[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[Fugu]

24 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

So dense. Chansey also has 445 effective stats if you look at it that way.

--- Because clearly Chansey is a very balanced pokemon that everyone enjoys fighting against and that nobody ever plays because it's not strong enough.

 

24 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

 

Every starter has 530~ effective stats, seeing how most can run a mixed set (zard/blaz/pert/scept/venu/whatever)

 

Let's ban the starters too. And everything else with effective stats above 445 because that's the standard it seems. I didn't even bother reading the rest of it, just thought a nice remark like this should do.

 

--- In case you didn't notice, I listed 4 different "scales" to judge the pokemon with. Starters have good versatile stats in general, and can make use of them because of such versatiity. They also have good movesets in general. They don't however have snorlax's abilities, nor its typing (and they don't have 160 base HP with two other stats in the 100+). Despite that, many starter pokemons are in the overused category. Coincidence? Snorlax hits all four of those points on the strong side.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Sorry, I know I said I didn't read, but I actually bothered to read more and it's funny.

Yes, rest is what pushes snorlax over the top more than body slam. Next on the ban list anything that learns rest. 

 

--- Rest is what glues snorlax's curselax's tanking together. Rest is far more important on snorlax than bodyslam is. Same goes for curse. Bodyslam is replaceable, curse and rest not so much.

 

24 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

^Tf are you on about here? This isn't gen 1 and holy shit are you wrong buddy. Snorlax's total stats number in gen1 was 430. Look up some other pokemon from there and you'll see how most of them are currently in NU or UU, so I really don't see how you're making any sense with this?!? Totally unrelated and sad attempt at making a point.

 

--- Going from the wiki page (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Snorlax_(Pokémon)) which usually lists the changes, snorlax's base stat was not 430 in gen 1. It isn't gen 1, no, but the pokemon hasn't changed since then stat wise either. That thing was built to be a mini-boss / semi-legendary poke, it doesn't have regular stats, that's what I'm on here. The fact you can't understand the point made does not make my explanations and analysis "sad", it just means you can't read or haven't read.

 

-------------------------------

 

Examples of pokemons with stats / abilities mismatch (scale heavily leaning towards one side):

 

Slaking is the obvious "stats are high, abilities is shit" example.

Shedinja is the obvious "stats are shit, abilities is insane" example.

 

Then you have varying degrees between these two extremes. Some that I can think of at the moment would be

 

Venomoth has fairly bad stats, with fairly good abilities. (shield dust, wonderskin, tinted lens being all good abilities)

Muk has fairly good stats, with fairly bad abilities (poison touch, stench, sticky hold.. with sticky hold being the "best" by default)

Most starters are good examples of good stats and "meh" abilities (with some exceptions)

Arbok and Seviper are two examples of pretty bad stats with good abilities.

 

Though, as I pointed out before, sometimes it can be other factors keeping some pokes in check. The more points these pokemons have (typing, movepool, etc.) the more likely they are to be in overused or uber. There are also pokemons that fail at everything...

[Spaintakula]

15 minutes ago, Fugu said:

your stuff

Again, how is anything you said about gen1 "intentions" useful here. Every response I gave related to gen1 was strictly competitive and didn't include "snorlax was a miniboss" or any other bs like that. Just because the pokemon was somewhat Unique, does not give any well-constructed argument to this discussion whatsoever. Could I just go on and say eevee is a legendary because there was only one of it too? Don't know why you'd use that to prove a point, it's not me not knowing, it's you actually taking some fun trivia like this and trying to make it into a serious comment.

 

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pokémon_by_base_stats_(Generation_I)

I suggest you take a look at this, it's the base stats that are actually important in competitive play related to gen1. Gen 1 had special atk/def as one stat, therefore, in gen1, snorlax had a different, smaller base stat total.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Spaintakula

[pachima]

Can we stick to the discussion itself. Or is it that there aren´t arguments enough for you to work around in order to convince us it is not banable?

[SpartacusGD]

@gbwead im dissapointed, please dint tell me you are serious about heracross beats aclops like gor sure calling it "bait" is kinda misleading for ban supporters. rip spin block? seriously? toss isnt good enough? from an ex staller like you, im pretty sure that you realize clops have pressure which can stall starmie for forever until it becomes useless forever and blaziken hates taking 2 seismic tosses considering its using life ball with its low hp + it cant be 1hkoed. snorlax have wide movepool yes but it goes down to team building if you can counter can it. it just makes up

for its counters like gyarados using tbolt just for cloysters or they are forever walled, flygons using fireblast and stuff idk where all the hate is coming from. 

 

@pachima well snorlax ia 3hkoed by specs and needs to rest sooner  or later. "no wish / softboiled" or snorlax can be beaten by swagger jolt while blissey just flat out walls any sp atker, any set while still being able to have moves that prevents physical pokes from coming in

[Fugu]

6 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Again, how is anything you said about gen1 "intentions" useful here. Every response I gave related to gen1 was strictly competitive and didn't include "snorlax was a miniboss" or any other bs like that. Just because the pokemon was somewhat Unique, does not give any well-constructed argument to this discussion whatsoever. Could I just go on and say eevee is a legendary because there was only one of it too? Don't know why you'd use that to prove a point, it's not me not knowing, it's you actually taking some fun trivia like this and trying to make it into a serious comment.

--- Me saying that snorlax does not have regular stats because it was intended to be a mini-boss (thus stronger than regular encounter mons) holds up as an argument when trying to point out exactly that Snorlax stats are above average because it was a made a mini-boss (!!!) AND even legendary-like. It's like me saying "the that shape is round because the guy was trying to draw a circle" and you arguing that the artist trying to draw a circle has nothing to do with the shape being round. The intention of making this dude a semi-legendary / mini-boss is very relevant and not just a piece of trivia when trying to point out that this guy's stats are high.

 

** Eevee was not a mini-boss in the game. The intentions behind Eevee was for them to sell the trade link thing, so that they get all of the eeveelutions which were designed to be strong enough stat wise to be desired by the players. As a result of this designer choice, it is not a surprise than many of the Eeeveelutions are overused (and/or often used in overused battles).

 

6 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pokémon_by_base_stats_(Generation_I)

I suggest you take a look at this, it's the base stats that are actually important in competitive play related to gen1. Gen 1 had special atk/def as one stat, therefore, in gen1, snorlax had a different, smaller base stat total. So you're wrong there too.

And next time, don't send a link that's updated when you're talking about a metagame that's probably older than you.

True, I forgot about the core stat changes, but that doesn't change that I remember snorlax being freaking strong in that gen as well. It was weak to fighting moves, but had 110 defense to fend them off instead of having high special def like he does now.

 

Also as a fun observation, snorlax's pokemon number lists it right before the legendary birds.

 

I'm nearing 30 years old.

[pachima]

9 minutes ago, SpartacusGD said:

@gbwead im dissapointed, please dint tell me you are serious about heracross beats aclops like gor sure calling it "bait" is kinda misleading for ban supporters. rip spin block? seriously? toss isnt good enough? from an ex staller like you, im pretty sure that you realize clops have pressure which can stall starmie for forever until it becomes useless forever and blaziken hates taking 2 seismic tosses considering its using life ball with its low hp + it cant be 1hkoed. snorlax have wide movepool yes but it goes down to team building if you can counter can it. it just makes up

for its counters like gyarados using tbolt just for cloysters or they are forever walled, flygons using fireblast and stuff idk where all the hate is coming from. 

 

@pachima well snorlax ia 3hkoed by specs and needs to rest sooner  or later. "no wish / softboiled" or snorlax can be beaten by swagger jolt while blissey just flat out walls any sp atker, any set while still being able to have moves that prevents physical pokes from coming in

Of course snorlax has to rest eventually. However, specs are easily counterable. But thats not discuss specs itself. You 3hko me, ok u hit me once, next turn u have to switch. Question, you switch to who?

Next point, if your option is a swagger jolteon to beat snorlax that itself tells a lot about snorlax´s strength in OU.

[NikhilR]

18 minutes ago, SpartacusGD said:

 

@pachima well snorlax ia 3hkoed by specs and needs to rest sooner  or later. "no wish / softboiled" or snorlax can be beaten by swagger jolt while blissey just flat out walls any sp atker, any set while still being able to have moves that prevents physical pokes from coming in

That part isn't entirely true. It depends on what Bliss' status move is and whether it is CM set. I've beaten Chanseys with a Wish / CM / Taunt / Psy Gard, non toxic less Bliss / Chanseys lose to 252 hp / speed growth jolteon and CM slowbro, while toxic Bliss loses to Growth Venusaur and Chansey loses to Haunter as well, which was quite common earlier. The thing is none of those spakers can actually beat Snorlax because you can't run a set up special sweeper vs Lax, you need specs, similarly you can't beat Chansey / Bliss with a specs special attacker. The difference between Lax and the other fat blobs is that the latter don't have any sort of offensive pressure and you can work your way around them with wish+cleric support to heal your switch ins, but Lax just outright shuts that down.

Edited September 4, 2016 by NikhilR

[Spaintakula]

1 minute ago, Fugu said:

--- Me saying that snorlax does not have regular stats because it was intended to be a mini-boss (thus stronger than regular encounter mons) holds up as an argument when trying to point out exactly that Snorlax stats are above average because it was a made a mini-boss (!!!) AND even legendary-like. It's like me saying "the that shape is round because the guy was trying to draw a circle" and you arguing that the artist trying to draw a circle has nothing to do with the shape being round. The intention of making this dude a semi-legendary / mini-boss is very relevant and not just a piece of trivia when trying to point out that this guy's stats are high.

 

** Eevee was not a mini-boss in the game. The intentions behind Eevee was for them to sell the trade link thing, so that they get all of the eeveelutions which were designed to be strong enough stat wise to be desired by the players. As a result of this designer choice, it is not a surprise than many of the Eeeveelutions are overused (and/or often used in overused battles).

 

True, I forgot about the core stat changes, but that doesn't change that I remember snorlax being freaking strong in that gen as well. It was weak to fighting moves, but had 110 defense to fend them off instead of having high special def like he does now.

 

Also as a fun observation, snorlax's pokemon number lists it right before the legendary birds.

 

I'm nearing 30 years old.

That bolded thing over there; In one game you have one eevee and one snorlax. You can get another eevee by trading, you can get another snorlax by trading. Do you understand how that works or do I need to dumb it down even more?

And I said snorlax being in mind to be considered as a "mini-boss" in gen1 has no value whatsoever here. Why? Because this is competitive discussion and trivial facts like those should never hold ground. It's just plain stupid, and shouldn't be taken as a serious comment. Ask anyone that's TC here/smogon/wherever if snorlax's ban(if one) has any benefit of the fact that it was intented as a mini-boss in a gen1 game.

Snorlax was strong in gen1, but so were 7-8 other mons in that gen. Happens with every generation of pokemon, each of the perspective gens has had it's mascot which represented the tier. What we're trying to do here is decide if snorlax is just another one of those mascots which tallies up our metagame, or is more than that and needs to be banned, and what we're not trying to do is find every single small detail that /could/ benefit just because someone thinks it should be considered so.

 

>Also as a fun observation, snorlax's pokemon number lists it right before the legendary birds.

Atleast you said fun observation now, so I'm not really gonna take it seriously, except reply with the fact that also shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Fugu]

54 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

That bolded thing over there; In one game you have one eevee and one snorlax. You can get another eevee by trading, you can get another snorlax by trading. Do you understand how that works or do I need to dumb it down even more?

In one game you get Flareon, in another you get Vaporeon, in another you get Jolteon. Back then, you needed a trade link (basically a cable) to do that. Eevee was made strong to give incentive for that trade link to be sold. Do you understand how that works or do I need to dumb it down even more? 

 

Multiple snorlax was pointless back then.

 

Quote

And I said snorlax being in mind to be considered as a "mini-boss" in gen1 has no value whatsoever here. Why? Because this is competitive discussion and trivial facts like those should never hold ground. It's just plain stupid, and shouldn't be taken as a serious comment. Ask anyone that's TC here/smogon/wherever if snorlax's ban(if one) has any benefit of the fact that it was intented as a mini-boss in a gen1 game.

* The intention behind eeveelutions to have strong stats was to sell the trade link cable to players.

* Legendary pokemons do not have strong stats because they are important to the lore of the pokemon world, they have strong stats because the intention behind them was to serve as end-game challenges for after the game is beaten. 

* The intention behind snorlax to have strong stats was to serve as a mini-boss.

 

The intentions the game designers had to design some pokemons are very important and relevant in some cases; snorlax is a good example of that. How is that difficult to understand?

 

 

Quote

Snorlax was strong in gen1, but so were 7-8 other mons in that gen. Happens with every generation of pokemon, each of the perspective gens has had it's mascot which represented the tier.

And I'm saying Snorlax is a good mascot for the uber tier (aka snorlax has nothing to do in overused), but you missed that point and the entire post in which I explained why and how he goes overboard because you didn't read the freaking thread (or well, you didn't understand what you read anyway so it wouldn't matter). Too busy playing snorlax maybe.

 

Quote

What we're trying to do here is decide if snorlax is just another one of those mascots which tallies up our metagame, or is more than that and needs to be banned

No way, I thought we were trying to make a pizza!

 

 

Just what I am doing replying to some dude who openly claims he didn't read my thread entirely and then replied anyway..?

 

 

Quote

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Fugu

[Gunthug]

9 minutes ago, Fugu said:

In one game you get Flareon, in another you get Vaporeon, in another you get Jolteon. Back then, you needed a trade link (basically a cable) to do that. Eevee was made strong to give incentive for that trade link to be sold. Do you understand how that works or do I need to dumb it down even more? 

 

Multiple snorlax was pointless back then.

 

* The intention behind eeveelutions to have strong stats was to sell the trade link cable to players.

* Legendary pokemons do not have strong stats because they are important to the lore of the pokemon world, they have strong stats because the intention behind them was to serve as end-game challenges for after the game is beaten. 

* The intention behind snorlax to have strong stats was to serve as a mini-boss.

 

The intentions the game designers had to design some pokemons are very important and relevant in some cases; snorlax is a good example of that. How is that difficult to understand?

 

 

And I'm saying Snorlax is a good mascot for the uber tier (aka snorlax has nothing to do in overused), but you missed that point and the entire post in which I explained why and how he goes overboard because you didn't read the freaking thread (or well, you didn't understand what you read anyway so it wouldn't matter). Too busy playing snorlax maybe.

 

No way, I thought we were trying to make a pizza!

 

 

Just what I am doing replying to some dude who openly claims he didn't read my thread entirely and then replied anyway..?

 

 

Sorry man, I can see that you're eager to contribute here but your arguments and reasoning for wanting snorlax banned don't really match with how things work. I'd suggest giving this a read before continuing to make posts here on comp alley:

 

Specifically, the focus of this discussion is whether Snorlax is too strong for this particular OU metagame. Waxing poetic about the original intentions of gamefreak when they hatched this fat monster is all in good fun, but it has absolutely no bearing on our unique metagame and how snorlax does, or doesnt, fit into it. Consider for example the legendary birds, like Articuno and Moltres, in the gen 4 metagame. While their base stats are incredible, they both suffer from a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock (50% damage upon switching in). This is an example of how the particulars of a unique metagame can dictate a pokemon's effectiveness in the tier, and how comparing a pokemon's situation in another metagame can often be irrelevant

 

Likewise, you can talk about base stats and abilities all you want, but as long as theyre in a vacuum they are pointless - there are many pokemon with high base stats that aren't nearly as good in practice as they may appear on paper, and vice versa. I'd suggest including some calculations ( http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ ) with your argument to back up your claims, they are usually pretty convincing.

[Spaintakula]

Someone give me acid to drink

[SpartacusGD]

1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

That part isn't entirely true. It depends on what Bliss' status move is and whether it is CM set. I've beaten Chanseys with a Wish / CM / Taunt / Psy Gard, non toxic less Bliss / Chanseys lose to 252 hp / speed growth jolteon and CM slowbro, while toxic Bliss loses to Growth Venusaur and Chansey loses to Haunter as well, which was quite common earlier. The thing is none of those spakers can actually beat Snorlax because you can't run a set up special sweeper vs Lax, you need specs, similarly you can't beat Chansey / Bliss with a specs special attacker. The difference between Lax and the other fat blobs is that the latter don't have any sort of offensive pressure and you can work your way around them with wish+cleric support to heal your switch ins, but Lax just outright shuts that down.

but nik this gard set is entirely made to stop chansey which is against the "unhealthy cause we make this pokes enttirely for one poke mentally of the TC right?"

[NikhilR]

14 minutes ago, SpartacusGD said:

but nik this gard set is entirely made to stop chansey which is against the "unhealthy cause we make this pokes enttirely for one poke mentally of the TC right?"

Yeah the gard set is entirely made to stop Chansey,  it works well as a general wallbreaker though, but running a particular set for one pokemon and running a particular pokemon just to counter another, are two different things. The thing is, I was able to find something to punish Chansey, but nothing that punishes anyone for using Lax. I'm just spectating the OU tourney, and Walpayer body slam para'd Takens' incoming Rhydon and then revenge killed with a surf. He was running a curse / surf / body slam / rest set. Takens also had a Skarmory as a Snorlax switch in, which got para'd and then parahaxed twice in a row and in the end couldn't revenge kill a blaziken because of this para and only set up one layer of spikes. Running 2 pokemon to beat Snorlax and still got crippled.

 

Another thing people overlook is how Snorlax's body slam para  affects other pokemon in the bigger picture because they are almost rendered useless if they get parahaxed. There have been so many OU games where Snorlax and its para has been the match deciding factor. If anyone is up for it, watch Frags vs Dreico in the finals of "The Star Of The Show" or watch my match vs Maekaay in "Take it Slow-Bro" tournament to see how a body slam para ruined a haze milo which couldn't recover and thus lost. 

Edited September 4, 2016 by NikhilR

[Gunthug]

5 minutes ago, SpartacusGD said:

but nik this gard set is entirely made to stop chansey which is against the "unhealthy cause we make this pokes enttirely for one poke mentally of the TC right?"

Well, I think there's a difference here. What I would call unhealthy is, when you're forced to use an unusual set, which is objectively NOT the pokemon's best set, just to prevent your team from being destroyed by a certain threat - ie: something like max defense rest talk hitmontop to deal with Ttar throughout the match. On the other hand, there's an example like Nik's gard set - there are other ways to get around blissey/chansey (use another wallbreaker to open the way for something like Gard), or you can design your gard to where it doesn't need the wallbreakers and can penetrate a special wall by itself.

 

Reminds me a little of Gyarados v Skarmory - you can trap skarm with magneton or deal with it first using jolteon BEFORE trying to sweep with gyarados - or, you can run a taunt/DD gyara which renders skarm largely ineffective at dealing with it. That's the kind of innovation that is healthy for a metagame. There's a sometimes fine line between that an unhealthy centralization, but I guess that's what we're here to discuss. For example, does an impish 252 hp 252 def rest talk Machamp fall into the unhealthy category, when used to deal with lax? Probably, imo

[pachima]

So many discussion. Just put Snorlax UU and everyone will be happy.

[Fugu]

5 hours ago, Fugu said:

I can't believe this thread even exists.. Are you guys seriously debating whether snorlax is overpowered or not?

 

1) Saying that snorlax has some checks / counters is pointless. 

 

Let's begin this by saying that -- EVERYTHING-- can be countered. MewTwo can be countered, this doesn't make it any less overpowered. How many viable counters exist though? That's the issue. How hard is it to counter snorlax? "Somewhat" hard. How many options do you have to do it? Not that many (compared to other mons). Are you 100% forced to run these counters when you do competitive play? Pretty much, yes.

 

--- Based on the "Strengths Vs. Weaknesses" scale, is snorlax too powerful? Yes.

 

 

2) Movepool.

 

Some pokemons would be freaking great if it wasn't for their limited movepool (Muk for example). What about snorlax? I think it was in the OT that it was clearly established that Snorlax has a ridiculous movepool. I don't think anyone has argued that it wasn't the case either.

 

--- Based on the "Movepool" scale, is snorlax too powerful? Yes.

 

 

3) Stats and Legendary pokemons.

 

Pokemons come with base stats. Some pokemons have much higher stats than others, and some pokemons were specially designed to be end game toys for single players who completed the game. Many of these end game toys are legendary pokemons, which are thankfully either banned or not available here, and a couple of other ridiculous mons that should probably be banned as well. What about snorlax though? Whether you like it or not, snorlax is pretty much the neutral legendary pokemon of gen 1, except it does not have the game lore to back it up. You could catch two snorlax in the whole game, it served as a mini-boss (and had mini-boss stats) and that was it. Natures was not a thing then, nor were perfect IV / EVed mons, and that pokemon was still freaking strong then.

 

Let's analyze these stats now though:

 

* That pokemon has 540 total base stats.

 

* Only 95 of those (30 speed and 65 special attack) is "mostly" non factor (non factor stats would be special attack on a pokemon that only uses / has access to physical moves for example, or HP / Sp def / defense on shedinja, etc.)

 

* This leaves 445 effective stats. <-- Some pokemons don't even have 445 total stats..

 

Stat wise, Snorlax's only real downside is a "low" defense stat.. which gets buffed by curse (speed could be as well, but due to curse, it becomes a non-factor stat)

 

--- Based on the "Stats" scale, is snorlax too powerful? Yes.

 

 

4) Ability.

 

Some pokemons will have great stats, great movesets and few counters, but they will have horrible abilities to compensiate (Slaking comes to mind as the prominent example of such phenomenon). What about snorlax though? Snorlax has access to two abilities; it can either be immune to poison (thus you cannot use toxic on snorlax..), or it can gain resist to two of the best offensive types in the game (fire and ice). When battling snorlax, you thus have to assume two things if you don't want to waste your turn:

 

1 ) I won't use toxic on it unless I want to gamble and hope it has Thick Fat (resulting in free curse set up or massive stab body slam damage to the face)

2 ) I won't use fire and ice moves on it unless I really have to.. or if want to know if it has Immunity (resulting in one turn wasted on using such move)

 

These are two great abilities, by the way, especially if you have such a strong defensive pokemon using them. Also, due to the nature of these two abilities and how a fight with snorlax goes, these abilities will act as if they were both present on the pokemon at the same time. Nobody is going to try to poison snorlax because they don't want to give this dude a free set up **, and they won't want to attack him with fire and ice moves either unless they don't have a choice.

 

--- Based on the "Ability" scale, is snorlax too powerful? Not on that scale alone, no, but these abilities complement all other snorlax strengths pretty well, thus adding to the problem rather than take away some of its shine.

 

** I know snorlax has rest and that it counters Toxic, but that is still a factor.

------------------------------------

Summary:

All pokemons can be countered but the effort needed to counter snorlax is much greater than the ease with which snorlax users can be rape the competition.

Snorlax has a great movepool.

Snorlax has uber stats.

Snorlax does not have abilities that make him weaker (like a pokemon like slaking has for example)-- instead having access to two strong abilities that effectively work even when the pokemon does not have the ability (not using poison in case it has Immunity, and avoiding fire and ice moves in case it has Thick Fat).

 

Conclusion: Snorlax is overpowered and more than deserve its spot in the uber tier list.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Side thoughts on the subject of Body Slam and on the paralysis status effect:

 

Body Slam in itself is insanely underrated as a move. It has damage that's way too high for the % of paralysis it inflicts. Paralysis in itself is pretty much, imo, the strongest status effect in the game, so having a move with this much power and this much RNG to inflict it is dumb to begin with.

 

HOWEVER!!!

 

If you are to do a special ban (banning body slam on snorlax), I think you guys are not looking at the right move here. It is either Rest or Curse that push snorlax over the top. I highly consider that -SNORLAX- itself is the problem, and that -SNORLAX- itslef should be in the uber, but if you are to only make a special ban on a move, you have to target the right move here -- and body slam just isn't it. The ability to cure itself of status effect and to heal up after a couple of def / atk increase is a problem... the ability to increase def and atk on a pokemon whose only downside is def and one of its strengths is attack is another.

 

If you were to ban only Bodyslamlax, then they'll just use Return or Double Edge instead, dealing even more stab damage.. at the expense of no RNG reliance. Massive def tanks will be happy about that, but just about anything will still get screwed anyway, thus not changing the outcome.

That was my original contribution Gunthug. Reposting it because from what you wrote you seem to reply as if you saw my 3rd post as the first and only one I wrote. Repeating the same things everyone's already brought in this 10 pages thread is pointless, analysing it from a different perspective with a different approach was not.

 

While my post is not "specific" to this meta (others have done it already, there is no need to repeat it), that is exactly point here. I consider snorlax in the current overused meta to be a joke to begin with as from the get go, snorlax by design is downright overpowered and should have stayed in the uber list. It made no sense whatsoever to even put it back in the OU, and the fact the entire OU meta revolves around Snorlax and has been since he was reintroduced should be proof enough.

 

I feel 10 pages down on this thread that we're all wasting time that would be better spent on dealing with other pokemons that DO require discussions rather than debating whether an obviously overpowered pokemon destroying the game's fun and dictating its meta should continue doing so. I feel like many players would have prefered that instead of a discussion thread, this would have been people apologizing for letting snorlax go back to the OU meta and ruining the fun out of pretty much anyone.

 

Snorlax can wall out a good portion of the metagame.

Snorlax can sweep a good portion of the metagame (granted it takes setting up)

Snorlax is uncompetitive in the sense that even noobs spam it and manage to get wins regardless of skill level.

Curselax will only get damaged by very specific counters or strategies, or will require critical hits to dent damage to it (physical damage preferably because he just craps on sp damage), effectively dictating the meta around him. If you don't have answers against snorlax specifically you cannot even compete in OU.

 

The opener and some others seemed to assume body slam's paralysis when used by snorlax was a problem (thus it would cover another "luck dependant" point for uncompetitive) but I do not believe that is the problem with snorlax. The core problem of Snorlax, is snorlax itself hence my first thread.

 

PS: I read that thread you linked before and that guide's existence would be cool and all if the actual tier reflected it 100%, which is not the case with things like Alakazam and Metagross being in OU (if gengar is in uber (deservedly so), then so should zam).

[Gunthug]

4 minutes ago, Fugu said:

That was my original contribution Gunthug. Reposting it because from what you wrote you seem to reply as if you saw my 3rd post as the first and only one I wrote. Repeating the same things everyone's already brought in this 10 pages thread is pointless, analysing it from a different perspective with a different approach was not.

 

While my post is not "specific" to this meta (others have done it already, there is no need to repeat it), that is exactly point here. I consider snorlax in the current overused meta to be a joke to begin with as from the get go, snorlax by design is downright overpowered and should have stayed in the uber list. It made no sense whatsoever to even put it back in the OU, and the fact the entire OU meta revolves around Snorlax and has been since he was reintroduced should be proof enough.

 

I feel 10 pages down on this thread that we're all wasting time that would be better spent on dealing with other pokemons that DO require discussions rather than debating whether an obviously overpowered pokemon destroying the game's fun and dictating its meta should continue doing so. I feel like many players would have prefered that instead of a discussion thread, this would have been people apologizing for letting snorlax go back to the OU meta and ruining the fun out of pretty much anyone.

 

Snorlax can wall out a good portion of the metagame.

Snorlax can sweep a good portion of the metagame (granted it takes setting up)

Snorlax is uncompetitive in the sense that even noobs spam it and manage to get wins regardless of skill level.

Curselax will only get damaged by very specific counters or strategies, or will require critical hits to dent damage to it (physical damage preferably because he just craps on sp damage), effectively dictating the meta around him. If you don't have answers against snorlax specifically you cannot even compete in OU.

 

The opener and some others seemed to assume body slam's paralysis when used by snorlax was a problem (thus it would cover another "luck dependant" point for uncompetitive) but I do not believe that is the problem with snorlax. The core problem of Snorlax, is snorlax itself hence my first thread.

 

PS: I read that thread you linked before and that guide's existence would be cool and all if the actual tier reflected it 100%, which is not the case with things like Alakazam and Metagross being in OU (if gengar is in uber (deservedly so), then so should zam).

Your entire premise falls apart when it's compared to reality. "Snorlax was designed to be downright overpowered and should never have come down from the uber list."

 

Snorlax in competitive pokemon history -

Gen 1: OU

Gen 2: OU

Gen 3: OU

Gen 4: OU

Gen 5: UU

Gen 6: UU

 

So why are you operating under the false pretense that Lax is an uber being paraded around in OU here? Lax has certainly enjoyed its fair share of Uber time in OUR metagame, but it has perpetually been right on the borderline between uber and a healthy OU force, which is why we keep having this discussion. Meanwhile, the metagame around snorlax is getting closer and closer to a true gen 3/4 metagame (LF legendaries please) which is why lax had been reintroduced in the first place.

 

Also, the fact that you think gengar being Uber automatically requires zam to be uber shows your disconnect with the functional metagame here at pokemmo

[Gunthug]

Guess I'll reveal where I officially stand on snorlax right now, I'll keep it short and sweet if I can

 

Honestly, I'm pretty torn. On one hand, a full health snorlax comes in on basically ANY special attacker (certain sets like CB pursuit don't even really fear special trickers). Then, it proceeds to heavily threaten whatever the opponent switches to with a strong stab body slam + paralysis - unless that pokemon is dusclops (has coverage for that, too). It's the kind of pokemon that causes people to be wary of running special attackers at all, since merely showing a special attacker has the potential to give snorlax a free turn, and often times a free paralysis.

 

HOWEVER...

 

Snorlax is so splashable, and handles special attackers so well, that it's often brought in quite often during the early parts of the game. I mean, unless you plan on running chansey AND snorlax (which, judging from the latest usage, actually seems like it's happening haha), you're gonna have trouble saving snorlax for late game and still handling the vicious specs and life orb sp attackers we have in the tier. Why is this problematic? Because snorlax's ability to handle special attackers often requires lax to be healthy, or nearly healthy. Yes, he's incredibly punishing when he comes in and soaks up a life orb jolteon tbolt for 30% - but what about the next time? You're flirting with a 2hko at that point. Even back when we lacked many of the tools we now have to deal with snorlax, the name of the game was usually force it to rest, then deal with it from there. If you can force snorlax to rest by forcing it to come in and soak up special attacks, it becomes much much easier to deal with (suddenly your heracross/blaziken/medicham/machamp "answers" are much safer to switch in, and a lax user is going to have a very difficult time bringing things in to deal with those while lax is asleep and exposed).

 

The problem becomes keeping your team healthy, and free of paralysis, for long enough to whittle lax down and deal with it. This becomes an increasingly specific gameplan, but it's certainly no surprise that lax is centralizing our metagame. Is he overcentralizing it? I'm still not sure, and I'm worried about our options to test that theory out. If we do a test ban to view the metagame without snorlax, I'm pretty certain most people would just run Chansey and wait out the test - it's the most simple solution when resources are at a premium. Innovation didn't start to arise last time we banned lax until CHANSEY was banned as well, and even then another month or so went by before we finally started to see creative sp def cores and situational answers - granted, this was without specs/life orb, so they were relatively effective but will they still be? All these factors are tangled up into the snorlax mess right now, and it's making our job as a tier council pretty difficult. But we're here to make the difficult decisions, so you can probably expect one in the near future in early october

Edited September 4, 2016 by Gunthug

[Fugu]

A strong well defined metagame is an indication that the "balancing team" failed (pokemon was not intended to be a mmo either, so we can't really blame them). The more defined and clear a metagame is, the more this indicates that the balance is not healthy. The goal (your goal) should be to have the lines between overused / underused / never used as blurred as possible. In a perfect game, there would be no tier to begin with.. but that is just impossible with how pokemon is designed and that is not your fault nor will it ever be though.

 

I claim snorlax is downright overpowered and without a question uber, but let's assume it wasn't and it was as you say it is here -- a pokemon that surfs between uber and overused just for the sake of this argument.

 

As it is, snorlax requires other overused and borderline uber pokemons to be dealt with, sometimes even more than one of those. This shows that snorlax is a problem, especially since every single matchmaking now involves snorlax + its counters. A pokemon that is this strong, and which "surfs between the line of uber and overused" as you claim, prevents other pokemons from showing up in the metagame, this going against what should be your end goal as the only "balancing guard dogs" we have on pokemmo (<-- not pejorative here) of producing a "meta" that is as broad as possible and which allows as many pokemons of all tiers to be usable in competitive. If the top pokemons are too powerful, there is very little place left for the not-so-top pokemons to show up.

 

If we use imagery to explain this situation, we could also go like this. You have a container that can hold 3L of water. Each tier corresponds to a quantity - 1L of water for never used, 2L of water for underused, 3L of water for overused and 4 L of water for uber. You own a container that can hold 3 L max in it, and anything above it will spill. So then, why are you trying to fill that container with 3.5L snorlax? Because snorlax is clearly not an -obvious- 3L. Someone will have to clean the floor and remove the extra water that's spilling from trying to fit 3.5L of water in a box that can only contain 3L. I'd rather people start using 1L and 2L to get that 3L rather than always go for 3L or overkill it and go for the 3.5L.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Fugu

[gbwead]

The TC hasn't reached a decision on Snorlax yet. There is a lot at stake here and we don't want to make any mistake. Snorlax will therefore remain OU. On October 2nd, the TC will announce whether Snorlax will be banned or not.

[ArgoDrag]

5 minutes ago, Fugu said:

A strong well defined metagame is an indication that the "balancing team" failed (pokemon was not intended to be a mmo either, so we can't really blame them). The more defined and clear a metagame is, the more this indicates that the balance is not healthy. The goal (your goal) should be to have the lines between overused / underused / never used as blurred as possible. In a perfect game, there would be no tier to begin with.. but that is just impossible with how pokemon is designed and that is not your fault nor will it ever be though.

 

I claim snorlax is downright overpowered and without a question uber, but let's assume it wasn't and it was as you say it is here -- a pokemon that surfs between uber and overused just for the sake of this argument.

 

As it is, snorlax requires other overused and borderline uber pokemons to be dealt with, sometimes even more than one of those. This shows that snorlax is a problem, especially since every single matchmaking now involves snorlax + its counters. A pokemon that is this strong, and which "surfs between the line of uber and overused" as you claim, prevents other pokemons from showing up in the metagame, this going against what should be your end goal as the only "balancing guard dogs" we have on pokemmo (<-- not pejorative here) of producing a "meta" that is as broad as possible and which allows as many pokemons of all tiers to be usable in competitive. If the top pokemons are too powerful, there is very little place left for the not-so-top pokemons to show up.

 

If we use imagery to explain this situation, we could also go like this. You have a container that can hold 3L of water. Each tier corresponds to a quantity - 1L of water for never used, 2L of water for underused, 3L of water for overused and 4 L of water for uber. You own a container that can hold 3 L max in it, and anything above it will spill. So then, why are you trying to fill that container with 3.5L snorlax? Because snorlax is clearly not an -obvious- 3L. Someone will have to clean the floor and remove the extra water that's spilling from trying to fit 3.5L of water in a box that can only contain 3L. I'd rather people start using 1L and 2L to get that 3L rather than always go for 3L or overkill it and go for the 3.5L.

You keep saying that Lax is unhealthy to this meta, but as a matter of fact it's made other pokemon who were otherwise never used in OU useful (Looking at Dusclops mainly). Getting rid of Snorlax will just make the ALREADY USED special sweepers who can setup even more broken. So why get rid of a pokemon who can stop these pokemon from sweeping (and being unstoppable) as well as making other pokemon who were previously not used viable again? Also, I'd like to see who the hell you think is borderline Uber in this meta because I'm sure everybody here would have a completely different idea (including the tier council). Also, obviously over Over Used pokemon have to be used to stop ANOTHER Over Used pokemon. The pokemon in the other tiers are in the lower tiers for a reason, if they were a great counter/check to Snorlax then surely they would be able to stop other pokemon in Over Used as well and would find themselves in Over Used. So saying Snorlax is too OP for the lower tiers is irrelevant to this argument because this is about the Over Used tier, not anything lower.

[codylramey]

2 hours ago, Gunthug said:

Sorry man, I can see that you're eager to contribute here but your arguments and reasoning for wanting snorlax banned don't really match with how things work. I'd suggest giving this a read before continuing to make posts here on comp alley:

 

Specifically, the focus of this discussion is whether Snorlax is too strong for this particular OU metagame. Waxing poetic about the original intentions of gamefreak when they hatched this fat monster is all in good fun, but it has absolutely no bearing on our unique metagame and how snorlax does, or doesnt, fit into it. Consider for example the legendary birds, like Articuno and Moltres, in the gen 4 metagame. While their base stats are incredible, they both suffer from a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock (50% damage upon switching in). This is an example of how the particulars of a unique metagame can dictate a pokemon's effectiveness in the tier, and how comparing a pokemon's situation in another metagame can often be irrelevant

 

Likewise, you can talk about base stats and abilities all you want, but as long as theyre in a vacuum they are pointless - there are many pokemon with high base stats that aren't nearly as good in practice as they may appear on paper, and vice versa. I'd suggest including some calculations ( http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ ) with your argument to back up your claims, they are usually pretty convincing.

Yo i would like to take a second to applaud Gunthug for this post. It is much more professional than the posts new people to tiering use to see from the TC.

 

As for snorlax, i had always thought that the meta where chansey ruled the scene was much more healthy than snorlax. Even if chanseys usage was just as high, or maybe even higher, team building didnt suffer as much imo. Where with snorlax, if you were going to build a team that can deal with everything lax can throw at you you would dedicate half your team to just dealing with lax.

[LifeStyle]

> Notifications from Snorlax thread

*Comes to check if banned*

> Just some uguu talking about Pokemon Red or w/e, smh

[myhugeboijoe]

Was announcing that snorlax is staying in OU the only tier change? How about the johto starters, zangoose, etc?

[Gunthug]

3 minutes ago, myhugeboijoe said:

Was announcing that snorlax is staying in OU the only tier change? How about the johto starters, zangoose, etc?

Full announcements should be coming soon