bl0nde Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Zangoose: C Slow and fragile at the same time? Its good ability and Attack STAT are tempting but it definitely wishes it could live more than one Slowbro Surf upon switching in. Who gives a fuck if you have elemental punches, so does everything else. I think I ranked zangoose too high now that I look at it. edit: robo's ranks on page 3 I flipped the page on him sry robo. Azumarill: B- huge power. belly drum. waterfall. sub. ?? Special defense wall Umbreon: A Low A because Pursuit, Cleric, good defenses on both sides and wish supporter. I am bias. Miltank: B Almost a snorlax. Almost. Gardevoir: B Haven't ever seen one used yet tbh. Can't give much input Seems like a slower and slightly bulkier alakazam. Slaking: B+++ if A very low A ouch if it gets good prediction Hariyama: B thick fat and guts are both good. Can run bulk set, phaze, knock off, etc. goodbye HP Ghost. Wailord: C Howcome no one uses this? It must be a UU poke maybe. Claydol: B- Good defenses and good spinner but weak to pursuit and cant hit anything hard without calm mind or explosion. You have to squeeze your butt cheeks tight with this to spin against a cloyster spiker. Absol: B- Cant take a hit but sure can put one out. Pursuit stab. Edited February 16, 2015 by bl0nde Link to comment
Robofiend Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think I ranked zangoose too high now that I look at it. edit: robo's ranks on page 3 I flipped the page on him sry robo. Azumarill: B- huge power. belly drum. waterfall. sub. ?? Special defense wall Umbreon: A Low A because Pursuit, Cleric, good defenses on both sides and wish supporter. I am bias. Miltank: B Almost a snorlax. Almost. Gardevoir: B Haven't ever seen one used yet tbh. Can't give much input Seems like a slower and slightly bulkier alakazam. Slaking: B+++ if A very low A ouch if it gets good prediction Hariyama: B thick fat and guts are both good. Can run bulk set, phaze, knock off, etc. goodbye HP Ghost. Wailord: C Howcome no one uses this? It must be a UU poke maybe. Claydol: B- Good defenses and good spinner but weak to pursuit and cant hit anything hard without calm mind or explosion. You have to squeeze your butt cheeks tight with this to spin against a cloyster spiker. Absol: B- Cant take a hit but sure can put one out. Pursuit stab. If you look at the criteria for ranking, you seem to be regularly overranking things. Wailord's D rank as far as I'm concerned, Claydol miiiiight be a B (but Quake/Slide aren't common enough to justify it) and Absol's weak and slow. Azumarill can't break most walls naturally, is slow, and even if you Bellydrum you're just going to die to a special sweeper the next turn. Gyarados and Kingdra are far scarier as Waterfall users. Gardevoir is probably C rank, although Trace is good, Porygon2 is more defensive and abuses it better. Gardevoir's bad speed and vulnerability to Shadow Ball, Pursuit, Crunch and… pretty much every other physical attack makes it C rank. Umbreon's definitely B (or B-) rank, it's weak to fighting (unlike Vaporeon) and even if it can Pursuit, its attack stat is too low to really make it a threat. Vapo and Blissey outclass it as a specially defensive cleric. Hariyama is probably B-, it's got bulk but again, is slow and well resisted. Knock off is annoying, but even with Guts this thing is just a slower, less scary Heracross. Miltank can be pretty annoying and can function well as a cleric. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the movepool options that Snorlax has (Crunch, Pursuit) and the need for clerics is relatively low on balanced offense teams that currently rule the meta. It's outclassed by Curselax on offense and outclassed by Blissey/Vaporeon (somewhat) on defense. Link to comment
DrCraig Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think I ranked zangoose too high now that I look at it. edit: robo's ranks on page 3 I flipped the page on him sry robo. Azumarill: B- huge power. belly drum. waterfall. sub. ?? D or C, it isn't that good. Special defense wall Umbreon: A Low A because Pursuit, Cleric, good defenses on both sides and wish supporter. I am bias. I'd go with B because it has like no offensive pressure outside of pursuit, thus its a sitting duck. Miltank: B Almost a snorlax. Almost. B seems fitting, the Curse set can be very effective with support, and probably the wall can do alright but not the best. Gardevoir: B Haven't ever seen one used yet tbh. Can't give much input Seems like a slower and slightly bulkier alakazam. Yea, B. Wall/Tank set > Sweeper Slaking: B+++ if A very low A ouch if it gets good prediction idk Hariyama: B thick fat and guts are both good. Can run bulk set, phaze, knock off, etc. goodbye HP Ghost. sure Wailord: C Howcome no one uses this? It must be a UU poke maybe. Irrelevant. Claydol: B- Good defenses and good spinner but weak to pursuit and cant hit anything hard without calm mind or explosion. You have to squeeze your butt cheeks tight with this to spin against a cloyster spiker. B* Absol: B- Cant take a hit but sure can put one out. Pursuit stab. Irrelevant. Link to comment
Asunamaster12 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 wow people are overestimating arcanine. that thing isn't A rank.. Link to comment
bl0nde Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 yep, ty robo thought it was A to C only. I did not re-read the opening post, my bad. Mostly I was just going through the Pokedex on veekun.com and throwing something out there to help get the ball rolling. Good luck guys. Robofiend and DrCraig 2 Link to comment
DrCraig Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 wow people are overestimating arcanine. that thing isn't A rank..Give reasoning or don't post Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Give reasoning or don't post its a fire type. everyone knows fire types are bad fredrichnietze, felix, DoctorPBC and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Shaniqualela Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 its a fire type. everyone knows fire types are bad Would BURNTzebra be a fire type? Rekt Pretty much agree with robos rankings. I would give azumarill like C+ the choice band set is really freakin strong, and so is the subpunch set Link to comment
DrCraig Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Idk where everybody is getting these '+' and '-' stuff from but Azumarill is probably a C or D. Azumarill seems bulky, but it is pretty hard to switch in imo. It needs a lot of support to be effective because it is so easily checked or countered. Nevertheless it does have the potential, but I dont think the pressure is there. Edited February 16, 2015 by DrCraig Link to comment
Shaniqualela Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Idk where everybody is getting these '+' and '-' stuff from but Azumarill is probably a C or D. Azumarill seems bulky, but it is pretty hard to switch in imo. It needs a lot of support to be effective because it is so easily checked or countered. Nevertheless it does have the potential, but I dont think the pressure is there. Smogon uses +/- in their rankings for everything except S http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-thread-check-post-2359.3521602/ Link to comment
DrCraig Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Smogon uses +/- in their rankings for everything except S http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-thread-check-post-2359.3521602/this isn't smogon btw We don't use those on every rank Edited February 16, 2015 by DrCraig Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 wow people are overestimating arcanine. that thing isn't A rank.. intimidate impish/relax 252 hp/def leftovers overheat or hp grass morning sun extreme speed toxic or crunch run the calcs kid and dont forget intimidate as it is important. also imo p2 should not be A rank. superpower is a major problem for p2 and it does not have the offensive presence to stop many of the cb super users from switching in. (@robo tri attack 20% chance of status with 6.66666....% each) i still see meta/gyara as A+ not S. meta has 4mss so coverage is a problem. gyara has too many counters and checks that NEED him to set up and surprise hp electric will kill him off quick. stab water is nice but bulky waters everywhere so... slaking C at best. truant hurts azumaril should be running cb + waterfall/i punch/superpower/normal attack and it's C at best. it's value is it's ability to switch in vs bulky waters and hit them hard enough to force a switch, but not bulky enough to do the job well in ou. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 also imo p2 should not be A rank. superpower is a major problem for p2 and it does not have the offensive presence to stop many of the cb super users from switching in. (@robo tri attack 20% chance of status with 6.66666....% each) It checks Gyara, Arc (if no D-kick), Weezing, Gengar (getrekt by Psy/Sb), Flygon (Trace Levitate vs. Quake), Jolteon, Slowbro and Skarmory pretty well.. and 20% of hax is pretty stronk for a STAB base 80 move.. Oh and instant recovery is really nice. Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Venusaur for B. 1. No necessity to drop to a shit Nature (Neutral or -Spe) to run Dual Stab, which are both now Special (Giga and Sludge Bomb = Bold OP) 2. Sleep Powder + Leech Seed is still nasty to set-up pokes like Lax, Gyara, and Slowbro 3. Sludge Bomb poops on Ludicolo and Sceptile who have trouble taking it down 4. Bulk provides a reliable pivot against a lot of attacks 5. Eats up Jolteon without Fake Tears 6. Resists fighting attacks (think stupid Superpower spam) 7. Also has reliable healing move (Synthesis) Gengar straight up wrecks it though, thus B. Link to comment
codylramey Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) intimidate impish/relax 252 hp/def leftovers overheat or hp grass morning sun extreme speed toxic or crunch run the calcs kid and dont forget intimidate as it is important. also imo p2 should not be A rank. superpower is a major problem for p2 and it does not have the offensive presence to stop many of the cb super users from switching in. (@robo tri attack 20% chance of status with 6.66666....% each) i still see meta/gyara as A+ not S. meta has 4mss so coverage is a problem. gyara has too many counters and checks that NEED him to set up and surprise hp electric will kill him off quick. stab water is nice but bulky waters everywhere so... slaking C at best. truant hurts azumaril should be running cb + waterfall/i punch/superpower/normal attack and it's C at best. it's value is it's ability to switch in vs bulky waters and hit them hard enough to force a switch, but not bulky enough to do the job well in ou. What counters does gyara have? And plz dont include things that would have to run HP electric JUST for gyara, Im sure he has some counters but not many at all. But anything that outspeeds and runs a viable electric move does check it. So i do see him as being a pokemon with many checks and not many counters. Which would be fine if we had team preview but its hard to check something until you know they have it. Metagross can use another move true, but i dont think his 4mms is as crippling as you make it seem. What actually walls tpunch eq meteormash. And even the walls usually cant do much to it. Fortress being the exception. And most things tha wall it will have to do it over and over again bc metagross has an extremely easy time coming in on most spcl walls and anything locked into rock slide and predicted move that is included in his large list of resistances. Edited February 16, 2015 by codylramey Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 It checks Gyara, Arc (if no D-kick), Weezing, Gengar (getrekt by Psy/Sb), Flygon (Trace Levitate vs. Quake), Jolteon, Slowbro and Skarmory pretty well.. and 20% of hax is pretty stronk for a STAB base 80 move.. Oh and instant recovery is really nice. toxic arcanine weezing carrying ps + s bomb/wow can beat it if weez wow's on switch then ps's and attacks. flygon can superpower so either a risk, or your are hoping your opponent does not switch after using EQ. jolt it solid counters. bro it solid counters unless cm set + no toxic on p2. skarm forced out. thing is 4mss you need bolt to force out gyara/skarm/waters, you need beam to scare out flygon, you need tri attack for status/damage, and psychic for gar/weez, and toxic to hit walls with no rest. also machamp can switch in vs anything and cross/super hariyama can switch in vs anything and cross/sper ursaring can switch vs anything and cross/super medicham can switch vs most things and hjk flygon can switch vs most things and super snor can switch vs anything and super even aggron can switch in and shite on p2. there are numerous other examples but the TL;DR is p2 cant tank a strong fight attack and those are everywhere. What counters does gyara have? And plz dont include things that would have to run HP electric JUST for gyara, Im sure he has some counters but not many at all. But anything that outspeeds and runs a viable electric move does check it. So i do see him as being a pokemon with many checks and not many counters. Which would be fine if we had team preview but its hard to check something until you know they have it. -hp electric slowbro (ice beam + hp electric coverage is great and also for vs other waters like slowbro, starm, vapo, and lapras) -p2 /w tbolt -vapo /w hp electric (guess what? bolt/beam coverage is great and dissuades starm from switching in) -bliss -lapras -weezing -kangas cb set -others check my post here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/50353-phase-ii-pokemmo-with-iv-physicalspecial-split-suspect-testing-dragonite-and-gyarados/?p=984701 and about metagross, read frags post it was good. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 stuff Yeah, I mean Porygod doesn't stop everything with one moveset, but it's pretty versatile as a pivot. You can even run Facade to hit Blissey/Lax if you're feeling angsty about them always switching in. Cody, Gyara is quickly countered by : -Porygod -Weezing -HP Electric Waters -Tbolt Gyara and checked by: -RockSlide Heracross (lives +1 Waterfall) -Tpunch Metalgross (lives +1 EQ) -Skarmory (huehue u wish you had Taunt) -CB Flygon/Kangas (live +1 Waterfall) Adamant Gyara has a better chance of breaking these checks but is stopped by Jolteon. Jolly is a pretty stronk nature because of Jolt coverage but those 2HKO's can easily leave Gyarados burned by a Tpunch when its opponent doesn't flinch. Link to comment
codylramey Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 P2 is good Vapo with hp electric is completely centralizing. While bolt beam is good, its best when the poke using it has a stab on one of those moves. Vapo is much better off using wish, protect, healbell, or even surf in place of HP electric. Sure it hits starmie but lax is a common switch into vapo soo not really gonna do much for him there. Bliss is a very squishy counter. It doesnt 1hko gyara unless modest, gyara has a 41% chance to 2hko it at +1. If he waterfalls on the switch then bliss is forced to softboil or its not going to come bak in on gyra again. Lapras has 2% usage for a reason bro. Weezing is decent. Although idt it cant stop sub flail (lol) Waterfall 2hkos kanga so unless its runn DE its not gonna get the job done. And do you really want ur CBer to take all of that recoil. Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Waterfall 2hkos kanga so unless its runn DE its not gonna get the job done. And do you really want ur CBer to take all of that recoil. *thunderpunch fredrichnietze 1 Link to comment
codylramey Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 *thunderpunch Fuck forgot about that. Dont need CB for that tho thats why i assumed stab move. Also im not saying that gyara doesnt have counters. But he is S rank bc of the lack of Viable counters he has that doesnt have to give up a better move option for an electric move. He has a pleather of checks but if he comes in at the end of the game it may be too late to check him Link to comment
DrCraig Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Kanga running Tpunch shows how good Gyara is imo, since there is no reason to run Tpunch on Kanga. Edit: Not like people even run kanga Edited February 17, 2015 by DrCraig Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Fuck forgot about that. Dont need CB for that tho thats why i assumed stab move. Also im not saying that gyara doesnt have counters. But he is S rank bc of the lack of Viable counters he has that doesnt have to give up a better move option for an electric move. He has a pleather of checks but if he comes in at the end of the game it may be too late to check him hp electric is viable on several water types that i listed. i would not have listed it if it was not viable. everything i listed other then arguably lapras is viable. half of them are already on the OU viability thread which only has a dozen pokemon listed so far. Kanga running Tpunch shows how good Gyara is imo, since there is no reason to run Tpunch on Kanga. skarm, vapo(d edge has recoil), aero, slowbro (if you are not running crunch for some reason), starmie (see slowbro), other things i am too tired to think of? Link to comment
OldKeith Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Let's not forget a full Gyarados counter: bulky Breloom. Link to comment
DrCraig Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 skarm, vapo(d edge has recoil), aero, slowbro (if you are not running crunch for some reason), starmie (see slowbro), other things i am too tired to think of? All I hear is "Fire punch, Return, Who cares, Return, Return, etc." Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Fuck forgot about that. Dont need CB for that tho thats why i assumed stab move. Also im not saying that gyara doesnt have counters. But he is S rank bc of the lack of Viable counters he has that doesnt have to give up a better move option for an electric move. He has a pleather of checks but if he comes in at the end of the game it may be too late to check him If you play the game you'll notice that it isn't that easy to sweep with Gyarados. He does put a ton of pressure on your opponent, but he doesn't have that "get up and go" that you would assume. With Jolly +1 you just don't OHKO the things you need to. They in turn wreck your face with an electric-type more or some other hard hitting attack. I've found that while very resourceful, you just tend to come in, Dragon Dance, and are forced out. Without a +1 boost you just don't hit hard enough. Now if you can pull off a +2, now that's when you get scary. You still don't OHKO Blissey, Snorlax, Slowbro, Forretress, Weezing, Ludicolo, Vaporeon, Venusaur, Dusclops, Kingdra, Gyarados, Machamp, Swampert, or Umbreon. And each of those can pack an Electric-type attack to do massive damage or kill, a status move to cripple, or a strong STAB that can hurt as well. You even have trouble OHKO'ing Metagross with EQ with only 252 HP investment. All in all, Gyarados is a beast late-game, but it doesn't have the coverage or instant attacking power to sweep like an S-Rank should. Link to comment
Recommended Posts