Matoka Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) Implementation of a new berry system is a good idea as a merchant really does remove a feature from the game, however this is only true if the system has a few things bundled with it, In my opinion those things are: Some form of tutorialization of how combinations work, and a way to receive hints. Not only that, but hints as to how to obtain "Very XXX Seeds", I've seen that on GTL etc but I have no idea how to get them, are they from high-end berries or just a lucky roll? I have no idea because there is 0 tutorialization for this feature making it painful to use and extremely daunting, probably to everyone. The feature is reasonable to use while continuing normal gameplay, 8+ hours for 2-3 berries seems insane, It has been mentioned that this was meant to be some form of passive feature that happens in the background to supply us with berries, A background feature should not require us to water it properly for 8+ hours, especially when apparently the berries we have no way of telling will grow from our non-tutorialized seed combos require different watering habits, Am i making it take longer? I don't know, how could I until I have waited 8 hours. The feature has a way to easily get started into from the base level, It seems like this is meant to be a tier system, harvest low-level berries, combine seeds for high level berries, makes sense. The low level berries cost 30k on GTL, and the other alternatives are slowly renewable berries in berry forest or Pickup pokemon, Why can we not purchase from the flower girl the most basic berries in order to start the system? Obviously this was implemented with good intentions, however, Oran berries are 30k, based on how cheap the seed harvesting tools are I assume you expected us to be able to access berries in bulk, in short, I dont understand 3 things: Why are low tier berries so inaccessible, high tier berries make sense but not the basics? Why does it take more than 1/4 of a real life day to receive 2-3 berries? Why is there no tutorial or hints in game helping us find out what on earth to do? Can we please, please, receive some info to give the community a kick start, It feels really frustrating for a shiny new feature to be added that is so unapparent how to use correctly for fairly basic needs, I feel like the feature has failed If i end up giving up after 8 hours to go and farm berry forest for pickups since that seems like a more reasonable way. Edit; I understand this is quite an opinionated thread and you obviously, At least I hope it should be obvious, tested this before launch, however I have been trying my best to take care of some berry plants for over 9 hours now. I honestly feel really unhappy with this, I just want this to feel somewhat decent to do Edited March 25, 2016 by Matoka FuzzyRegirock, Kizhaz, aftershocker and 9 others 12 Link to comment
WeavileHunter02 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I couldn´t agree more here,I know the staff wants to give an emphasis on grinding,but this looks confusing and not very rewarding.Not only that,but I just checked and we still don´t have the berries back after a TM battle.This really needs some fixing,otherwise just put them back in saffron market,it´s frustating to rely on something like that to have important items for battles that will disappear right after you use it. Link to comment
Matoka Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Ok, This is a little silly. My plants were flowering after 9 hours, I gave them a watering and then went to sleep, because it had been -9 HOURS- and when i log in this morning, less than 8 hours sleep for me btw, I get this wonderful sight: This is ridiculous, I am meant to stay with it watering constantly for over 9 hours? Devs, please. I really like the concept of this idea but this is horrendously unfair in practice, please can we change it. At least make it so when you are logged off the water status doesn't change from wet/moist etc but the berry continues to grow. Edit: Also it is giving me this (i guess error message?) on inspection: Please explain how they were overwatered when they weren't watered at all last night, is this an error or was keeping them wet/moist too much water? Devs I am begging you please give us some info about this feature Edited March 26, 2016 by Matoka Link to comment
Munya Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 It seems as if you watered them one too many times before you went to bed leaving the soil in a flooded state by the looks of it. If the soil is wet, I'd recommend never watering it, if its moist you can water it at least once until it says its wet. I wasn't asleep for 8 hours but I did sleep for 5(i'll step away from the game for 8 and see what happens) and came back with full berry yields still following that rule. Link to comment
Matoka Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 It seems as if you watered them one too many times before you went to bed leaving the soil in a flooded state by the looks of it. If the soil is wet, I'd recommend never watering it, if its moist you can water it at least once until it says its wet. I wasn't asleep for 8 hours but I did sleep for 5(i'll step away from the game for 8 and see what happens) and came back with full berry yields still following that rule. This is incorrect, I actively checked my plants and they never reached "Flooded" I kept some of them moist and some of them wet to test the differences, I never flooded my plants. Also for people who do flood their plants how are they meant to know, why do you need to wait 9 hours to see that you have failed from flooding them 3 hours in, it literally wastes time. According to you, I looked after my berries completely fine but they died. Link to comment
EazyDog Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 1 lum in gtl for 70k , is this the future we chose? lRoyxD and Vaeldras 2 Link to comment
Changeman Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 now waste time looking for berries, we spend to get their seeds , lost time watering the plants , sleep, the next day dead plants , where is the advantage in that? Link to comment
Bishav Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I no life'd and got the full result. pls stop, it's already established that you are not the appropriate benchmark for this community. Gabool, IndigoElite and Vaeldras 3 Link to comment
Kyu Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Implementation of a new berry system is a good idea as a merchant really does remove a feature from the game, however this is only true if the system has a few things bundled with it, In my opinion those things are: Some form of tutorialization of how combinations work, and a way to receive hints. Not only that, but hints as to how to obtain "Very XXX Seeds", I've seen that on GTL etc but I have no idea how to get them, are they from high-end berries or just a lucky roll? I have no idea because there is 0 tutorialization for this feature making it painful to use and extremely daunting, probably to everyone. The feature is reasonable to use while continuing normal gameplay, 8+ hours for 2-3 berries seems insane, It has been mentioned that this was meant to be some form of passive feature that happens in the background to supply us with berries, A background feature should not require us to water it properly for 8+ hours, especially when apparently the berries we have no way of telling will grow from our non-tutorialized seed combos require different watering habits, Am i making it take longer? I don't know, how could I until I have waited 8 hours. The feature has a way to easily get started into from the base level, It seems like this is meant to be a tier system, harvest low-level berries, combine seeds for high level berries, makes sense. The low level berries cost 30k on GTL, and the other alternatives are slowly renewable berries in berry forest or Pickup pokemon, Why can we not purchase from the flower girl the most basic berries in order to start the system? Obviously this was implemented with good intentions, however, Oran berries are 30k, based on how cheap the seed harvesting tools are I assume you expected us to be able to access berries in bulk, in short, I dont understand 3 things: Why are low tier berries so inaccessible, high tier berries make sense but not the basics? Why does it take more than 1/4 of a real life day to receive 2-3 berries? Why is there no tutorial or hints in game helping us find out what on earth to do? Can we please, please, receive some info to give the community a kick start, It feels really frustrating for a shiny new feature to be added that is so unapparent how to use correctly for fairly basic needs, I feel like the feature has failed If i end up giving up after 8 hours to go and farm berry forest for pickups since that seems like a more reasonable way. Edit; I understand this is quite an opinionated thread and you obviously, At least I hope it should be obvious, tested this before launch, however I have been trying my best to take care of some berry plants for over 9 hours now. I honestly feel really unhappy with this, I just want this to feel somewhat decent to do We're working on additional info in-game to give players an idea of the water / time required for each species. We already deployed an update to fix flavors not showing up which should give you an idea how to turn your Plain seeds into 'Very' seeds. Berries will be nudged towards higher yields in the next update. Yields for each plant will now typically vary between 3-10 depending on the species. I preferred giving the seeds away for free via drops in Hoenn over forcing people to buy-in. (There are currently a few thousand of each in the world right now. Whether someone wants to sell them is apparently another matter.) There were some issues with lower tiers which had them unreasonably strict in terms of their times. There are two timers in terms of Berries; One which determines growth time, then one which determines death time after their growth is complete. Some berries' species required precision to the hour as to when to harvest them, which was a bad idea in hindsight. I've gone through and increased both the total time for some low-tier species to grow and given more lenient death timers on them. These latter two points were addressed above. If there are any other concerns please feel free to reply. Thanks Tritios 1 Link to comment
Matoka Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 We're working on additional info in-game to give players an idea of the water / time required for each species. We already deployed an update to fix flavors not showing up which should give you an idea how to turn your Plain seeds into 'Very' seeds. Berries will be nudged towards higher yields in the next update. Yields for each plant will now typically vary between 3-10 depending on the species. I preferred giving the seeds away for free via drops in Hoenn over forcing people to buy-in. (There are currently a few thousand of each in the world right now. Whether someone wants to sell them is apparently another matter.) There were some issues with lower tiers which had them unreasonably strict in terms of their times. There are two timers in terms of Berries; One which determines growth time, then one which determines death time after their growth is complete. Some berries' species required precision to the hour as to when to harvest them, which was a bad idea in hindsight. I've gone through and increased both the total time for some low-tier species to grow and given more lenient death timers on them. These latter two points were addressed above. If there are any other concerns please feel free to reply. Thanks Can I just clarify, are you telling me that you have INCREASED the time it takes for low berries to finish growing, when the fact that it takes 9 hours of watering to produce berries, Kyu, why did you feel this was neccesary, increasing leniency on death timer was all that was needed, the growth time is already pushing it a little in terms of how long it takes. some people don't play your game for 9 hours in the day. Link to comment
Kyu Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Can I just clarify, are you telling me that you have INCREASED the time it takes for low berries to finish growing, when the fact that it takes 9 hours of watering to produce berries, Kyu, why did you feel this was neccesary, increasing leniency on death timer was all that was needed, the growth time is already pushing it a little in terms of how long it takes. some people don't play your game for 9 hours in the day. Sorry, I'll clarify; I reduced the water requirements for several species and increased their overall growth times and increased intervals between death stages so that it's less maintenance but slightly more waiting. Typically we shouldn't be asking you to water more than once per 8-10 hours, and that's only with the highest maintenance species. DrCraig 1 Link to comment
Matoka Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Sorry, I'll clarify; I reduced the water requirements for several species and increased their overall growth times and increased intervals between death stages so that it's less maintenance but slightly more waiting. Typically we shouldn't be asking you to water more than once per 8-10 hours, and that's only with the highest maintenance species. So in lehmans terms: Longer time to grow berries Less watering required for low tier berries, but more fine-tuned watering for higher tier berries still More time to collect berries before they die after growth finishes Edited March 26, 2016 by Matoka Link to comment
FuzzyRegirock Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Sorry, I'll clarify; I reduced the water requirements for several species and increased their overall growth times and increased intervals between death stages so that it's less maintenance but slightly more waiting. Typically we shouldn't be asking you to water more than once per 8-10 hours, and that's only with the highest maintenance species. I still think it's fucking ridiculous how we have to wait 8-10 hours to get something we previously were able to get in 30 seconds Kouteshi and RyoOhsora 2 Link to comment
Hassy Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I still think it's fucking ridiculous how we have to wait 8-10 hours to get something we previously were able to get in 30 secondsYa they pretty much fucked up when they added the berry merchant to begin with, shouldn't never introduced berries until they had implemented farming which would of been logical. People had it way to easy and as soon as shit gets hard they start crying, it's sad. Link to comment
Kyu Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 So in lehmans terms: Longer time to grow berries Less watering required for low tier berries, but more fine-tuned watering for higher tier berries still More time to collect berries before they die after growth finishes "Longer time to grow berries" only applies to the previously 8h species, which are now 10h. I wouldn't call it fine-tuned watering for higher tier berries either; They require about half of the lower tiers because of how long they take to grow in the first place (typically a few days, but with 2-3x yields of a low-tier plant). The latter is correct but only a few species had strict timings on when you could pick them up (a few non-important Contest berries iirc). I still think it's fucking ridiculous how we have to wait 8-10 hours to get something we previously were able to get in 30 seconds Then you can abstain from the system and buy berries off the GTL for instant gratification once it gets going. I don't have any interest in keeping you all independent of each other by replacing economics with stopgap NPCs. If you don't want to play it, that's fine; I'm not trying to appeal to everyone with the berry system. Link to comment
Matoka Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 "Longer time to grow berries" only applies to the previously 8h species, which are now 10h. I wouldn't call it fine-tuned watering for higher tier berries either; They require about half of the lower tiers because of how long they take to grow in the first place (typically a few days, but with 2-3x yields of a low-tier plant). The latter is correct but only a few species had strict timings on when you could pick them up (a few non-important Contest berries iirc). Then you can abstain from the system and buy berries off the GTL for instant gratification once it gets going. I don't have any interest in keeping you all independent of each other by replacing economics with stopgap NPCs. If you don't want to play it, that's fine; I'm not trying to appeal to everyone with the berry system. Kyu, I understand that ideally people will supply enough berries for people to reliably purchase for reasonable prices, say about 1k, similar to their costs before, however, this system will have two cycles: People do not produce enough berries --> Prices increase --> People can't afford berries --> They try to do it themselves because they must People produce enough berries for price to be reasonable --> It's not profitable in terms of Time:Profit ratio --> People stop producing berries Telling people they can abstain isn't strictly true, It will be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to balance this so that profit is able to be made and that berries are available, otherwise people WILL be FORCED to grow berries, EV reducing berries will be the biggest culprit of this. Link to comment
FuzzyRegirock Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Then you can abstain from the system and buy berries off the GTL for instant gratification once it gets going. I don't have any interest in keeping you all independent of each other by replacing economics with stopgap NPCs. If you don't want to play it, that's fine; I'm not trying to appeal to everyone with the berry system.Have you seen gtl prices for these berries. Not to mention that you said you're "not trying to appeal to everyone". This system doesn't appeal to much of the pokemmo player base, (have you seen these threads) and the people that do like it have a hard time defending their arguments. I'll give this system some time to sort itself out to see what happens in the future, but for the time being I think il sit out of pokemmo for a while. Edited March 26, 2016 by FuzzyRegirock Bilburt and IndigoElite 2 Link to comment
Kyu Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Kyu, I understand that ideally people will supply enough berries for people to reliably purchase for reasonable prices, say about 1k, similar to their costs before, however, this system will have two cycles: People do not produce enough berries --> Prices increase --> People can't afford berries --> They try to do it themselves because they must People produce enough berries for price to be reasonable --> It's not profitable in terms of Time:Profit ratio --> People stop producing berries Telling people they can abstain isn't strictly true, It will be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to balance this so that profit is able to be made and that berries are available, otherwise people WILL be FORCED to grow berries, EV reducing berries will be the biggest culprit of this. I'm well aware of both the difficulty of balancing it properlly and the importance of getting it right. That's why things are being buffed to 3x their original rates a day after it's deployed (which is already reloaded on Live). The idea that people will be forced to grow anything is misleading though. Those two scenarios rely on things moving so quickly that people stop growing in the first place, and we can respond faster than this would happen provided we're paying attention. More likely scenarios are that some cunning people will corner the market and inflate/deflate consumables with massive amounts of farming or that teams will keep items within themselves while profiteers exploit lone wolves. My macroeconomics prediction skills aren't that great though. It'll be a while any of us see the entire picture of what will occur.Have you seen gtl prices for these berries. The prices for GTL berries are exactly what I'd expect a day after I've upheaved the mechanic which gives you the item and when nobody understands how to play it. I'll care more in a week after I've analyzed berry/seed counts. Link to comment
Matoka Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) I'm well aware of both the difficulty of balancing it properlly and the importance of getting it right. That's why things are being buffed to 3x their original rates a day after it's deployed (which is already reloaded on Live). The idea that people will be forced to grow anything is misleading though. Those two scenarios rely on things moving so quickly that people stop growing in the first place, and we can respond faster than this would happen provided we're paying attention. More likely scenarios are that some cunning people will corner the market and inflate/deflate consumables with massive amounts of farming or that teams will keep items within themselves while profiteers exploit lone wolves. My macroeconomics prediction skills aren't that great though. It'll be a while any of us see the entire picture of what will occur. Berries becoming a new commodity type is a good thing on paper, however, EV reduction berries are an exception to this because: They are required in bulk They have 6 varieties, all of them important Their demand will exceed production 9 times out of 10 since you need so many Compare this to everstones, A well balanced commodity on the server: Needed constantly, comparable to EV reduction berries There are no variations of everstone, one type fits all natures so the market is not split You can flexibly farm this commodity without maintenance inbetween, you can farm for 10 minutes, take a break for a day and farm for 3 hours, either way it is more constant. Berry farming requires a consistent minimum care taking period of 8 hours which is a huge commitment I honestly think that even the x3 rate will not be enough, of course everything I am saying should be taken with a pinch of salt as this is essentially Stock market prediction simulator 2016, but the clear differences between a stable, reliable, consistent, good example of a commodity in Everstones vs. a volatile, long term investment like berries that we both know will fluctuate massively make this really risky to base one of thee most ESSENTIAL items in the game for any form of competitive play's method of obtaining around. Edited March 26, 2016 by Matoka Shiigo and Arimanius 2 Link to comment
Rigamorty Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 "Hey man you wanna duel" "Sure, let me just equip some berries" "Okay see you in 10 hours" I hope to god they don't try to schedule a rematch Link to comment
Kyu Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Berries becoming a new commodity type is a good thing on paper, however, EV reduction berries are an exception to this because: They are required in bulk They have 6 varieties, all of them important Their demand will exceed production 9 times out of 10 since you need so many Compare this to everstones, A well balanced commodity on the server: Needed constantly, comparable to EV reduction berries There are no variations of everstone, one type fits all natures so the market is not split You can flexibly farm this commodity without maintenance inbetween, you can farm for 10 minutes, take a break for a day and farm for 3 hours, either way it is more constant. Berry farming requires a consistent minimum care taking period of 8 hours which is a huge commitment I honestly think that even the x3 rate will not be enough, of course everything I am saying should be taken with a pinch of salt as this is essentially Stock market prediction simulator 2016, but the clear differences between a stable, reliable, consistent, good example of a commodity in Everstones vs. a volatile, long term investment like berries that we both know will fluctuate massively make this really risky to base one of thee most ESSENTIAL items in the game for any form of competitive play's method of obtaining around. I'm not convinced on the current yields either due to the amount of berries we pruned and the general underestimations of the first release. But right now I don't have metrics in order to see how many players are participating in this continuously. When I have a better grasp on the population who farm berries, I'll be able to better address yields. Until then, I'm estimating based on a set population who are both good at time management and know everything about farming. "Hey man you wanna duel" "Sure, let me just equip some berries" "Okay see you in 10 hours" I hope to god they don't try to schedule a rematch Get your secretaries to set up your battles in a week. Link to comment
TheForumNewb Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 "Hey man you wanna duel" "Sure, let me just equip some berries" "Okay see you in 10 hours" I hope to god they don't try to schedule a rematch Berries are consumed in PVP now? o.O Link to comment
Kornelio Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) kyu plz, do not let plants to die after they growth, what happen if i plant some seeds before bed to say at 9:00 PM because i have to work early like 7:00 AM and i can't touch my PC until 4:00 PM? (as example, my hours are worse), and let's say they where well watered and they growth fine, but i could not farm them cuz work/university/anyshit in that intervale of time, they will die because i can't get out of the classroom to go and play your game? it's not fair IMO. EDIT: if you can't increase the berry yields, at least add more soils so we could farm by lots (look at my suggestion to add soils in secret bases). Edited March 26, 2016 by Kornelio Shiigo, DrCraig and BlackJovi 3 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Feels like breeding a new pokemon is altogether cheaper than buying berries to re-ev them. Arimanius, SirAlbert, LionKIng and 10 others 13 Link to comment
Matoka Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 I'm not convinced on the current yields either due to the amount of berries we pruned and the general underestimations of the first release. But right now I don't have metrics in order to see how many players are participating in this continuously. When I have a better grasp on the population who farm berries, I'll be able to better address yields. Until then, I'm estimating based on a set population who are both good at time management and know everything about farming. Get your secretaries to set up your battles in a week. Ofc you need to experiment to get the balancing of yields just right, but until then what are we meant to do about fixing EVs on pokemon? Do you want us to literally be unable to re-ev our pokemon until you guys fix the economy of berries which could take over a week to fix/stabilize and even then it will probably cost more than before? Link to comment
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