[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[Vaeldras]

+1 252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Chansey in Sun: 654-769 (92.8 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

woah! ops lvl 100, thx forfie

 

Endure sub petaya new meta

 

 

+1 252+ SpA Charizard SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 208-246 (87.7 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

where's your vapo now?

 

 

But yeh, setting up with zard can be tricky.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Vaeldras

[RysPicz]

+1 252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Chansey in Sun: 654-769 (92.8 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

woah!

 

Endure sub petaya new meta

 

 

+1 252+ SpA Charizard SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 396-468 (85.3 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

where's your vapo now?

 

 

But yeh, setting up with zard can be tricky.

Noone runs calm chansey afaik

+1 252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Sun: 375-442 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Overheat vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Sun: 298-352 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

More accurate calcs

[Vaeldras]

Noone runs calm chansey afaik

+1 252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Sun: 375-442 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Overheat vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Sun: 298-352 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

More accurate calcs

 

I can't believe i forgot to lvl 50, thx.

gotta update vapo too

[NikhilR]

I'd  like to point out that Counter Chansey has become somewhat of a thing recently, so rip all those Metagrosses that hit it with Meteor Mash hoping for a boost to enable it to sweep. RIP to all those CB Dugtrios that try to beat it as well. 

[BurntZebra]

Counter Chansey will give up other valuable move slots then. No toxic or thunder wave means you're extremely predictable. No protect throws out a ton of the arguments about Chansey taking on physical attackers.

Chansey still isn't the most used Pokemon and isn't even near the usage of snorlax or blissey. Special attackers still see usage as well.

Also +1 Charizard calcs are fairly unrealistic vs vaporeon, as sun will be gone by the time Charizard can sub down to 25%.

[Robofiend]

Forf hit the nail on the head - since Chansey covers every spec. sweeper in the tier it frees up the rest of your team to do other things - mostly just stall the shit out of everyone else. Porygon2 can also do this, but it can get Toxic stalled to death, making it imperfect. If you imagine a meta where Chansey is banned, Porygon2 would have to pair with Vaporeon, Umbreon or Lanturn to be effective and all of these pokemon are open doors for a bunch of terrifying Pokes to switch in and start rolling over your team. With Chansey, however, all of this happens in the same place. It's a wall that checks other walls without being a complete blob on offense (yes, ST and Toxic damage suck to play against) and thus it sees a ton of usage. 

 

Counter Chansey will give up other valuable move slots then. No toxic or thunder wave means you're extremely predictable. No protect throws out a ton of the arguments about Chansey taking on physical attackers.

Chansey still isn't the most used Pokemon and isn't even near the usage of snorlax or blissey. Special attackers still see usage as well.

Also +1 Charizard calcs are fairly unrealistic vs vaporeon, as sun will be gone by the time Charizard can sub down to 25%.

 

Just run Counter/Toxic/Softboiled/ST

 

Saying "oh it's not used as much as Snorlax" doesn't actually mean anything - it's a cop out argument based on the idea that we ban things because they're highly used. We ban things because they're broken or unhealthy, not because they are used on 40, 50, or 60% of teams.

[Artemiseta]

what special attackers are you tlaking about zebra. just elaborate to help make your point stronger.

I tend to think that chansey is making special attackers unviable unless they have a secondary function. ie starmie as a spinner, slowbro as wall, magneton as a trapper.

and counter chansey is a problem. it loses some of is (rather predicable) "coverage" in twave or toxic in exchange for making a hole in the opponents team y having them lose their attacker. there is something to be said for softboil if running counter

sniped by robo

Edited November 7, 2015 by Artemiseta

[Vaeldras]

Counter Chansey will give up other valuable move slots then. No toxic or thunder wave means you're extremely predictable. No protect throws out a ton of the arguments about Chansey taking on physical attackers.

Chansey still isn't the most used Pokemon and isn't even near the usage of snorlax or blissey. Special attackers still see usage as well.

Also +1 Charizard calcs are fairly unrealistic vs vaporeon, as sun will be gone by the time Charizard can sub down to 25%.

 

Ye, fair point, not everyone runs chansey, but we'd have to see what those sp attackers are used with.

I mean, how many people use dugtrio with those sp attackers? 

 

Also looking at the usage thing, it seems even worse than what i figured:

There are only 3 sp attackers with a relevant usage rate, and 1 of them would be magneton which we all know what's being used for.

I suspect jolteon and especially starmie are really only used because of their support abilities though.

I mean, it's been months since i've seen a not bulky starmie around.

Jolteon has wish support and can play around chansey, but it's really only that and zard.

[BurntZebra]

Forf hit the nail on the head - since Chansey covers every spec. sweeper in the tier it frees up the rest of your team to do other things - mostly just stall the shit out of everyone else. Porygon2 can also do this, but it can get Toxic stalled to death, making it imperfect. If you imagine a meta where Chansey is banned, Porygon2 would have to pair with Vaporeon, Umbreon or Lanturn to be effective and all of these pokemon are open doors for a bunch of terrifying Pokes to switch in and start rolling over your team. With Chansey, however, all of this happens in the same place. It's a wall that checks other walls without being a complete blob on offense (yes, ST and Toxic damage suck to play against) and thus it sees a ton of usage.


Just run Counter/Toxic/Softboiled/ST

Saying "oh it's not used as much as Snorlax" doesn't actually mean anything - it's a cop out argument based on the idea that we ban things because they're highly used. We ban things because they're broken or unhealthy, not because they are used on 40, 50, or 60% of teams.

Chansey doesn't cover Charizard, fake tears jolteon, metal sound magneton, haunter, calm mind lum berry espeon, calm mind lum berry Alakazam, and Pokemon that can double as perish trappers like misdreavus, lapras, and Jynx.

I honestly don't know what people are looking for. These special attackers can all beat Chansey assuming Chansey switches in on them. It's like complaining that skarmory stops too many physical attackers and therefore it should be banned because it makes physical attackers "unviable".

I believe an unhealthy ban Pokemon needs to have a large impact on the meta for it to actually be a ban. Chansey doesn't fit on offensive teams as it kills momentum too much and some balanced teams don't run it either as porygon has a more efficient role on a balanced team being able to take on special attackers and gyarados..

[Vaeldras]

Chansey doesn't cover Charizard, fake tears jolteon, metal sound magneton, haunter, calm mind lum berry espeon, calm mind lum berry Alakazam, and Pokemon that can double as perish trappers like misdreavus, lapras, and Jynx.

I honestly don't know what people are looking for. These special attackers can all beat Chansey assuming Chansey switches in on them. It's like complaining that skarmory stops too many physical attackers and therefore it should be banned because it makes physical attackers "unviable".

I believe an unhealthy ban Pokemon needs to have a large impact on the meta for it to actually be a ban. Chansey doesn't fit on offensive teams as it kills momentum too much and some balanced teams don't run it either as porygon has a more efficient role on a balanced team being able to take on special attackers and gyarados..

 

Lol even swampert can 3hko skarm, and it has only rest

Chansey is another story, no ph wall can be compared to that

Edited November 7, 2015 by Vaeldras

[LuisPocho]

Chansey doesn't cover Charizard, fake tears jolteon, metal sound magneton, haunter, calm mind lum berry espeon, calm mind lum berry Alakazam, and Pokemon that can double as perish trappers like misdreavus, lapras, and Jynx.

I honestly don't know what people are looking for. These special attackers can all beat Chansey assuming Chansey switches in on them. It's like complaining that skarmory stops too many physical attackers and therefore it should be banned because it makes physical attackers "unviable".

I believe an unhealthy ban Pokemon needs to have a large impact on the meta for it to actually be a ban. Chansey doesn't fit on offensive teams as it kills momentum too much and some balanced teams don't run it either as porygon has a more efficient role on a balanced team being able to take on special attackers and gyarados..

+6 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 237-279 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

thats after 6 calm mind, quite unrealistic

+3 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 148-175 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

with +3 chansey stills heals more that is damaged... 4+ can 2 hit ko... +5 to be sure...

so, how many turns you need to kill that chansey?

[BurntZebra]

+6 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 237-279 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

thats after 6 calm mind, quite unrealistic

+3 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 148-175 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

with +3 chansey stills heals more that is damaged... 4+ can 2 hit ko... +5 to be sure...

so, how many turns you need to kill that chansey?

Synchronize the toxic. Then at +3, psychic 2hkos. If Chansey doesn't toxic, then espeon just can morning sun off damage easily.

Also no one runs max hp/sp def calm Chansey. Any argument about Chansey being able to take on physical attackers goes out the window when Chansey runs 0 def evs

[RysPicz]

+6 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 237-279 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

thats after 6 calm mind, quite unrealistic

+3 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 148-175 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

with +3 chansey stills heals more that is damaged... 4+ can 2 hit ko... +5 to be sure...

so, how many turns you need to kill that chansey?

Let's also be realistic and objective, noone runs 252/252+ Chansey. All of them are 252HP/def+ or 252def+/252sdef.

 

+3 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 162-192 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 258-304 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[NikhilR]

IGN: NikhilR

 

The epicness of fail.

Edited November 7, 2015 by NikhilR

[LuisPocho]

 

Let's also be realistic and objective, noone runs 252/252+ Chansey. All of them are 252HP/def+ or 252def+/252sdef.

 

+3 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 162-192 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 258-304 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 
okey thats a good point, still with the syncronice... it would go like this?

1st turn chansey use toxic// espeon calm mind
2nd turn chansey use aromatherapy//espeon calm mind
3rd turn chansey use seismic toss//espeon calm mind
4rd turn chansey use seismic toss// espeon rest with berry, so you got a +3 full hp not toxic espeon
5th turn chansey use toxic again? os seismic?//espeon use physchic
6th turn chansey dies because espeon hits again

it would be like that?

[Vaeldras]

 
okey thats a good point, still with the syncronice... it would go like this?

1st turn chansey use toxic// espeon calm mind
2nd turn chansey use aromatherapy//espeon calm mind
3rd turn chansey use seismic toss//espeon calm mind
4rd turn chansey use seismic toss// espeon rest with berry, so you got a +3 full hp not toxic espeon
5th turn chansey use toxic again? os seismic?//espeon use physchic
6th turn chansey dies because espeon hits again

it would be like that?

 

morning sun yo

[Robofiend]

Look this whole espeon discussion is a bit of a moot point, mostly because it is used really infrequently and the sets it needs to run to beat chansey make it less effective against a lot of other things.

It needs signal beam for slowbro, hp fire to prevent skarmory from whirlwinding or metagross from mashing it and running rest berry means it gives up passive recovery which is really important for beating stall. Slowbro is the least of these worries but it's worth mentioning.

So yeah, we're talking about how a Pokemon that is rarely or never used beats chansey with a very particular set that doesn't do much for the discussion. I'm not saying it's definitely banworthy but I don't find this argument super compelling, nor is it really fair to assume chansey will just stay in against magneton or jolteon when it's at -2.

Tl;dr these special sweepers might "beat" chansey in theory but if often seems like they need full health, no status and very particular sets. On top of that, none are highly used or even very viable in the first place and part of that is because chansey makes their lives suck more than pory or something.

[LuisPocho]

Look this whole espeon discussion is a bit of a moot point, mostly because it is used really infrequently and the sets it needs to run to beat chansey make it less effective against a lot of other things.

It needs signal beam for slowbro, hp fire to prevent skarmory from whirlwinding or metagross from mashing it and running rest berry means it gives up passive recovery which is really important for beating stall. Slowbro is the least of these worries but it's worth mentioning.

So yeah, we're talking about how a Pokemon that is rarely or never used beats chansey with a very particular set that doesn't do much for the discussion. I'm not saying it's definitely banworthy but I don't find this argument super compelling, nor is it really fair to assume chansey will just stay in against magneton or jolteon when it's at -2.

Tl;dr these special sweepers might "beat" chansey in theory but if often seems like they need full health, no status and very particular sets. On top of that, none are highly used or even very viable in the first place and part of that is because chansey makes their lives suck more than pory or something.

thats the point, the best posible especial attack counter is not that good (and its worse if they have aerodactyl or houndoom)... even with all what zebra said, its hard to see chansey as a healthy pokemon

 

[BurntZebra]

Look this whole espeon discussion is a bit of a moot point, mostly because it is used really infrequently and the sets it needs to run to beat chansey make it less effective against a lot of other things.

It needs signal beam for slowbro, hp fire to prevent skarmory from whirlwinding or metagross from mashing it and running rest berry means it gives up passive recovery which is really important for beating stall. Slowbro is the least of these worries but it's worth mentioning.

So yeah, we're talking about how a Pokemon that is rarely or never used beats chansey with a very particular set that doesn't do much for the discussion. I'm not saying it's definitely banworthy but I don't find this argument super compelling, nor is it really fair to assume chansey will just stay in against magneton or jolteon when it's at -2.

Tl;dr these special sweepers might "beat" chansey in theory but if often seems like they need full health, no status and very particular sets. On top of that, none are highly used or even very viable in the first place and part of that is because chansey makes their lives suck more than pory or something.

Espeon already runs morning sun+calm mind+psychic normally. It can still run signal beam or hidden power fire while being able to beat chansey.

 

If you're just going to dismiss that chansey can switch out from jolteon/magneton, then all arguments about chansey being able to take on all special attackers goes out the window because you're implying that you have something else that is able to take a hidden power grass or ice or stab thunderbolt, like venusaur or dusclops or porygon2. 

[Robofiend]

I mean part of the problem is that unlike boosting attackers, there's really no penalty for swapping chansey out and sending in flygon marowak, hp fire mag, swampert, etc. all of whom absorb the tbolt that magneton needs to hit to beat chansey. It's not like you need another wall to do that job and chansey provides so much support that any of these options can be saved by wish another time if they take a hp, so long as it's not 4x.

Like I said, this would be a better argument if people were actually using magneton jolteon or espeon but the stats indicate that they're not super viable.

[BurntZebra]

I mean part of the problem is that unlike boosting attackers, there's really no penalty for swapping chansey out and sending in flygon marowak, hp fire mag, swampert, etc. all of whom absorb the tbolt that magneton needs to hit to beat chansey. It's not like you need another wall to do that job and chansey provides so much support that any of these options can be saved by wish another time if they take a hp, so long as it's not 4x.

Like I said, this would be a better argument if people were actually using magneton jolteon or espeon but the stats indicate that they're not super viable.

Magneton is at 19% and jolteon is at 11%. If you haven't realized, that's relatively average for offensive pokemon in our meta. Heracross is only at 21% usage. Ursaring is even below jolteon at about 10%. You can't expect special sweepers to have the same usage as the defensive pokemon in a meta where defensive play is more used. 

 

Flygon and swampert both don't really want to come in vs either of magneton's respective hp's as they will meet a quick death. Switching in magneton is usually not a good idea as then that magneton is trapped and will lose the battle if it is slower or doesn't have hp fire. Marowak can survive one hidden power, although its not really used that much. A much safer alternative that doesn't risk losing one of your offensive pokemon or your method of taking down skarmory is to run something that actually takes a thunderbolt or hidden power from magneton.

 

The same argument also occurs when its chansey vs espeon and chansey is toxic'ed from synchronize, and needs to switch out to remove the toxic, but must risk having a pokemon take a +2 or +3 psychic or hidden power fire from espeon. 

[LuisPocho]

Magneton is at 19% and jolteon is at 11%. If you haven't realized, that's relatively average for offensive pokemon in our meta. Heracross is only at 21% usage. Ursaring is even below jolteon at about 10%. You can't expect special sweepers to have the same usage as the defensive pokemon in a meta where defensive play is more used. 

 

The same argument also occurs when its chansey vs espeon and chansey is toxic'ed from synchronize, and needs to switch out to remove the toxic, but must risk having a pokemon take a +2 or +3 psychic or hidden power fire from espeon. 

so, in your opinion, the special sweepers that can force chansey to switch or kill it are Speon with calm mind/rest; Jolteon with fake tears (with morning sun and substitude too?); and Magneton... well, Alakazam should be the same case as Espeon

[BurntZebra]

so, in your opinion, the special sweepers that can force chansey to switch or kill it are Speon with calm mind/rest; Jolteon with fake tears (with morning sun and substitude too?); and Magneton... well, Alakazam should be the same case as Espeon

Espeon with morning sun and lum berry. Alakazam is basically the same situation as espeon. There are other special attackers that can beat Chansey but I'll admit that they're not used that much because of metagross/aerodactyl.

[zteban]

so, have been a proper amount of time. will be test banned or remain in OU?

[LuisPocho]

Espeon with morning sun and lum berry. Alakazam is basically the same situation as espeon. There are other special attackers that can beat Chansey but I'll admit that they're not used that much because of metagross/aerodactyl.

I was trying a bit all what you said during this days...

I dont want to make it long, so just gonna resume. The pokemons you said that can set up while chansey is trying to stop them can actually kill Chansey, but you end up with a very poisoned and damaged pokemon cuz even with lum berry chansey can toxic you twice before you set up enough to 2 hit KO chansey... still, if Chansey miss one toxic, or if it gets a crit or something like that it can be different...

buuuuuuut, all what you said was about a 252 hp 0 sp.def chansey... if people start using chanseys with evs in sp.def (I dont see why they wouldnt) then you would never be able to set up anything that can kill chansey with special attacks...

another problem is that the necessity to set up for a couple of turns to set up chansey, means that you are quite predictable, meaning your opponent can switch for a fast fisical bander... of course, it is risky but the same goes for you, if you attack before you are compretely set up you may not be able to kill chansey

and another one, is that with chansey around the special sweepers need more suportive moves, so they get less coverage

maybe Im missing something, but still I would prefer another bander instead a special sweeper while chansey is so popular xD

Edited November 30, 2015 by LuisPocho