[Banned to BL2] Fearow

[LionKIng]

 

 

I don't agree with comparing Hitmonlee to Fearow. 

 

 

 

With the logic that we assume not every prediction is correct, we might as well move down Salamence because everybody using a Salamence will be by definition bad at predicting. This would also entail assuming not every pokemon is 6x31 IVs. WE MUST ASSUME THESE THINGS.

 

 

How can you compare fearow to salamence. And how is setting prediction to 100% good for this kind of discusion? I get the 6x31 iv part but the rest i do not.

[DoubleJ]

Lol at all of these threads being derailed by semantics, misunderstanding, and obsession over detail. Chill the ocd. We don't have to convince everyone that everything we say is the gospel.


Ok now that we're past that, we can't forget that fearow is a choice band user. This means it is "high risk high reward" by nature.

The basis behind our thread here though is that fearow has two powerful stabs that are forcing the tier to adapt.

Many view this as a problem considering the numerous risks associated with using pokemon that counter fearow. Herein is our problem. Fearow is so good it is forcing change. Is this change good or bad for the meta? That's what we need to discuss.

[LionKIng]

Lol at all of these threads being derailed by semantics, misunderstanding, and obsession over detail. Chill the ocd. We don't have to convince everyone that everything we say is the gospel.


Ok now that we're past that, we can't forget that fearow is a choice band user. This means it is "high risk high reward" by nature.

The basis behind our thread here though is that fearow has two powerful stabs that are forcing the tier to adapt.

Many view this as a problem considering the numerous risks associated with using pokemon that counter fearow. Herein is our problem. Fearow is so good it is forcing change. Is this change good or bad for the meta? That's what we need to discuss.

the changes are gonna occur with or without fearow, if fearow gets banned itll be something else tahts gonna take its place and we won't see aggron much if that happens. But yeah the derail is OP

[gbwead]

You can play Fearow if you're smart. You need to play it when you get the opportunity. For example if you're Ninetales vs a Victreebell, you know they are going to switch to a Sp Wall, then you can switch to Fearow for free here. They could bring in something like Grumpig or Mantine and there you go... Free switch. 

You are overestimating Fearow:

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grumpig: 183-216 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Fearow: 133-157 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

 

Lets say you do Return, Grumpig doesn't switch and hits you with Psychic. You are both at 50%. 

Grumpig can than switch out and heal up with rest at a later time. Since Grumpig got way more switch in options, it is very likely that he will be able to rest. Fearow, on the other hand will lose those hit points for good.

 

Grumpig can't check Fearow, but if he is already in play he isn't forced to switch out. If Fearow does anything beside Return or Double-Edge, he will be on the losing side of that 1v1.

[KaynineXL]

You are overestimating Fearow:

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grumpig: 183-216 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Fearow: 133-157 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

 

Lets say you do Return, Grumpig doesn't switch and hits you with Psychic. You are both at 50%. 

Grumpig can than switch out and heal up with rest at a later time. Since Grumpig got way more switch in options, it is very likely that he will be able to rest. Fearow, on the other hand will lose those hit points for good.

 

Grumpig can't check Fearow, but if he is already in play he isn't forced to switch out. If Fearow does anything beside Return or Double-Edge, he will be on the losing side of that 1v1.

I'm not overestimating it. 

 

Grumpig is a special wall as far as I'm concerned.. Not a physical wall so it's more like this..

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 169-201 (90.3 - 107.4%)

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 114-135 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Grumpig has no reliable recovery. ???

Edited August 15, 2015 by KaynineXL

[gbwead]

I'm not overestimating it. 

Grumpig is a special wall as far as I'm concerned.. Not a physical wall so it's more like this..

Grumpig has no reliable recovery. ???

Resttalk Grumpig is quite common.

I was just putting myself in the scenario of switching on Ninetales; Grumpig would be able to do that with or without ev investment in spdef.

It is the same thing with Mantine that has crazy base special defense and can invest in defense instead.

[KaynineXL]

Resttalk Grumpig is quite common.

I was just putting myself in the scenario of switching on Ninetales; Grumpig would be able to do that with or without ev investment in spdef.

It is the same thing with Mantine that has crazy base special defense and can invest in defense instead.

Lol... You're just putting yourself in the best situation possible... Also Rest talk isn't reliable recovery imo.

Let's move off this subject since it's derailing.

 

We've stated our points, I stand by my point and this is going no where since we both are saying the same shit over and over.

Edited August 15, 2015 by KaynineXL

[DoubleJ]

Ok, I had the chance to pick through everything now that I'm back at my PC. KaynineXL had some very reasonable points and I'm glad we had some deep discussion. Fearow is God tier, we all know this, but now we just have to see how the tier handles it. Whether that is with Aggron every time or if the Relicanths, Solrocks, Mahwiles, and Golems can make a push to stop the bird despite the amount of damage each take from CB STAB Double-Edge. 

[gbwead]

With the upcoming NU tournament (https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/55820-friday-night-nu-21st-august/#entry1114537), has Fearow caused teambuilding problems for you guys? Do you consider him Uber or simply unhealthy or an interresting addition to the tier?

 

Is Sudowoodo a good counter/check to Fearow? Unlike some of the previous checks mentionned (Relicanth, Kabutops, Golem, Aggron, ...), Sudowoodo doesn't have a x4 weakness. Is Hidden Power Fearow still a thing?

Edited August 21, 2015 by lamerb

[KaynineXL]

With the upcoming NU tournament (https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/55820-friday-night-nu-21st-august/#entry1114537), has Fearow caused teambuilding problems for you guys? Do you consider him Uber or simply unhealthy or an interresting addition to the tier?

 

Is Sudowoodo a good counter/check to Fearow? Unlike some of the previous checks mentionned (Relicanth, Kabutops, Golem, Aggron, ...), Sudowoodo doesn't have a x4 weakness. Is Hidden Power Fearow still a thing?

Yes it has.

 

Sudowoodo is alright for Fearow but is outclassed Golem anyway. You didn't need HP to kill Golem since a couple Steel Wings and it can't switch in anymore.

[OrangeManiac]

Alright the whole question what we are talking about here: Offensive Uber Characteristics. Does Fearow sweep a significant portion of the metagame? Easily. We don't need to have 3 page arguments whether HP Ground is good or not to have on Aggron. What is relevant that most of Fearow's counters are there only for Fearow, at least I would argue this way. I think this is the main thing you should argue for one way or another in order to keep Fearow in the tier. Fearow's revenge killers are usually easy to counter or even hard counter: To name a few Pokemon Sneasel is hard countered by Blastoise and Hitmontop even to the extent of making the Pokemon borderline viable while as Crobat and Electrode just give offensively not that much pressure that you would need to go too far to counter these Pokemon. I personally think the big question is how much of the relevant metagame does Fearow sweep?

[OrangeManiac]

The NU Council has decided to ban Fearow under the Offensive Uber Characteristics. The council finds that Fearow does indeed sweep a significant portion of the metagame, especially a significant portion of the relevant NU metagame. With really high speed stat of 100 for a NU, two powerful physical STABs of Return/Double-Edge and Drill Peck combined with 90 Attack Stat any Pokemon that is not a Rock or Steel-type will have it hard, if not straight impossible to switch in. Even though switching in Fearow is hard, softening opposing tanks over the course of the match and sacrificing a Pokemon most of the time is just enough for Fearow to clear the whole table.

Unlike most of the Offensive Uber Characteristics, Fearow does have some counters - hard counters even. The most notable hard counters are Aggron and Relicanth which are idiot proof switches in against Fearow unless Fearow has a respective Hidden Power against them. While it needs to be kept in mind a Hidden Power is a really viable move to have against these two counters, the council finds it the most significant fact that these two Pokemon are not found good itself as Pokemon. Before the move downs from UU tier, these Pokemon literally were not used even once. Even though there could be many reasons behind of neither of those Pokemon having no usage prior to move downs, the council just considers the community being right about the viability of these Pokemon for not using them. In addition Pokemon like Blastoise coming in the tier just makes these Pokemon even less viable in the current NU metagame. Even though more used Pokemon like Armaldo, Cradily and Golem could be good Pokemon against Fearow unless getting predicted with Steel Wing (or Hidden Power Grass for Golem in addition), the council feels like this is too much pressure in order to keep one Pokemon in checks.

 

Fearow's negative effect on metagame continues that it pretty much forces you to run always one, preferably two counters against it. This centralizes metagame way too much. Not only does it limit your teambuilding by pretty much two Pokemon by default, the other teambuilding also gets massively affected by it - you're starting to run counters to Fearow's counters. This kind of a metagame is by no means good at all, and it's all because of Fearow's offensive power. Fearow is the most dangerous combined with Diglett. When Diglett removes the needed Rock or Steel type counter and after that Fearow's sweeping will most of the time be ridiculously effortless. Even though you could argue Diglett could possibly fall under Support Characteristics, the council still feels Fearow's destructive power will still remain.

Even though revenge killing isn't that significant factor when considering tiering, it is really notable that the faster Pokemon than Fearow generally are really easy to counter almost in the way of having those Pokemon unviable. Barring Electabuzz, the most strongest Pokemon of the fast metagame, Sneasel, is really easy to hard counter with Blastoise and Hitmontop. Meanwhile Pokemon like Crobat, Electrode and Rapidash aren't considered notable threats by the NU tier council - at least not in the way of being scary enough of punishing a Fearow user. The pre move down meta gives a clear picture that the community doesn't find Electrode and Rapidash as too viable Pokemon in the NU metagame and not much has probably changed.

Due to these reasons the NU council has decided to ban Fearow to BL2 under the Offensive Uber Characteristics.