[NU Discussion] Ampharos - Moved to BL2

[OrangeManiac]

 

Ampharos has quickly became a force in NU that anyone can recognize to be a top threat NU Mon. With just sheer base stats or 90/75/90 bulk and astonishing 115 Special Attack, in most cases you find Ampharos hitting its whatever opponent much harder than they hit him. STAB Thunderbolt is a really good overall move to spam around as long as there is no Grass or especially Ground-types. For these ones, Ampharos however has Signal Beam and Hidden Power Grass/Water (or Ice but objectively inferior if you ask me) to deal with incoming Ground-types and they will take a lot of damage from it. Ampharos' biggest drawback is its low speed of 55, which means plenty of Pokemon will do always some damage to Ampharos which makes Ampharos a hard Pokemon to sweep opponents. However, a bit gimmicky but arguably effective move Agility can change that in one turn. In addition, Thunder Wave is an excellent move to slow down any opposing sweepers - cripple them and get a now first hit with his amazing STAB (or prediction move).

However, what is notable about Ampharos is the fact that Ground-types could give it hard time. Even though by Hidden Power only bulky Nidoqueen has been calculated as a fully recognized counter, plenty of Ground-types can steal momentum from Ampharos user's wrong prediction by Thunderbolting. This may raise other questions, such as "How easy is it to switch in to Ground-types?" due to plenty of bulky water-types or "Is switching Ground-types even overall safe and a good option"? My personal experiences tell that Ampharos really has a tougher time to perform against a team of especially multiple Ground-types but this could be helped with other teambuilding and all of this makes it sound like it has a bit of a centralizing effect on the metagame. (Lesser extent than Fearow did but still.)

Even though one tournament is too early to make any kinds of bigger assumptions, Ampharos had a usage of 50% which indicates that this Mon just might be too good not to use (but let's remember usage itself isn't a reason for banworthiness!). This thread is to take place of people to share their experiences over the course of their NU experiences regarding playing NU.

Furthermore, it's really hard to actually tell where does Ampharos exactly rank in possible banworthiness. Even though Ampharos has massive damage output and moves like Agility and Thunder Wave giving it first hits can make Ampharos able to "sweep significant portions of the meta" or it just takes opposing hits too well while OHKOing them. The fact Ampharos can switch in to any move that is not a STAB Earthquake tells that this Pokemon could be like old Snorlax with Vaporeon Wish Support, it just lasts so long while taking the opposing team down. What's significant though is that against Ground-types it's hard to completely agree it can "sweep without effort", because its STAB is immune to them as well as Ampharos' main utility move, Thunder Wave.

This leads to another possible banworthiness and what I feel like is the most likely for Ampharos to be banned of if it's getting banned: Being unhealthy. If the meta directs to for having necessary Ground-types or especially two against Ampharos, it's hard to argue that Ampharos isn't unhealthy. However, if a one or two Ground-type team makes Ampharos feel like a dead weight in the battle then people might not bring Ampharos as a Pokemon you can "just slap in every team", which would argue it's not.

The NU council wishes to see inputs regarding to Ampharos which is clearly a Pokemon that is a significant threat to say the least in the NU environment. Is it Offensive Uber or unhealthy for the metagame? (Needs more proof that one tournament.) But 50% usage already tells this Pokemon ain't used for nothing.



Most common movesets for Ampharos: (blatantly stolen from my own NU guide. Should prolly have agility set as well)
 

 

[spoiler]

Standard Special Attacker

Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Sp. Atk (speed is an option)
Item: Leftovers

 

Thunderbolt
Hidden Power Water / Hidden Power Grass

Signal Beam
Thunder Wave/Toxic/Heal Bell/Light Screen/Reflect

- Probably Ampharos' main NU set. Thunderbolt is pretty self-explanatory, however the selection of the Hidden Power is much more problematic. Hidden Power Grass is mainly for Whiscash which at worst can DD set up on it but Hidden Power Water is better for beating Nidoking and Queen as well as Camerupt. Signal Beam is to deal with Bellossom, Tangela and Shiftry. This is where Ampharos kinda loses already it's special offensive moves so the last move is a selection of an utility move.

 

 

Supporter

Nature: Bold/Calm
EV Spread: 252 HP 252 Defense/252 HP 252 Spec def
Item: Leftovers

Thunderbolt
Heal Bell
Light Screen/Seismic toss
Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Water / Reflect / Thunder Wave

- The set that emphasizes of supporting the team for maximum longevity. A lot of physical defense can also surprise a Zangoose which may think it can sweep when it in fact cannot. Light Screen supports the special defensive side for both Amphy and whole team. Hidden Power Grass / Water / Ice is just too good not to use in my opinion, because getting countered by Ground-types sucks hard. Calm Ampharos can tank strong special attacks ,such as haunters sludge bomb with ease and hit back.

[/spoiler]

So yeah, discuss.

[Kizhaz]

I'd say the 50% usage morso comes from what ampharos can do than it being ab op threat. Ampharos can so many things well; wall, cleric, status, specially offensive, mixed offensive, even agility (wouldnt eveb call it a gimick imo). Becaise of its vast amount of sets at its disposal it can fit on almost every team with great synergy, not to mention besides it our other electric types are pika/raichu then what? Minun?

I think it is fine in the tier, plenty of other pokemon in the tier to check and counter each set. If ampharos had recovery it could qualify as an uber support, but chesto rest/rest talk just wont cut it

[KaynineXL]

I agree with Kiz. I don't think its OP, but it's definitely good. I think the main uses for its solid usage stats is some of the most popular special walls Grumpig, Mantine, Ampharos, maybe Flareon? can't deal with everything. Grumpig struggles with sball haunter, mantine can't take electric attack, Flareon cannot take stab water attacks and on top of that Grumpig, Mantine & Ampharos have no reliable recovery.

 

I feel Ampharos is that backbone of the team that help those sp walls that struggle to take on everything while keeping a good offensive threat.

Edited September 8, 2015 by KaynineXL

[BurntZebra]

The problem with the philosophy of being able to counter so many pokemon, is that everyone will run ampharos, because there's no reason not to if you can counter any calm minder, bulky waters not named whiscash, and anything that doesn't have earthquake basically. Look at snorlax and blissey in OU, there was no reason to run any special wall besides them because all of them were vastly inferior, and pretty much every team had either snorlax or blissey. This led to special attackers not being viable just by the existence of one or two pokemon in the tier. Ampharos is in a similar situation, as it counters pokemon like xatu, golduck, electabuzz, misdreavus, and girafarig, just making them not worth running typically, if there's a 50% to run into an ampharos (I suspect that the usage of ampharos was higher than 50% in the tournament today). 

 

Also the logic of "we better keep ampharos because it keeps other OP things in check" is not a valid reason to keep ampharos, as if something else is overpowered after a ban, then that can be dealt with later. And in reality, I don't think that much would break without ampharos to destroy their existence. Sure you might not be able to counter all the special attackers in the tier with one pokemon, but does that actually sound healthy to anyone? 

 

Obviously some people are going to be like "you can't tell if a pokemon is unhealthy for the tier in only a few tournaments" which is true to some extent, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the usage stats and look at the meta, and see that there is clearly a problem. 

[Kizhaz]

The problem with the philosophy of being able to counter so many pokemon, is that everyone will run ampharos, because there's no reason not to if you can counter any calm minder, bulky waters not named whiscash, and anything that doesn't have earthquake basically. Look at snorlax and blissey in OU, there was no reason to run any special wall besides them because all of them were vastly inferior, and pretty much every team had either snorlax or blissey. This led to special attackers not being viable just by the existence of one or two pokemon in the tier. Ampharos is in a similar situation, as it counters pokemon like xatu, golduck, electabuzz, misdreavus, and girafarig, just making them not worth running typically, if there's a 50% to run into an ampharos (I suspect that the usage of ampharos was higher than 50% in the tournament today). 
 
Also the logic of "we better keep ampharos because it keeps other OP things in check" is not a valid reason to keep ampharos, as if something else is overpowered after a ban, then that can be dealt with later. And in reality, I don't think that much would break without ampharos to destroy their existence. Sure you might not be able to counter all the special attackers in the tier with one pokemon, but does that actually sound healthy to anyone? 
 
Obviously some people are going to be like "you can't tell if a pokemon is unhealthy for the tier in only a few tournaments" which is true to some extent, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the usage stats and look at the meta, and see that there is clearly a problem.

I agree to an extent with this. The biggest difference between snorlax and blissey in OU and Amphy in NU would be that the normal types completely stopped all forms of sp.atks. They couldnt be touched by any sp.atk in the tier. Ampharos however can still be hurt by sp.atk and does not render sp.atk pokemon useless.

Also what is ampharos keeping in check? Im lost in where your 2nd paragraph is comimg from

[xilias]

All you said is right zebra. But imo ampharos didn't reach the same degree of unhealthiness as lax/ blissey in OU,the sp.att sweepers still have a role in NU(we'll see if that changes in next tournaments)ampharos is definitely not a perfect sp.def wall because of the lack of healing moves.

[gbwead]

the sp.att sweepers still have a role in NU(we'll see if that changes in next tournaments)ampharos is definitely not a perfect sp.def wall because of the lack of healing moves.

Beside Xatu, all calm minders can destroy Ampharos.

OU calm minders were harmless against Bliss/Lax.

[DoubleJ]

Beside Xatu, all calm minders can destroy Ampharos.
OU calm minders were harmless against Bliss/Lax.

Besides Xatu and Golduck you mean.

The others are crippled by paralysis and rendered poop, or they take some damage (pray no tbolt para) until they can get behind an unbreakable sub. Although using cm + sub means their moveset is severely limited. For instance grumpig that really likes signal beam support + a Hidden power.

[BurntZebra]

I agree to an extent with this. The biggest difference between snorlax and blissey in OU and Amphy in NU would be that the normal types completely stopped all forms of sp.atks. They couldnt be touched by any sp.atk in the tier. Ampharos however can still be hurt by sp.atk and does not render sp.atk pokemon useless.

Also what is ampharos keeping in check? Im lost in where your 2nd paragraph is comimg from

Misdreavus, golduck, xatu, electabuzz, girafarig, walrein, blastoise, scyther to an extent, haunter, lapras, list goes on. I'm not saying all/any of those are banworthy if ampharos were to leave the tier, but I assume people would definitely bitch about some of them if there was no ampharos to beat them so easily. (The calm minders don't have that great of special defense so usually tbolt vs +1 does a ton of damage, way more than a sub, so at risk of a toxic. Girafarig can potentially beat it but dies to one crit tbolt lol)

[gbwead]

Besides Xatu and Golduck you mean.

I forgot about Golduck XD

 

 

The others are crippled by paralysis and rendered poop, or they take some damage (pray no tbolt para) until they can get behind an unbreakable sub. Although using cm + sub means their moveset is severely limited. For instance grumpig that really likes signal beam support + a Hidden power.

Misdreavus and Ninetales might play sub or pain split, but I think most calm minders will prefer Rest to avoid para, toxic and all that stuff.

 

*Its debatable whether sub is better than rest. Sub is good against agressive teams (no momentum lost). Rest is better against defense teams (they will have a harder time killing you).

 

Girafarig Early Bird is obviously going for Rest.

Edited September 9, 2015 by lamerb

[felix]

all calm minders can destroy Ampharos.

my subpunch ampharos doesn't care about your calm minders, got some ninetales trying to setup on my amphy and getting 2ohko'd by focus punch.

 

I feel like ppl doesn't like to run sub+punch amphy choosing mostly the special only variant, but I do think subpunch is a viable option, it did a nice job so far.

Edited September 9, 2015 by felix

[gbwead]

I feel like ppl doesn't like to run sub+punch amphy choosing mostly by the special only, but I do think subpunch is a viable option, it did a nice job so far.

I play Ampharos sub+punch in UU sometimes and it can be quite deadly XD

 

my subpunch ampharos doesn't care about your calm minders, got some ninetales trying to setup on my amphy and getting 2ohko'd by focus punch.

That is not really what I was talking about. Zebra said (correct me if I misunderstood you Zebra) that special attackers are unviable because Ampharos checks them.

 

Can Ampharos switch in on a +1 spatk +1 spdef Ninetales? No, he will lose that battle.

If Ampharos is already in play, can he take down Ninetales with Focus Punch? Yes, but that is not what I would call "checking special attackers".

 

What made Snorlax and Bliss so good is that they were able to switch in.

[felix]

That is not really what I was talking about. Zebra said (correct me if I misunderstood you Zebra) that special attackers are unviable because Ampharos checks them.

 

Can Ampharos switch in on a +1 spatk +1 spdef Ninetales? No, he will lose that battle.

If Ampharos is already in play, can he take down Ninetales with Focus Punch? Yes, but that is not what I would call "checking special attackers".

 

What made Snorlax and Bliss so good is that they were able to switch in.

my bad, I though you were talking about the ability of any cm special attacker switch in against ampharos, setup and win.

 

if we are talking about special defensive ampharos, it will be a stalemate for a while, untill ninetales gets around +3, which will let it a bit of damage, allowing a revenge kill probably?

 

I don't think ampharos is unhealthy, it neither stops all special attackers to do something, i think its versality is what allows unique plays with this poke in a team.

[Osuki]

If Ampharos (and Cradily) get a ban, is there any reliable/viable answer to Rain dance / Surf / Ice beam / Hidden power  electric Gorebys ? I'd like to know if anyone found something to deal with this little monster. 

 

 Edit :Oh thunderbolt Lapras maybe ? I don't find much else 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Osuki

[Robofiend]

There's always Quake Blastoise, who's pretty decent if you ask me (not implying it switches in, in reponse to the "muh muh bulky waters D:" line of reasoning)

Edited September 9, 2015 by Robofiend

[gbwead]

If Ampharos (and Cradily) get a ban, is there any reliable/viable answer to Rain dance / Surf / Ice beam / Hidden power  electric Gorebys ? I'd like to know if anyone found something to deal with this little monster. 

 

 Edit :Oh thunderbolt Lapras maybe ? I don't find much else 

shedinja kek

I think Bellosom could potentially do well against Gorebys.

Kecleon with Recover could also be a nice answer.

 

The problem is that those pokemons are not incredibly viable...

 

Gorebys would be extremely scary if both Cradily and Ampharos leave NU. (It doesn't change anything in the decision to ban them though)

Edited September 9, 2015 by lamerb

[KaynineXL]

If Ampharos (and Cradily) get a ban, is there any reliable/viable answer to Rain dance / Surf / Ice beam / Hidden power  electric Gorebys ? I'd like to know if anyone found something to deal with this little monster. 

 

 Edit :Oh thunderbolt Lapras maybe ? I don't find much else 

Lapras for sure. Grumpig also has a good shot. Does gorebyss run HP and not speed? idk.

 

252+ SpA Gorebyss Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig in Rain: 79-94 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gorebyss: 58-70 (44.6 - 53.8%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO

[Kizhaz]

Lapras for sure. Grumpig also has a good shot. Does gorebyss run HP and not speed? idk.
 
252+ SpA Gorebyss Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig in Rain: 79-94 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
0 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gorebyss: 58-70 (44.6 - 53.8%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO

Should run enough speed for trode after the swift swim boost. Since its already slow asf I assume it leaves little room for HP investment

[KaynineXL]

Should run enough speed for trode after the swift swim boost. Since its already slow asf I assume it leaves little room for HP investment

Ah, then Grumpig should be fine. Well, that's if it stays NU. I have a feeling it's going.

 

The weird thing is, I feel Sp walls in NU aren't that strong defensive wise, but they have pretty good offensive(like Grumpig, Cradily setup easily & ampharos just has great offense) which is probably what makes them so strong to the point we're having these discussions. That's my thoughts. Probs wrong, but w/e.

Edited September 10, 2015 by KaynineXL

[DrCraig]

The weird thing is, I feel Sp walls in NU aren't that strong defensive wise, but they have pretty good offensive(like Grumpig, Cradily setup easily & ampharos just has great offense) which is probably what makes them so strong to the point we're having these discussions. That's my thoughts. Probs wrong, but w/e.

I agree Kay, and just to add/reiterate what you're saying, most specially bulky Pokemon in NU are double edged swords. Pokemon like Grumpig definitely could be stellar defensive walls and give some nice support with its great move pool. However the problem with most of NUs bulk is the lack of instant recovery moves which is gearing the tier towards being offense based. You want the opponent's Pokemon down, otherwise you have to leave yourself vulnerable resting. There are a lot of big threats and I don't think you can call, for example, Grumpig as much of a problem as Golduck. The offense in the tier is there because the defense simply isn't, but I digress. The double edge swords I referred to simply aren't as effective in the meta when filling defensive roles. Offensive variants are simply better right now. For Pokemon like ampharos which hits as hard as it does and has the coverage it has, a dedicated special wall is needed, but the meta just isn't adapting to that. I wouldn't say Ampharos is anything super special coming out of the NU threat list even if it's a monster on paper, which it is. The meta is pretty offensive and Ampharos is a pivot giving the preferred play style trouble.

[Robofiend]

This thing should probably get banned

 

Actually Blastoise should be banned, then Ampharos

Edited September 16, 2015 by Robofiend

[BurntZebra]

Other way around robo. We don't know for a fact that blastoise would be op without ampharos to counter it

[Robofiend]

Other way around robo. We don't know for a fact that blastoise would be op without ampharos to counter it

 

But it also might be the case that Ampharos has become more viable (to the point of being unhealthy) since Blastoise came into the tier. In fact, if you look at the trends in the usage stats, that's exactly what has happened. 

 

In the pre-Blastoise meta, Ampharos had a lot more trouble switching in and staying in because of how popular Hitmontop and other relatively weak EQ users were. Now that Blastoise exists as a fairly strong defensive pivot there's punishment for running weak EQ users, especially walls like 'montop.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Robofiend

[KaynineXL]

How does Ampharos counter toise? Like.. Toise eq does..

4 Atk Blastoise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I would not like to walk into that. Sure, it's not the most popular set... But I'v used it. It wasn't too bad.

[Bilburt]

Thats why counter is a thing