[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[DoubleJ]

When every set that isn't used right now gets called a gimmick. Mfw. 

[pachima]

Meganium probably the best cleric that can face snorlax with little problems. Still, mega is useless on the rest.

[Xatu]

16 pages with everyone saying pretty much the same thing.  Let's ban Snorlax.

[Hotarubi]

7 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

When every set that isn't used right now gets called a gimmick.

When one Pokemon causes you to build other pokes you use differently than would be generally useful, other than only to dispatch said snorlax.

That Pokemon is unhealthy.

The apparent counter I previously stated is 2/3 uber.

Metagross, gengar, Tyranitar.

The only single poke I can imagine to effectively nullify snorax would be sablye...

What other use will sablye have once snor is dealt with? Im not sure.

 

 

[OrangeManiac]

2 hours ago, Hotarubi said:

But thats the truth.

Im only interested in fairness and competitive health for Ou tier.

It's true that the pokemon is overpowered for OU .

The best counter being Tyranitar , Gengar, and metagross triangle which walls it off entirely.

The fact is it's up to par with the other Uber pokemon which Is why I persist in saying let it return uber.

I see no other reason to leave it in Ou tier rather than to add more RNG and avoid a chansey meta.

An offensive spdef wall like snorlax with a damaging stab move that causes 51% paralysis in a few spams seems incredibly unhealthy.

Doesn't milotic with recover and haze vs snorlax with curse body slam rest and return seem like a huge stall fest as the last pokemon out of 6 on each side?

Isn't the current health of competitive OU what this discussion is about?

The fact stands that snorlax poses a huge threat on multiple levels and its best counters are uber.

Something must be done about this.

 

The reason why I was criticizing your comment wasn't that I find anything wrong with you considering Snorlax Uberworthy as a Pokemon. Heck, it most likely should be. My critique was to point out the kind of ethics in your argumentation was poor. Automatically assuming that the person questioning the Snorlax ban is only doing so to avoid 'stale Chansey metagame' is basically trying to shut down any kind of counter-argument (and therefor discussion) that person has for you when you already assume their counter-argument is going to be bad. The same way I could be asking a loaded question of 'You just hate Snorlax because you cannot teambuild against it?' and that would be a stupid question because instead of listening to what you have to say about the topic itself I just pre-emptively give no credit to your opinion.

 

You also should avoid using words such as 'truth' when it comes to tiering because there are no objective truths what comes to tiering. Just opinions. This is all arbitrary. Also to be Uber it doesn't need to be par with other Ubers, it just needs to make current OU in some notably significant way less playable with it than without it. Does Snorlax do that? At this point a lot seem on board with that so we'll see.

[Hotarubi]

1 minute ago, OrangeManiac said:

The reason why I was criticizing your comment wasn't that I find anything wrong with you considering Snorlax Uberworthy as a Pokemon. Heck, it most likely should be. My critique was to point out the kind of ethics in your argumentation was poor. Automatically assuming that the person questioning the Snorlax ban is only doing so to avoid 'stale Chansey metagame' is basically trying to shut down any kind of counter-argument (and therefor discussion) that person has for you when you already assume their counter-argument is going to be bad. The same way I could be asking a loaded question of 'You just hate Snorlax because you cannot teambuild against it?' and that would be a stupid question because instead of listening to what you have to say about the topic itself I just pre-emptively give no credit to your opinion.

 

You also should avoid using words such as 'truth' when it comes to tiering because there are no objective truths what comes to tiering. Just opinions. This is all arbitrary. Also to be Uber it doesn't need to be par with other Ubers, it just needs to make current OU in some notably significant way less playable with it than without it. Does Snorlax do that? At this point a lot seem on board with that so we'll see.

When I said truth, I was remarking in regards to the only viable argument held by the average bear would be to avoid a stale Meta.

My opinion is that this seem to be the only argument with substantial backing.

I'm not buying snorlax being a reason for a more active or fun Ou tier.

I feel that it actually takes away from that.

Even that it's ruining fun and competition for more skilled players.

I see it as a very imbalanced and negative presence.

If it stands up there with other uber Pokemon.

Why is it not obvious it also belongs in that tier?

 

[Gunthug]

11 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

 

If it stands up there with other uber Pokemon.

Why is it not obvious it also belongs in that tier?

 

This is a really poor argument, why are people comparing snorlax to things like ttar, gengar, dnite? It's not like ttar or gengar are actually snorlax counters anyways, and theyre much different pokemon than snorlax in terms of what they're capable of so the comparison means nothing.

 

There IS an uber pokemon that can be very strongly compared to snorlax, though, and i'm surprised it hasn't been brought up more. Blissey. It blows my mind that we're currently in a meta where blissey is deemed too strong unhealthy, yet snorlax isn't. The mere fact that Blissey is banned should be some of the strongest ammo for lax-ban supporters. Yet we've got people prattling on about truth and ttar for some odd reason

Edited September 19, 2016 by Gunthug

[DoubleJ]

1. Does Snorlax sweep the majority of teams?
2. Does Snorlax "wall" the majority of teams?
3. Does Snorlax regularly provide an unfair advantage when used on opposing teams?
4. Does Body Slam paralysis beat opposing teams the majority of the time?
5. Does Snorlax and its versatility beat opposing teams the majority of the time?
6. Is Snorlax overly centralizing?
7. Is Pursuit Snorlax unhealthy for the OU metagame?
8. Do players have to rely on gimmicks to beat Snorlax the majority of the time?
9. Is there a pokemon that can be brought down from Ubers that can create balance in the OU tier and leviate the reliance we have on Snorlax?
10. Does Snorlax remove the autonomy of the average player?

I am yet to find a valid answer as to why Snorlax should be banned. Proposals include:

1. Snorlax with Body Slam is uncompetitive because of the 30% paralysis rate
   1. Is Body Slam on Poliwrath in NU equally as uncompetitive because it can spam Body Slam, do a high amount of damage to its switch in, and bank on paralysis to provide a chance to faint its counter?
   2. Why complain about Body Slam paralysis when there are numerous other game changing RNG strategies available? Is it because it's popular right now?
   3. If the real problem is Body Slam, why not use a bulky Magneton set as a free switch on most Snorlax? EQ is rare. 
2. Snorlax can counter its checks with its versatility and thus cannot be countered
   1. Snorlax provides versatility which can stop certain counter sets, but you have to take into account that a change in moveset limits Snorlax in a lot of different ways. Considering this, Snorlax is limited by the incredible number of checks it has to the point that it really just relies on Body Slam for the remainder of the meta. 
   2. Milotic with Haze hard counters nearly every Snorlax set we've seen. 
3. Snorlax isn't fun to play against
   1. This is not a viable argument for it to be banned. 
4. Snorlax is broken
   1. There is no substance to this argument. 

[LifeStyle]

6 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

If it stands up there with other uber Pokemon.

Why is it not obvious it also belongs in that tier?

Heracross stands up there with other Uber Pokemon aswell, so why is Heracross not Uber?

Because that's not what makes a Pokemon Uber, this is:

" A Pokemon is considered Uber if it is too powerful to be reasonably handled within the bounds of the standard metagame. Uber status is determined by this factor alone; it does not matter if a Pokemon is worthless in the Ubers tier, or if it is outclassed by anything already in Ubers. In Ubers, a strategy or Pokemon may appear to be broken; this doesn't matter as Ubers is essentially a ban list for OU, and nothing is currently too broken to be used in Ubers. Uber Pokemon generally have extremely large movepools and very high Base Stats when compared to OU Pokemon. "

From Smogon

 

For me tho, Snorlax itself isn't broken, only Body Slam Snorlax is, ParaHax fucks most of its counters.

If Curselax didn't have access to Body Slam, would something like Rhydon even care facing one? No, in fact it could even setup on it, problem is when you switch Rhydon against a Snorlax you get a chance of getting para'd and being fucked for the rest of the match, even if you run a cleric it's just gonna be shit on by Snorlax.

I think spamming Body Slam is fucking uncompetitive and we would actually see some more creativity in Snorlax sets if it didn't have access to it.

[Hotarubi]

4 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

This is a really poor argument, why are people comparing snorlax to things like ttar, gengar, dnite? It's not like ttar or gengar are actually snorlax counters anyways, and theyre much different pokemon than snorlax in terms of what they're capable of so the comparison means nothing.

 

There IS an uber pokemon that can be very strongly compared to snorlax, though, and i'm surprised it hasn't been brought up more. Blissey. It blows my mind that we're currently in a meta where blissey is deemed too strong unhealthy, yet snorlax isn't. The mere fact that Blissey is banned should be some of the strongest ammo for lax-ban supporters. Yet we've got people prattling on about truth and ttar for some odd reason

So I never said they are the same build.

I did say that TTAR GENGAR and metagross form a perfect counter to snorlax all together...

But yes blissey is similarly strong.

[Spaintakula]

35 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

When one Pokemon causes you to build other pokes you use differently than would be generally useful, other than only to dispatch said snorlax.

That Pokemon is unhealthy.

The apparent counter I previously stated is 2/3 uber.

Metagross, gengar, Tyranitar.

The only single poke I can imagine to effectively nullify snorax would be sablye...

What other use will sablye have once snor is dealt with? Im not sure.

I beg you, find me a metagame where a pokemon HASN'T caused the eruption of a certain set(s) to arise.

it's actually beneficial if a pokemon causes the other mons to use different moves rather than the default 4-5 moves repeated. Better to have that than a metagame that never changes, think for a bit. Now, if you were actually thinking with the right sense in mind, then maybe there'd be a part of me that could've agreed, that is, if snorlax was uber material indeed. 

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, Spaintakula said:

I beg you, find me a metagame where a pokemon HASN'T caused the eruption of a certain set(s) to arise.

it's actually beneficial if a pokemon causes the other mons to use different moves rather than the default 4-5 moves repeated. Better to have that than a metagame that never changes, think for a bit. Now, if you were actually thinking with the right sense in mind, then maybe there'd be a part of me that could've agreed, that is, if snorlax was uber material indeed. 

Thank you. I was waiting for someone to bring this up as an aspect of a healthy metagame. 

[BlackJovi]

Why is running different sets considered bad/gimmick? It just promotes the creativity wtf

 

E: Correct me if im wrong but someone did say that

Edited September 19, 2016 by BlackJovi

[LegendP]

On 17/9/2016 at 6:12 AM, Bluejim said:

  Can we ban this shit cancer called snorlax already. Makes me so sad getting haxd every fucking time from body freaking slam making me sack all my pokes and lose cause i got parad every time this shit hit me. I got knocked out from todays official because my venusaur got parad one turn before it gives final blow to snorlax. Also body slam vs me had its shiny moments in matchmaking more times than i can actually remember. If banning body slam on snorlax isnt possible then just ban the freaking poke.

rt

[LifeStyle]

9 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

1. Snorlax with Body Slam is uncompetitive because of the 30% paralysis rate
   1. Is Body Slam on Poliwrath in NU equally as uncompetitive because it can spam Body Slam, do a high amount of damage to its switch in, and bank on paralysis to provide a chance to faint its counter?

Poliwrath doesn't get STAB from Body Slam like Snorlax does, also Snorlax can switch against pretty much any special attacker while Poli only checks some of NU's physical attackers (I say physical cuz people run Impish/Relaxed>Careful) so it doesn't get as many opportunities to spam Body Slam, and ofc Poli can't set up curse while haxing ur opponent at the same time. Now you could say Miltank gets STAB from Body Slam and has Curse, but the fact is it can be pressured by Special attackers even running sp def nature while Lax will just shit on them. And ofc it doesn't hit as hard as lax either.

[DaftCoolio]

2 hours ago, Hotarubi said:

While i hate these answer in quote replies i feel its the best way to go about this sorry. 

But thats the truth.

Im only interested in fairness and competitive health for Ou tier.

It's true that the pokemon is overpowered for OU .

It isn't true this is your opinion, if it was true we wouldnt be here and the tc would of banned it 2months or so ago.

The best counter being Tyranitar , Gengar, and metagross triangle which walls it off entirely.

TTar loses to sub punch, gengar loses to curse and we have metagross now. Miltotic is probably its best counter. 

The fact is it's up to par with the other Uber pokemon which Is why I persist in saying let it return uber.

Again another of your opinions  remember Opinions are the least valuable type of information here.

I see no other reason to leave it in Ou tier rather than to add more RNG and avoid a chansey meta.

We don't need to provide a reason to keep it here, there needs to be a reason to move it to ubers, and just saying its as good as other uber pokemon doesn't really count

An offensive spdef wall like snorlax with a damaging stab move that causes 51% paralysis in a few spams seems incredibly unhealthy.

Paralyzing a pokemon doesn't suddenly render it ineffective.

Doesn't milotic with recover and haze vs snorlax with curse body slam rest and return seem like a huge stall fest as the last pokemon out of 6 on each side?

Crazy how a counter ends up stalling in a 1v1 situation

Isn't the current health of competitive OU what this discussion is about?

The fact stands that snorlax poses a huge threat on multiple levels and its best counters are uber.

Something must be done about this.

 

[Gilan]

9 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

1. Does Snorlax sweep the majority of teams? No. The only time it sweeps is if you let it curse up willy nilly, or the rest of your team is weak af and snorlax can survive a couple of hits as it finishes off those pokemon.
2. Does Snorlax "wall" the majority of teams? No. It's a special wall, so it's naturally going to wall starmies and the like. But unless it got a couple of curses it's not blocking the physical hitters well.
3. Does Snorlax regularly provide an unfair advantage when used on opposing teams? Not really. The only thing that I could say is that if you let your physical attackers die before you deal with their lax, then you are going to lose regardless of how many pokemon you have left.
4. Does Body Slam paralysis beat opposing teams the majority of the time? This is probable. But I really couldn't say without looking at the data (which there is none of, so we are all being pretty subjective here). Without a doubt, a parahax can be a huge obstacle for a team to overcome and can spell out a loss right then an there (like crits, but more common).
5. Does Snorlax and its versatility beat opposing teams the majority of the time? The versatility just means that you have to play carefully around the snorlax (which you should be doing anyways) to make sure you won't get caught by surprise.
6. Is Snorlax overly centralizing? No. It has centralizing aspects, yes. But it is not overly centralizing.
7. Is Pursuit Snorlax unhealthy for the OU metagame? I can't comment on this, but I suspect no.
8. Do players have to rely on gimmicks to beat Snorlax the majority of the time? I certainly don't. I'm just careful to not let a lax set up on me or get the better of me, and once I know the lax is there and how my opponent is going to utilize it, playing around it with my team is usually pretty simple.
9. Is there a pokemon that can be brought down from Ubers that can create balance in the OU tier and leviate the reliance we have on Snorlax? No lol. Cause you all hate hyper aggressive strategies.
10. Does Snorlax remove the autonomy of the average player? Perhaps. It really is just BSlam / Curse. Occasional predicts with a fire blast / surf sometimes.

 

Take my statements with a grain of salt, lel. We all know how competitive I am. (personally don't see what a big problem it is. At worst for me, I just trade 1 for 1 against a lax...)

[Thunderprime]

48 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

This is a really poor argument, why are people comparing snorlax to things like ttar, gengar, dnite? It's not like ttar or gengar are actually snorlax counters anyways, and theyre much different pokemon than snorlax in terms of what they're capable of so the comparison means nothing.

 

There IS an uber pokemon that can be very strongly compared to snorlax, though, and i'm surprised it hasn't been brought up more. Blissey. It blows my mind that we're currently in a meta where blissey is deemed too strong unhealthy, yet snorlax isn't. The mere fact that Blissey is banned should be some of the strongest ammo for lax-ban supporters. Yet we've got people prattling on about truth and ttar for some odd reason

Your wrong at the begining there is a similar characteristic to snorlax and gengar. They both got high stats yeah but they also both got an incredibly large movepool that makes them able to beat almost every other pokes including their counters. Snorlax has the bulk while gengar has the immunities.

 

Gengar was a pretty good counter to lax actually

Edited September 20, 2016 by Thunderprime

[Hotarubi]

While i hate these answer in quote replies i feel its the best way to go about this sorry. 

But thats the truth.

Im only interested in fairness and competitive health for Ou tier.

It's true that the pokemon is overpowered for OU .    

 

Combined with its moveset, the rng etc etc the base hp being the 5th highest in the game 160 base hp and the ability to utilize that hp and abuse it with rest.

It is true its over powered for OU, you can compare this pokemon to blissey as was previously stated.

It isn't true this is your opinion, if it was true we wouldnt be here and the tc would of banned it 2months or so ago.

The best counter being Tyranitar , Gengar, and metagross triangle which walls it off entirely.

 

 

a while ago. It was banned

 

. I was under the impression that it was brought out of the UBER TIER for testing.

I think it's had its day and its time to let it go that is my opinion.

This was true

 

 

TTar loses to sub punch, gengar loses to curse and we have metagross now. Miltotic is probably its best counter. 

 

It seems to me you overlook particular moves that each of these pokemon can have.

A simple one to think about is. If snorlax is the final pokemon left and you have a gengar.

Well, gengar can use its own curse. Just so long as you can stall snorlax long enough to kill it in 4 turns you win.

I don't feel I need to go indepth with the explanation but If one of these pokemon won't kill the snorlax based on its moveset the other will.

Thats why the combo walls its pretty effectively

 

The fact is it's up to par with the other Uber pokemon which Is why I persist in saying let it return uber.

Again another of your opinions  remember Opinions are the least valuable type of information here.

So targeting me in specific does that mean you support it to stay in the OU Tier?

If so why?

 

I see no other reason to leave it in Ou tier rather than to add more RNG and avoid a chansey meta.

We don't need to provide a reason to keep it here, there needs to be a reason to move it to ubers, and just saying its as good as other uber pokemon doesn't really count. 

 

Reasons have already been provided with why we should remove it and the majority of players seems to agree with said reasoning.

 

An offensive spdef wall like snorlax with a damaging stab move that causes 51% paralysis in a few spams seems incredibly unhealthy.

Paralyzing a pokemon doesn't suddenly render it ineffective.
 

^^^^ that's a terrible terrible response.

The para is prevalent, includes stab with a more than decent amount of power and does end up being game changing by the end of the battle in almost every single scenario.

VIEW THOSE VIDEOS PLZ!!!

 

Doesn't milotic with recover and haze vs snorlax with curse body slam rest and return seem like a huge stall fest as the last pokemon out of 6 on each side?

Crazy how a counter ends up stalling in a 1v1 situation

This response was to show that Stalling chansey wont be any worse than MILOTIC VS SNORLAX at the end of the match.

 

 

Soooo

Isn't the current health of competitive OU what this discussion is about?

The fact stands that snorlax poses a huge threat on multiple levels and its best counters are uber.

Something must be done about this.

[Gunthug]

Just now, Thunderprime said:

Your wrong at the begining there is a similar characteristic to snorlax and gengar. They both got high stats yeah but they also both got an incredibly large movepool that makes them able to beat almost every other pokes including their counters. Snorlax has the bulk while gengar has the immunities.

yeah ok, then snorlax is also similar to nidoking and wigglytuff. Should we start discussing those as well?

 

My point was that gengar is uber for a different reason than snorlax, and while both are versatile they both accomplish different goals in different ways (gengar is almost always a sweeper/annoyer, while lax is usually a tank or a curse sweeper)

[Thunderprime]

Why you bring these pokes in the discussion thats not the same at all.. Gengar got specially banned for its gimmicks and large movepool if i remember.

 

But yeah gengar not the subject here

[Gunthug]

Just now, Thunderprime said:

Why you bring these pokes in the discussion thats not the same at all.. Gengar got specially banned for its gimmicks and large movepool if i remember.

 

But yeah gengar not the subject here

Lol that was my original point: why are unrelated pokemon (like gengar ttar dnite) being brought into the discussion? So if you agree, then why did you quote me?

[Thunderprime]

Just now, Gunthug said:

Lol that was my original point: why are unrelated pokemon (like gengar ttar dnite) being brought into the discussion? So if you agree, then why did you quote me?

I showed you a similarity between gengar and snorlax that fits uber characteristic because you said they were completely different. I mean if snorlax could only have curse set it still would be a pain, but would not fit in ubers. For me the main treath when I face snorlax is usually a sub set.

[Hotarubi]

5 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Lol that was my original point: why are unrelated pokemon (like gengar ttar dnite) being brought into the discussion? So if you agree, then why did you quote me?

I bring them up because I'm making conversation regarding counters and checks to this individual pokemon and also making comparison about similar pokemon which have been banned already and trying to help correlate the reasons why.

It was banned before. LF it to get banned again.

 

I'm not suggesting anything gets brought down from uber tier, however I am suggesting and backing that snorlax get thrown into the darkest part of the closet in the uber tier only to be seen in doubles events, RIP you fat ugly thing.

4 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

Cuz we somehow let Hotarubi post here

You don't have any control over me posting or over my opinions.

Focus on this Tier Change and conversation not on me Lifestyle.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Hotarubi

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, Thunderprime said:

I showed you a similarity between gengar and snorlax that fits uber characteristic because you said they were completely different. I mean if snorlax could only have curse set it still would be a pain, but would not fit in ubers. For me the main treath when I face snorlax is usually a sub set.

You completely missed the point though. Gengar was banned for being an Offensive Uber. Snorlax is not an Offensive Uber and is being discussed for being potentially uncompetitive and/or unhealthy. The comparison between the two simply should not be made as we all agree Snorlax does not "sweep the majority of the OU tier" as Gengar did. 

 

Gunthug was simply stating that we should be comparing Snorlax to the traits that got Blissey banned, which were traits that were deemed unhealthy.