OU Viability Thread

[DrCraig]

I would like to see some focus of discussion on these vouches:

Vaporeon, Forretress and Flygon for B+ rank.

Jolteon for A rank.

Metagross for S rank.

Gengar for S rank.

Slowbro for A+/S rank.

Gyarados for A+/S rank.

Gengar should be an S because of its variety. There are countless numbers of gengar sets which support, wall and attack. Until you know what set a gengar is running, it can be unpredictable, and tricky to play around. The lack of predictability because of its huge movepool imo makes it an S Rank.

 

Slowbro is probably the best physical wall we have right now which is a safe switch, has instant recovery (although not status recovery, and offensive pressure. Unless Slowbro checked or countered immediately it has free reign to regenerate health, and continue shelling out stab moves. Its defensive safe switches imo give it a place in S rank. I could also see it as a suitable A+ because of its great defensive characteristics, but need for a cleric.

 

 

I see Gyarados as an A+ because of the support it needs. It is very powerful, even forcing some pokes to run an unconventional hp electric. However, I don't think its offensive ability is S worthy due to the need to set up, despite bulk/ability.

[fredrichnietze]

Announcement:

 

Dragonite is placed in S rank.

Heracross is placed in A+ rank.

 

I would like to see some focus of discussion on these vouches:

Vaporeon, Forretress and Flygon for B+ rank.

Jolteon for A rank.

Metagross for S rank.

Gengar for S rank.

Slowbro for A+/S rank.

Gyarados for A+/S rank.

agreed with most things

 

gyara/bro =A+ imo. gyara is nice but dat 4xelectric weakness and no good flying attacks hurt. bro needs to be able to deal with status to be a S class wall.

 

gengar im a bit on the fence with. on one hand it's movepool makes people cry. on the other hand 4mss and pursuit meta is coming as soon as people can finish breeding/training.

[TheBloo]

subdisable gengar aint phazed by your lame ass pursuits.

 

 

gengar for master race.

gengar for s rank.

gengar for life.

Edited February 3, 2015 by TheBloo

[fredrichnietze]

subdisable gengar aint phazed by your lame ass pursuits.

 

 

gengar for master race.

gengar for s rank.

gengar for life.

but...........

4mss so how many things can it threaten? when 2x moves are sub/disable + whenever a pursuit poke comes in gar loses 25% hp or 18.75% with leftys.

[Frag]

Definitely metagross not rank s, agility is good but, you can't use it if u want to break slowbro, u have to get the +1 to kill it.  Also it can be revenge killed by magne and trio, low speed too i'd say A+.

[fredrichnietze]

frags agility set cant be trapped by dug/mag cause 

252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 165-195 (148.6 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 272-320 (173.2 - 203.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

and meta does have the option 

252+ Atk Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 216-255 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Edited February 3, 2015 by Tranzmaster

[ThinkNice]

Keep the thread clean please. Also about Gengar, I think it says a lot how it makes Pokémon carry Pursuit. Metagross and Heracross would carry Pursuit just for Gengar which you could call 'meta-defining'. It also messes up Slowbro really bad with STAB Shadow Ball, but I guess the same can be said about the rare Psychic on Slowbro (now that most have HP Electric). Excellent typing and sooo-- many sets it can potentially run. I would definitely rank it S because Gengar is a jack of all trades and unlike Pokémon like Cacturne, it is good at all of these trades.

 

More opinions would be appreciated.

[Frag]

 

do it! im ready

 

edit

frags agility set cant be trapped by dug/mag cause 

252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 165-195 (148.6 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 272-320 (173.2 - 203.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

and meta does have the option 

252+ Atk Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 216-255 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

 

ofc they can't, im just sayin that agility set isn't that good if you want go through ur opponent team with metagross, otherwise it will work only as dmg absorber, also explosion it's just 50/50 and u may lose a duel doing that.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Frag

[DrCraig]

Keep the thread clean please. Also about Gengar, I think it says a lot how it makes Pokémon carry Pursuit. Metagross and Heracross would carry Pursuit just for Gengar which you could call 'meta-defining'. It also messes up Slowbro really bad with STAB Shadow Ball, but I guess the same can be said about the rare Psychic on Slowbro (now that most have HP Electric). Excellent typing and sooo-- many sets it can potentially run. I would definitely rank it S because Gengar is a jack of all trades and unlike Pokémon like Cacturne, it is good at all of these trades.

 

More opinions would be appreciated.

This.

It has way too many sets, way too many options, and it is a menace unless you can figure out its set. It does not have 4mss, it has a set for all these combinations which is effective.

[DoubleJ]

With usage being released, any thoughts on the uu cut off percentage? Weezing and Forretress are getting high usage in ou with cloyster and steelix at a decent rate as well.

[DrCraig]

With usage being released, any thoughts on the uu cut off percentage? Weezing and Forretress are getting high usage in ou with cloyster and steelix at a decent rate as well.

Not enough usage was taken and I don't think a cut off should be made yet to be honest. Usages aren't fully showing strength imo. A lot more officials are coming, notabley like 3 this week. We'll probably have to wait before any usage tiering begins.

[Senile]

With usage being released, any thoughts on the uu cut off percentage? Weezing and Forretress are getting high usage in ou with cloyster and steelix at a decent rate as well.

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion topic; I'm not sure why you're posting this here. If anything, you should make a separate thread about this.

[ThinkNice]

With usage being released, any thoughts on the uu cut off percentage? Weezing and Forretress are getting high usage in ou with cloyster and steelix at a decent rate as well.

I have been calling around 6%, this is in no way an official number and I don't really have a statement to back up that number just a feeling; subjectivity.

 

If we use the calculation for a cutoff we got in the IV gen however we are looking at:

 

C = S x (1 - (0.5)^(1 / T)) / 6

 

C = cutoff

S = Sample size

T = Teams

 

and then take the collective OU usage stats, as I believe those are most relevant (which is another topic on its own):

 

anyways if S = 1766 and T = 274

We get a cutoff point of:

I have no idea my calc is fucking up.

 

Anyway this is indeed off topic I would suggest another topic as well.

 

edit: I think that gives us a cutoff point of 7,44%

Edited February 4, 2015 by ThinkNice

[Senile]

I have been calling around 6%, this is in no way an official number and I don't really have a statement to back up that number just a feeling; subjectivity.

 

If we use the calculation for a cutoff we got in the IV gen however we are looking at:

 

C = S x (1 - (0.5)^(1 / T)) / 6

 

C = cutoff

S = Sample size

T = Teams

 

and then take the collective OU usage stats, as I believe those are most relevant (which is another topic on its own):

 

anyways if S = 1766 and T = 274

We get a cutoff point of:

I have no idea my calc is fucking up.

 

Anyway this is indeed off topic I would suggest another topic as well.

 

edit: I think that gives us a cutoff point of 3,72%

I'm like 100% sure that T is supposed to not be the number of teams in the collected usage, but the number of teams a person expects to see per day on average. So, Smogon uses 20.

Also, x is actually a number; They use 0.5, AKA 50%, so their values are T = 20 and x = 0.5, with the value of S not actually being that important. Basically, what those values mean is that the formula determines at what usage % you can expect to see a pokemon 50% of the time in a random sample of 20 teams. Or something like that.

 

If you plug in those values, you get 3.41%, AKA what Smogon uses as a cutoff point.

[ThinkNice]

I'm like 100% sure that T is supposed to not be the number of teams in the collected usage, but the number of teams a person expects to see per day on average. So, Smogon uses 20.

Also, x is actually a number; They use 0.5, AKA 50%, so their values are T = 20 and x = 0.5, with the value of S not actually being that important. Basically, what those values mean is that the formula determines at what usage % you can expect to see a pokemon 50% of the time in a random sample of 20 teams. Or something like that.

 

If you plug in those values, you get 3.41%, AKA what Smogon uses as a cutoff point.

Yeah I reread the post and got that. But with our usage stats don't we get 5.01% from that? Also we'd have to determine what T is for the PokeMMO community.

[DrCraig]

Stop being noobs

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion topic; I'm not sure why you're posting this here. If anything, you should make a separate thread about this.

[DoubleJ]

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion topic; I'm not sure why you're posting this here. If anything, you should make a separate thread about this.

 

Waste of time and energy. It would also distract the community away from this topic even more by building an entire thread that would undoubtedly bring the attention back to UU. I probably could/should have just sent a PM to ThinkNice, but it's nice to see the public inclusion. 

 

I have been calling around 6%, this is in no way an official number and I don't really have a statement to back up that number just a feeling; subjectivity.

 

If we use the calculation for a cutoff we got in the IV gen however we are looking at:

 

C = S x (1 - (0.5)^(1 / T)) / 6

 

C = cutoff

S = Sample size

T = Teams

 

and then take the collective OU usage stats, as I believe those are most relevant (which is another topic on its own):

 

anyways if S = 1766 and T = 274

We get a cutoff point of:

I have no idea my calc is fucking up.

 

Anyway this is indeed off topic I would suggest another topic as well.

 

edit: I think that gives us a cutoff point of 7,44%

 

Thanks Think

 

JJ's Blanket OU Assessment

 

S Rank: Dragonite

 

A+ Rank: Gengar, Gyarados, Metagross

 

A Rank: Blaziken, Heracross, Skarmory, Slowbro, Snorlax

 

 

I can see Gengar being S with the recent discussion. It is honestly defining the meta and is single handedly keeping Snorlax usage somewhat low, in my opinion. Will-o-Wisp sets, SubPunch sets, and the ever present risk of SubDisable are dangerous threats to the big guy, as well as many other slower physical hitters (think Metagross and CB Dragonite). Players are being forced to find a way around Gengar in order to successfully use a physical sweeper. It's damn crafty.

 

I stand by my other statements though.

 

Gyarados is A+ for it's ability to sweep damn well with Dragon Dance. Without HP Electric Slowbro becomes set-up fodder when running into a Taunt set.

 

Metagross is A+ for it's ability to sweep with CB or the AgiliGross set. I wouldn't call it S though because it bulky waters can handle it quite well, even with Thunderpunch. 

 

Blaziken and Heracross pack an insane punch but require a decent amount of support to pull off their respective attacks. No less than A, but not as defining as the above mentioned pokes.

 

Slowbro is our best defensive wall and many teams need to design their sweepers around this guy, but unfortunately 4MSS and the need for hidden power electric to wall perfectly keeps him grounded. 

 

Skarmory is number one. 

 

Snorlax is the master of many movesets. Still very effective with Curse and even better with a Choice band. 

[themanone]

Where do you guys think kangaskhan would go in? It now has the elemental punches which allows it to beat skarmory.

[DrCraig]

Where do you guys think kangaskhan would go in? It now has the elemental punches which allows it to beat skarmory.

B imo

 

Crunch/Rest/Firepunch/return or something along those means

It has nice coverage, but it doesn't hit hard, and of course needs the support.

Kanga is probably a B because there are better options

[caughtem]

I'm going to suggest Ludicolo for B+ rank. Great typing leaves it with 2 difficult to exploit weaknesses. Ludicolo also gets some versatility to back up it's typing as both rain sweeper and bulky seeder I feel are both viable. In spite of this, Ludi does need a deal of support as the seeder set is defenseless against almost anything with grass typing(unless carrying ice beam)or substitute while the rain dance set is shut down by the common special walls. 

 

Just my thoughts

[Robofiend]

Where do you guys think kangaskhan would go in? It now has the elemental punches which allows it to beat skarmory.

 

So does everything? 

 

I'd go as low as C/C+ honestly, its base attack stat is really poor and its only real advantages over other physical attackers is good bulk and Fake Out.

 

 

I'm going to suggest Ludicolo for B+ rank. Great typing leaves it with 2 difficult to exploit weaknesses. Ludicolo also gets some versatility to back up it's typing as both rain sweeper and bulky seeder I feel are both viable. In spite of this, Ludi does need a deal of support as the seeder set is defenseless against almost anything with grass typing(unless carrying ice beam)or substitute while the rain dance set is shut down by the common special walls. 

 

Just my thoughts

 

 

I'd give Ludi a B, it's not as potent a special sponge as Snorlax, Blissey or Lanturn, but it does a good job of fulfilling niches like Leech Seeding and Rain Dancing.

[Mardav]

Guts swellow with facade an probably be considered a strong B+/A
Don't forget you can.breed pursuit on it and here's a quick calc while swellow is burned/ poisoned

252 Atk Guts Swellow Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 78-94 (57.7 - 69.6%) --guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 174-205 (44.1 -52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeh.

Edit: I just noticed for the first calc I used level fifties and for the second I used lvl hundreds. Idk if that affects percentages though.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Mardav

[londark]

Guts swellow with facade an probably be considered a strong B+/A
Don't forget you can.breed pursuit on it and here's a quick calc while swellow is burned/ poisoned

252 Atk Guts Swellow Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 78-94 (57.7 - 69.6%) --guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 174-205 (44.1 -52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeh.

 

Terrible coverage, mediocre attack and really needs a Status + CB to hit hard.....Any Steel or rock type walls it pretty bad...

[Mardav]

K lol I dunno I'm prolly biased cuz I used only swellow when I played emerald as a kid.

[YagamiNoir]

In regards to Swellow, well -- it's main set is status dependent, which makes it pretty high risk/high reward, given most of the switch ins it can pick off possible status from aren't reliable ones. Weezing's perhaps the only one I can think of for the moment, but then again it's considerably vulnerable to it's attacking moves as well. Picking up Guts pays off against more defensively orientated teams that rely on status, which admittedly aren't as common. Even then, Swellow can't really OHKO them with a Guts boosted Facade anyways, bar I suppose a few things that Swellow can actually hit pretty hard. 

 

Jolly Choice Band Guts Swellow 140 BP Facade vs. 252/252+ Weezing: 130-153 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Adamant Choice Band Guts Swellow 140 BP Facade vs. 252/252+ Vaporeon: 216-255 (91.5 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (Jolly fails) 

Adamant Choice Band Guts Swellow 140 BP Facade vs. 252/252+ Slowbro: 150-177 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Jolly Choice Band Guts Swellow Aerial Ace vs. 172/0 Gengar: 143-169 (91 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (kills uninvested variants)

Adamant Choice Band Guts Swellow 140 BP Facade vs. 160/0 Metagross: 87-103 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Running Adamant in order the secure certain OHKOes means it gets outpaced, albeit barely, by Gengar. 

 

Swellow's only other usable set apart from Choice Band is probably Sub/Endeavor, which dents pretty much everything to 1HP bar a Ghost, but it's not really a good set in general. As much as Magneton support can help it deal with Steel types to an extent, Swellow is really for when you can actually pick off status from something reliably and use it to your advantage, which personally happens less often than not, and given the reward for Guts isn't as good as one thinks it is unless everything on your opponent's team is extremely weakened, apart from the fact that it's also fodder for practically every common defensive Steel type as well. Swellow provides offensive synergy to teams that hate status bar TWave, but ultimately needs tons of support to actually clean up a match. Inconsistency in chances of status grabs also make it difficult for the bird to hit hard, and until it does, it's just an inferior revenge killer apart from the fact it outpaces Sceptile, Dugtrio and Alakazam, whilst foregoing Adamant misses on a few significant kills. It's got a lot of dilemmas, I guess. 

 

I'd vote for a C+ or a B- on this.