[NU Discussion] Ampharos - Moved to BL2

[KaynineXL]

1. Piloswine also is a bad argument, just cuz i missed that =), but you're right that Flareon counters Amphy reasonably well.

2. Hitmontop is almost always +def from what I've seen, although I'll accept the possibility of people also using spdef because it can be good.

3. Do you usage stat bro? Nidoking/queen were combined 13% usage

4. Camerupt is also 7% usage, not to mention that it dies to HP water, which has already been pointed out here

5. Swalot 2% usage kek

I'v always thought careful hitmon is pretty decent.

[felix]

Feels good when ampharos is uu by usage atm

rip then

 

1. Piloswine also is a bad argument, just cuz i missed that =), but you're right that Flareon counters Amphy reasonably well.

2. Hitmontop is almost always +def from what I've seen, although I'll accept the possibility of people also using spdef because it can be good.

3. Do you usage stat bro? Nidoking/queen were combined 13% usage

4. Camerupt is also 7% usage, not to mention that it dies to HP water, which has already been pointed out here

5. Swalot 2% usage kek

If you split the usage in groups, cause you have too much disparity from the top 4 to the 5-20, you will see that Nidos / Camerupt usage ain't that bad. If you consider that the top20 has 8.61%, Swalot usage isn't that bad either (not saying that is good).

 

I do see, using the usage again, in the top20 that ampharos rekts mostly of them, isn't the time to look to alternatives instead of hammering it? (not sure if there is a point to keep this discussion up, since Zebra is making spoiler about tier changes already)

[Robofiend]

rip then

 

If you split the usage in groups, cause you have too much disparity from the top 4 to the 5-20, you will see that Nidos / Camerupt usage ain't that bad. If you consider that the top20 has 8.61%, Swalot usage isn't that bad either (not saying that is good).

 

I do see, using the usage again, in the top20 that ampharos rekts mostly of them, isn't the time to look to alternatives instead of hammering it? (not sure if there is a point to keep this discussion up, since Zebra is making spoiler about tier changes already)

 

Well the thing is that this thread has been open for a long time and we've been trying to dig up counters for Amphy in hopes that one of them really takes off, but part of the problem (I've pointed this out before) is that anything that checks Ampharos outside of Roselia lets Blastoise into play, which can be a big pain to deal with since Blastoise has few checks/counters outside of Ampharos. The Nidos in particular have this problem. So there aren't a lot of viable alternatives as far as I've seen that can stop Amphy/Blast from being really effective - the fact that they are the top two most used pokes says a lot about how good they are.

 

Idk maybe it is a moot point since it looks like it'll be moved up by usage but that's the reasoning.

[felix]

Well the thing is that this thread has been open for a long time and we've been trying to dig up counters for Amphy in hopes that one of them really takes off, but part of the problem (I've pointed this out before) is that anything that checks Ampharos outside of Roselia lets Blastoise into play, which can be a big pain to deal with since Blastoise has few checks/counters outside of Ampharos. The Nidos in particular have this problem. So there aren't a lot of viable alternatives as far as I've seen that can stop Amphy/Blast from being really effective - the fact that they are the top two most used pokes says a lot about how good they are.

 

Idk maybe it is a moot point since it looks like it'll be moved up by usage but that's the reasoning.

I don't know if this is new policy from tier council, but I remember when someone opened a discussion about blastoise in the old UU talking about how good the combo Blastoise, Plume and Steelix are, and someone (I think was Senile, not sure tho), told that team build isn't a valid argument for bans, the poke itself must be a problem, not a pair or a combo.

Edited September 25, 2015 by felix

[NikhilR]

I don't know if this is new policy from tier council, but I remember when someone opened a discussion about blastoise in the old UU talking about how good the combo, Blastoise, Plume Steelix are, and someone (I think was Senile, not sure tho), told that team build isn't a valid argument for bans, the poke itself must be a problem, not a pair or a combo.

 

It was ThinkNice. 

[BurntZebra]

It was ThinkNice.

Was also me

[Robofiend]

I'm not saying the combo's broken, I'm saying both are unhealthy in their own rights and their high usage (~enough in UU to ban them from NU) speaks to their individual power, not just their usefulness as a core.

[DoubleJ]

When Torrent Blastoise isn't even a guaranteed 4HKO, you know you have a problem...

 

0 SpA Torrent Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ampharos: 55-66 (27.9 - 33.5%) -- 89.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

[Kizhaz]

When Torrent Blastoise isn't even a guaranteed 4HKO, you know you have a problem...
 
0 SpA Torrent Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ampharos: 55-66 (27.9 - 33.5%) -- 89.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Stop trying to break walls with walls :3

[Robofiend]

Stop trying to break walls with walls :3

 

but but ampharos isn't really a wall

 

no reliable recovery, 125 base SpA, near perfect coverage with the right HP = not really a wall

[RysPicz]

but but ampharos isn't really a wall

 

no reliable recovery, 125 base SpA, near perfect coverage with the right HP = not really a wall

As far as I am aware, it's defensive base stats, typing and spread makes the poke a wall or not. Arcanine has 95 base speed and 110 attack. Would you also "not call it a wall" ? Come on Robo :v

Edited October 12, 2015 by RysPicz

[Robofiend]

As far as I am aware, it's defensive base stats, typing and spread makes the poke a wall or not. Arcanine has 95 base speed and 110 attack. Would you also "not call it a wall" ? Come on Robo :v

 

Arcanine also has useful 90/80/80 defenses, reliable recovery and intimidate.

 

What I'm saying is that Amparos can be used as a (pseudo) wall, but it's not scary because it walls. It's scary because Tbolt hits lots of things hard, the Agil set can run wild after the enemy gets worn down a bit, and because it can wall. Arcanine, by contrast, can wall and support all day but it can't really break other walls that try and switch in against it.

[Robofiend]

Ampharos banned to BL2

 

 

Ampharos has been a top-tier threat in NU for most of the existence of the tier. Its great bulk, special attack stat, useful ability and typing allow it to effectively check many NU pokemon. Static allows it to paralyze the tier's threatening Physical sweepers (Scyther especially) and Heal Bell and Light Screen add to its support capabilities. However, despite its awesome abilities as a supporter, it also shines on offense, where its near perfect coverage and surprise Hidden Power turns many would-be checks into bait. While Gligar, Nidoking, Roselia, Camerupt and Whishcash all resist or take neutral damage from the standard Signal Beam + Thunderbolt combo, all of them can easily be baited or worn down by Agility sets, HP Ice/Water/Grass, or Ampharos can simply evade them. In particular, the Tiering council recognizes that Blastoise plays a large part in stopping these pokemon from being effective - however it is clearly less of a threat to the development of the metagame than Ampharos.

 

As such, the Tiering Council has voted to ban Ampharos (5-2) for being centralizing and unhealthy for the tier. Players have long complained that Ampharos requires them to focus too much energy on having something to check it and not enough energy on other threats, as well as violating the "keeping broken pokemon around to check other broken pokemon" rule. If anything, it's clear that Ampharos is very close to being "too good not to use" as it is cosistently used on more than half of teams. It's also clear that Ampharos has a large effect in checking other potent attackers like Golduck, Xatu, Blastoise, and Haunter - we believe that each of these pokemon will need to be watched and evaluated in the coming weeks and we will be evaluating the possibility of quickbans as needed.