[UU Discussion] Scizor (Banned to BL)

[DrCraig]

 

Scizor is essentially becoming a suspected problem along with Slowking. Scizors usage is seeming to directly correspond with Slowkings usage and its clear why. Scizor has become a staple to UU teams as it has great defensive typing along with a great offensive movepool which only few can stop. Slowking is the best counter for Scizor, followed by Exeguttor. There really are not enough viable counters for Scizor, but nonetheless there are many checks for Scizor. Scizor 4x weakness to fire has been adapted to heavily as HP Fire can be found on many walls along with other fire moves.

 

Moves such as Steel Wing, Return, Superpower, Pursuit, Quick Attack, Morning Sun and Sword Dance give a lot of versatility and coverage to Scizor. It is a revenge killer for Swellow by Pursuit trapping it. Steel in general is a decent attacking type being resisted by Water and Steel BUT it is only super effective against the Ice and Rock. The Steel type while not great for attacking does cover Flying/Rock weaknesses and gives it resistances to Normal, Ice, Bug, Steel, Grass, Psychic and Dragon.

 

The council would like input on the community's take on Scizor. Is Scizor's  offense causing the UU tier to be centralized around it? Is Scizor's offense and defense together limiting offensive play?  Does the problem lie elsewhere?

 

Choice Band
Item: Choice Band
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP or Speed

• Steel Wing / Return
• Superpower
• Pursuit
• Quick Attack / Return

Sword Dance
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Adamant or Jolly 
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed (117 Speed for Adamant / 128 Speed for Jolly)

• Sword Dance
• Superpower / Return
• Steel Wing / Return
• Quick Attack / Pursuit

Bulky
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP

• Sword Dance
• Return
• Steel Wing
• Morning Sun

Credit to Me, Gb and Arte

 

ignore the title fuck up

Edited December 10, 2015 by DrCraig

[Robofiend]

I think the primary concern about Scizor is that it's super centralizing. It basically punishes anything without a Fire move because otherwise you're at risk of letting it set up and take out a wall. While this isn't inherently bad (see Forretress in OU, where Fire coverage isn't necessary), the fact that Scizor doesn't have a lot of great switch ins can make prediction and play-around really difficult. 

 

I originally thought this wasn't a good idea, but Scizor as a trapper it may be contributing to the amount of stall in the tier. It's strong Pursuit, espeically when CB'd, is enough to take huge dents out of Granbull, Azumarill, Swellow and anything else that might try to run from it. 

 

My one real concern is that with Scizor gone, we'll be out another check for Crawdaunt, whose STAB will be unresisted and might force players to use Vileplume to counter CB Crunch. At the expense of basically getting swept. At that point, losing two offensive pokes might be undesirable because of how much harder it will be to check Kangaskhan and Slowking (not to mention the oodles of other walls this tier has).

[DoubleJ]

Crawdaunt is already scary and had very few checks. Realistically a scizor switch to crawdaunt isn't gonna happen. Poliwrath and Def Breloom are the only decent answers for lobster.

Scizor though is a great answer to swellow which otherwise has free reign over the tier without a pursuit user to take a stab and trap it. Steelix, oma, and golem are all great counters but swellow can just run and catch something else later.

Edited December 11, 2015 by DoubleJ

[BurntZebra]

Taken from tier council threads as I've pretty much stated my argument for scizor ban as well as I'm going to. 

Argument: 

Robofiend, on 06 Dec 2015 - 8:14 PM, said:

I just don't see why we'd ban Scizor first. It's an offensive pokemon (mostly) and the complaint about UU is that there's not enough offense. 

 

Counter Argument:

BurntZebra, on 06 Dec 2015 - 8:24 PM, said:

There is plenty of offense in UU. People just like to complain about stall in every tier. People even complained about stall in NU with ampharos+blastoise, even though blastoise was literally destroyed by every physical attacker. With scizor gone in UU, then pokemon like dragon dance altaria have room to shine and sweep teams. Swellow doesn't have to worry about being pursuit trapped as soon as it attacks. Azumarill and granbull don't have to worry about taking a pursuit if they get double switched on or predict wrong. Haunter becomes pretty powerful with scizor out of the picture and can beat the kangaskhan/vileplume/slowking core. Manectric doesn't get immediately revenge killed by scizor if its below 50% hp. Jynx becomes more viable with scizor out of the picture, giving it a 4th move slot instead of running hp fire, so it can run lovely kiss or some other move to take on slowking/kangaskhan. The scizor ban would be more of an unhealthy ban with offensive power as the main cause of the issues. 

 

BurntZebra, on 06 Dec 2015 - 9:15 PM, said:

It is not dominated stall by fault of the meta, moreso by the fault of the players. There are so many wallbreakers in UU that can break through defensive teams, its just that scizor prevents a lot of them from working to the fullest extent. Sunny day houndoom+exeggutor pretty much destroys every wall in UU, as houndoom is capable of ohko'ing kangaskhan and clefable with an overheat in sun, while exeggutor outspeeds the whole meta and pretty much ohkos anything that doesn't resist solarbeam or psychic. Donphan severely cripples many of the walls in our meta as scizor beats a ton of the levitating/flying pokemon within UU like dragon dance altaria, swellow, haunter, and claydol. Armaldo can really put in work as even fewer teams run a reliable rock resist, and it gets switch ins vs kangaskhan and swellow, but unfortunately is revenge killed by steel wing scizor fairly easily, or can take severe damage from pursuit if it superpowers before hand. Absol is capable of taking the vileplume/slowking/kangaskhan core on its own due to the impressive megahorn and superpower boosted by swords dance and absol's hefty base attack stat. Zangoose and granbull can both destroy stall teams due to their attack boosting moves swords dance and bulk up respectively. They both can run a choice band set also, maximizing their coverage options, but alas, scizor can make short work of both of them if they lock themselves into anything besides fire punch. The list goes on of stall breakers in UU that people are either too afraid to use due to them being more risky than walls, or they are too easily picked off by a choice band pursuit scizor. 

[KaynineXL]

I think the primary concern about Scizor is that it's super centralizing. It basically punishes anything without a Fire move because otherwise you're at risk of letting it set up and take out a wall. While this isn't inherently bad (see Forretress in OU, where Fire coverage isn't necessary), the fact that Scizor doesn't have a lot of great switch ins can make prediction and play-around really difficult. 

 

I originally thought this wasn't a good idea, but Scizor as a trapper it may be contributing to the amount of stall in the tier. It's strong Pursuit, espeically when CB'd, is enough to take huge dents out of Granbull, Azumarill, Swellow and anything else that might try to run from it. 

 

My one real concern is that with Scizor gone, we'll be out another check for Crawdaunt, whose STAB will be unresisted and might force players to use Vileplume to counter CB Crunch. At the expense of basically getting swept. At that point, losing two offensive pokes might be undesirable because of how much harder it will be to check Kangaskhan and Slowking (not to mention the oodles of other walls this tier has).

Don't think we should compare Forretress with Scizor though. Sure they both share that same unique typing but Forre has very little offensive pressure, where as Scizor has a lot. That's the reason why fire is much more popular in UU than OU for the most part.

Edited December 11, 2015 by KaynineXL

[RysPicz]

I was debating with myself a while ago about making a request for discussion thread for either Scizor or Slowking, ended up making a request for Slowking... now both of them pop out. Finally something is being done about UU.

 

I'm a bit sick still but I will elaborate and make a longer post about Sciz later on. Just for the record, I'm all up for it to disappear from UU.

[DrCraig]

I was debating with myself a while ago about making a request for discussion thread for either Scizor or Slowking, ended up making a request for Slowking... now both of them pop out. Finally something is being done about UU.

 

I'm a bit sick still but I will elaborate and make a longer post about Sciz later on. Just for the record, I'm all up for it to disappear from UU.

There has been a lot of discussion and decision making is in a tough spot. I don't know why there was no public thread. :(

[Tyrone]

Could we get some more input from the community on whether Scizor is healthy for the metagame?

[OrangeManiac]

I guess what might prevent Scizor being considered to be an offensive uber, is basically two things. Fire-moves and Slowking. It doesn't exactly sweep without effort but it centralizes the metagame just wayyy too much. Nothing switches into this reliably, after Pursuit trapping opposing Psychic/Ghost type it can spam Superpower/Double-Edge combo with basically no prediction whatsoever. In addition it's just so easy to find a situation where a CB Scizor is facing some Pokemon in a favorable situation and unless opponent makes some hero prediction, something is going to die.

 

In addition, Swords Dance set is really scary. It causes insane damage to faster Pokemon with only just +2 Quick Attack and everything slower will have to take a massive base power attack from that 130 base attack. The tier is already filled with Flamethrower Altarias, Fire Punch on every possible thing and Slowking's usage might just be that high because of Scizor. Scizor does quite many bad things to the metagame at its own, even despite it serves as a nice wallbreaker for rather defensive tier. But we don't keep broken stuff in the tier to check broken stuff. Not claiming Scizor is definitely broken here but reminding of a general guideline with tiering.

Edited December 14, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[DaftCoolio]

I feel like we are all kind of okay with Scizor getting banned. Keeping scizor just to keep swellow/crawdaunt in check isn't a valid argument, if they are broke we'll get to them next.

 

orange knows

Edited December 14, 2015 by DaftCoolio

[RysPicz]

Oshi I got so carried away with PSL I forgot about this thread. Generally I feel the same as Orange, Sciz centralizes our UU a lot, I also feel that pursuit trapping a Swellow which is one of the best killers in the tier is a big deal. Hp fire on every Plume, Exegg, adjusting ev spreads just under Scizor, carrying fire punch everywhere shows how dominant this is in our UU. I dont think that banning this will have any negative impact on our meta.

[zorth]

I agree that scizor centralizes UU way to much,   i have a plume with hp fire/slowking with flamethrower/kanga with fire punch/I even kept a wallrein with hp fire just in case lol

[Albeast33]

To all those who want to see Scizor moved up to OU... Seriously?

 

Firstly, the argument that it's too centralizing to the tier is invalid. Just because the usage of a Pokémon is high, and it has a good rating doesn't mean it needs to be banned.

 

Furthermore, Scizor is easily countered with many high usage Pokémon in UU. Flamethrower on Manectric is common, as is Houndoom with it's array of fire moves. That's not even mentioning Hidden Power Fire or any other fire type moves. You don't need to have fire moves on all your Pokémon, and therefore, a reasonable counter to Scizor can and will be found on most UU teams.

 

Secondly, Scizor's offense on this thread is being laughably overrated. It's best STAB move (Steel Wing), doesn't have reliable accuracy, it lacks any physical Bug Type STABS, making that side of Scizor useless. While Aerial Ace provides nice versatility, we're only met with a base power of 60. Brick break is an option, but most people run Superpower anyways. Superpower becomes the go to power move for Scizor, but risks lowering both Attack and Defense, and if switched in properly, can decimate Scizor's chances at winning.

 

The main argument to the paragraph above is that Scizor then has access to Swords Dance. While formidable, at the end of the day it is a set up move. Scizor is not going to spend time setting up against a threat that can take it out with a fire move, preventing it from switching in. The worst case scenario is that Scizor gets revenged killed courtesy of any fire type move and it's slow speed.

 

In essence, Scizor is great at being a wall, but it's offense at best is situational. Scizor is a tough Pokémon to deal with, but at the end of the day, it can easily be game planned for.  

 

Many people in this thread are complaining about how they need to put fire type moves on all their Pokémon to deal with Scizor, but in reality, all you need is one or two Pokémon that can outrun Scizor (easily done), or take a hit from it (once again, easy because of Scizor's situational offense).

[Gunthug]

To all those who want to see Scizor moved up to OU... Seriously?

Firstly, the argument that it's too centralizing to the tier is invalid. Just because the usage of a Pokémon is high, and it has a good rating doesn't mean it needs to be banned.

Furthermore, Scizor is easily countered with many high usage Pokémon in UU. Flamethrower on Manectric is common, as is Houndoom with it's array of fire moves. That's not even mentioning Hidden Power Fire or any other fire type moves. You don't need to have fire moves on all your Pokémon, and therefore, a reasonable counter to Scizor can and will be found on most UU teams.

Secondly, Scizor's offense on this thread is being laughably overrated. It's best STAB move (Steel Wing), doesn't have reliable accuracy, it lacks any physical Bug Type STABS, making that side of Scizor useless. While Aerial Ace provides nice versatility, we're only met with a base power of 60. Brick break is an option, but most people run Superpower anyways. Superpower becomes the go to power move for Scizor, but risks lowering both Attack and Defense, and if switched in properly, can decimate Scizor's chances at winning.

The main argument to the paragraph above is that Scizor then has access to Swords Dance. While formidable, at the end of the day it is a set up move. Scizor is not going to spend time setting up against a threat that can take it out with a fire move, preventing it from switching in. The worst case scenario is that Scizor gets revenged killed courtesy of any fire type move and it's slow speed.

In essence, Scizor is great at being a wall, but it's offense at best is situational. Scizor is a tough Pokémon to deal with, but at the end of the day, it can easily be game planned for.

Many people in this thread are complaining about how they need to put fire type moves on all their Pokémon to deal with Scizor, but in reality, all you need is one or two Pokémon that can outrun Scizor (easily done), or take a hit from it (once again, easy because of Scizor's situational offense).

First, you need to hammer down the definition of a counter v that of a check. A counter can regularly switch into scizor, and threaten it out. Manectric and houndoom are DECIMATED by return on the switch, so neither of those are counters and can likely only come in after scizor has already gotten a kill. The problem seems to be that scizor has no problem switching into play with its many resistances and immunities (dat forret typing), and once it's in play, switching something in that can handle it becomes a problem.

Second, you seem to have glossed over return, which with >100 base power and a 130 base attack on scizor provides it with excellent neutral coverage and makes withstanding scizor a real pain

[WolfgangDamien]

Ill admit Ive not too well-versed in battling to compete in OU really, but I have to question your counter on Scizor killing off Houndoom and Manetric who are both WAY faster and would kill Scizor with a single move before it could attack with RETURN.

[DoubleJ]

Ill admit Ive not too well-versed in battling to compete in OU really, but I have to question your counter on Scizor killing off Houndoom and Manetric who are both WAY faster and would kill Scizor with a single move before it could attack with RETURN.

 

It's the switch in, not the 1v1 full health scenario. A counter can easily switch into any attack Scizor can use and force it out or kill it. Manectric and Houndoom can kill Scizor, but they can't switch into all of its attacks. 

[WolfgangDamien]

That sounds an awful lot like punishing someone for being good at battling/strategy. Im not sure the entire issue is whether or not Scizor is too powerful for UU, but could it stand on it's own in OU? Without reliable STAB type moves, which is a staple in the OU tier, I feel like Scizor will be crushed and no longer a decent battler for anyone. 

[DaftCoolio]

That sounds an awful lot like punishing someone for being good at battling/strategy. Im not sure the entire issue is whether or not Scizor is too powerful for UU, but could it stand on it's own in OU? Without reliable STAB type moves, which is a staple in the OU tier, I feel like Scizor will be crushed and no longer a decent battler for anyone. 

It doesn't matter if it cant "stand on it's own" in OU, if it's deemed to strong for UU it will be banned.

[Gunthug]

That sounds an awful lot like punishing someone for being good at battling/strategy. Im not sure the entire issue is whether or not Scizor is too powerful for UU, but could it stand on it's own in OU? Without reliable STAB type moves, which is a staple in the OU tier, I feel like Scizor will be crushed and no longer a decent battler for anyone.

Luckily, we don't have to worry about that. Pokemon banned from UU go to BL(borderline), which is for Pokemon not used enough to be OU but deemed too strong for lower tiers. It doesn't matter if scizor would do well in OU - if it's too strong for UU it has to go

Edit: too slow

Edit 2: also, this will be helpful wolf. https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/ Edited December 16, 2015 by Gunthug

[WolfgangDamien]

I think I understand better, but I dont quite understand the BL tier since it isnt a playable tier in the game, how exactly does that work? Just as a standard rule everyone should be informed on? Or what?

[Robofiend]

To all those who want to see Scizor moved up to OU... Seriously?

 

Seriously

 

Firstly, the argument that it's too centralizing to the tier is invalid. Just because the usage of a Pokémon is high, and it has a good rating doesn't mean it needs to be banned.

 

Well good thing you provided an argument here. Have you noticed how EVERYTHING runs a fire move to catch it on the switch before it ruins them?

 

Furthermore, Scizor is easily countered with many high usage Pokémon in UU. Flamethrower on Manectric is common, as is Houndoom with it's array of fire moves. That's not even mentioning Hidden Power Fire or any other fire type moves. You don't need to have fire moves on all your Pokémon, and therefore, a reasonable counter to Scizor can and will be found on most UU teams.

 

Please check the definition of checks and counters

 

Secondly, Scizor's offense on this thread is being laughably overrated. It's best STAB move (Steel Wing), doesn't have reliable accuracy, it lacks any physical Bug Type STABS, making that side of Scizor useless. While Aerial Ace provides nice versatility, we're only met with a base power of 60. Brick break is an option, but most people run Superpower anyways. Superpower becomes the go to power move for Scizor, but risks lowering both Attack and Defense, and if switched in properly, can decimate Scizor's chances at winning.

 

If Scizor sets up on something the Steel Wing + Superpower combo is able to do sizeable damage to anything that switches in as a defensive check (e.g. Vileplume). If instead a player tries to stop Scizor from setting up by sending in Manectric or Houndoom either stands the risk of getting run over by Superpower.

 

The main argument to the paragraph above is that Scizor then has access to Swords Dance. While formidable, at the end of the day it is a set up move. Scizor is not going to spend time setting up against a threat that can take it out with a fire move, preventing it from switching in. The worst case scenario is that Scizor gets revenged killed courtesy of any fire type move and it's slow speed.

 

But Scizor is also effective with CB and can do more than just set up. It's most useful as a CB Pursuit user that can neuter opponents offensive cores, imo, making people just opt to run walls.

 

In essence, Scizor is great at being a wall, but it's offense at best is situational. Scizor is a tough Pokémon to deal with, but at the end of the day, it can easily be game planned for.  

 

Well I'd say it's more of a tank since it has 130 base attack and commonly does dish out some major damage against Vileplume.

 

Many people in this thread are complaining about how they need to put fire type moves on all their Pokémon to deal with Scizor, but in reality, all you need is one or two Pokémon that can outrun Scizor (easily done), or take a hit from it (once again, easy because of Scizor's situational offense).

 

But the problem is the only way these pokemon (Manec/Doom) get into play against Scizor is if they let it kill something else first because neither can repeatedly/reliably switch in.

 

Also @wolfgang, BL means "borderline" or "banlist" it's an old word that describes pokemon that are too strong for one tier but too weak to be used in the tier above very much. There's no (official) mention of it on PokeMMO but BL is a standard concept in competitive pokemon that originates from Smogon.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Robofiend

[Gunthug]

I think I understand better, but I dont quite understand the BL tier since it isnt a playable tier in the game, how exactly does that work? Just as a standard rule everyone should be informed on? Or what?

What's important to know is that there's no functional distinction between BL and OU - you're free to use anything in OU anyways, including BL, UU, and even NU pokes (but not ubers)

[Tyrone]

To all those who want to see Scizor moved up to OU... Seriously?

 

<Other text>

Thanks for contributing your opinion about Scizor.

 

I'd like to see some more people follow his example and make some points whether Scizor is centralizing for UU, whether they are in favor or against a ban.

 

Personally, I'm leaning towards a Scizor ban.

It's immune to toxic, has reliable self healing in the form of Morning Sun. The only thing it needs to fear are fire type moves.

 

I'm going to try and give some predictions what will happen in the case of a ban:

- Steelix will see increased usage (A steel type is a must in UU because of Toxic and powerful Normal Stabs)

- Pokemon will no longer run as many fire type moves. (Kangaskhan will replace Fire Punch for either Crunch or Earthquake)

- Swellow will become more of a threat. (No longer has to fear being locked into CB Return and get revengehit by CB Scizor Pursuit)

- Usage of the other most used pokemon (Kangaskhan, Vileplume and Slowking) will not alter too much.

[KingBowser]

Can only see the meta getting worse, walls can only wall easier and swellow is pretty impossible to switch in with an offensive threat. But you guys can address that later I suppose.

[RysPicz]

Hey, ban Sciz, bring back Sceptile! This could work.