[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[Murcielago]

It really shouldn't be banned IMO.  And yes, I have had some salty loses to lax in tournies.

 

Its a top tier threat but if it is removed the meta-game will become smaller and more predictable.  As others have said, hitting lax with specs/life orb heavy hitters eventually whittles it down.  It (lax) is something you need to be prepared for, but it really isn't "too good not to use".  Other special walls like chansey become viable because everyone is too busy preparing for lax and all the sudden you entire special side is shut down with one poke.

 

We also haven't had time to let the meta evolve.  People want to say running a machamp to counter lax is insane/stupid but its really not.  I personally would like to see more pokemon become viable ie: machamp vs. restricting and limiting the metagame.

 

As far as the "move pool" argument.  Its movepool really consists of pursuit/crunch/bslam/surf/fire blast/curse/sub/rest

 

Two of those moves: surf/fireblast are only good against specific pokemon that are used to counter lax and have weaknesses to fire/water and low sp. def. stats.... the movepool really isnt that great, its just that people haven't been very creative with thier lax counters...

 

And we havn't had time to adapt yet (or at least I haven't) when something is announced that it is in review for being banned two things happen: People stop breeding that pokemon (lax in this case) people stop breeding counters to that pokemon... the amount of grind and investment it takes to make good comps is very real.  This is a big deal.  I still haven't had time to breed and ev train snorlaxes, let alone snorlax counters.  The majority of the playerbase simply hasn't had time to grind and make comps to counter lax, especially now that it is in threat of being banned.  This leads to lax seeming to be more powerful than it really is because innovation has been slowed/stopped.

 

Re "parahax":

 

It happens, but it doesn't happen all that often.  Its RNG... you get paralyzed by snorlax and then "pokemon is paralyzed and cannot move" happens 4 times in a row people remember that and complain "bann snorlax!!!!" but when your opponent gets 4 crits in a row while your attacks miss or get low rolls, no one complains and demands banns.  Its really not that bad, its just more visable.

 

TLDR: don't bann snorlax, its not uber, it adds diversity, we need time to let the meta evolve to respond to it. 

 

 

[pachima]

18 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

Its a top tier threat but if it is removed the meta-game will become smaller and more predictable.

More predictable? using trapinch for  a clean kill and expecting snorlax in 120% of the matches is predictable enough for me. 

[Murcielago]

well snorlax isn't in 120% of matches... and trapinch?  If your building teams and sacking a pokemon to revenge kill snorlax with trapinch you are building teams wrong IMO.

 

Also -

 

Snorlax in the meta makes lots of cool wall breakers more viable:  Blazakin, rhydon, swampert, etc

Edited September 5, 2016 by Murcielago

[pachima]

10 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

well snorlax isn't in 120% of matches... and trapinch?  If your building teams and sacking a pokemon to revenge kill snorlax with trapinch you are building teams wrong IMO.

First, if you consider specs to be an answer to snorlax, also consider trapinch can trap a specs thunderbolt and kill jolt/ magneton easily.

Second, trapinch traps and ohkoes not only snorlax but also chansey.

Third, if somehow the opponent has not any of those two, in some circunstances you can sacrifice a pokemon u wont need to sent full health trapinch to trap a scouted joolteon with leftovers, or magneton without life ball. Trapinch also ohkoes defensive arca this way without being ohkoed bu hit.

Lastly, quick attack banded hurts anything not tanky, and is useful for late game clean.

Trapinch is much more useful than you think.

[Murcielago]

^Wow, good info, I might have to look into that.

 

See, another viable reason not to ban snorlax :)

[Spaintakula]

1 hour ago, pachima said:

First, if you consider specs to be an answer to snorlax, also consider trapinch can trap a specs thunderbolt and kill jolt/ magneton easily.

Second, trapinch traps and ohkoes not only snorlax but also chansey.

Trapinch was used before snorlax was unbanned, it's main purpose in the beggining was mostly for chansey, so snorlax didn't really initiate Trapinch's usage.

 

1 hour ago, pachima said:

Lastly, quick attack banded hurts anything not tanky, and is useful for late game clean.

Trapinch is much more useful than you think.

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 90-107 (33 - 39.3%) -- 12.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 80-95 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 69-82 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

I can go on, I don't see how that's hurting anything not tanky. Maybe you just worded it properly and meant to say it can hurt anything that's fragile as fuck and can't take a hit from anything, let alone a banded QA.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 113-133 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

Ah, there we go, now you're right!

 

Trapinch is just a gimmick and it's useful just like any other gimmick. Best used as a surprise.

[xilias]

@Spaintacula ,Do you know what the meaning of late game is?it can be used when everything on your opponent's side is weak for a clean sweep,.

[Spaintakula]

8 hours ago, xilias said:

@Spaintacula ,Do you know what the meaning of late game is?it can be used when everything on your opponent's side is weak for a clean sweep,.

Yes, and do you know that if your opponent's side is weak to the point it can die from a trapinch's quick attack, it can die from anything else too ?!?!?!

Trapping doesn't even matter if your opponent's side is weak to a trapinch QA, come on. By the time you switch, counting you're weak, you lose the residual health and die anyway, so trapinch is literally nowhere near a top of the line lategame sweeper.

 

^That sounded harsh, don't take it the wrong way, I'm a good person, I just sound angry :(

Edited September 6, 2016 by Spaintakula

[Xatu]

So with the september tier update and the overwhelming h8 for snorlax can we pretty much get hyped for it reban? 

[pachima]

12 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

Yes, and do you know that if your opponent's side is weak to the point it can die from a trapinch's quick attack, it can die from anything else too ?!?!?!

I was just stating something it can do, I never said it was a good user for late game clean. 

Anyway, this sentence is wrong. If you dont have speed enough, no matter the hp of ur opponent u wont kill it if he kills u first. QA has priority.

Anyway, if in my text about trapinch u only read about QA ur fault, not mine. I gave some more reasons for it.

[Spaintakula]

Just now, pachima said:

I was just stating something it can do, I never said it was a good user for late game clean. 

Anyway, this sentence is wrong. If you dont have speed enough, no matter the hp of ur opponent u wont kill it if he kills u first. QA has priority.

Anyway, if in my text about trapinch u only read about QA ur fault, not mine. I gave some more reasons for it.

Nah, I addressed your statement that kinda shows you think trapinch's usage and innovativity.

Also, not sure if you know what a late game sweeper is, but it surely doesn't go in the category of "No matter the hp of ur opponent u wont kill it unless he kills u first". Late game sweepers are built to be able to remove that last chunk of hp you say can't be removed just because you don't have priority. Some mons have naturally high speed, so priority isn't needed that bad and they can be able to remove the before-mentioned weakened walls/mons/whatever.

[Frag]

I never thought the day would come but, im done, lost twice to randoms due poope*d parahax, the momentum it gives is just too much. can we just ban this shit already,

Edited September 9, 2016 by Frag

[DoubleJ]

13 minutes ago, Frag said:

I never thought the day would come but, im done, lost twice to randoms due poope*d parahax, the momentum it gives is just too much. can we just ban this shit already,

Let's just make a decision before the PSL starts in a couple weeks. If you ban it, then ok we get a sort of new meta. If not well we keep grinding it out. 

 

Spoiler

ALTHOUGH IF WE START TO SEE BULLSHIT SUBSWAGGER JOLTS YOU BETTER FUCKING BAN THE LAX

EDIT: also, @gbwead go sign up for PSL

Edited September 9, 2016 by DoubleJ

[BlackJovi]

can we ban swagger too 

[gbwead]

Swagger is getting so much used right now. It is not looking good. I guess the best way to counter skilless Snorlax is to use skilless strategies. Oh wait, that doesn't make any sense ^^

[BlackJovi]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Swagger is getting so much used right now. It is not looking good. I guess the best way to counter skilless Snorlax is to use skilless strategies. Oh wait, that doesn't make any sense ^^

its basically people praying for hax, the sad thing is that it works on most cases so it is kinda sad

[gbwead]

Just now, BlackJovi said:

its basically people praying for hax, the sad thing is that it works on most cases so it is kinda sad

Is it possible to say that Swag Jolteon only exists and is only used for Snorlax? If that is the case, there is truly nothing more unhealthy than that xD

[BlackJovi]

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Is it possible to say that Swag Jolteon only exists and is only used for Snorlax? If that is the case, there is truly nothing more unhealthy than that xD

yeah basically that, also one of the few counters is gardevoir then there are people that just run jolteon + doom to get the Win 

E: it only works vs snorlax because it has a high attack base, doesn't work vs any of the other sp. def walls (chansey, gardevoir, venusaur, P2) etc 

Edited September 9, 2016 by BlackJovi

[majenter]

I know this is a bit off topic but can someone remind me why dragonite is ubers? ,why in smogon its borderline (BL)?

 

thanks

[NikhilR]

17 minutes ago, majenter said:

I know this is a bit off topic but can someone remind me why dragonite is ubers? ,why in smogon its borderline (BL)?

 

thanks

Because we don't have access to a lot of the gen4 pokemon (some can run scarf sets to revenge kill (hp ice rotom, infernape & heatran) while others include steel resists like Empoleon, Jirachi, Heatran, Lucario), lack of berries which half supereffective damages,  priority moves like ice shard + bullet punch and stealth rocks. 

 

The only viable steel resists we have are Skarmory + Metagross and so you can see how this would be a problem.

Edited September 9, 2016 by NikhilR

[majenter]

4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Because we don't have access to a lot of the gen4 pokemon (some can run scarf sets to revenge kill (hp ice rotom, infernape & heatran) while others include steel resists like Empoleon, Jirachi, Heatran, Lucario), lack of berries which half supereffective damages,  priority moves like ice shard + bullet punch and stealth rocks. 

 

The only viable steel resists we have are Skarmory + Metagross and so you can see how this would be a problem.

but dragonite is BL in gen3 smogon not gen 4:

http://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/dragonite/

[londark]

1 minute ago, majenter said:

but dragonite is BL in gen3 smogon not gen 4:

http://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/dragonite/

Pokemmo follows most future gens mechanics, like physical/special split, making dragonite more powerful that what it is in Gen 3

[NikhilR]

2 minutes ago, majenter said:

but dragonite is BL in gen3 smogon not gen 4:

http://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/dragonite/

We have gen 3 pokemon but post gen 4 mechanics, which makes moves like Dragon Claw (physical) on Dnite more spammable compared to hp flying (gen 3 physical). Also lack of legendaries like Zapdos + Suicune.

Edited September 9, 2016 by NikhilR

[majenter]

ah I see thanks

[SpartacusGD]

why did snorlax get unbanned? 

-because specs, life ball sp atkers are pretty hard to handle almost too strong.

 

if no snorlax, how do you stop growth jolt from rampaging? swiftcb (revenge kill only cause cant switch), p2, gard

 

cm lifeball espeon/zam + trapinch? swiftcb(revenge kill only cause cant switch) only i guess

 

as you see there isnt much of a reliable way to stop this sp atkers other than revenge killing or risk 50/50s, haters will prolly say they cant switch in as much as snorlax. but its pretty easy they can switch against any wall. why are tc struggling to nake a decision i bet cause they see this too.