OU Viability Thread

[OrangeManiac]

Lol curse lax sweeps stall. Anything else it's bad playing from the other player.

Yeah, like why won't the opponent use Explosion before a Snorlax uses its first Curse or send in a Medicham with a risk of almost dying + getting parahaxed from possible Body Slam? And Snorlax definitely only defeats stall and cannot set up against pretty much any special attacker in the tier. I really hope you aren't being serious here.

[Excelimpulse]

One curse won't kill the pokes used to force it out so yes I'm being serious. How often can curse lax set up against hyper offensive? Not much when you arnt using full special attackers usually like starmie.

And out of all the physical attackers you choose to argue with, you choose medicham.....one of the worst in the whole tier. No wondeR why people are crying about snorkax, your trying to use a almost uu poke.

[DrCraig]

One curse won't kill the pokes used to force it out so yes I'm being serious. How often can curse lax set up against hyper offensive? Not much when you arnt using full special attackers usually like starmie.

Not buying it. This is basically saying "CM Alakazam is shit because if you battle all physicals, it can't set up." Snorlax obviously can't set up on counters and checks, that's silly. In regular conditions, Snorlax easily puts up curses. Edited May 20, 2015 by DrCraig

[OrangeManiac]

And out of all the physical attackers you choose to argue with, you choose medicham.....one of the worst in the whole tier. No wondeR why people are crying about snorkax, your trying to use a almost uu poke.

 

I chose Medicham because it's the strongest attacker in the game not including Slaking. My whole point is that Fighting Stab attackers are pretty much the only Pokemon that will OHKO a +1 Snorlax.

Oh yeah, and the most common one in the tier..

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. +1 188 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 194-230 (74.9 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

while

 

+1 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 99-117 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

 

One curse won't kill the pokes used to force it out so yes I'm being serious. How often can curse lax set up against hyper offensive? Not much when you arnt using full special attackers usually like starmie.

This made me legit lol. Okay, I'll admit I don't know your definition of a good metagame but if anything you just prove how amazing Snorlax is with this comment. When you imply a hyper offensive team Pokemon can't be a full special attacker then it already tells how meta centralizing force a CurseLax is when you need to run Hyper Offensive physical attackers just to prevent to give a chance to CurseLax to sweep. S rank Pokemon does not mean it's unbeatable, it just means it's a Pokemon that defines the metagame. And if anything you just proved that with your comment.

[Excelimpulse]

Not buying it. This is basically saying "CM Alakazam is shit because if you battle all physicals, it can't set up." Snorlax obviously can't set up on counters and checks, that's silly. In regular conditions, Snorlax easily puts up curses.

When u admitted to running snorlax and blissey yeah it's going to.I have yet to have problems with curse lax. Maybe because I don't run pokes that say yes snorlax you can set up on me.

And if your going to use an example pls use one better then alakazam lol, when if anything you just proved why snorlax comes in freely and wrecks havoc.

[DrCraig]

When u admitted to running snorlax and blissey yeah it's going to.I have yet to have problems with curse lax. Maybe because I don't run pokes that say yes snorlax you can set up on me.
And if your going to use an example pls use one better then alakazam lol, when if anything you just proved why snorlax comes in freely and wrecks havoc.

What does this have to do with what I said lol

[Spoiler]and I guess saying I ran a blissey once means I'm bound to run it for eternity and punished to get set up on by snorax for eternity.[/spoiler]

Edit: Wtf is that word filter, perpetually? Edited May 20, 2015 by DrCraig

[Excelimpulse]

I chose Medicham because it's the strongest attacker in the game not including Slaking. My whole point is that Fighting Stab attackers are pretty much the only Pokemon that will OHKO a +1 Snorlax.

Oh yeah, and the most common one in the tier..

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. +1 188 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 194-230 (74.9 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

while

+1 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 99-117 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



This made me legit lol. Okay, I'll admit I don't know your definition of a good metagame but if anything you just prove how amazing Snorlax is with this comment. When you imply a hyper offensive team Pokemon can't be a full special attacker then it already tells how meta centralizing force a CurseLax is when you need to run Hyper Offensive physical attackers just to prevent to give a chance to CurseLax to sweep. S rank Pokemon does not mean it's unbeatable, it just means it's a Pokemon that defines the metagame. And if anything you just proved that with your comment.

Pretty sure if I run hyper offensive a smart stall player can still beat me. Each playstke can beat each other.

Try low kick. That made me lol Edited May 20, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[OrangeManiac]

Try low kick. That made me lol

 

 

> running a move that's majority of the time less powerful than Brick Break just because of Snorlax

> Snorlax isn't powerful

Okay, I'm done here.

Edited May 20, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Excelimpulse]

> running a move that's majority of the time less powerful than Brick Break just because of Snorlax
> Snorlax isn't powerful

Okay, I'm done here.

Lmfao. Low kick is far superior. Wow I'm not even going to argue with you. Everything that bb hits hard is beyond fat. you made me chuckle. Next time you try to call me out, atkeast have an argument rofl. Bb better then low kick majority of the time? Do you even play lol. Megagorn hits just as hard as bb against everything that isn't fat. look at all steels lol every wall except vap has huge weight which if you using bb against vap well That's why you have trouble against snorlax and other walls prolly to lol. Undervalueing low kick, I just died laughing. Unless your playing against caterpie and pika rofl bb then would be better. But in our meta with snorkax and every wall that hangs out at McDonalds including the steels, pretty sure low kick way to go. Edited May 20, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[ThinkNice]

> running a move that's majority of the time less powerful than Brick Break just because of Snorlax

> Snorlax isn't powerful

Okay, I'm done here.

Lol.... Okay man

[Vaeldras]

Yagami once listed  a few reasons why low kick is superior, with a long list of pokes too.

Wish i could find it again

[OrangeManiac]

Yagami once listed  a few reasons why low kick is superior, with a long list of pokes too.

Wish i could find it again

Yeah, I just calced the base power for the top 20 most used OUs and I have to admit Low Kick probably is superior. There wasn't really many Pokes that Low Kick hit under 80 Base Power and Snorlax and Metagross it hit with full 120 so I'm surprised I haven't seen many Low Kick CB Heras.

[Excelimpulse]

Yeah, I just calced the base power for the top 20 most used OUs and I have to admit Low Kick probably is superior. There wasn't really many Pokes that Low Kick hit under 80 Base Power and Snorlax and Metagross it hit with full 120 so I'm surprised I haven't seen many Low Kick CB Heras.

Slow adapting meta and people refuse to try new things or to look into stuff we now have access too. Hopefully you and a lot of other people open there eyes too the moves we have access to that can stop huge threats like curse lax.

[codylramey]

Slow adapting meta and people refuse to try new things or to look into stuff we now have access too. Hopefully you and a lot of other people open there eyes too the moves we have access to that can stop huge threats like curse lax.

Most of us already knew about lowkick heracross. Hes still only a check bc heracross cant comfortably come in on any of lax's attacking moves except crunch which ppl shouldnt be using anymore (unless youre poor like me and don have the patience to grind red shards.)

[ShucklePwnz]

Most of us already knew about lowkick heracross. Hes still only a check bc heracross cant comfortably come in on any of lax's attacking moves except crunch which ppl shouldnt be using anymore (unless youre poor like me and don have the patience to grind red shards.)

I wouldnt say that Fire Punch outclasses Crunch too much.  Fire Punch leaves your Lax more vulnerable to Bulky Gar switch ins and makes it weaker in a CM Slowbro vs Curselax fight.

 

So both moves can be more useful than the other depending on your team needs IMO.

[OrangeManiac]

Alright got bored, so here's some of my ranks for Pokemon that haven't been put on the list yet. Everyone currently there look pretty solid at the moment, in my opinion. Sorry if I state the obvious on some parts but whatever.


Snorlax - S(urprise)

- CurseLax really needs to be teambuild against or it destroys you and as a special defense tank it's usually way good to not use.

Blissey - A

- Really restricts your team building, if you don't bring that physical firepower then winning just could be impossible to you unless you successfully counterstall. However, easier to switch in against and gain momentum from than Snorlax, for example. If you're looking forward for the definition of "Walling significant part of the metagame" then Blissey couldn't fill that criteria any better.

Aerodactyl - B (B- rather if you wanna have minus ranks)

- It's fast and it can sweep. However the Choice Band with Rock Slide to Max Def Slowbro is maximum of 33% and against Max Def Weezing is max 37% so one of these two remaining and Aerodactyl will have hard time sweeping. Also not OHKOing the best special wall in the game while getting Thunderbolt'd/Ice Beamed/Countered sucks a lot. Aerodactyl has also a kinda nice counterstall niche with Pressure combined with Substitute, Protect and such stuff. A good teammate but not a Pokemon you need to really build against specifically, if you don't run any physical defense then there are a lot of Pokes that will destroy your team regardless.

Gardevoir - B

- Hope this doesn't sound too much bias for ranking Gardevoir to B since I used to run it as a regular basis but I really like its unpredictable factor and many roles it can fill. It can be a CM Sweeper, WOW + Pain Split tank and a Cleric. I oftentimes thought Garde just could be close to as good as Weezing as a WOW + Pain Split tank, except as a more special oriented wall. The biggest downfall for using Gardevoir over Weezing as such role was that Heracross destroys it and you really need stuff to counter that bug. CM set can easily surprise a Blissey-less team when your opponent tries to find a Pokemon to take the WOW but instead gets set up on. Trace is overall a great ability and will work as a check to Flygon really well as well as a counter to Gyarados with Trace Intimidate and Thunderbolt.

Kingdra - A

- Alright, this might leave you scratching your head but I'm really convinced Kingdra is this good. Dragon Dance set has now even replaced the old notorious - but easy to wall - Rain Dance set. The unpredictable factor still lives, it's not generally a good idea to bring a Skamory or Weezing directly against a Kingdra since the Surf from special attacker one will hurt. The superior one, the DD Kingdra can sweep really easily with two physical Stabs, Waterfall and Outrage. It's impossible to even teambuild against Kingdra because you can't really have idiot proof counters to it. Slowbro probably works the best but +2 DD Kingdra's Outrage already guaranteed 2HKOs a Slowbro while there's not much in can hit Kingdra back, except maybe slow it down with Thunder Wave. (But Outrage sets could run Lum or something)

Cloyster - B+

- The Spiker that cannot be trapped. What this means is that it can concentrate on what it wants to do - Spike and Spin - without being too scared of stuff. Works as a physical wall role filler very nicely and Explosion is amazing move which can be at best used to surprise a Blissey or Snorlax. Perhaps just way too prone to getting killed from any special attacker, much more than Skarmory and Forretress. 


Dusclops - B+ (or even A-)

- Alright, someone explain my why aren't people using this thing anymore. In my opinion the best wall in the game. The main reason why a clericless team will suffer is this Pokemon because there's nothing that will outright destroy a Dusclops, so it can put a lot of Will-O-Wisps around. Pretty much anything can do some stuff to it but no one can just beat it. Pressure is nice against counterstall teams.

Umbreon - B

- I see a lot of disrespect for Umbreon in OU tier but I've always considered it a legit threat. Nice supporter with Wish, Pursuit traps two of the scariest spec sweeper in the tier Gengar and Starmie (I know Gengar can be so much stuff but whatever). The biggest downfall is that Heracross counters it so ridiculously easily pretty much waiting to get set up on against Umbreon but as long it's partnered with Weezing or something that counters/checks Heracross then I think Umbreon is legit.

Blaziken - B+

- Some could say this "the inferior Heracross" but it definitely has its upsides. It cannot be countered nearly as easily as Heracross with a Weezing and when people are running Weezing and see that this is the physical threat they need to take care of, they might be in a trouble. Can be a solid Choice Bander or a Sub/Endure Reversals. Gyarados can't either reliably check Blaziken like it can Heracross (at least to some extent), then bringing a Blaziken instead of Heracross can sometimes be a good idea to defeat a Heracross-counter oriented team.

Starmie - B

- With Snorlax coming back in the tier, this amazing special sweeper just got some hard time sweeping teams now with multiple fatsos (Blissey AND Snorlax). A team with Starmie needs to try to destroy these two or one of these two (or some hipster running a stall Ludicolo still) and then it can sweep but it definitely needs support to succeed. A Spinner Starmie can fill a nice role too but it's not the only spinner out there.


Marowak - C+

- Nothing exactly horrible happened to Marowak after the update, it even got Fire Punch to deal Skarm and stuff but the usage went down so hard. As a Pokemon, Marowak is amazing. The very definition of a wallbreaker in such stall oriented metagame. However, Wak has really tough time beating the top 20 most used OUs (mainly because Bonemerang is so easy to switch against, so much LEVITATE) and therefor deserves the low rank. In any other metagame with such power it would be so much better.


Swampert - B+/A-

- Alright, I'll have to take credit for the commonness of CB Swampert as it was the first comp I made in Hoenn because I knew how awesome it was from ORAS UU era. It's next to impossible to counter, Slowbro is the only idiot proof counter to it. It can gain the momentum from a stall team so easily, pretty much like no Pokemon in the tier. Curse set has potential to sweep late game. Swampert is sometimes used as an overall wall but as that role I haven't seen it perform well.


Breloom - C

- It can perform in a one role nicely and that is taking the normal fatsos down. It can somewhat SubSeed when the fast part of the team is down, but it will most likely fail at anything other than that. CB or even SubPunch set is easy to predict against.

Espeon - C

- I've seen only one person running an Espeon effectively as a CM wall but that's it. I think that was from the team support so fits this rank. The fatsos shut this thing down hard, especially Snorlax. Also the effective way to run Espeon what I saw was CM + Psychic + Morning Sun + Reflect to protect from physical side hits but monoattacker has always its risks.

Edited May 23, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Arimanius]

Breloom - C

- It can perform in a one role nicely and that is taking the normal fatsos down. It can somewhat SubSeed when the fast part of the team is down, but it will most likely fail at anything other than that. CB or even SubPunch set is easy to predict against.

Man I think breloom has to be in another thread (UU), all the rest I agree with u except marowak, I think sub marowak is really good if u find a good moment to switch in

[codylramey]

Man I think breloom has to be in another thread (UU), all the rest I agree with u except marowak, I think sub marowak is really good if u find a good moment to switch in

is breloom still UU?

[londark]

is breloom still UU?

 

 

yeah, but doesn't really matter, as long as it's viable enough in OU then it can be placed here ( like Magneton, Forretress etc that were UU but still placed in the OU Viability Rank pre update )

[ThinkNice]

Update:

 

Snorlax: Unranked -> S

Gyarados: S > A+

Blissey: Unranked > A

Espeon: Unranked > C

Breloom: Unranked > C

Cloyster: Unranked > B+

Kingdra: Unrnaked > A

Rhydon: Unranked > B

Umbreon: Unranked > C

 

Snorlax: It’s the monster that we all know. The S of S rank secretly stands for ‘Schnorlax’

Gyarados: With the popularity of Weezing to counter/check both Heracross and Snorlax it’s hard for Gyarados to sweep. Seeing as at +1 it still can’t take down Blisssey either and gets completely shut down by +1 Vaporeon makes this mon fall out of S rank.

Blissey: There is no better special wall, it simply can’t be beaten by special attackers other than by Mono Espeon.

Breloom: Spore gives it a free turn, has a lot of trouble with Ghosts after losing HP Ghost.

Cloyster: Can check Snorlax and Spike and Spin more freely than Forretress. It doesn’t outclass Forretress though due to inferior defensive typing.

Kingdra: Mixed set can be extremely effective.

Rhydon: One of the only true offensive counters to Snorlax in the metagame, can also stop Weezing and Arcanine effectively with a Substitute.

Umbreon: It’s ok, but Vaporeon does his job better. Gengar often runs Sub Disable that shuts down the Pursuit trapping, making it only okay against Starmie. It has a small niche but gets outclassed by Vaporeon in the other aspects which makes Umbreon not able to get in the B ranks.

[RysPicz]

‘Schnorlax’

*

Schnorlacks

 

Also is P2 really that viable for a B+ rank?

[Arimanius]

yeah, but doesn't really matter, as long as it's viable enough in OU then it can be placed here ( like Magneton, Forretress etc that were UU but still placed in the OU Viability Rank pre update )

Oh I thought it was only OU pokes, then I apologize, didn't know that

[OrangeManiac]

Aand continuing with some ranks and why I think that way. If I have some UU stuff here then it's only because I couldn't decide how viable the more used stuff in OU is because I haven't seen them perform enough.


Ursaring - B

- With the amount of physical presence in the tier and therefor a lot of Will-O-Wisping (especially because the amount of Weezing) combined with no team preview, this thing can destroy with Guts. It cannot sweep but it can break walls with the power no other can. Kinda mediocre stats for an OU, though. Also if you're already running the two Normal fatsos then having a 3rd normal type generally isn't worth it.


Charizard - C+

- Offensively jack of all trades but master of none. Hard to counter and the existence of Belly Drum set keeps the opposing player on their toes. The increased usage of Arcanine makes sure there's always priority to stop this set so Belly Drum sweeping is very situational. It can do cool stuff like Sunny Beam sweep with Blaze and stuff but special walling in OU is too real. Dragon Dance Charizard's damage output isn't just good enough.


Alakazam - C

 

- Needs support to take the fatsos down more than anyone else in the tier. Dugtrio can't even with certainty kill a Blissey (because Hail) and Snorlax (because Whirlwind) and this might be a huge reason why Dugtrio + Alakazam combo isn't common. Also getting countered by Dark types hard suck and getting trapped by Umbreon. Yeah it can Signal Beam and blah blah but I can see why people aren't using the wizard.

 

 

 

Slaking - C+/B

- Slaking isn't just THAT bad even with having the worst ability in the game. I feel like the reason why people don't use it is because they don't wanna lose the way Slaking loses. I don't see a lot of faster than Slaking Pokemon using that much Substitute or Protect (Jolteon and Gengar mainly uses Sub) and slower than Slaking don't that oftentimes run Protect (only mainly Vaporeon/Umbreon). Slaking will get a lot of chances and it wallbreaks like no other Pokemon in the tier. The coverage is pretty good meaning nothing switches in without risk. After killing something Slaking suddenly becomes really prone to set up sweepers, such as Gyarados and Heracross but both of those can be countered with the right team. The way Slaking user would lose, to predict-free Protects and Substitutes is the reason why people don't run it as much as they should. It's way too unreliable.

 

 

Claydol - C/C+

- Yes, it's a UU but it can Spin. It can Levitate. It can Explode. Movepool isn't too bad. I feel like people started to feel Claydol has no spot in the OU tier after prior to update it got moved down to UU and it still is there after the tiers were remade.


Miltank - D

- There is no point of using this over Snorlax. YAY IT CAN HEAL BELL WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

 

Sorry ThinkNice, don't ban me from PSL. 

 

 

Tauros - C

- Good but just good. Kinda predictable since its movepool isn't amazing but Intimidate is nice. I guess.


Linoone - C

- Belly Drum set can still do some work but a lot of steel, Espeed Arcanine make it way too unreliable.


Slowking - C

- No point of using over Slowbro. I guess easier to set up against Special Sweepers but just meh.

Scizor - D

- Getting trapped sucks. As a CBer, not amazing. Not really even a wall with Morning Sun, so much stuff works better as phys tank.

Dodrio - D

- Bad movepool, way too predictable Flail sweeper. A lot of steel types in OU and Espeed Arcanine makes sure this barely can kill more than one Pokemon like ever.

Venusaur - B/C+

- Pretty versatile, but not really an amazing tank or doesn't sweep. Leech Seed against the fatsos is the main reason why it's good as well making stuff sleep is kinda cool. Needs Ludi to be viable to have usage since that's the main use of Sludge Bomb. Counters Vaporeon nicely.

Machamp - B

- It has really good ability, Guts, meaning that the premiere physical wall cannot Will-O-Wisp it. Really good wallbreaker, but Slowbro's existence is the reason why Machamp doesn't have a lot of usage to me. But it still can ThunderPunch doing some damage to it and such. Cannot sweep but it's still alright, especially because fatsos are nice to get out of the match.
 

Edited May 23, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[DrCraig]

I'd put Ursa at B+

Ursa is such a force in my opinion through SD, Bulk Up and CB sets. It is pretty unavoidable taking a big from Ursa. Problem is its bulk and speed which require it to need some support when coming in.

[ThinkNice]

I get Ursaring for B+, but IMO Machamp does not deserve the B rank. Ursaring outclasses him in his task as Ursaring is way better at wall breaking with Normal STAB + coverage, Whereas Machamp has a SAB that is easily walled by most physical walls. Machamp has the niche of OHKOing the big Spdef walls but it can't break through physical cores. Ursaring can do both and has a way better tool for wallbreaking in Swords Dance.

 

Ursaring B+

Machamp C I'd say