[NU Discussion] Ampharos - Moved to BL2

[BurntZebra]

How does Ampharos counter toise? Like.. Toise eq does..

4 Atk Blastoise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I would not like to walk into that. Sure, it's not the most popular set... But I'v used it. It wasn't too bad.

Blastoise can't always afford to earthquake, considering it loses to sandslash/armaldo if it doesn't surf as soon as it comes in. Also blastoise imo has the most 4mss of any NU pokemon, just because it can do a bunch of different stuff, albeit pretty average since no recovery. It can run surf, rapid spin, toxic, hp electric, hp grass, ice beam, earthquake, rest, roar, haze, counter, mirror coat, and water spout (offensive toise pls). So running earthquake on blastoise is a huge testament to how centralizing ampharos is in meta, since earthquake is pretty much exclusively for ampharos. 

[NikhilR]

Blastoise can't always afford to earthquake, considering it loses to sandslash/armaldo if it doesn't surf as soon as it comes in. Also blastoise imo has the most 4mss of any NU pokemon, just because it can do a bunch of different stuff, albeit pretty average since no recovery. It can run surf, rapid spin, toxic, hp electric, hp grass, ice beam, earthquake, rest, roar, haze, counter, mirror coat, and water spout (offensive toise pls). So running earthquake on blastoise is a huge testament to how centralizing ampharos is in meta, since earthquake is pretty much exclusively for ampharos. 

 

Not always true Zebra. Earthquake has the ability to hit things like

 

1) Ninetales which continuously start setting up with CM wher Surf won't do much damage

2) Prevent things like Mime / Grumpig from setting up and do some damage to things like Golduck too

3) hits Ampha, Flareon and Electabuzz harder than Surf

4) Hits Muk although it's seen rarely, but it has chances of setting up

5) Hits a Roselia setting up spikes where icebeam and waterfall won't do as much damage

 

For now EQ / Surf / Toxic / Rest is a good set.

Edited September 17, 2015 by NikhilR

[Robofiend]

Not always true Zebra. Earthquake has the ability to hit things like

 

1) Ninetales which continuously start setting up with CM wher Surf won't do much damage

2) Prevent things like Mime / Grumpig from setting up and do some damage to things like Golduck too

3) hits Ampha, Flareon and Electabuzz harder than Surf

4) Hits Muk although it's seen rarely, but it has chances of setting up

5) Hits a Roselia setting up spikes where icebeam and waterfall won't do as much damage

 

For now EQ / Surf / Toxic / Rest is a good set.

 

>more evidence Blastoise should get the boot

[NikhilR]

>more evidence Blastoise should get the boot

 

Blastoise doesn't have the luxury of most walls where it has quick recovery or immunity to toxic or ability to boost its offense etc. The only luxury so far in my eyes is not having a physical weakness. It's only method of recovering health is through rest. The situation could probably change but for now, I don't find it ban worthy.

 

Eitherways, this is the Ampha thread and Blastoise discussion doesn't fit here. 

[DoubleJ]

Blastoise doesn't have the luxury of most walls where it has quick recovery or immunity to toxic or ability to boost its offense etc. The only luxury so far in my eyes is not having a physical weakness. It's only method of recovering health is through rest. The situation could probably change but for now, I don't find it ban worthy.

 

Eitherways, this is the Ampha thread and Blastoise discussion doesn't fit here. 

 

Leaf Blade, Volt Tackle, and Thunderpunch are so baller

[Robofiend]

Blastoise doesn't have the luxury of most walls where it has quick recovery or immunity to toxic or ability to boost its offense etc. The only luxury so far in my eyes is not having a physical weakness. It's only method of recovering health is through rest. The situation could probably change but for now, I don't find it ban worthy.

 

Eitherways, this is the Ampha thread and Blastoise discussion doesn't fit here. 

 

Lets talk about Ampharos then:

 

It's got the highest SpA stat in the tier, versatile sets that let it fit onto virtually any team, and doesn't have commonly used checks. It carries Ice/Signal Beam for Grass/Ground types that would check it and Heal Bell to keep itself (and its team) healthy in the face of Toxic Stall. It's ability, Static, gives it massive viability for offense, as it can switch in on priority attacks and flying attacks with ease and paralyze the enemy.

 

Another important problem with Ampharos is the fact that while there are a select few pokemon that counter its sets depending on what HP it has, no one Pokemon performs well against Ampharos - and even the act of scouting it can cause your team serious harm. HP Ice takes care of Gligar, Roselia and the Nidos, Grass covers Whishcash, and Water covers Nidos, Gligar and Camerupt. More importantly, none of the pokemon that can check the "best" Ampharos sets are viable: the usage rates for Roselia, Gligar, Camperupt and the Nidos are so low that we can't really expect players to use them.

 

The problem is that in order to deal with this pokemon you need a strong defensive core that simultaneously guards against the best special attack in the tier (Modest Amph tbolt) while sporting resistances against Bug, Ice and Water and also not being afraid of Toxic. The only pokemon I can think of that meets these qualifications is Ampharos - and from what I've seen it's not uncommon for a player to scout the opponent's Ampharos with their own - a hallmark of overcentralization. It appears that the only way to have some degree of protection against Ampharos is to run a core of resistances (Camerupt + Rose or Nido + Whishcash) which no one does because these pokemon aren't viable. In fact, if you look at the Ampharos checks, you'll find that they all (minus Rose) open the door for the next scariest pokemon in the tier: Blastoise.

 

Essenitally, Ampharos limits the tier a lot because it largely prevents the invention of new sets: nothing stands up to it enough to actually become effective outside of already super-viable pokemon like Blastoise and Grumpig. I believe leaving it in the tier will limit the rise and fall of new strategies and sets - an indicator of a healthy metagame.

 

I'd also like to point out that lacking reliable recovery isn't really a hindrance in NU. Most of the tier's top pokemon (Blastoise, Ampharos, Grumpi, Xatu) lack reliable recovery but are no less the most powerful pokemon in the tier.

 

My question for you is: how do you justify the existence of a pokemon that is on 50% of teams, lacks solid, usable checks and consistently performs so well in battle? How is Ampharos good for the development of the tier and how does it promote diversity, competitiveness, skill and ingenuity? My answer is that it doesn't and that it should be banned. I have yet to hear an answer from the other side of this argument that explains why Ampharos is good, apart from checking other potentially broken, S-rank pokemon (Grumpig, Xatu, Blastoise, etc.).

[gbwead]

Leaf Blade, Volt Tackle, and Thunderpunch are so baller

and that bullet seed cradily XD

[NikhilR]

Lets talk about Ampharos then:

 

It's got the highest SpA stat in the tier, versatile sets that let it fit onto virtually any team, and doesn't have commonly used checks. It carries Ice/Signal Beam for Grass/Ground types that would check it and Heal Bell to keep itself (and its team) healthy in the face of Toxic Stall. It's ability, Static, gives it massive viability for offense, as it can switch in on priority attacks and flying attacks with ease and paralyze the enemy.

 

 

You're right about all that Robo. But lets look at things in the first case, Ampharos has the luxury of carrying only ONE useful hidden power. Ice / Water / Grass are your main useful ones. If you run Ice, pokemon like Camerupt and Whiscash will have a field day and always switch in and abuse the free opportunities you throw at their way. Let's not forget how threatening Whiscash can be after one DD. Camerupt has dual stabs that can do a lot of damage. Bellossom can switch in on a tbolt and leech seed, same for Roselia. If it carries HP Water, Roselia can always switch in and set up spikes and so can whiscash. HP Grass means gg Whiscash but then more checks are introduces like Roselia, Nidoqueen, Camerupt again. So carrying the wrong hidden power pokemon can nearly change the whole scenario and Amphy will always become switch in bait for something which could potentially change the match. Let's not forget Cradily being there but that's banworthy, anyways I'll still put it around. Even though pokes like Roselia and Whiscash aren't used much, I don't think it's because they aren't good but because of how not many people have it. Ampharos is much common because of how heavily it was bred due to being monster/field and not tiering related, but you won't believe the no. of OT dededoge sheep I've seen. My point is that, these checks do exist. 

 

Now, about priority attacks and flying attacks. That's a slightly weak argument because the only priority that is common in NU right now, is Mach Punch from Hitmontop and Quick Attack from Scyther. Ampharos can't afford to stay in vs Hitmontop because EQ. Scyther is the only flying physical type that Ampharos can fairly easily switch in on and threaten out. Other than that, Ampharos can't exactly come in vs any other physical attacker. 

 

 

Another important problem with Ampharos is the fact that while there are a select few pokemon that counter its sets depending on what HP it has, no one Pokemon performs well against Ampharos - and even the act of scouting it can cause your team serious harm. HP Ice takes care of Gligar, Roselia and the Nidos, Grass covers Whishcash, and Water covers Nidos, Gligar and Camerupt. More importantly, none of the pokemon that can check the "best" Ampharos sets are viable: the usage rates for Roselia, Gligar, Camperupt and the Nidos are so low that we can't really expect players to use them.

 

 

I think you're overestimating the damage Ampharos' hp does on Roselia.

 

0+ SpA Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Roselia: 56-66 (35.6 - 42%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Roselia can either leech seed or synthesis the health back up. Unfortunately, I don't know what nature people usually run on Ampharos. If they're going full bulk, then the damage done to Roselia becomes even lesser. 

 

0+ SpA Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

If players aren't using the checks, that doesn't mean Ampha is OP. I've run a Camerupt - Whiscash core and gotten to semis of NU finals, Gary ran a Nidoqueen to check Ampha and got to finals, Zebra runs Roselia in his wall team and it does a good job of it. Frags runs Ampha to counter Ampha :P

 

 

 

The problem is that in order to deal with this pokemon you need a strong defensive core that simultaneously guards against the best special attack in the tier (Modest Amph tbolt) while sporting resistances against Bug, Ice and Water and also not being afraid of Toxic. The only pokemon I can think of that meets these qualifications is Ampharos - and from what I've seen it's not uncommon for a player to scout the opponent's Ampharos with their own - a hallmark of overcentralization. It appears that the only way to have some degree of protection against Ampharos is to run a core of resistances (Camerupt + Rose or Nido + Whishcash) which no one does because these pokemon aren't viable. In fact, if you look at the Ampharos checks, you'll find that they all (minus Rose) open the door for the next scariest pokemon in the tier: Blastoise.

 

I think it's okay to have a good defensive core of 1-2 for Ampha. These pokemon have usefulnesses way more than what you're making it out to be. Are you saying Toxic here because you think Ampha might run toxic? Because it can't run tbolt / hidden power / signal / heal bell too, it has to give up on something. What you're suggesting is that Ampharos is strong because the support it has, not because it's being Ampharos. And every time Blastoise switches in on an EQ from Camerupt or toxic from something, it keeps taking damage and at one point has to rest. The reasoning you're coming up with somewhat reminds me of an issue that existed before the choiceband meta, where Blastoise-Vile core was so broken that it was considered ban worthy just because both of them complement each other. 

 

Essenitally, Ampharos limits the tier a lot because it largely prevents the invention of new sets: nothing stands up to it enough to actually become effective outside of already super-viable pokemon like Blastoise and Grumpig. I believe leaving it in the tier will limit the rise and fall of new strategies and sets - an indicator of a healthy metagame.

 

I'd also like to point out that lacking reliable recovery isn't really a hindrance in NU. Most of the tier's top pokemon (Blastoise, Ampharos, Grumpi, Xatu) lack reliable recovery but are no less the most powerful pokemon in the tier.

 

We haven't seen it for sure yet that Ampharos limits new sets or strategies. One thing you have to understand is that with us, it's gonna take a long, long time for the invention of something new to come through. 

 

There's a difference between having instant recovery, lacking instant recovery and having no recovery at all. Blastoise lacks instant recovery and makes it up with Rest. With Ampharos, it's only viable means of recovery is through leftovers, you run rest on it, you give up something else important for it. The reason they're still used, is because of their huge bulk. 

 

My question for you is: how do you justify the existence of a pokemon that is on 50% of teams, lacks solid, usable checks and consistently performs so well in battle? How is Ampharos good for the development of the tier and how does it promote diversity, competitiveness, skill and ingenuity? My answer is that it doesn't and that it should be banned. I have yet to hear an answer from the other side of this argument that explains why Ampharos is good, apart from checking other potentially broken, S-rank pokemon (Grumpig, Xatu, Blastoise, etc.).

 

I think Ampharos is a great pokemon because of its cleric ability, massive bulk and check to other pokemon as mentioned previously. Robo, if we evaluated every single pokemon on the basis of development of the tier and how it promotes diversity, competitiveness, skill and ingenuity, then we'd be banning every single thing because in every tier, there will always and always be something too good to not use. 

 

There's a point at which you can't use the keeping broken things to check other broken things rule. Let me give you an example:

 

1) Slowbro is too fucking good in OU. Without toxic support or having Heracross or Jolteon/Mag, this thing is capable of sweeping. It can switch in on half of the tier and start setting up. What else is Slowbro good at? Checking Arcanine, Flygon, Metagross, Aerodactyl,some normal spammers etc. If Slowbro were to go, some of these would be considered OP. 

 

2) Chansey is too good to not use. Wish+Seismic with hardly any ghosts around is perfect for it. It beats every single spaker in the entire game but without spakers would be extremely powerful. Things like Jolteon / Magneton / Starmie could take out teams easily. Umbreon isn't viable, P2 is quite nice but it can't touch a pokemon like slowbro without toxic and if it carries toxic, it gets screwed by magneton then cuz bolt beam. 

 

I'm not talking about usage wise, but do any of the above pokemon promote development, diversity, competitiveness, skill and ingenuity too? Probably not but that again leads to ban chain of how if you ban something, then something else becomes stronger.

 

This is why I feel Ampharos is healthy, it keeps things like Xatu, Golduck, Scyther at bay because if it goes, then so would the rest of them and at what point do we then say to stop with the bans?

Edited September 17, 2015 by NikhilR

[Robofiend]

I think Ampharos is a great pokemon because of its cleric ability, massive bulk and check to other pokemon as mentioned previously. Robo, if we evaluated every single pokemon on the basis of development of the tier and how it promotes diversity, competitiveness, skill and ingenuity, then we'd be banning every single thing because in every tier, there will always and always be something too good to not use. 

 

Not to cherry pick you super hard here, but the bold part is just plain untrue. In a balanced metagame there is nothing that you look at and go "holy shit, I need that or else I'm going to lose" or "wow, when I don't use X my team feels really underpowered". Ideally, a balanced metagame should have so many good options that you almost feel overwhelmed in trying to pick a team: it should be hard to cover all the bases and no one pokemon should be more important to that goal than another. I'm not sure where you got this wacky idea about tiering from, but it's patently against everything else that mainstream pokemon tiering holds dear.

 

The very opposite of what you said is true: in a balanced, competitive metagame, there is never anything that is too good not to use. Just because our other tiers lack this characteristic doesn't mean that's the way it should be or that this is a state of nature - it just shows that you don't know what a balanced metagame is or haven't played competitive pokemon outside of MMO.

 

For the record: some of your other points are good, but you're still suggesting I run not-that-viable stuff to deal with Ampharos and I'm not sure why I would do that. 

Edited September 17, 2015 by Robofiend

[NikhilR]

Not to cherry pick you super hard here, but the bold part is just plain untrue. In a balanced metagame there is nothing that you look at and go "holy shit, I need that or else I'm going to lose" or "wow, when I don't use X my team feels really underpowered". Ideally, a balanced metagame should have so many good options that you almost feel overwhelmed in trying to pick a team: it should be hard to cover all the bases and no one pokemon should be more important to that goal than another. I'm not sure where you got this wacky idea about tiering from, but it's patently against everything else that mainstream pokemon tiering holds dear.

 

The very opposite of what you said is true: in a balanced, competitive metagame, there is never anything that is too good not to use. Just because our other tiers lack this characteristic doesn't mean that's the way it should be or that this is a state of nature - it just shows that you don't know what a balanced metagame is or haven't played competitive pokemon outside of MMO.

 

Nah you're right and it's okay to cherry pick. Unfortunately my only competitive experience comes from playing in MMO, so from what I've played, there'll always be something strong that dominates the list. I just don't think we can have the exact definition of "balanced, competitive metagame" so I'm just trying to make the best out of this situation. Initially when a ban comes through, things might shake up a bit with usage being different and probably indicating healthiness, but give it time and you'll see things being used quite often and then you're forced to repeat that same old process.

 

Hypno is most likely coming to NU as well, so I think that should work as a sufficient check for Ampha, I believe. 

[Robofiend]

Nah you're right and it's okay to cherry pick. Unfortunately my only competitive experience comes from playing in MMO, so from what I've played, there'll always be something strong that dominates the list. I just don't think we can have the exact definition of "balanced, competitive metagame" so I'm just trying to make the best out of this situation. Initially when a ban comes through, things might shake up a bit with usage being different and probably indicating healthiness, but give it time and you'll see things being used quite often and then you're forced to repeat that same old process.

 

Hypno is most likely coming to NU as well, so I think that should work as a sufficient check for Ampha, I believe. 

 

K, fair enough. I would advise learning some other metas tho - it's interesting and it definitely shows you how different the game can be (personally, i prefer later gens to MMO, but oh well). I know "close enough" is tempting, but I feel like a lot of the time the reasoning behind that is "Yeah, Amphy might be broken but the meta's not that bad and I already spent all this time getting Ampharos and building teams against it etc." not actually wanting the best game possible.

 

As for: "when to stop with the bans?" - this is a different scenario than OU was: we have already seen a good, relatively balanced version of NU pre-last usage shift. At the very least, we'd know that banning Blastoise, Xatu, Haunter, Aggron, etc. would give us a pretty good tier so the bans wouldn't "need" to expand beyond that. But if you're going to give me the "there's always something that's too good not to use" logic and say that I'm suggesting an endless ban chain then I can't really argue against that - because neither of those are legitimate arguments against a ban.

 

I originally requested you to show me ways Ampharos is forcing ingenuity, diversity and competitiveness. While you might have had success running two Amph checks on a team, it appears other players either aren't as good as you or that those pokemon aren't as viable as they were during that tournament, because very few people run Camerupt/Whishcash. Furhtermore, just because I can run those two pokemon - does that mean I should have to if I want to be successful against Ampharos, who is on 50% of teams.

 

Zebra has made this point before, but if Fearow was banned for having few viable counters and being centralizing, it's hard to see why Ampharos isn't at least being test banned. That said, I'd still prefer to see Blastoise go first.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Robofiend

[KaynineXL]

Blastoise can't always afford to earthquake, considering it loses to sandslash/armaldo if it doesn't surf as soon as it comes in. Also blastoise imo has the most 4mss of any NU pokemon, just because it can do a bunch of different stuff, albeit pretty average since no recovery. It can run surf, rapid spin, toxic, hp electric, hp grass, ice beam, earthquake, rest, roar, haze, counter, mirror coat, and water spout (offensive toise pls). So running earthquake on blastoise is a huge testament to how centralizing ampharos is in meta, since earthquake is pretty much exclusively for ampharos. 

 

My favourite toise is mixed. The 2 best mixed sets that I'm aware of is... Waterfall/Ice beam or EQ/Surf. I switch up and use both because they both have their own purposes. No matter how you look at it, Ampharos is not a safe toise switch.

 

I do agree toise has so many sets that it's unpredictable, but that still doesn't mean you should be switching into toise blind of his set.

 

How does Toise lose to Armaldo? Like.. As an avid user of Armaldo, my first thought was, No it can't. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and did the calc's and I still can't find anyway Armaldo would beat Toise in a 1v1.

 

Against a bulky 252 HP Armaldo.(Toise is faster, bare in mind)

4 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 108-128 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 51-60 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

Against 252 speed CB Armaldo.(Armaldo is faster)

4 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 108-128 (72 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 75-88 (40.3 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

[BurntZebra]

My favourite toise is mixed. The 2 best mixed sets that I'm aware of is... Waterfall/Ice beam or EQ/Surf. I switch up and use both because they both have their own purposes. No matter how you look at it, Ampharos is not a safe toise switch.

 

I do agree toise has so many sets that it's unpredictable, but that still doesn't mean you should be switching into toise blind of his set.

 

How does Toise lose to Armaldo? Like.. As an avid user of Armaldo, my first thought was, No it can't. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and did the calc's and I still can't find anyway Armaldo would beat Toise in a 1v1.

 

Against a bulky 252 HP Armaldo.(Toise is faster, bare in mind)

4 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 108-128 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 51-60 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

Against 252 speed CB Armaldo.(Armaldo is faster)

4 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 108-128 (72 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 75-88 (40.3 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I mean it looks like armaldo beats blastoise to me, since blastoise is going to be switching in. If you're assuming a 1v1, then its only a check and not a counter. 

[KaynineXL]

I mean it looks like armaldo beats blastoise to me, since blastoise is going to be switching in. If you're assuming a 1v1, then its only a check and not a counter. 

You said Blastoise can't afford to eq because if they bring Armaldo or Sandslash it gets beat. Which I think is false for both of them. I'v not calc'd slash, but I doubt it wins.

 

Blastoise won't have any trouble switching on bulky Armaldo, although CB Armaldo would win provided it hits all 3 RS and it still would take a lot of damage back. Also CB Armaldo gets locked on rs, so you could switch to something that resists, so it's w/e.

 

Either way, this was about you saying Armaldo could come in on Toise eq and win.

Edited September 18, 2015 by KaynineXL

[BurntZebra]

You said Blastoise can't afford to eq because if they bring Armaldo or Sandslash it gets beat. Which I think is false for both of them. I'v not calc'd slash, but I doubt it wins.

 

Blastoise won't have any trouble switching on bulky Armaldo, although CB Armaldo would win provided it hits all 3 RS and it still would take a lot of damage back. Also CB Armaldo gets locked on rs, so you could switch to something that resists, so it's w/e.

 

Either way, this was about you saying Armaldo could come in on Toise eq and win.

Maybe you misinterpreted what I said. I meant if it was like full hp toise vs a +2 sandslash (blastoise comes in while sandslash sds), blastoise can't really afford to earthquake predicting the ampharos, since earthquaking the sandslash will result in blastoise losing to sandslash

[Gunthug]

You said Blastoise can't afford to eq because if they bring Armaldo or Sandslash it gets beat. Which I think is false for both of them. I'v not calc'd slash, but I doubt it wins.

Blastoise won't have any trouble switching on bulky Armaldo, although CB Armaldo would win provided it hits all 3 RS and it still would take a lot of damage back. Also CB Armaldo gets locked on rs, so you could switch to something that resists, so it's w/e.

Either way, this was about you saying Armaldo could come in on Toise eq and win.

Im on my phone so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he was saying stoise has to surf on armaldo/slash or it risks losing. Sure, you can predict the amph switch and eq, but that's a huge risk if they stay in and you lose your stoise without doing significant damage to armaldo/slash

The point I took from it was, amph will certainly have opportunities to come in on blastoise, which I believe was the argument at the time. Where this fits into a discussion about ampharos, I'm not sure haha

Edit: zebra beat me to it Edited September 18, 2015 by Gunthug

[KaynineXL]

Ahh, I see what you are saying. My bad.

 

Well, you're definitely going to use a water move which lets Ampharos in with little punishment. This is only 1 scenario that could happen though, there are many many more where you could just EQ to make Ampharos scared to come in.

[DoubleJ]

Ampharos to me isn't a defensive uber, nor is it uncompetitive under the support characteristic. It's just a pokemon that hits hard and can take a few hits well. It is severely limited offensively, but has variability in which Hidden Power it carries. It can spam Toxic and it can Agility up to try and sweep. That's about it.

 

From a different perspective, I feel Ampharos actually helps to stabilize the meta. It can absorb a +1 STAB from one of the powerful CM users in the tier and strike back with a SE Thunderbolt (Xatu and Golduck), effectively checking them and preventing their sweep by opening them up for being revenge killed by priority or a faster pokemon. Outside of Ampharos, there really isn't another pokemon that can handle the CM users outside of Mantine, but even then HP Electric can easily dispose of the flying Manta. So in a sense, Ampharos is fairly health for the tier, but then again, what does "being healthy or unhealthy" really even mean?

 

And if you're really having trouble with Ampharos, just carry a Diglett. It's actually not that bad in NU. 

[felix]

And if you're really having trouble with Ampharos, just carry a Diglett. It's actually not that bad in NU. 

I agree with all the stuff you said, but this last line make me think is Diglett really the only thing that can deal with Ampharos? if it is, it probably should go then.

 

What I mean is that you said almost all the post about balance and this last line contradicts all you said previously in the post.

 

fun fact, Pain Split Earthquake, Sassy, 76HP, 180Atk, 252 SpD Swalot can handle Ampharos. Nidos does a nice job as well (both has access to moonlight which is better than ampharos gets), Sandslash can scare it out (HP Ice/Grass will do tons of damage, so it is a one turn only thing), Special Defensive Earthquake Hitmontop handles it (it doesn't even need 252 SpD), Piloswine can eat Hidden Powers, Shedinja is a funny answer too and Flareon has some switches in against Ampharos.

 

To me looks like Ampharos has tons of answers and I kinda like the roles that Ampharos fits right now in the tier.

[DoubleJ]

I agree with all the stuff you said, but this last line make me think is Diglett really the only thing that can deal with Ampharos? if it is, it probably should go then.

 

What I mean is that you said almost all the post about balance and this last line contradicts all you said previously in the post.

 

fun fact, Pain Split Earthquake, Sassy, 76HP, 180Atk, 252 SpD Swalot can handle Ampharos. Nidos does a nice job as well (both has access to moonlight which is better than ampharos gets), Sandslash can scare it out (HP Ice/Grass will do tons of damage, so it is a one turn only thing), Special Defensive Earthquake Hitmontop handles it (it doesn't even need 252 SpD), Piloswine can eat Hidden Powers, Shedinja is a funny answer too and Flareon has some switches in against Ampharos.

 

To me looks like Ampharos has tons of answers and I kinda like the roles that Ampharos fits right now in the tier.

 

It wasn't meant as "the only option", it was meant as "the last option" for players that lack the skill to play around Ampharos. 

[Robofiend]

I agree with all the stuff you said, but this last line make me think is Diglett really the only thing that can deal with Ampharos? if it is, it probably should go then.

 

What I mean is that you said almost all the post about balance and this last line contradicts all you said previously in the post.

 

fun fact, Pain Split Earthquake, Sassy, 76HP, 180Atk, 252 SpD Swalot can handle Ampharos. Nidos does a nice job as well (both has access to moonlight which is better than ampharos gets), Sandslash can scare it out (HP Ice/Grass will do tons of damage, so it is a one turn only thing), Special Defensive Earthquake Hitmontop handles it (it doesn't even need 252 SpD), Piloswine can eat Hidden Powers, Shedinja is a funny answer too and Flareon has some switches in against Ampharos.

 

To me looks like Ampharos has tons of answers and I kinda like the roles that Ampharos fits right now in the tier.

 

You may not realize this but all of the Ampharos counters (bar Shedinja) that you mentioned are not viable/used in NU because they just aren't useful. I see Sandslash from time to time, but I just don't see it sweeping teams too often or even being that useful when you have to deal with Ampharos+Blastoise on a lot of teams, especially when Amphy almost always has a HP to hit Sandslash.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

You may not realize this but all of the Ampharos counters (bar Shedinja) that you mentioned are not viable/used in NU because they just aren't useful. I see Sandslash from time to time, but I just don't see it sweeping teams too often or even being that useful when you have to deal with Ampharos+Blastoise on a lot of teams, especially when Amphy almost always has a HP to hit Sandslash.

 

Sandslash can be used as a sacrificial wallbreaker, since Blastoise has trouble OHKO'ing a bulky Jolly Sandslash that can outspeed it. Switch in on Ampharos Thunderbolt, set-up a Swords Dance on the switch to Blastoise. Earthquake for over half damage but less than Torrent range, then kill on the next turn when you survive with very little HP. 

 

Wreck with something that benefits from removing Blastoise. 

[felix]

You may not realize this but all of the Ampharos counters (bar Shedinja) that you mentioned are not viable/used in NU because they just aren't useful. I see Sandslash from time to time, but I just don't see it sweeping teams too often or even being that useful when you have to deal with Ampharos+Blastoise on a lot of teams, especially when Amphy almost always has a HP to hit Sandslash.

I usually see lots of nidoqueens, some nidokings, tons of hitmontops, quite good amount of flareons. Do you even watch tournaments?

 

forgot to mention that specially defensive camerupts can deal with Ampharos too.

 

Ampharos looks like an issue if you are not building a team, just throwing S ranks pokes into a team and when they realize that a single poke stops all of them they just want to ban it.

[BurntZebra]

Feels good when ampharos is uu by usage atm

[Robofiend]

I usually see lots of nidoqueens, some nidokings, tons of hitmontops, quite good amount of flareons. Do you even watch tournaments?

 

forgot to mention that specially defensive camerupts can deal with Ampharos too.

 

Ampharos looks like an issue if you are not building a team, just throwing S ranks pokes into a team and when they realize that a single poke stops all of them they just want to ban it.

 

1. Piloswine also is a bad argument, just cuz i missed that =), but you're right that Flareon counters Amphy reasonably well.

2. Hitmontop is almost always +def from what I've seen, although I'll accept the possibility of people also using spdef because it can be good.

3. Do you usage stat bro? Nidoking/queen were combined 13% usage

4. Camerupt is also 7% usage, not to mention that it dies to HP water, which has already been pointed out here

5. Swalot 2% usage kek

Edited September 24, 2015 by Robofiend