OU Viability Thread

[OldKeith]

Now ou is border line tier imo. It's just bad and salty. I miss the days of prediction and less rng from snorkax body slam and a para hax blissey. Now it's just every game who can have the most luck. Or I have been getting in some really unlucky games lately.

 

The Body Slam Paralysis rate has not changed, and Para-Hax is still 25% likely to happen every turn.

[DoctorPBC]

The Body Slam Paralysis rate has not changed, and Para-Hax is still 25% likely to happen every turn.

 

30%*

[OldKeith]

30%*

 

In general, a paralyzed Pokémon runs a 25% risk of losing their turn due to full paralysis. In addition, the afflicted Pokémon's Speed decreases to 25%. The specifics work differently between generations.

 

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Paralysis_(status_condition)

[DoctorPBC]

In general, a paralyzed Pokémon runs a 25% risk of losing their turn due to full paralysis. In addition, the afflicted Pokémon's Speed decreases to 25%. The specifics work differently between generations.

 

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Paralysis_(status_condition)

 

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Body_Slam_%28move%29

 

Hue thought you meant the rate at which it gets parad from body slam, not the turns it gets immovable.

 

 

Huehhueuhueuhueuhueuhgueu Doc trying to be a smartass falls flat on face

[Excelimpulse]

I know what the stupid rates are but the 30% chance of it hitting is feels way higher then 30% and when we didn't have the 50 bans in place snorlax spamming body slam wasn't really an issue. Now it's wall and stall. You can't run hyper offensive teams because of the bans and we have one viable mix sweeper which is blaziken In the tier. literally wall and stall is now > and there is no balance. But I like how now it isn't an issue that you cant run hyper offensive teams because there based around cb and a wall and stall team can complete handle every other play style.

We have decent hard hitters but nothing that can break anything with the lack of the 3 main mix attackers.

And on top of that kingdra literally has free set up late game and can sweep with very little effort. And you can't even prepaire for it because it could go special.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[OrangeManiac]

Now it's wall and stall.

 

This table pretty much disagrees with you. 7-8 walls/bulky Pokemon from the 15 most used. Seems pretty fair ratio to me.
 

 

We have decent hard hitters but nothing that can break anything with the lack of the 3 main mix attackers.

Not sure what makes you think mixed attackers are good but I can tell you that 90% of the Dnites and Ttars were fully physical before and after the update.

Skarmory being the main defensive wall, it's not that hard to play around it with physical attackers anymore anyways. So many things has access to elepunches and with some prediction any good physical attacker can break through Skarmory. Not to mention you have Magneton to deal with that and Forretress.

[codylramey]

Blaze, arcanine, and gengar can serve as decent mixed attackers. Also idk what meta you are playing in buut we don't have 50 bans and it is still not wall n stall meta.

[Excelimpulse]

This table pretty much disagrees with you. 7-8 walls/bulky Pokemon from the 15 most used. Seems pretty fair ratio to me.



Not sure what makes you think mixed attackers are good but I can tell you that 90% of the Dnites and Ttars were fully physical before and after the update.

Skarmory being the main defensive wall, it's not that hard to play around it with physical attackers anymore anyways. So many things has access to elepunches and with some prediction any good physical attacker can break through Skarmory. Not to mention you have Magneton to deal with that and Forretress.

Did you seriously just pull a table from when dnite was not banned? Like honestly that table is completky irrelevant to what it is now.

Magneton as an argument to come in on walls yeah that's fantastic.

were left with metagross blaziken and gengar For mix. Let's get real, 2 are mainly cb. The third is well whatever the hell you want it to be.

And running kingdra with magneton you can argue that it's the same thing as having mence and the other dragons with it.

[Gunthug]

Did you seriously just pull a table from when dnite was not banned? Like honestly that table is completky irrelevant to what it is now.

Magneton as an argument to come in on walls yeah that's fantastic.

were left with metagross blaziken and gengar For mix. Let's get real, 2 are mainly cb. The third is well whatever the hell you want it to be.

And running kingdra with magneton you can argue that it's the same thing as having mence and the other dragons with it.

I agree with your first point that usage stats are pretty misleading now with dnite banned. However I still think you're exaggerating the effectiveness of wall and stall. like I've said before, it's actually a viable playstyle again, but I'm still seeing hyper offense teams more often than stall.

Also running kingdra with mag is NOT the same as having the other Dragons with it and you know it. Kingdra absolutely needs one turn of set up to be effective, and enough things resist/are immune to waterfall that getting it locked into outrage isn't that difficult. But if you honestly think kingdra, which is a good poke don't get me wrong, is on the same level as mence/dnite then you're as delusional as you seem.

[Excelimpulse]

I agree with your first point that usage stats are pretty misleading now with dnite banned. However I still think you're exaggerating the effectiveness of wall and stall. like I've said before, it's actually a viable playstyle again, but I'm still seeing hyper offense teams more often than stall.

Also running kingdra with mag is NOT the same as having the other Dragons with it and you know it. Kingdra absolutely needs one turn of set up to be effective, and enough things resist/are immune to waterfall that getting it locked into outrage isn't that difficult. But if you honestly think kingdra, which is a good poke don't get me wrong, is on the same level as mence/dnite then you're as delusional as you seem.

Kingdra isn't as good as them with them in it. Kingdra is LIKE them . Meaning it still can sweep fairly easy. AnD even if u get locked into outrage, who says that confusion is going to stop it. And with propers evs kingdra gets two turns too set up not only one.

And like I have Saud earlier, stall and wall is viable but when you know that's what's coming in touramsnts and against players that are not joking around , I can say that hyper offensive teams really can't force them out. With one wrong prediction and the offensive is now gone .

[fredrichnietze]

The Body Slam Paralysis rate has not changed, and Para-Hax is still 25% likely to happen every turn.

 

 

30%*

 

^this

which means 2x bslams have a 51% chance of paralyzing. as support for things like sub/SD hera and belly char, this is very very good.

[ThinkNice]

I know what the stupid rates are but the 30% chance of it hitting is feels way higher then 30% and when we didn't have the 50 bans in place snorlax spamming body slam wasn't really an issue. Now it's wall and stall. You can't run hyper offensive teams because of the bans and we have one viable mix sweeper which is blaziken In the tier. literally wall and stall is now > and there is no balance. But I like how now it isn't an issue that you cant run hyper offensive teams because there based around cb and a wall and stall team can complete handle every other play style.

We have decent hard hitters but nothing that can break anything with the lack of the 3 main mix attackers.

And on top of that kingdra literally has free set up late game and can sweep with very little effort. And you can't even prepaire for it because it could go special.

Can you stop spewing bullshit in every thread you go in? No seriously, everyone is sicking tired of your arguments that easily get deflected. You don't even counter these arguments, you just copy paste what you say in literally every post with the use of different words. If we are lucky you spice it up by messing with the order of your 'arguments'.

 

The argument you make here makes absolutely zero sense. How was Body Slam paralysis less of a problem when we had Tyranitar, Dragonite and Salamence? Are you saying that they somehow magically twisted the RNG numbers of the paralysis rate of Body Slam? Are you saying Snorlax didn't run Body Slam when these three were around? Are you saying that Snorlax was on less teams with these three around? Because all of them are not true. The meta is still heavily in favor of physical attackers, so you can't argue that Snorlax has more opportunities to switch in and Body Slam either. If you are not going to think about anything you say, or you just expect us to correct you on your nonsensical bullcrap everything you pull something out, just stop posting.

The most laughable part of this argument of yours is that you say it wasn't an issue that Snorlax was spamming Body Slam before the bans. Too bad that the bans that we had would be hurt by a parahax the most, as they are the sweepers of everyone's team. Which in itself, just destroys your whole argumentation.

 

Your next point on special attackers is also not only false, but it also doesn't make sense. The meta never favored mixed attackers anyway and they didn't help fight against 'wall&stall'. It has also been pointed out that the bans we have in place now were almost never run mixed, mostly fully physical. There are also still enough Pokémon that can run mixed easily, they are just not as overwhelming as let's say Salamence in that regard.

 

Do I even have to break a part why Kingdra does not even come close to the power of the Big Three? His special set is really meh and even easier walled than his physical set. It does not have the raw power of any of the Three, his STABs are way easier dealt with because it has to rely on Outrage. His mixed set is also really 'meh' as opposed to the other three as it doesn't get moves like Fire Blast and Thunder, which are really essential otherwise. It wouldn't even force out Snorlax as it can just Curse with your Dragon Dances and sweep your team afterwards.

 

------

Your philosophy on tiering has been proven wrong many times. You don't want anything banned and say a metagame has to favor prediction. If you were an actually good player, you would immediately know how foolish and naive this statement is. More than prediction, this game rewards consistency and a grasp on risk versus reward more than anything. Only you think that with a metagame with all three unbanned there is balance. Guess what, we tried it. It was ridiculous. A metagame can't be settled with a mere one or two bans.

 

Your arguments are hypocritical, misinformed and often use logical fallacies. I'm sick of seeing them in every thread and henceforth I won't be replying to any more of your posts until you get yourself checked. While you don't want the meta to be come wall&stall, it seems like you only want hyper offense to be viable, now what justifies the one above the other? I'll give you a little hint, nothing does.

 

----

 

Smogon uses +/- in their rankings for everything except S
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-thread-check-post-2359.3521602/

Smogon also has like 100 more Pokémon to rank than we do. So therefore I don't use +/- in the lower ranks.

[Excelimpulse]

Can you stop spewing bullshit in every thread you go in? No seriously, everyone is sicking tired of your arguments that easily get deflected. You don't even counter these arguments, you just copy paste what you say in literally every post with the use of different words. If we are lucky you spice it up by messing with the order of your 'arguments'.

The argument you make here makes absolutely zero sense. How was Body Slam paralysis less of a problem when we had Tyranitar, Dragonite and Salamence? Are you saying that they somehow magically twisted the RNG numbers of the paralysis rate of Body Slam? Are you saying Snorlax didn't run Body Slam when these three were around? Are you saying that Snorlax was on less teams with these three around? Because all of them are not true. The meta is still heavily in favor of physical attackers, so you can't argue that Snorlax has more opportunities to switch in and Body Slam either. If you are not going to think about anything you say, or you just expect us to correct you on your nonsensical bullcrap everything you pull something out, just stop posting.
The most laughable part of this argument of yours is that you say it wasn't an issue that Snorlax was spamming Body Slam before the bans. Too bad that the bans that we had would be hurt by a parahax the most, as they are the sweepers of everyone's team. Which in itself, just destroys your whole argumentation.

Your next point on special attackers is also not only false, but it also doesn't make sense. The meta never favored mixed attackers anyway and they didn't help fight against 'wall&stall'. It has also been pointed out that the bans we have in place now were almost never run mixed, mostly fully physical. There are also still enough Pokémon that can run mixed easily, they are just not as overwhelming as let's say Salamence in that regard.

Do I even have to break a part why Kingdra does not even come close to the power of the Big Three? His special set is really meh and even easier walled than his physical set. It does not have the raw power of any of the Three, his STABs are way easier dealt with because it has to rely on Outrage. His mixed set is also really 'meh' as opposed to the other three as it doesn't get moves like Fire Blast and Thunder, which are really essential otherwise. It wouldn't even force out Snorlax as it can just Curse with your Dragon Dances and sweep your team afterwards.

------

Your philosophy on tiering has been proven wrong many times. You don't want anything banned and say a metagame has to favor prediction. If you were an actually good player, you would immediately know how foolish and naive this statement is. More than prediction, this game rewards consistency and a grasp on risk versus reward more than anything. Only you think that with a metagame with all three unbanned there is balance. Guess what, we tried it. It was ridiculous. A metagame can't be settled with a mere one or two bans.

Your arguments are hypocritical, misinformed and often use logical fallacies. I'm sick of seeing them in every thread and henceforth I won't be replying to any more of your posts until you get yourself checked. While you don't want the meta to be come wall&stall, it seems like you only want hyper offense to be viable, now what justifies the one above the other? I'll give you a little hint, nothing does.

----

Smogon also has like 100 more Pokémon to rank than we do. So therefore I don't use +/- in the lower ranks.

Snorlax doesn't have an easier time coming in now????what???

And guess what you didn't try it With all 3. Mence was banned in .000004 seconds. So don't spill me that crap.

Kingdra gets walled easily by curse lax rofl. That's assuming it's at full health. And you named one poke that has a chance at it. One...

I'm sick of being be littled by you guys when one I was right before when you guys went on ban hammer frenzy and you guys will never admit it. And 2 you guys all said even with the split we prolly won't even have too ban a lot of pokes. But here we are again all over again. And I'm once again saying I'm a lunatic and need help. that's hilarious.

Kingdra has one decent check....that would be a thing called "centralizing".

My main argument isn't even about kingdra. It's the fact you guys turned ou into a bl tier. You have 30 give or take pokes. That not only limited team building that you guys Saud was an issue before the split but now made it incredibly worse.

Metagross blissey snorlax gengar on about every team I face. Instead of rhydon jolt vap maro.

But I'm a lunatic?? I just stated what I have seen. Btw before the bans, mauville had 20+ battles going on, now it's a pathetic version of veridian. And if that doesn't matter, ok what was the point in breeding nerf and split? For new players to get closer and now we drove them all away.

And you can argue that doesn't matter. Ok, what am I supposed to do, breed heracross? Blaziken? All for them to get banned again and lose money. Edited February 20, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DoctorPBC]

Snorlax doesn't have an easier time coming in now????what???

And guess what you didn't try it With all 3. Mence was banned in .000004 seconds. So don't spill me that crap.

Kingdra gets walled easily by curse lax rofl. That's assuming it's at full health. And you named one poke that has a chance at it. One...

I'm sick of being be littled by you guys when one I was right before when you guys went on ban hammer frenzy and you guys will never admit it. And 2 you guys all said even with the split we prolly won't even have too ban a lot of pokes. But here we are again all over again. And I'm once again saying I'm a lunatic and need help. that's hilarious.

Kingdra has one decent check....that would be a thing called "centralizing".

My main argument isn't even about kingdra. It's the fact you guys turned ou into a bl tier. You have 30 give or take pokes. That not only limited team building that you guys Saud was an issue before the split but now made it incredibly worse.

Metagross blissey snorlax gengar on about every team I face. Instead of rhydon jolt vap maro.

But I'm a lunatic?? I just stated what I have seen. Btw before the bans, mauville had 20+ battles going on, now it's a pathetic version of veridian. And if that doesn't matter, ok what was the point in breeding nerf and split? For new players to get closer and now we drove them all away.

And you can argue that doesn't matter. Ok, what am I supposed to do, breed heracross? Blaziken? All for them to get banned again and lose money.

 

 

Dude just stop, seriously, I dont even fucking post here because I dont get half the bans.... but you uguuing and whining and complaining and spewing garbage doesnt change anything... it just makes you look like a tool.

 

Mence ban was justified, its more OP than dragonite and that got banned pretty quick too

 

Kingdra has like a bazillion decent checks

 

OU isnt BL, OU is OU and BL is BL...

 

Again wrong, ive faced plenty teams without either bliss or lax, and plenty without metagross (gengar ill give you)

 

You are a lunatic, Mauville had 20+ battles because NEW CONTENT, it has dwindled because it isnt shiny and new, not because they banned three things

 

You can do whatever you want

Edited February 20, 2015 by DoctorPBC

[Excelimpulse]

Dude just stop, seriously, I dont even fucking post here because I dont get half the bans.... but you uguuing and whining and complaining and spewing garbage doesnt change anything... it just makes you look like a tool.

Mence ban was justified, its more OP than dragonite and that got banned pretty quick too

Kingdra has like a bazillion decent checks

OU isnt BL, OU is OU and BL is BL...

Again wrong, ive faced plenty teams without either bliss or lax, and plenty without metagross (gengar ill give you)

You are a lunatic, Mauville had 20+ battles because NEW CONTENT, it has dwindled because it isnt shiny and new, not because they banned three things

You can do whatever you want

Name a check to kingdra if it's last poke?

Yes we added new content but you don't think they would stay if it was fun and competitive?

The whole point was to get them go stay.

And I'm not the type of person to just sit back and watch it fall apart again.

I don't see how anyone can say ou is balanced and a ou doesn't seem like a weak tier without the big 3 in it. I can see mence being banned but that's about it.

[DrCraig]

Name a check to kingdra if it's last poke?
Yes we added new content but you don't think they would stay if it was fun and competitive?
The whole point was to get them go stay.
And I'm not the type of person to just sit back and watch it fall apart again.
I don't see how anyone can say ou is balanced and a ou doesn't seem like a weak tier without the big 3 in it. I can see mence being banned but that's about it.

Nobody cares about your opinions on banned polemon. Nobody cares if you think the tier is falling apart. Nobody cares Excell, go derail another topic.

Check to Kingdra? Slowbro

[Excelimpulse]

Nobody cares about your opinions on banned polemon. Nobody cares if you think the tier is falling apart. Nobody cares Excell, go derail another topic.

Check to Kingdra? Slowbro

what is slowbro gonna do to it lol kingdra can set up just as fast.

And this thrread wasn't even being used. So I didn't derail it. And I wasn't even talking to you so plz dont respond to me. I could say the earth revolves around the sun and you would say I'm wrong. Edited February 21, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[BurntZebra]

what is slowbro gonna do to it lol kingdra can set up just as fast.

And this thrread wasn't even being used. So I didn't derail it. And I wasn't even talking to you so plz dont respond to me. I could say the earth revolves around the sun and you would say I'm wrong.

lmao what kind of argument is that? "wasn't even being used. so I didn't derail it." I'm sure german leader during world war 2 said something like "Poland isn't even being used so might as well invade it." Also slowbro can take on kingdra pretty well as long as it runs the right coverage moves, toxic/twave hurt non rest kingdra, psychic does a fair amount of damage to kingdra as well

Edited February 21, 2015 by BurntZebra

[DrCraig]

what is slowbro gonna do to it lol kingdra can set up just as fast.
And this thrread wasn't even being used. So I didn't derail it. And I wasn't even talking to you so plz dont respond to me. I could say the earth revolves around the sun and you would say I'm wrong.

Slowbro is a CHECK
CHECK CHECK CHECK

It can come in safely and twave cripple, or just damage with psychic.

CHECK CHECK

You were on a path to derailing the thread, come with legitment argument about viability rather than giving your view on the state of the current meta nobody gives a shit about. Edited February 21, 2015 by DrCraig

[RysPicz]

Anyways guys this argument is just pointless and leads you to nowhere except for losing nerves, let it go. Kingdra is nowhere near bannable and arguing about it's power and viablity without backing it up with usage stats, calcs or any raw evidence of it's power has no sense.

Edited February 21, 2015 by XelaKebert
Removed edited quote that was evading word filter

[codylramey]

Hyper offense seems REALLY fucking strong imo. Granted I have only been fighting people in mauville I was running a hyper offence team based around Flail gyara that had a macho brace on it (lol). Most of the time gyara wasnt even needed bc the other 5 hard hitters took care of everything. I did go against overtoast and loss, but RS flinch and macho was apart of the reason I loss.

 

Im not really saying much here just an observation i made today while fighting what is prolly noobs.

[ThinkNice]

Update:

 

Jolteon to B+ rank: Being the only thing that really forces Gyarados to go Jolly and with a great ability in Volt Absorb this guy is a pretty effective clean up. It gets a lot of free Subs and new found Swagger set is beyond annoying. Can even be a pinch supporter with its amazing speed. Still its very frail and his offense is limited. It doesn't help that his worst nemesis aka: Snorlax is a pretty dominant force in the metagame.

 

Arcanine to A rank: Intimidate is a blessing. It has great stats and is the only priority user in OU making it laugh at Salac users. It can go mixed, or support with instant healing. It deals very well with Heracross and Metagross, two very strong and prevalent Pokémon.

 

Snorlax to A rank: The king has been dethroned, but it doesn't give up and clenches on to a solid A rank. Being pretty much the only special wall with great offensive presence this obeasity is an excellent Pursuit-trapper. It walls well ands hits harder. The Curse set can be near unbeatable if used at the right time.

 

Dugtrio to B rank: It can still work, it just works less often. But it's still the best at its job; revenge killing.

 

Slowbro from A+ to A: With Heracross gaining more and more popularity and STAB Dragon Claws aren't flying around everytime Slowbro has lost some of its use.

 

Weezing to A rank: It already was a solid answer to Gyarados, but with the popularity of Heracross and being the only wall that can stop a setup Reversal hera it definitely deserves this rank.

 

Porygon2 to A rank: It can do a lot of things and it can do a lot of things well. Completely stops Gyarados in its tracks. It can threaten Slowbro and Gengar well. It can also deal with Flygon. Trace is just a wonderful ability.

[codylramey]

Arcanine to A rank: Intimidate is a blessing. It has great stats and is the only priority user in OU making it laugh at Salac users. It can go mixed, or support with instant healing. It deals very well with Heracross and Metagross, two very strong and prevalent Pokémon.

Omg i love it :')

[codylramey]

Double post to bring up metagross. I believe that metagross is prolly S ranked. I was going to w8 for updated usage stats b4 bringing him up but im bored. To me it seems like there is almost never a reason to not bring metagross. He hits hard and can tank hits like a champion. He has a respectable speed that allows him to outspeed most walls. Stab meteor mash scares anything that doesnt resist it and he has options such as tpunch and EQ to handle things that do. If you get a +1 atk against something that doesnt threaten metagross immediately (such as vaporeon who is a common switch in) the agility set can tear through much of an opponents team.

[Asunamaster12]

flygon for A rank because it has good dual STAB moves, good speed tier and was only ranked B+ since dragonite was still here.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Asunamaster12