fredrichnietze Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Hmmmmm "not banworthy" per OU council --> no need for a suspect test ~Senile "Could use a suspect test" ~Robofiend Now let's find some consistency here. Either we close this thread because it honestly just isn't that big of a problem right now and the OU council has determined it that way, or we open a suspect thread and ban Snorlax for a predeterminate number of tournaments. until zebra got hired there were only 2 people on ou council and they disagreed. now there 3 but hes only been around like what? a week. stuff will happen when it happens which wont be long from now. Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Maybe because it doesn't deserve a ban? Link to comment
Robofiend Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 #bancurselax Not going to happen. Related: now's the time to voice your thoughts if you feel strongly about banning Snorlax or keeping it in OU Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) Repeat everything I've said before. Curse Snorlax is a problem in the meta. If you nubs refuse to make a complex ban, like you've done in the past, then I support a ban of Snorlax in OU. EDIT: Which would complete the shit tier that is OU. Edited April 4, 2015 by DoubleJ Kiliminati and jayfeatskydd 2 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) Not going to happen. Related: now's the time to voice your thoughts if you feel strongly about banning Snorlax or keeping it in OU Imo curselax is just op, if you're not running a metagross/rhydon then you're most likely going to get rekt. Forretress won't be able to do anything to an immunity curselax that is setting up. Skarmory will take up dmg while trying to phase it out (if fire punch) but once lax is the last pokemon, this will be a problem. With metagross, it's a more difficult situation if you're not carrying choice band and the lax is carrying fire punch. This makes Rhydon the one and only true counter. Weezing gets hit on the switch in and chances are that it gets paralyzed. This has been seen several times and with its lack of offensive presence it doesn't make weezing a counter either. Dusclops with haze is a nice way of dealing with curselax carrying fire punch instead of crunch. Sub disable gengars are quite nice but they don't technically force the lax to switch out so ultimately it could just lead to a pp stall. It's true that if you're running a very hyper offensive team, then that limits the chances of lax to come in. But not everyone should be forced to run a particular form of playstyle to deal with a particular pokemon. I'm all for a ban. Edited April 4, 2015 by NikhilR Link to comment
codylramey Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Curse lax is entirly too centralizing for the meta. You HAVE TO bring one or two things to counter it in order to be completely safe. The reason you cant just bring one is bc hax alone can very well kill one of your "Counters". Not much can actually come in on a cursing lax. Rhydon is hands down our best and most reliable snorlax counter, bulky heracross is pretty good too but can have a hard time coming in on Fire Punch, while curselax has no trouble coming in at all. He was the deciding factor in 3 of the matches last night. Thats just from what i saw. You can argue that the opponents just werent prepared but from what i saw both opponents had both a physical wall and a strong physical attacker. If that is not enough for a physical hitting special wall then there is something wrong with the pokemon. Unless you guys are planning on banning something elese i see absolutly no reason not to suspect test lax. Idk what the meta is going to look like whith him gone (Calm mind is going to be scary af imo) None of use do. But i would like to see the meta w/o him and then discuss which meta is better. Too bad smogon hasent come up with a system to allow for such things to happen. Oh whait... DoubleJ, pokypoku and Robofiend 3 Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Snorlsx still doesn't meet the ban criteria for a ban. It can't sweep easily, support is just gimmicky, and walling is just weak to every superpower to begin with. Based on the criteria I don't think it should be banned. Complaining about hax is like complaining about getting flinched from kingdra or guarados it happens. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Snorlsx still doesn't meet the ban criteria for a ban. It can't sweep easily, support is just gimmicky, and walling is just weak to every superpower to begin with. Based on the criteria I don't think it should be banned. Complaining about hax is like complaining about getting flinched from kingdra or guarados it happens. [spoiler] Yet another discussion thread that gets derailed by discussing terminology, or any other irrelevant banter. Like I said when someone is using words in the wrong way, tell them once and don't bother explaining over and over. As I see it I don't see Snorlax fitting in the three Uber criteria that we have. It can not sweep a large portion of the metagame with ease. It has a lot more difficulty setting up Curses and even when it has Curse stacks it is not guaranteed to sweep with the popular Bulky Gengar levitating about. It does not fit in the defensive characteristics for an Uber either, the shift to physical offense in the meta made this much harder for Snorlax. His only support move is Whirlwind, it does this okay, but does not fit into a lot of team archetypes. However, Snorlax gained some crucial tools with the last update, that keeps him an excellent pick above everything else. Even with the shift of focus to physical offense. It gained Selfdestruct, Fire Punch, Pursuit and Crunch. Making his Curse set even more terrifying. The absence of Tyranitar doesn't force Snorlax to choose for Earthquake either. A major plus for our obesity promoting Mc Donalds parody. This makes Snorlax a massive offensive threat, that has one thing going for it above all other offensive threats. His ability to switch in easily on most special attackers or walls/tanks.Again however, this still doesn't make Snorlax fall under any of the Uber characteristics, in my opinion. Be that as it may, there is still one other way to justify a ban in any tier. This is in regard to the health of the metagame. Does Snorlax influence the whole meta in a way no other Pokémon does, in a negative way? Things we can look at are: Is it too good not to use? Does it limit teambuilding? Does it force the metagame to stagnate, resulting in an unevolving metagame Does it's presence alone make certain archetypes/playstyles non-viable? We can argue weeks about this back and forth. These are highly subjective questions and there is no way to tell objectively who is right just from discussion. Some questions are also harder to answer than others, like 'Does it make the metagame stagnant?'. Well if you would test this, you would see the metagame evolving immediately, but this happens after every ban. The real question is, does it keep evolving for a long period in time, in a healthy way, after Snorlax is out of the way? A healthy metagame promotes every playstyle (in a perfect metagame they would be all as viable), variety is the result of this. A healthy metagame keeps evolving back and forth, with set A becoming popular first than set B being used to counter set A, people making set C to counter set B but it gets beat by set A, meaning all of them can be used, and the meta keeps evolving back and forth. There are many more things that point to a healthy metagame, I suggest everyone to read the Smogon thread about a healthy metagame. I agree with the OP on most points and it would be easier to read that, than I wasting my time trying to rephrase everything. So all of that aside, what do I think should be done? Well, I propose a suspect ban for a period of like two months. There should be another thread opened called '[Suspect Test] Snorlax' that discusses the metagame without and with Snorlax. This is the only way to really 'test' to see if Snorlax is, or is not, healthy for the metagame. If it is not, than there you have it, a justification to ban it. The only 'downside' to this is that: you can't ban anything else in OU for as long as the suspect test is going on. [/spoiler] DrCraig 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Snorlsx still doesn't meet the ban criteria for a ban. It can't sweep easily, support is just gimmicky, and walling is just weak to every superpower to begin with. Based on the criteria I don't think it should be banned. Complaining about hax is like complaining about getting flinched from kingdra or guarados it happens. Look at you, using the Uber characteristics in your argument. Impressive, bro. Think is right, though - there's still the "unhealthy for the meta" argument which I think lax fits under the most. I'd be in favor of testing things without him for a month Robofiend, DrCraig and Kiliminati 3 Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Look at you, using the Uber characteristics in your argument. Impressive, bro. Think is right, though - there's still the "unhealthy for the meta" argument which I think lax fits under the most. I'd be in favor of testing things without him for a month I'm trying, but isn't unhealthy just a point of view argument then we could always use? Link to comment
Gunthug Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I'm trying, but isn't unhealthy just a point of view argument then we could always use? Ehh, in my opinion unhealthy can only be used when a poke clearly has a massive influence on a meta (such as extremely high usage), and in a way that seems to be negative. However, think does a great job explaining in his post why "unhealthy" is a really hard thing to discuss, and that the only real way to determine for sure is to test the meta without the alleged unhealthy poke. Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Ehh, in my opinion unhealthy can only be used when a poke clearly has a massive influence on a meta (such as extremely high usage), and in a way that seems to be negative. However, think does a great job explaining in his post why "unhealthy" is a really hard thing to discuss, and that the only real way to determine for sure is to test the meta without the alleged unhealthy poke. Yes but if we're basing it off that, then why is gengar not suspected? My question is; if we do this, what makes any other poke different from being suspect tested with high usage? Like doing this and not doing it for others based on opinion will result in a lot of controversies and onlhy based on a select fews opinions. Imo giving the tier council to much power again. That's why I'm against this. Going down this road is very simikiar to the slippery slope. High usage is not a good argument cause if you look at scizor in gen 4-5 that thing was on every team. And never got banned and one could argue it did not let the meta adapt. and if you do a suspect test it becomes opinion based on bringing it back just like it is now. Which then can leave the meta stuck. I'm just saying doing this I think can lead to something that would break the ous back. But ou now imo is not broken with it. so others can view differently. Link to comment
DestructX Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (Calm mind is going to be scary af imo) Link to comment
Conscious Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) So from what i understand you people afraid Curselax. So my suggestion is to ban Curse move and not Snorlax. I didnt use Curselax so its not fair and i know i am not alone. Snorlax is important to our meta. I know my grammar pretty crappy but meh. Edited April 4, 2015 by Conscious Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 So from what i understand you people afraid Curselax. So my suggestion is to ban Curse move and not Snorlax. I didnt use Curselax so its not fair and i know i am not alone. Snorlax is important to our meta. I know my grammar pretty crappy but meh. A complex ban on curse is pretty much out of the question, as previously stated in the thread multiple times by multiple individuals. There are three options for the fate of snorlax. One is that it stays in OU for now because it doesn't really meet the uber requirements. The second option is that snorlax is "suspect tested" and banned for a pre-determined amount of time to see if its effect on the meta is truly banworthy. The third option is that the OU tier council (me, Robofiend, Senile) agree that snorlax is banworthy under one of the characteristics stated before. Link to comment
Conscious Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) Obviously Snorlax is the only best Curse user because its a normal type poke. Steelix is kinda meh weak to water, same thing with Torkoal, etc. I dont see any problem with Curse ban from our meta. Not really that complex. Same thing with that baton pass and torment move. Ban most problematic move right now which is curse and problem solved. Snorlax immunity ability alone worth to keep it on our meta. Edited April 4, 2015 by Conscious Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Obviously Snorlax is the only best Curse user because its a normal type poke. Steelix is kinda meh weak to water, same thing with Torkoal, etc. So i dont see any problem with Curse ban from our meta. Not that complex. There would only be a curse ban if curse was an uncompetitive move and all the pokemon that could learn curse, were broken/uncompetitive, such as the case of baton pass. As you clearly stated, curse is not an uncompetitive/OP move, so it should not be banned. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 So from what i understand you people afraid Curselax. So my suggestion is to ban Curse move and not Snorlax. I didnt use Curselax so its not fair and i know i am not alone. Snorlax is important to our meta. I know my grammar pretty crappy but meh. If you getting swept by a curse lax, your doing something wrong. The only way it's a threat is late game and the opponent has lost its counters. In that case it's like a dd sweeper or agility removing its counters. But you don't see people complaining about that right? Why, snorlax is on almost every team. So there is a very good chance it carrying curse to sweep or have bulk. But does that give it a reason for a ban? Snorlax, is literally our only special wall that can hit back And stop calm minds. But curse is very rarely an issue with two heavy hitters that carry superpower.But how is that an issue if our meta is mostly pphysical with or without snorlax. I still don't see alakazam espeon or starmie getting more use due to the amount of pokes with pursuit. So what does that leave us with? The lesser of the two evils. You either ban lax and see blissey on almost every team or keep snorlax and see both. It's a tough decision and right now I think it's more an issue of not having the viable pokes we need for the physical special split. But I still don't think high usage is a viable argument due to the amount of pokes we have access to along with it will always be a main argument. Link to comment
Conscious Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) The problem right now is Curse and not Snorlax. You getting wiped by curselax because of curse and not Snorlax. Repeat that thousand times on your head. @ Excelimpulse Edited April 4, 2015 by Conscious Link to comment
codylramey Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Ex wr arent just saying it has high usage plz ban. We are saying it has hig usage and is unhealthy for the meta. And we want to know if the meta w/o lax is healthier. Thats why we want a suspect test. If after the test show that the meta is healtjier w/o lax then we will ban if not we will bring back. I see nothing wrong with this and if you are so sure that you are right i dont see why you would have a problem with it either. Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Ex wr arent just saying it has high usage plz ban. We are saying it has hig usage and is unhealthy for the meta. And we want to know if the meta w/o lax is healthier. Thats why we want a suspect test. If after the test show that the meta is healtjier w/o lax then we will ban if not we will bring back. I see nothing wrong with this and if you are so sure that you are right i dont see why you would have a problem with it either. Why would I waste 2 months playing this game to see fat blobs on every team? You can say use other special walls but with the split normal is your best shot. And blissey and snorksx will be always 100% one of them on every team just because we lack other pokes. That's what I see is unhealthy. Instead of banning I would be pushing for the legendaries we need to have diverse teams. This whole thing that it's unhealthy meta won't adapt is thinking short term. Think long term. No matter what the fat blobs will always be there and will always hinder the shaping of the meta until we get new pokes and abilities along with moves. But until then I don't think it's viable argument because that's an opinion based if you think its heajthy and I don't. you can't prove what is and what isn't without stalling the shaping of the meta due to suspect bans. Link to comment
Conscious Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) I already know what our meta will looks like without Snorlax. Stalling fest with Toxic, Softboiled plus [ put special attack move here ] Blissey for 20 minutes per poke. Thats right. Sounds really fun. @cody Who cares if you boring to see this fat pokes everywhere, all people care is win and not to entertain you by bringing weird pokes like Kecleon. Edited April 4, 2015 by RacheLucario Please don't double post~ Link to comment
Senile Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 We're not banning Curse, and we're definitely not banning Curse on Snorlax, kek. If you want to know why, educate yourself. If for whatever reason you don't want to read that, read the section on Complex bans. If, for whatever reason, you're still insistent on banning Curse Snorlax, (or didn't even bother to read that section), I don't really have anything else to say other than "too bad". fredrichnietze 1 Link to comment
Shaniqualela Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 The problem with blissey as the main special wall is it's not nearly as offensive. Any cm sweepers with a recovery move can beat it, which forces blissey to run thunder wave/toxic or calm mind and cm along side the other Pokemon. And anything with sub cm pretty much just destroys it because blissey can't break their subs without seismic toss. It'll just lead to cm sweepers being insanely strong in the meta, and if you don't bring one you'll be time claused against blissey. But that's just what I THINK will happen. I'm not opposed to a suspect test and it'll be nice to see what happens. but I would strongly suggest that the council considers a complex ban on curse. I know they want everything to be very official like smogon, but this is not smogon, it is an unfinished game with tons and tons of missing stuff with a much smaller playerbase. Link to comment
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