[UU Discussion] Scizor (Banned to BL)

[Robofiend]

here is a full list of realistically used moves on Pokémon

 

Hold up. No one realistically uses fucking Nidoqueen or Torkoal. Of the other pokes you listed, 3 of them outspeed at 1 or two of them can switch in.

 

UU

 

Clefable- Flamethrower and Fire Blast

Can't switch in

 

Hitmonlee- Blaze Kick

Can't switch in

 

Kangaskhan- Fire Punch

Can't switch in but does outspeed, fails to one-shot bulky Sciz iirc

 

Steelix- Fire Fang

Fire Fang doesn't exsist yet, gg also CB Superpower

 

Granbull- Fire Punch

Can't switch in, Scizor outspeeds and checks you unless you predict correctly

 

Houndoom- Flamethrower and Fire Blast

Can't switch in

 

Manectric- Flamethrower

Can't switch in

 

Altaria- Flamethrower

Can switch in if Defensive or if on Superpower

 

 

Out of all of these pokes, two can repeatedly/reliably switch in without the risk of getting Nuked. and if they mispredict, they're done. Not to mention that SD Scizor has just as good a matchup as these pokes.

 

Any of those Pokémon simply need one fire move, one slot out of the 24 available on your team, to deal with Scizor. If your check/counter to Scizor is already knocked out, that is your fault for not playing well.

 

That is just absurd. I already pointed out that the only way Manec/Doom/Hitmonlee get into play is if something else dies first, meaning the only way to stop Scizor is by putting yourself at a disadvantage. If you had watched or played any UU battles whatsoever you wouldn't be saying this, because most teams have between 2-3 Fire attackers

 

You cannot complain about Scizor being too difficult to knock out, not it being centralizing where this many options exist to threaten and destroy it. Its not like fire moves are reserved only for Scizor either, you can still use these moves the check and counter Breloom, Vileplume, Steelix, and other Pokémon in the tier.

 

Sorry but you're just terribly wrong about a lot of things here (like Flame Clefable, Steelix, Hounddom being able to do anything to Scizor or even thinking that they can switch in) and it's clouding your judgement as to how good Scizor actually is.

[BurntZebra]

And that is sadly where the misconception lies (@above), that there are only a relatively few checks and counters to Scizor. Welll as promised, here is a full list of realistically used moves on Pokémon that will see the comp field:

 

UU

 

Clefable- Flamethrower and Fire Blast

 

Hitmonlee- Blaze Kick

 

Kangaskhan- Fire Punch

 

Steelix- Fire Fang

 

Granbull- Fire Punch

 

Houndoom- Flamethrower and Fire Blast

 

Manectric- Flamethrower

 

Altaria- Flamethrower

 

NU (but still used in UU)

 

Crobat- Heat Wave

 

Nidoking and Nidoqueen- Fire Punch, Flamthrower and Fire Blast

 

Ninetales- Flamethrower and Fire Blast

 

Primeape- Fire Punch

 

Zangoose- Fire Punch

 

Torkoal- Flamethrower and Heatwave

 

Any of those Pokémon simply need one fire move, one slot out of the 24 available on your team, to deal with Scizor. If your check/counter to Scizor is already knocked out, that is your fault for not playing well. You cannot complain about Scizor being too difficult to knock out, not it being centralizing where this many options exist to threaten and destroy it. Its not like fire moves are reserved only for Scizor either, you can still use these moves the check and counter Breloom, Vileplume, Steelix, and other Pokémon in the tier.

Well here's the problem. Scizor doesn't have to stay in vs any of those pokemon, as it can easily just switch out. Many of those pokemon can't even switch in vs cb return or superpower, so you're basically sacking one pokemon, sending in something faster than scizor that knows a fire move, and then the scizor just switches out since its not trapped. Also one fire type move per a team is no where near enough to pressure scizor enough. If you don't run hidden power fire on exeggutor or vileplume, then you might as well not even run them because scizor exists. If you don't run fire punch on kangaskhan, you just became huge scizor bait. Tons of things are forced to run a fire move just to not get pursuit trapped by scizor or get set up on by scizor. 

 

i do realize that, but speculation wise, would the tier become a bit more rampant with walls once scizor is gone? the reason i say this is because of the cooloff period with bans and stuff, not sure if there are exceptions though. and i'm neither in favor or against a scizor ban, just adding some thoughts

I don't really think so. Scizor only promotes the use of walls like hp fire exeggutor and slowking. Glalie can set up spikes to easily shred through defensive teams using the pokemon I listed before. Its not like the tier could get any more wally anyways, as the best way to deal with scizor is to run hidden power fire exeggutor+flamethrower slowking on the same team and run fire punch kangaskhan instead of some other special wall as kangaskhan is the only thing that stands a chance vs scizor. Calm minders have an actual chance at beating teams because now they're not forced to run hidden power fire to hit scizor, but can run hidden power fighting to hit clefable/houndoom/kangaskhan. Scizor could also force a ton of 50/50s in match play as if it came in vs a sweeper, even if the sweeper can kill scizor, scizor can quick attack for a quick ko, or it can pursuit in anticipation of the sweeper switching out, fearing the quick attack. Or scizor can just do a non risk pursuit if it comes in vs something like swellow return or azumarill ice punch. 

[Albeast33]

Switching has to do with the player itself, not the Pokémon. As for many of the Pokémon above I listed, all of it comes down to opportunity. I never said they were guaranteed a hit on Scizor but isn't that what competitive battling is? Making decisions based on what you have? All I'm saying is that there are many opportunities to take down Scizor if played correctly, and playing correctly is where player skill comes into play, not whether or not a Pokémon should be banned.

 

What I listed above didn't even include Hidden Power, giving an even wider array of options. The entire reason that the debate for Scizor was brought up was because of the possibility it was centralizing the tier, and as you can see above, there are more than enough options to not have to fall back on the same team over and over again.

 

As I've said numerous times before, unless someone runs Iron Defense on Scizor (rarely seen), any physical fire type move will knock it out, or any special fire type move. One fire move out of 24 move slots on your team is not centralizing.

[DaftCoolio]

Switching has to do with the player itself, not the Pokémon. As for many of the Pokémon above I listed, all of it comes down to opportunity. I never said they were guaranteed a hit on Scizor but isn't that what competitive battling is? Making decisions based on what you have? All I'm saying is that there are many opportunities to take down Scizor if played correctly, and playing correctly is where player skill comes into play, not whether or not a Pokémon should be banned.

 

What I listed above didn't even include Hidden Power, giving an even wider array of options. The entire reason that the debate for Scizor was brought up was because of the possibility it was centralizing the tier, and as you can see above, there are more than enough options to not have to fall back on the same team over and over again.

 

As I've said numerous times before, unless someone runs Iron Defense on Scizor (rarely seen), any physical fire type move will knock it out, or any special fire type move. One fire move out of 24 move slots on your team is not centralizing.

As many of us have told you numerous times those aren't switch ins. You can't just switch in any old pokemon with a fire type move and magically survive.

 

Even then not all fire type moves will knock it out.

0 Atk Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 112-132 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it isn't even a iron defense scizor 

[Albeast33]

I'm not saying they will magically survive. The player needs to make predictions, or decide whether a switch is worth it or just stick with a revenge kill. You can't ban a Pokémon for encouraging that aspect of the game.

[DaftCoolio]

I'm not saying they will magically survive. The player needs to make predictions, or decide whether a switch is worth it or just stick with a revenge kill. You can't ban a Pokémon for encouraging that aspect of the game.

You can't just revenge kill. Scizor can just switch out and you can't sack something every time Scizor comes in so you can bring in your Manectric and hope they are stupid enough to leave in Scizor for the flamethrower.

[Robofiend]

Switching has to do with the player itself, not the Pokémon. As for many of the Pokémon above I listed, all of it comes down to opportunity. 

 

Part of the problem is that you're not considering the risk/reward of Scizor: while it is easy to take it down by predicting correctly, failed predicts often cost your team a lot. For instance, a Clefable fishing for a Flamethrower on the switch makes itself vulnerable, especially if it's at < 60% because it can let in Kangaskhan, Slowking or Altaria without a way to retaliate outside of Toxic. The same goes for any pokemon that comes in on Scizor outside of Slowking: while they *can* predict correctly to get in play and scare you out, a mispredict costs the player trying to counter Scizor a lot while a misplay on Scizor's part costs the Scizor user not very much, since all of Scizor's revenge killers and counters are easily stopped.

 

I never said they were guaranteed a hit on Scizor but isn't that what competitive battling is? Making decisions based on what you have? All I'm saying is that there are many opportunities to take down Scizor if played correctly, and playing correctly is where player skill comes into play, not whether or not a Pokémon should be banned.

 

I'm not sure what you think competitive battling is, but the main problem is that players don't have "enough" to counter Scizor that well outside of slapping Slowking on their team and saying "yeah seems legit". I'd really like to hear some feasible opportunities where a player "could take down Scizor". I say that in an entirely un-snarky way because so far no one else has been able to give examples of viable pokemon that can switch in on Scizor without fear and proceed to beat it. If you ask me, competitive battling is all about players having numerous ways to deal with threats, each with benefits toward the purpose of the team and downsides that make it rely on teammates for support. Scizor doesn't seem to fit into that picture because there aren't many real downsides to using it as far as I can see.

[Albeast33]

Switching a Pokémon is up to the players themselves. Of course someone would switch Scizor out when it is threatened, but that's an easy prediction to make. I'm not saying all of these are surefire options, but nevertheless they are options.

 

Competitive battling won't always have surefire options to counter Pokémon, but that's were player skill comes into play.

[DaftCoolio]

player skill of deciding which pokemon to sack first

Edited December 21, 2015 by DaftCoolio

[Robofiend]

I'm not sure where else to put this, but I'd like to ask UU players for their general satisfaction with the tier.

 

I watched a lot of the tournament matches today and was generally really entertained. Scizor was strong but it didn't regularly seem super threatening and there were a lot of Exeggs and Slowkings around to check it. Kanga was everywhere, which was a little troubling, but overall it seemed like the better players won (barring a few chokes) and that there was a decent amount of variety in teams to make up for some of the more predictable elements.

 

Particularly, it seemed like Scizor filled a much needed niche in checking Altaria, Crawdaunt and some other wall-y pokemon without having the ability to sweep teams without good play and proper support. Slowking was relatively uncommon, to the point where I feel like it's kind of underused, especially considering how effective the Fight/Fire combo is at hitting a lot of common pokemon. Overall, what I'm afraid of is that banning Scizor outright would mess with the tier dynamics a lot, making sweepers like Swellow, Crawdaunt or Altaria super centralizing, although I'm not sure that would happen.

 

Any thoughts on a test ban?

[DaftCoolio]

I think Scizor is the sort of pokemon you may not see do a lot but behind the scenes its applying a lot of pressure and given the chance it can really blow your team apart. I found myself having to switch in houndoom on sword dances (eaz reads) because I didnt have anything that could take the hit. 

[DoubleJ]

Not sure what tournament you were at Robofiend, but I saw a Slowking in well over 50% of the matches I watched and played in. Saying it's underused in the underused tier is kind of a stretch. Right now though, Kangaskhan is really freaking easy to use. With its decent bulk, above average speed, and ability, it can punish both Scizor and Slowking with Fire Punch and Toxic-stall respectively. It can also spread decent-ish damage across the board with an ever dangerous STAB Normal-attack. Outside of that, I don't really know what to say. These three pokemon are dominating the tier, more so than I'd like, but it's a scary balance to play with.

Scizor is almost a necessity to provide coverage against Swellow and actually hurt it with Pursuit (no other normal resist in UU can use Pursuit, outside of Bannette, RIP). It can also patch up the power of normal-type attacks that can tear through the tier. Yes Scizor is scary, but right now, with the pressure of both Kangaskhan offensively and Slowking defensively, it really can only play hit and run with CB. Bulky Swords Dance variants have a tough time doing really anything with how skillful the community has gotten in stopping Scizor effectively. 

 

Slowking is still doing what Slowking does and that's stall the entire tier. My fully invested Ninetales in the Sun was unable to bring down a 252/252+ Def Slowking with Solarbeam thanks to its impressive bulk and use of Slack-Off. 

 

Creativity is growing, but I still can't say that this is a healthy tier. It's far too centralized around the three aforementioned pokemon and its very difficult to use offense effectively. The walls just hit too freaking hard to make a risky offensive switch. We're battling a tier of defensive tanks that have cannons and a pit crew. 

[NikhilR]

Test ban Scizor, let there be more offensive threats?

Edited December 21, 2015 by NikhilR

[Albeast33]

Test ban Scizor, let there be more offensive threats?

 

I actually think we should consider moving a few OU Pokémon down for a test trial. DoubleJ makes a good point on how although the UU meta revolves around these three Pokémon, its a necessary core in order to keep the rest of the tier in check. We can't diversify the tier by moving any Pokémon up, so why don't we try it by moving a few Pokémon down. Lets see which OU Pokémon have low usage and can counter Scizor, or any of the necessary Pokémon.  

[BurntZebra]

I actually think we should consider moving a few OU Pokémon down for a test trial. DoubleJ makes a good point on how although the UU meta revolves around these three Pokémon, its a necessary core in order to keep the rest of the tier in check. We can't diversify the tier by moving any Pokémon up, so why don't we try it by moving a few Pokémon down. Lets see which OU Pokémon have low usage and can counter Scizor, or any of the necessary Pokémon.

With a usage based system, only BL Pokemon can be brought down, not regular OU Pokemon. The other issue with this is it usually centralizes the meta around the formerly BL Pokemon (see charizard, rhydon, sceptile metas). At best, the now centralizing Pokemon will just be replaced by the new BL Pokemon. Also, the ideology that "you don't bring something down to check something that is broken" applies here too.

[Robofiend]

Not sure what tournament you were at Robofiend, but I saw a Slowking in well over 50% of the matches I watched and played in.

 

I'll bet you $100k Slowking's use is < 50% when usage comes out for this tourney 

Edited December 21, 2015 by Robofiend

[Albeast33]

With a usage based system, only BL Pokemon can be brought down, not regular OU Pokemon. The other issue with this is it usually centralizes the meta around the formerly BL Pokemon (see charizard, rhydon, sceptile metas). At best, the now centralizing Pokemon will just be replaced by the new BL Pokemon. Also, the ideology that "you don't bring something down to check something that is broken" applies here too.

 

Thank you for catching that, I meant BL.

 

At this point, at least until gen 4 is introduced (not going to cry about it, just making a statement), the UU tier is essentially Pokémon that were too good for NU, but wouldn't stand a chance against OU Pokémon. UU lacks a variety of options because of this, and by taking out more Pokémon from UU, we are making our already limited option quite thin. The UU tier is a delicate imbalance if anything, and although I understand why people are pushing for Scizor and Slowking bans, by doing this, we further centralize the UU meta on what's left, and that isn't a lot.  

 

I feel that issue does not rely on Scizor itself, but the lack of variety in the tier. The tier needs to have more usable Pokémon injected into it, and if it can't happen through tier changes, then the only thing UU can do is hang tight on it's current structure until we get an injection of new Pokémon.

[Gunthug]

Thank you for catching that, I meant BL.

 

At this point, at least until gen 4 is introduced (not going to cry about it, just making a statement), the UU tier is essentially Pokémon that were too good for NU, but wouldn't stand a chance against OU Pokémon. UU lacks a variety of options because of this, and by taking out more Pokémon from UU, we are making our already limited option quite thin. The UU tier is a delicate imbalance if anything, and although I understand why people are pushing for Scizor and Slowking bans, by doing this, we further centralize the UU meta on what's left, and that isn't a lot.  

 

I feel that issue does not rely on Scizor itself, but the lack of variety in the tier. The tier needs to have more usable Pokémon injected into it, and if it can't happen through tier changes, then the only thing UU can do is hang tight on it's current structure until we get an injection of new Pokémon.

Again, this just isn't true (I know you said essentially, but when you start your argument with an incorrect statement, we can't realy put a lot of stock into what follows). UU isn't pokemon that were too good for NU - thats BL2. UU is just pokemon that are used in UU enough to warrant a stay there, but aren't used enough to be OU.

 

I don't know how long you've been around, but before the phys/special split and hoenn, we had what many would call a very balanced UU tier. Now we actually have more pokemon to work with, and yet many are saying the tier is in disarray (personally I don't agree with this but i'll defer to those who spectate more UU matches than I do).

 

I personally can't stand the argument that banning will lead to a thinning of options in a tier. That's a really lazy argument imo, and it's also completely baseless. As it stands, scizor is a fantastic wallbreaker - but with scizor gone, other pokemon will step in to fill that role that otherwise may not see much usage in UU. Will those pokemon be able to fill the same role as effectively as scizor? That remains to be seen - but if scizor is performing its role TOO well then that's a good thing.

[Albeast33]

My argument here is that even though it performs it's duty as a wall to an exceptional level that some would call too well, it can still be exploited. It's offense unless given to time to set up is situational. That set up time isn't there as soon as any fire move comes into play. Scizor functions best as a class S Pokémon in UU, and nowhere else.

[DaftCoolio]

My argument here is that even though it performs it's duty as a wall to an exceptional level that some would call too well, it can still be exploited. It's offense unless given to time to set up is situational. That set up time isn't there as soon as any fire move comes into play. Scizor functions best as a class S Pokémon in UU, and nowhere else.

lmao wot?

 

people dont even run it as a wall. people can run cb scizor so it doesn't need to set up. even if they run sword dance they don't have to and attack when you switch in your fragile faster pokemon with a fire move

[Albeast33]

CB Scizors are easily countered will the appropriate type wall. Any CB Pokémon is countered with the proper type wall. That's not an argument.

[DaftCoolio]

CB Scizors are easily countered will the appropriate type wall. Any CB Pokémon is countered with the proper type wall. That's not an argument.

please tell that to dragonite and salamence and rhydon and dodrio and machamp and fearow and ttar (shout outs to gunt)

Edited December 22, 2015 by DaftCoolio

[Gunthug]

please tell that to dragonite and salamence and rhydon and dodrio and machamp and fearow

dont forget ttar

[Albeast33]

please tell that to dragonite and salamence and rhydon and dodrio and machamp and fearow and ttar (shout outs to gunt)

 

Ok, maybe not ever Pokémon, but in the case of Scizor, using a CB makes Scizor's situational offense even more limited.

[DrCraig]

Ok, maybe not ever Pokémon, but in the case of Scizor, using a CB makes Scizor's situational offense even more limited.

Not too limited when you can trap most of the offensive meta while doing heavy damage on a lot of switch ins. Scizor's coverage isn't anything fancy, but switching to something expecting a return could give you a superpower to the face or vice versa. CB Scizor and easily countered really don't fit together well.

 

Unless[spoiler][spoiler]inb4 thief[/spoiler][/spoiler]

 

Between Slowking, Scizor and Kangakhan being all over the place and causing all sorts of controversy in here, it was proposed we go about doing some test bans. There's too many mixed opinions and uncertainty.

Edited December 22, 2015 by DrCraig