offense for teams with its typing and I think that is what will be missed the most. Gengar is keeping offense alive. Gengars versatility is allowing it to be a check for a lot of the tier and allowing it to dampen a lot of threats which might become out of hand if it wasn't present. Gengar is too good in its own right, but keeping the rest of the tier level at the time. I personally don't want Gengar to leave OU, but it probably should.

[BurntZebra]

Not entirely sure why players have likened to calling counters gimmicks if they aren't regularly seen in play. That's just seems to be an attempt at exaggerating an argument, something I'm fairly familiar with. Nevertheless, Hitmontop is a fairly effective pokemon in ubers with Intimidate, good defensive bulk, and priority. 

 

The thing I want to hear is from the OU Council itself. What pros and cons are there from banning Gengar?

Because the sole existence of hitmontop is to counter tyranitar. Tyranitar is the only reason someone would run hitmontop. Hitmontop does not exist in the uber meta if tyranitar did not exist. Rest Sleep talk Steelix does not have a place in the OU meta besides being a mediocre counter to gengar. It is just outclassed by other pokemon like skarmory, forretress, and metagross. If gengar was not in OU, steelix would never be seen. If steelix isn't the gimmick counter you were referring to, then replace the word steelix with your gimmick counter.

 

Pros:

Players don't have to carry 3 counters to gengar on every team

Healthier meta (most likely)

Players can run pokemon like forretress without getting shut down completely (there are other pokemon that are just not viable by existence of gengar)

 

Cons:

Make about 50% of the player base unhappy

Possibly make something else OP and banworthy (not a reason to not move up gengar) (and unlikely)

 

I can't really speak for the other OU tier council members, although just as I am typing this craig just posted so you can see his opinion. 

[DoubleJ]

Cons from banning Gengar aren't reasons to keep it, but reasons I personally would want to keep it. Gengar right now, reasons to ban in the first place aside, is holding the tier together in my opinion. Gengar is keeping all play style in check right now which I think is the most valuable and without Gengar, stall will probably become a problem. Pokemon like Forretress will become more usable and pokemon like Arcanine will be strengthened. Dusclops will most likely step up as the best spin blocker and Dusclops will obviously stack on the stall. Gengar was great at providing defense and offense for teams with its typing and I think that is what will be missed the most. Gengar is keeping offense alive. Gengars versatility is allowing it to be a check for a lot of the tier and allowing it to dampen a lot of threats which might become out of hand if it wasn't present. Gengar is too good in its own right, but keeping the rest of the tier level at the time. I personally don't want Gengar to leave OU, but it probably should.

 

"But it probably should", I don't understand this part.

 

Looking at usage, the community's response in the poll, the lack of sweeping power, and the success of its checks, I just don't see any reasoning anymore to ban Gengar. 

[DrCraig]

"But it probably should", I don't understand this part.

Craig wants Gengar in OU.

Tier Council Craig doesn't.

[BurntZebra]

"But it probably should", I don't understand this part.

 

Looking at usage, the community's response in the poll, the lack of sweeping power, and the success of its checks, I just don't see any reasoning anymore to ban Gengar. 

What are these checks you're referring to? Maybe I missed where you posted them, but I feel like there is a very limited amount of checks to gengar.

[DoubleJ]

What are these checks you're referring to? Maybe I missed where you posted them, but I feel like there is a very limited amount of checks to gengar.

 

If you've been paying attention to the tier, Umbreon's Pursuit, SpDef Arcanine's Bulk, and Porygon2 have been doing a pretty darn good job at keep Gengar at bay. There are very few Sludge + WoW + Pain Split Gengar's running around to counter these checks. This may be a testament to the strength of Gengar's offensive set, but player's just aren't willing to sacrifice power to beat a couple checks. 

[Arimanius]

If you've been paying attention to the tier, Umbreon's Pursuit, SpDef Arcanine's Bulk, and Porygon2 have been doing a pretty darn good job at keep Gengar at bay. There are very few Sludge + WoW + Pain Split Gengar's running around to counter these checks. This may be a testament to the strength of Gengar's offensive set, but player's just aren't willing to sacrifice power to beat a couple checks. 

 

Steelix, magneton and I even tested quagsire sp def wall and it worked quite nice, the dmg it could do was low though

[BurntZebra]

If you've been paying attention to the tier, Umbreon's Pursuit, SpDef Arcanine's Bulk, and Porygon2 have been doing a pretty darn good job at keep Gengar at bay. There are very few Sludge + WoW + Pain Split Gengar's running around to counter these checks. This may be a testament to the strength of Gengar's offensive set, but player's just aren't willing to sacrifice power to beat a couple checks. 

Just as you argued in the fearow discussion thread, you said you were willing to run a whole moveslot for hidden power ground, just to beat ONE of fearow's many counters, so I don't know why you think it's that much of a sacrifice to run a bulky gengar set, which overall does better in the meta. The speed tier of bulky gengar vs sweeper gengar isn't very significant, only outspeeding threats that don't really matter or gengar cannot beat regardless, ie flygon which gengar cannot ohko unless hidden power ice and ohkos sweeper gengar in return (bulky gengar survives). 

[DoubleJ]

Just as you argued in the fearow discussion thread, you said you were willing to run a whole moveslot for hidden power ground, just to beat ONE of fearow's many counters, so I don't know why you think it's that much of a sacrifice to run a bulky gengar set, which overall does better in the meta. The speed tier of bulky gengar vs sweeper gengar isn't very significant, only outspeeding threats that don't really matter or gengar cannot beat regardless, ie flygon which gengar cannot ohko unless hidden power ice and ohkos sweeper gengar in return (bulky gengar survives). 

 

It's not my opinion, it's the team building of players in official tournaments that leave themselves vulnerable to Pursuit, etc., so that they can continue to outspeed base 100s and hit as hard as possible.  

[BurntZebra]

It's not my opinion, it's the team building of players in official tournaments that leave themselves vulnerable to Pursuit, etc., so that they can continue to outspeed base 100s and hit as hard as possible.  

>base 100s

>1 base 100 in OU not counting BL's which are rarely used in OU

[DoubleJ]

>base 100s

>1 base 100 in OU not counting BL's which are rarely used in OU

 

Why do you think it's going to be a healthier meta without Gengar? In my theorymoning, I'm seeing an imbalance in the tier with stall dominating at every turn. 

[BurntZebra]

Why do you think it's going to be a healthier meta without Gengar? In my theorymoning, I'm seeing an imbalance in the tier with stall dominating at every turn. 

But the checks you just mentioned are all on stall teams. So it seems stall deals with gengar the best. 

[DoubleJ]

But the checks you just mentioned are all on stall teams. So it seems stall deals with gengar the best. 

 

You didn't answer my question though, and even then, a pokemon like Umbreon being on a team doesn't exactly result in "oh shit that's a stall team". Umbreon on an offensive team acts to have one safe answer to Starmie and Gengar, which tend to rip through offensive sets.

 

Nevertheless, I'm still not seeing any justification for a ban. Our recent usage statistics have shown that there is currently no pokemon over 50% usage, that there are 21 pokemon above 10% usage, and that multiple playstyles are being represented. 

 

That sure as heck looks like a healthy(ish) meta imo. 

[codylramey]

Gengar doesnt restrict team building all that much imo.

[KingBowser]

I'm not sure what characteristic it plans to be ban on so lets look at the unhealthy aspect at first. The removal of gengar will completely make offense and balance inferior to stall. Balance loses it way to keep spikes on the field. Spikes now become so easy and the only way balance/offense can deal with spikes is running a slow Foretress/Cloyster or always having starmie. Doesnt really seem healthy for the tier to give stall and easy way to deal with spikes or lay spikes. Dont think spikes should ever be an easy thing to accomplish as it is such a punishing aspect of the game.

Stall is gonna be a nightmare to deal with. Without gengar, slowbro+arcanine are gonna be nearly impossible to break from the physical side, so just slap on a chansey/porygon2+spiker and you got your self the most cancerous team known to man. The spinblocking from gengar helped stop free switchins and the presence of Gar forced stall to give up coverage to deal with gar better. Chansey has to run Shadowball/psychic and porygon2 needs to run two moves to make gengar manageable, pokes that can easily wall, making them easier to exploit and break with Gar presence. Without Gar presence, Chansey+porygon2 are just gonna toxic stall the whole meta.

Now balance struggles so hard offense. Gengar was like only poke that can really turn the momentum away from offense. Only way to stop the CB superpower/Eq/d-edge spam without gar is using Slowbro/Weezing, so limiting to team building. Base moves with 100Base power shouldnt ever be spamable. Dont give me nonsense about gyarados being able to, that thing is the easiest thing to stop.

ehh pretty lazy for now, Ill continue to write more later. Edited August 15, 2015 by Noad
Removed unnecessary comments

[BurntZebra]

You didn't answer my question though, and even then, a pokemon like Umbreon being on a team doesn't exactly result in "oh shit that's a stall team". Umbreon on an offensive team acts to have one safe answer to Starmie and Gengar, which tend to rip through offensive sets.

 

Nevertheless, I'm still not seeing any justification for a ban. Our recent usage statistics have shown that there is currently no pokemon over 50% usage, that there are 21 pokemon above 10% usage, and that multiple playstyles are being represented. 

 

That sure as heck looks like a healthy(ish) meta imo. 

well call me old fashioned but when you run 2 walls to cover a decent amount of threats and then run 4 offensive pokemon, that's moreso balance and not offense, but anyways I agree that umbreon/arcanine can be used on more offensive teams, but that doesn't change they're bulky pokemon. Although the meta has improved since snorlax and blissey have moved on with their lives, I still think there's improvement to be made. Gengar existing in the OU meta forces people to run pokemon that either a) can take hits from gengar decently or b ) revenge kill gengar and doesn't really leave much room for pokemon that use normal/ground/fighting/bug moves, and also punishes the use of forretress, cloyster, and anything else that can't really hurt gengar much. 

 

I'll let bowser finish whatever he wants to say before I reply

[bl0nde]

With the impending easier access to HP (or so we've been led to believe) that's going to become a very relevant point to consider.

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[Robofiend]

I'm not sure what characteristic it plans to be ban on so lets look at the unhealthy aspect at first. The removal of gengar will completely make offense and balance inferior to stall. Balance loses it way to keep spikes on the field. Spikes now become so easy and the only way balance/offense can deal with spikes is running a slow Foretress/Cloyster or always having starmie. Doesnt really seem healthy for the tier to give stall and easy way to deal with spikes or lay spikes. Dont think spikes should ever be an easy thing to accomplish as it is such a punishing aspect of the game.

Stall is gonna be a nightmare to deal with. Without gengar, slowbro+arcanine are gonna be nearly impossible to break from the physical side, so just slap on a chansey/porygon2+spiker and you got your self the most cancerous team known to man. The spinblocking from gengar helped stop free switchins and the presence of Gar forced stall to give up coverage to deal with gar better. Chansey has to run Shadowball/psychic and porygon2 needs to run two moves to make gengar manageable, pokes that can easily wall, making them easier to exploit and break with Gar presence. Without Gar presence, Chansey+porygon2 are just gonna toxic stall the whole meta.

Now balance struggles so hard offense. Gengar was like only poke that can really turn the momentum away from offense. Only way to stop the CB superpower/Eq/d-edge spam without gar is using Slowbro/Weezing, so limiting to team building. Base moves with 100Base power shouldnt ever be spamable. Dont give me nonsense about gyarados being able to, that thing is the easiest thing to stop.

ehh pretty lazy for now, Ill continue to write more later.

 

You're forgetting Ursaring is pretty scary and breaks just about any wall in the tier after a Swords Dance, while also being able to abuse Toxic damage from stallers. Also, Skarmory would become massively more viable since it doesn't let the scariest pokemon in the tier into battle for free and stops normal spam fairly well.

 

Honestly, I'd say stall is more viable now since Gengar is a great spinblocker - banning it actually limits spikes as a strategy because you'd have to run Dusclops or something to spinblock and spinners like Forretress/Cloyster are no longer free swaps for Gengar. So sure, you could set spikes all day, but you're going to have a tough time keeping them up with no Gengar around and having to rely on Clops, who really isn't amazing. Seems more likely to me that for a week everyone's gonna be like "fuck yeah Cloyster" and then just have spike/spin wars.

 

Also, Heracross could give up Pursuit/Theif to cover Arc/Metagross with EQ and break the Chansey/Slowbro/Arc core pretty quickly (and with the option of CB Facade Weezing is no longer such a great idea).

 

Not sure how you could completely overlook Guts users as a counter to stall, but I guess it could become more viable without Gengar.

[DoubleJ]

You're forgetting Ursaring is pretty scary and breaks just about any wall in the tier after a Swords Dance, while also being able to abuse Toxic damage from stallers. Also, Skarmory would become massively more viable since it doesn't let the scariest pokemon in the tier into battle for free and stops normal spam fairly well.

 

Honestly, I'd say stall is more viable now since Gengar is a great spinblocker - banning it actually limits spikes as a strategy because you'd have to run Dusclops or something to spinblock and spinners like Forretress/Cloyster are no longer free swaps for Gengar. So sure, you could set spikes all day, but you're going to have a tough time keeping them up with no Gengar around and having to rely on Clops, who really isn't amazing. Seems more likely to me that for a week everyone's gonna be like "fuck yeah Cloyster" and then just have spike/spin wars.

 

Also, Heracross could give up Pursuit/Theif to cover Arc/Metagross with EQ and break the Chansey/Slowbro/Arc core pretty quickly (and with the option of CB Facade Weezing is no longer such a great idea).

 

Not sure how you could completely overlook Guts users as a counter to stall, but I guess it could become more viable without Gengar.

 

Robo, Dusclops is a better spinblocker than Gengar. It has more bulk and can take hits from Cloyster, Forretress, Claydol, and Starmie much better than Gengar ever could. With this in mind, Spikes can stay on the field much longer, especially considering Dusclops doesn't really fret from a Pursuit trap.