[UU Discussion] Scizor (Banned to BL)

[DoubleJ]

Can only see the meta getting worse, walls can only wall easier and swellow is pretty impossible to switch in with an offensive threat. But you guys can address that later I suppose.

 

Return of bulky Granbull?

[Albeast33]

As I recall, the goal of shifting Pokémon from tier to tier is shifting to increase the health of the Metagame. While I understand that Scizor poses a massive threat with Return and it's neutral coverage, we need to look at what will happen to the Meta overall as the CM was saying earlier.

 

If Scizor is removed, Steelix gets more usage, however Steelix is a situational wall at best, and tenfold easier to check and counter. Furthermore, the variety in UU suffers because without Scizor, we are removing the only realistically used bug type in UU, but also the main counter to toxic. While an argument exists that Steelix can fill this role, like I said earlier, Scizor is easily taken out by a special attacker with neutral coverage, and toxic will run rampart.

 

Now lets talk about what will happen to Scizor itself if the ban goes through. Scizor will but put in BL, see nearly no usage in OU with the usage of Charizard and Arcanine, along with the commonly seen Flamethrower, and will eventually drop down from BL to UU after seeing nearly no usage.

 

The point many people were trying to make earlier I believe was actually to outline this vigorous cycle that will ensue if we decide to ban Scizor. Looking at the UU viability thread, Scizor ranks as an S. Why are we going to punish a Pokémon that simply does well in it's tier and plays a consistent role?

 

Scizor in UU is much like Metagross in OU in terms of how it is centralized. Both of the Pokémon are commonly used in the tier because they are effective at what they do, and can be used by players for a variety of roles. It take skill to knock out both of these Pokémon, but not so much that they can be considered ban-worthy. They are key cogs in their teams, but can still be game planned for. Moving Scizor to OU is like making Metagross an Uber simply because they are good at what they do, and many people use them. 

[IndigoGlacier]

As I recall, the goal of shifting Pokémon from tier to tier is shifting to increase the health of the Metagame. While I understand that Scizor poses a massive threat with Return and it's neutral coverage, we need to look at what will happen to the Meta overall as the CM was saying earlier.

 

If Scizor is removed, Steelix gets more usage, however Steelix is a situational wall at best, and tenfold easier to check and counter. Furthermore, the variety in UU suffers because without Scizor, we are removing the only realistically used bug type in UU, but also the main counter to toxic. While an argument exists that Steelix can fill this role, like I said earlier, Scizor is easily taken out by a special attacker with neutral coverage, and toxic will run rampart.

 

Now lets talk about what will happen to Scizor itself if the ban goes through. Scizor will but put in BL, see nearly no usage in OU with the usage of Charizard and Arcanine, along with the commonly seen Flamethrower, and will eventually drop down from BL to UU after seeing nearly no usage.

 

The point many people were trying to make earlier I believe was actually to outline this vigorous cycle that will ensue if we decide to ban Scizor. Looking at the UU viability thread, Scizor ranks as an S. Why are we going to punish a Pokémon that simply does well in it's tier and plays a consistent role?

 

Scizor in UU is much like Metagross in OU in terms of how it is centralized. Both of the Pokémon are commonly used in the tier because they are effective at what they do, and can be used by players for a variety of roles. It take skill to knock out both of these Pokémon, but not so much that they can be considered ban-worthy. They are key cogs in their teams, but can still be game planned for. Moving Scizor to OU is like making Metagross an Uber simply because they are good at what they do, and many people use them. 

I kind of disagree. In Ou there's many counters for metagross without changing your whole team, and meta has more weaknesses(ground). The only thing to be worried about sweeping wise from meta is if rng comes in from meteor mash/ elemental punches. Not saying he isn't a threat, but comparable to scizor in uu there's not much. Scizor has the ability to setup, and the pokes that can stop him are limited. Off the top of my head there's manetric, houndoom, and slowking. Two of which that are too fragile if they come in on a sd boost, and i remember scizor having quick attack for priority. If everyone runs a slowking/ any poke w flamethrower just for scizor, don't you think that there's a problem? Also i don't see the reason to not ban a poke because it might not do well in ou. 

[Gunthug]

As I recall, the goal of shifting Pokémon from tier to tier is shifting to increase the health of the Metagame. While I understand that Scizor poses a massive threat with Return and it's neutral coverage, we need to look at what will happen to the Meta overall as the CM was saying earlier.

If Scizor is removed, Steelix gets more usage, however Steelix is a situational wall at best, and tenfold easier to check and counter. Furthermore, the variety in UU suffers because without Scizor, we are removing the only realistically used bug type in UU, but also the main counter to toxic. While an argument exists that Steelix can fill this role, like I said earlier, Scizor is easily taken out by a special attacker with neutral coverage, and toxic will run rampart.

Now lets talk about what will happen to Scizor itself if the ban goes through. Scizor will but put in BL, see nearly no usage in OU with the usage of Charizard and Arcanine, along with the commonly seen Flamethrower, and will eventually drop down from BL to UU after seeing nearly no usage.

The point many people were trying to make earlier I believe was actually to outline this vigorous cycle that will ensue if we decide to ban Scizor. Looking at the UU viability thread, Scizor ranks as an S. Why are we going to punish a Pokémon that simply does well in it's tier and plays a consistent role?

Scizor in UU is much like Metagross in OU in terms of how it is centralized. Both of the Pokémon are commonly used in the tier because they are effective at what they do, and can be used by players for a variety of roles. It take skill to knock out both of these Pokémon, but not so much that they can be considered ban-worthy. They are key cogs in their teams, but can still be game planned for. Moving Scizor to OU is like making Metagross an Uber simply because they are good at what they do, and many people use them.

Huge mistake on the UU->BL->UU comment but it's understandable because scizor has been on a wild ride. Once banned to BL, it's usage in OU doesn't matter. Pokemon (typically) don't return to a lower tier once they've been banned to BL. Scizor was brought back down with a few other BL threats once, in an effort to strengthen a dismal tier. That was an anomaly though

[Albeast33]

Huge mistake on the UU->BL->UU comment but it's understandable because scizor has been on a wild ride. Once banned to BL, it's usage in OU doesn't matter. Pokemon (typically) don't return to a lower tier once they've been banned to BL. Scizor was brought back down with a few other BL threats once, in an effort to strengthen a dismal tier. That was an anomaly though

But that's they key to everything, Scizor defines the tier. Without Scizor, it becomes a dismal tier again.

[Gunthug]

But that's they key to everything, Scizor defines the tier. Without Scizor, it becomes a dismal tier again.

I think a lot of people who play UU more than I do would argue that it's ALREADY a dismal tier

[Albeast33]

Going back to my defining point, it is said in the actual UU Viability Thread, that class S defines the tier. The only two Pokémon there are Slowking and Scizor. They are the epitome of their tier, they do their roles extremely well, and they define the tier because they keep everything else in check.

 

What I'm saying is that Scizor is a vital cog to the UU tier that keeps it from being absolutely dismal.

[Gunthug]

Going back to my defining point, it is said in the actual UU Viability Thread, that class S defines the tier. The only two Pokémon there are Slowking and Scizor. They are the epitome of their tier, they do their roles extremely well, and they define the tier because they keep everything else in check.

 

What I'm saying is that Scizor is a vital cog to the UU tier that keeps it from being absolutely dismal.

What, specifically, do you think scizor is keeping from ruining the tier?

[DrCraig]

Going back to my defining point, it is said in the actual UU Viability Thread, that class S defines the tier. The only two Pokémon there are Slowking and Scizor. They are the epitome of their tier, they do their roles extremely well, and they define the tier because they keep everything else in check.
 
What I'm saying is that Scizor is a vital cog to the UU tier that keeps it from being absolutely dismal.

Viability ranks don't correlate to them being healthy or not

[Albeast33]

Well for one, its a reliable option to negate Toxic, whereas Steelix can be dealt with far easier than Scizor. It also keeps the sweepers of the tier in check when no other Pokémon provides the same assurance Scizor does.

 

I think most people agree when I say Scizor is an excellent defender, but it can be broken. You shouldn't ban Scizor because it knocks out one Pokémon before being revenge killed. The entire point of the game is to knock out your opponents team, and Scizor provides an efficient manner to doing so. If it knocks out one of your Pokémon, then it will instantly face a Manectric, Houndoom, or anything else with a fire attack. Lets face it, at least ONE Pokémon on your team has a fire attack, and that's enough to fend off Scizor because of his x4 fire weakness. If that Pokémon is already knocked out and you have no counters/checks left, then you were simply outplayed.  

 

An interesting note I saw earlier was the usage of Morning Sun on Scizor. I'd like to see stats if they are available for the number of Scizors that actually utilize Morning Sun, as numerous players I have run into suggest that it's not a commonly used move set, and would not recommend it. 

 

At this point most players agree that just because Scizor is a great defender, that isn't enough to ban it. Therefore, the question of the ban relies on its offense prowess, or in my opinion, lack thereof.

 

Let's look at this step by step, with Scizor being a physical attacker, with a base stat of 130. We can all agree that is powerful, so why do I not support the ban? Lets look at Scizor's most commonly used offensive moves:

 

Aerial Ace- Doesn't miss, gives Scizor nice versatility, but only a base power of 60. Unless you deal a super effective hit which may require some predicting, this is a move that needs to be set up to threaten teams, time it doesn't have against the sweepers in the tier, or really anything that has a base speed of 65<.

 

Pursuit- A strategic move that gets a nice bonus from Scizor's base stat, but if we aren't banning other physical sweepers because of Pursuit, you shouldn't use it against Scizor.

 

Steel Wing- Scizor's only decent STAB move, but it comes with the caveat of 90 accuracy. In a comp situation, any risk can cost you the game.

 

Return- Return is one of Scizor's go to moves, and can reliably hit a lot of the tier. However, it can countered completely by Haunter, and checked by many rock types, including the odd Omaster or Kabutops every now and then. I understand why many people cringe when they get hit by a Scizor's return, but there are Pokémon who can take the hit, and worst case scenario, send in a revenge killer.

 

Superpower- Hits hard, but lowers your stats in the process. It is a very threatening move, but also poses a high risk if your opponent switches into Altaria, Claydol, or really anything that resists a fighting type move. To replenish those stats, time is needed for a Swords Dance set up, but that time is the time where it can easily be knocked out by a fire move.

 

All in all, that's a very predictable move set. If it does hit, it will it hard, but a well timed switch while it sets up is all you need to threaten Scizor, or just a revenge kill in the worst case scenario. If your fire move user is already knocked out, that's simply being outplayed. 

 

Finally, looking once again at the UU viability thread, in the A+ column and A column, I'm seeing a vast majority of sweepers like, Tentacruel, Manectric, Houndoom, Swellow, or just powerful tanks like Kangaskhan, Vileplume and Crawdaunt. What Scizor does is keep all of these in check, or the entire UU Metagame would consist of sweepers.

 

Keep Scizor for the sake of the UU Metagame.

[KingBowser]

I can only see scizor as a positive, the tier is just full of walls with instant recovery, forces them to give up coverage. Banning an offensive poke never makes a tier less wally, makes it way easier for them to do so . Isnt that what the problem with uu is?

[DoubleJ]

At Albeast33, your last statement was a pretty good argument in support of keeping Scizor in the tier. You highlighted the essential criteria to maintain an S-class borderline uber in the tier, and to add to your argument you defined the fact that Scizor itself is really limited right now in the current rendition of the UU tier. It really only plays the role of a "hit and run" attacker with Choice Band. This is mostly due to the prevalence of Slowking and the ever present fear of a Kangaskhan Fire Punch or a sneaky Hidden Power Fire from an unsuspecting (but now highly common) wall like Exeggutor or Vileplume. Is this over-centralization? To some it is, to others it's just smart play. In the end though we need to assess what the primary conflict in UU is right now, whether that is Slowking's ability to check and stall-out the majority of the tier or Scizor's ability to punch holes in every team available. 

 

Personally, I would suggest banning Slowking, because honestly there is no defensive wall that compares outside of Kangaskhan and it prevents a lot of offensive options from being successful. It just chokes the tier in so many ways. After that we can "suspect" Scizor by analyzing whether it is broken in a tier that should in theory be less reliant on walls, or whether a bump in offense will hold it in check even further. With Slowking gone, we might be able to see a rise in attackers like Ninetales which even further prevent Scizor from doing anything other than get a chance revenge kill.

 

I would also promote bringing down Sceptile once Slowking is banned and a decision is made on Scizor. One step at a time though. 

[Gunthug]

I tend to get fancy in my descriptions, but honestly, throw a comma in there and we good. Reported for derailing btw. 

I'd address albeast's post directly, which I think was a pretty poor argument that you gave far too much credit to, but I just don't watch enough UU to be able to dictate what is and isn't healthy right now. Based on what little I have spectated, I don't see much wrong with the tier at all. I see a lot of creative teambuilds and sets just in UU PSL matches and later rounds of tournaments alone.

 

I am starting to warm up to a sceptile test though

[DoubleJ]

I'd address albeast's post directly, which I think was a pretty poor argument that you gave far too much credit to, but I just don't watch enough UU to be able to dictate what is and isn't healthy right now. Based on what little I have spectated, I don't see much wrong with the tier at all. I see a lot of creative teambuilds and sets just in UU PSL matches and later rounds of tournaments alone.

 

I am starting to warm up to a sceptile test though

 

I appreciate this form of discussion and honesty. In response I have to state that while there are creative sets being seen in the PSL, there isn't much correlation to the actual tournament scene. PSL promotes surprise and creativity since you play one match a week, while tournament play doesn't because of scouting from match-to-match and the ease of which you can make a simple defensive adjustment to stop previously used surprise teams. Playing in the PSL is like playing in the first round of a tournament, once your past that first round though things tend to get stale and common builds rise above others, which is even more apparent in the current form of UU. It's just stagnant from player to player and tournament to tournament. 

On the other hand though I personally can't say that UU is broken because of how much variety I am able to put into each of my teambuilds, but I can state that it is very centralized around three pokemon: Slowking, Scizor, and Kangaskhan. 

[Robofiend]

At Albeast33, your last statement was a pretty good argument in support of keeping Scizor in the tier. You highlighted the essential criteria to maintain an S-class borderline uber in the tier, and to add to your argument you defined the fact that Scizor itself is really limited right now in the current rendition of the UU tier. It really only plays the role of a "hit and run" attacker with Choice Band. This is mostly due to the prevalence of Slowking and the ever present fear of a Kangaskhan Fire Punch or a sneaky Hidden Power Fire from an unsuspecting (but now highly common) wall like Exeggutor or Vileplume. Is this over-centralization? To some it is, to others it's just smart play. In the end though we need to assess what the primary conflict in UU is right now, whether that is Slowking's ability to check and stall-out the majority of the tier or Scizor's ability to punch holes in every team available. 

 

Personally, I would suggest banning Slowking, because honestly there is no defensive wall that compares outside of Kangaskhan and it prevents a lot of offensive options from being successful. It just chokes the tier in so many ways. After that we can "suspect" Scizor by analyzing whether it is broken in a tier that should in theory be less reliant on walls, or whether a bump in offense will hold it in check even further. With Slowking gone, we might be able to see a rise in attackers like Ninetales which even further prevent Scizor from doing anything other than get a chance revenge kill.

 

I would also promote bringing down Sceptile once Slowking is banned and a decision is made on Scizor. One step at a time though. 

 

My only concern is that Kanga is so good against fire sweepers that it makes things like Ninetales pretty hard to use, not to mention that Houndoom can absolutely go HAM on Ninetales unless it has a HP Fighting and a CM boost under its belt to threaten it. The same argument kinda goes for Houndoom itself and other Psychic sweepers who can't break through Kanga without taking massive damage from Return. If Slowking is banned it's almost guaranteed that Scizor will go as well because we're removing its biggest counter.

 

Imo banning Scizor is the best thing to do because Slowking's usage is inflated by it. With no Scizor we might see two things:

 

1. Checks like Ampharos, Crawdaunt and Absol becoming more used and helping to stop Slowking from being overpowered.

2. Slowking adapts to the Scizor-less meta by using different movesets to beat newly viable pokemon (for instance, running Signal beam to hit Dark types, Twave to stop sweepers or some one-off move like EQ or focus punch to hit Kangaskhan. This isn't necessarily bad, but I could also see Slowking being awesome even when there's no Scizor there to check it.

 

TL;DR - Scizor is so much more threatening than Slowking that I can't see a reason to keep it around and ban its best counter instead.

 

Can't tell which made-up tiering terminology I like more: this, or "Smogon-esque UU special wall core"

 

Seems legit, S-Rank/Borderline Uber is a real class of things e.g. Megazard or M-Sableye

 

EDIT: glad to see some support for Sceptile, too

Edited December 18, 2015 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

In response to Robofiend, there is almost no wrong move here and that's the reason why I personally promote banning both. I am more eager to ban Slowking though because Scizor hurts walls (wall-breaker duh) and in my assessment UU is problematic because it has walls that dominate nearly all offensive threats. Walls on the other hand can adjust to Scizor somewhat easily by simply running a fire attack, while offensive options can't alter their move-sets to handle Slowking so easily. Banning Slowking will certainly provide an increase in diversity, but it also promotes the function of our currently overpowered defensive core because it loses one additional check.

If we ban Scizor and keep Slowking, what do you honestly see changing in UU other than variety in Slowking's moveset? Ampharos can easily be used in today's meta because Scizor doesn't really have much for it (Static, resists Steel Wing, Reflect, etc), but it isn't because there are defensive options that are just better. Absol likely won't see any additional usage because of Vileplume and the fact it is too fragile to be a successful Swords Dance user.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Absol Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 90-107 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Without Scizor, walls like Vileplume can wall even harder by not having to rely on HP Fire. We will likely see an even stronger defensive core because Plume can run Aromatherapy with Synthesis and Exegg can run Protect or Leech Seed with Synthesis as well. Without Scizor, the defensive cores will just get even harder to break. 

[Robofiend]

In response to Robofiend, there is almost no wrong move here and that's the reason why I personally promote banning both. I am more eager to ban Slowking though because Scizor hurts walls (wall-breaker duh) and in my assessment UU is problematic because it has walls that dominate nearly all offensive threats. Walls on the other hand can adjust to Scizor somewhat easily by simply running a fire attack, while offensive options can't alter their move-sets to handle Slowking so easily. Banning Slowking will certainly provide an increase in diversity, but it also promotes the function of our currently overpowered defensive core because it loses one additional check.

If we ban Scizor and keep Slowking, what do you honestly see changing in UU other than variety in Slowking's moveset? Ampharos can easily be used in today's meta because Scizor doesn't really have much for it (Static, resists Steel Wing, Reflect, etc), but it isn't because there are defensive options that are just better. Absol likely won't see any additional usage because of Vileplume and the fact it is too fragile to be a successful Swords Dance user.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Absol Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 90-107 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Without Scizor, walls like Vileplume can wall even harder by not having to rely on HP Fire. We will likely see an even stronger defensive core because Plume can run Aromatherapy with Synthesis and Exegg can run Protect or Leech Seed with Synthesis as well. Without Scizor, the defensive cores will just get even harder to break. 

 

Well there's also the argument that Scizor hard stops lots of physical offense. CB/Bulk Up Granbull can get pretty scary against common cores but when Scizor has an easy switch in on Return and it outspeeds AND it has access to a SE move, it's easy to see why people don't use the bull or even something like Adamant Kanga. Swellow also suffers as a result of Scizor's Pursuit trapping and is also useful for offense since it can nuke Kanga and other Toxic stallers. I'm sure there are other pokes we could argue about (Sceptile would also be in trouble unless it had HP Fire) but the bottom line is that Scizor might be as much of a problem defensively as it is offensively, letting wall teams wall better by removing certain key threats at a low opportunity cost.

 

I def. see where you're coming from and ultimately think that both are at the top of the list of scary shit in UU. 

[Leorodo]

I think there are enough reasons why scizor should be banned due to its offensive and defensive capabilities but just want to add a bit about the tier after a potential scizor ban.

 

BurntZebra, on 06 Dec 2015 - 9:15 PM, said:

There are so many wallbreakers in UU that can break through defensive teams, its just that scizor prevents a lot of them from working to the fullest extent.

 

I do think with scizor gone the tier will allow for more offense as opposed to everyone running walls. These offensive threats will keep slowking and other walls in check. Psychic CMers will have no need for hp fire anymore and could run taunt/whirlwind/lovely kiss to prevent slowking setting up. Of course there is still houndoom but it also gives the option of running a hidden power for doom without being forced to run hp fire for scizor. Sneasel was a great wall-breaker in UU when scizor was previously banned- it is a great pivot for predicted psychics from exeggutor and can break the slowking/plume cores very effectively with the right support/predictions. Other offensive options prevented by scizor are; ddance altaria, curse cradily, haunter, swellow, CB Kanga, bull and zangoose etc... all of which do not promote stall like is being suggested when scizor is banned. We still have crawdaunt which can crunch without fear of scizor setup(before or after a kill depending on the bulk of the sciz) and handles slowking very well(being wary of twave) 

 

It can be argued that some NU megahorn users may have a niche in the tier with scizor gone:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Stantler Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 150-178 (74.2 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Stantler Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 93-111 (51.3 - 61.3%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

On the swellow issue we have both steelix and omastar which are very effective in keeping swellow in check whereas with scizor in the tier it can setup on both of these (even with roar steelix it is going to take a strong superpower before being phased out) These, namely steelix would be more viable with scizor gone . However, the aforemention wallbreakers still do a great job at wearing these walls down with their lack of reliable recovery and can be worn down fairly easily with banded/sd low kicks/eqs/superpowers.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Leorodo

[KaynineXL]

 

stuff

You can click this button to remove formatting if you didn't know. Sorry for the derail.

Edited December 18, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Albeast33]

While I see a lot of talk about walls going on, many of the better Pokémon in UU are less so walls, and more so sweepers, or at least, less bulky walls more used for attacking.

 

Scizor (and to an extend Slowking, but I'm not going to argue about Slowking here), provides the tier with a reliable defensive option. Running any fire move at all threatens Scizor, so it doesn't fit ban criteria to easily wall the entire tier without difficulty. Later, I'll post every fire type move that a UU Pokémon (and some NU Pokémon) can use to counter Scizor simply to outline that while it is a class S Pokémon, it is only that, and not ban worthy.

 

Scizor in a sense is almost the fulcrum of the tier. Scizor was brought down for the purpose of improving the tier, and that's what it did. Why are we trying to fix what isn't broken?

 

Also, can someone PM me the usage stats for UU Pokémon? Thank you in advance.

[Robofiend]

While I see a lot of talk about walls going on, many of the better Pokémon in UU are less so walls, and more so sweepers, or at least, less bulky walls more used for attacking.

 

Scizor (and to an extend Slowking, but I'm not going to argue about Slowking here), provides the tier with a reliable defensive option. Running any fire move at all threatens Scizor, so it doesn't fit ban criteria to easily wall the entire tier without difficulty. Later, I'll post every fire type move that a UU Pokémon (and some NU Pokémon) can use to counter Scizor simply to outline that while it is a class S Pokémon, it is only that, and not ban worthy.

 

Scizor in a sense is almost the fulcrum of the tier. Scizor was brought down for the purpose of improving the tier, and that's what it did. Why are we trying to fix what isn't broken?

 

Also, can someone PM me the usage stats for UU Pokémon? Thank you in advance.

 

you can find them at the top of comp alley "official tier lists and usage statistics"

[Toast]

I can only see scizor as a positive, the tier is just full of walls with instant recovery, forces them to give up coverage. Banning an offensive poke never makes a tier less wally, makes it way easier for them to do so . Isnt that what the problem with uu is?

i agree with bowser here tbh, with scizor gone cradily can pretty much shit on a lot of things, either curse or toxic or whatever, which makes the tier a lot more wally than it is. yes, things will have to run hp fire more often but isn't that what adapting to the meta is? scizor is definitely a strong poke so i don't see why its necessarily a bad thing to run hp fire or whatever.

[BurntZebra]

i agree with bowser here tbh, with scizor gone cradily can pretty much shit on a lot of things, either curse or toxic or whatever, which makes the tier a lot more wally than it is. yes, things will have to run hp fire more often but isn't that what adapting to the meta is? scizor is definitely a strong poke so i don't see why its necessarily a bad thing to run hp fire or whatever.

If something else becomes too powerful, that thing can be banned too. Rest curse cradily came to mind last week when the discussion for scizor came up. Crawdaunt becomes more powerful with one of the few dark resists being gone. The tier council does not keep pokemon in the tier to keep other pokemon from being broken. Hidden power fire is pretty much exclusively for scizor and if you haven't looked at the usage stats, the whole meta is centralized around scizor. First you have kangaskhan, a pokemon that pretty much always runs fire punch just to hit scizor and can outspeed scizor. Second is scizor, sitting at about 50% usage, meaning you pretty much see a scizor every match you spectate. Third is slowking, the only thing that really beats standard scizor sets (bulky scizors built to survive a flamethrower can easily beat slowking), otherwise slowking wouldn't be used as much, as it has issues with status and hurts to be bait for crawdaunt. Manectric is one of the few things that can actually revenge kill scizor successfully, although it can't switch in at all and will still lose to swords dance quick attack variants of scizor. Swellow can only 3hko scizor, but its the best revenge killer for manectric too, so some are forced to run it even though scizor pursuit traps it so easily. Vileplumes pretty much exclusively run hidden power fire now only to hit scizor. Altarias run flamethrower most of the time just to hit scizor. The meta is just so centralizing around scizor at the moment and it might be difficult to see when people are so used to just running 3 physical walls that can kind of take on scizor because they dedicate a whole moveslot just for scizor. 

 

With scizor gone, swellow, azumarill, granbull, zangoose, crawdaunt, haunter, exeggutor, absol, sneasel, xatu, misdreavus, jynx, and others will all be able to function much better without the fear of being pursuit trapped by scizor because they can't dedicate a whole moveslot to just beating one pokemon. 

[Albeast33]

And that is sadly where the misconception lies (@above), that there are only a relatively few checks and counters to Scizor. Welll as promised, here is a full list of realistically used moves on Pokémon that will see the comp field:

 

UU

 

Clefable- Flamethrower and Fire Blast

 

Hitmonlee- Blaze Kick

 

Kangaskhan- Fire Punch

 

Steelix- Fire Fang

 

Granbull- Fire Punch

 

Houndoom- Flamethrower and Fire Blast

 

Manectric- Flamethrower

 

Altaria- Flamethrower

 

NU (but still used in UU)

 

Crobat- Heat Wave

 

Nidoking and Nidoqueen- Fire Punch, Flamthrower and Fire Blast

 

Ninetales- Flamethrower and Fire Blast

 

Primeape- Fire Punch

 

Zangoose- Fire Punch

 

Torkoal- Flamethrower and Heatwave

 

Any of those Pokémon simply need one fire move, one slot out of the 24 available on your team, to deal with Scizor. If your check/counter to Scizor is already knocked out, that is your fault for not playing well. You cannot complain about Scizor being too difficult to knock out, not it being centralizing where this many options exist to threaten and destroy it. Its not like fire moves are reserved only for Scizor either, you can still use these moves the check and counter Breloom, Vileplume, Steelix, and other Pokémon in the tier.

[Toast]

If something else becomes too powerful, that thing can be banned too. Rest curse cradily came to mind last week when the discussion for scizor came up. Crawdaunt becomes more powerful with one of the few dark resists being gone. The tier council does not keep pokemon in the tier to keep other pokemon from being broken. Hidden power fire is pretty much exclusively for scizor and if you haven't looked at the usage stats, the whole meta is centralized around scizor. First you have kangaskhan, a pokemon that pretty much always runs fire punch just to hit scizor and can outspeed scizor. Second is scizor, sitting at about 50% usage, meaning you pretty much see a scizor every match you spectate. Third is slowking, the only thing that really beats standard scizor sets (bulky scizors built to survive a flamethrower can easily beat slowking), otherwise slowking wouldn't be used as much, as it has issues with status and hurts to be bait for crawdaunt. Manectric is one of the few things that can actually revenge kill scizor successfully, although it can't switch in at all and will still lose to swords dance quick attack variants of scizor. Swellow can only 3hko scizor, but its the best revenge killer for manectric too, so some are forced to run it even though scizor pursuit traps it so easily. Vileplumes pretty much exclusively run hidden power fire now only to hit scizor. Altarias run flamethrower most of the time just to hit scizor. The meta is just so centralizing around scizor at the moment and it might be difficult to see when people are so used to just running 3 physical walls that can kind of take on scizor because they dedicate a whole moveslot just for scizor. 

 

With scizor gone, swellow, azumarill, granbull, zangoose, crawdaunt, haunter, exeggutor, absol, sneasel, xatu, misdreavus, jynx, and others will all be able to function much better without the fear of being pursuit trapped by scizor because they can't dedicate a whole moveslot to just beating one pokemon. 

i do realize that, but speculation wise, would the tier become a bit more rampant with walls once scizor is gone? the reason i say this is because of the cooloff period with bans and stuff, not sure if there are exceptions though. and i'm neither in favor or against a scizor ban, just adding some thoughts